<p>If this discussion were happening on an Ubuntu list because they were butthurt about a Fedora contributor joining their planet and put up a huge Fedora logo, I'd be having a damned fine laugh at their expense.</p>
<p>Instead, *we* come across as being butthurt about Ooboontoo. Plain and simple. Makes me sad.</p>
<p>The appropriateness discussion is one thing, and differentiating between personal and Fedora aggregations seems like a reasonable conversation to me.</p>
<p>But if we can't envision a situation in which a post with a gigantic ooboontoo logo might just belong on the Fedora planet from time to time, then I think we're being reactionary and insecure. And this isn't just Mo, either. I think a deep insecurity about ooboontoo has taken root.</p>
<p>We have millions and millions of users to support. We have those users because we're awesome. Do a good job supporting them, and a good job of telling those stories, and the rest will take of itself.</p>
<p>--g</p>
<p><blockquote type="cite">On Jun 18, 2010 9:54 AM, "Máirín Duffy" <<a href="mailto:duffy@fedoraproject.org">duffy@fedoraproject.org</a>> wrote:<br><br><p><font color="#500050">On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 10:36 -0500, inode0 wrote:</font></p>
<p><font color="#500050">> Seriously those days were not very long ago, I'm not talking about the<br>> dark ages.<br></font></p>Okay sorry for the confusion, I didn't know about the discussion you<br>
referenced or how long ago it happened. I made a compare-contrast<br>
between now and a long while back when our planet used to not be open<br>
and (I thought) of a less controversial nature with a higher quality of<br>
content.<br>
<p><font color="#500050"><br>> Agreed, being considerate of others it nice. Some will do that and<br>> some won't. It isn't a requi...</font></p>Yeah, I don't think we can make and enforce rules that people need to be<br>
considerate of each other. E.g., it's not a law in the US that you must<br>
be considerate of others and you won't get arrested for not being<br>
considerate. Such a thing would be ridiculous.<br>
<br>
But *culturally* I don't think considerateness should really be an<br>
option. I would really like to see our project with a strong culture<br>
where a lack of considerateness is strongly discouraged. How do we build<br>
that kind of culture?<br>
<br>
Here's one idea I have, feel free to dart it up / use it to build a<br>
better idea:<br>
<br>
- Have some basic guidelines about what's appropriate to post to planet<br>
and what's not appropriate to post to planet written up and linked to<br>
from the planet sidebar and/or footer.<br>
<br>
- Set up a private mailing list / ticket system / something where people<br>
can submit complaints about posts on planet.<br>
<br>
- If the post does seem to violate the guidelines, someone (I don't know<br>
who) contacts the poster directly letting them know about the guidelines<br>
and letting them know which guideline they violated and that their post<br>
had upset some people, asking them to consider filtering it from the<br>
planet.<br>
<br>
Limiting contact with the poster to one person (hopefully one less<br>
emotionally involved) rather than a deluge of complaints I think comes<br>
off as more friendly, and I think discussing the post in a friendly<br>
manner one-on-one is less confrontational. Overhead of a ticket system /<br>
someone to answer the tickets is an issue though.<br>
<br>
If you don't talk to the person how do you build the culture? I can see<br>
how you'd read this as policy=>enforcement, but I don't think the point<br>
is to hunt people down and punish them. I think the point is to build a<br>
better culture, and you can't do that by just plugging your ears and<br>
covering your eyes to things that aren't compatible with the culture<br>
you're trying to build.<br>
<p><font color="#500050"><br>> The line was pretty clearly drawn in my mind. Planet contributors can<br>> pretty much talk about an...</font></p>What are those constraints?<br>
<p><font color="#500050">> <br>> > But how about sexualized photos of scantily-clad women? I'm not cool<br>> > with that. Maybe som...</font></p>(I hope I'm not coming off too touchy on this subject b/c I'm female,<br>
and it probably goes without saying but I wanted to make it clear I'm<br>
totally not offended if you still disagree with me on the above point.)<br>
<br>
I would argue though just because they are seen every day on television,<br>
billboards, and in magazines doesn't mean they aren't a problem there as<br>
well. There are plenty of teenage girls killing themselves via anorexia<br>
or bulemia... I've heard of little girls ~8 years old telling people<br>
they are "on a diet."<br>
<br>
Also images like that aren't equally tolerated in every country / area.<br>
I know of a handful of popular magazines in particular that re-jigger<br>
their layouts and photo choices for publication in particular<br>
countries.<br>
<br>
That aside, I feel really strongly that if Planet has content that isn't<br>
work safe, something is wrong. There's a reason there are particular<br>
things that aren't considered appropriate at work - because the focus at<br>
work is supposed to be on work! Particular images are considered sexual<br>
harassment, because they support a culture where women are second-class<br>
citizens, and they incite negative emotional reactions in people making<br>
them less able to get their job done.<br>
<br>
So I would argue for planet content guidelines encouraging posts of a<br>
nature that would be appropriate to discuss with work colleagues - cute<br>
puppies, family ski trip, new cool phone - kosher. Your night out at the<br>
strip club or your allegiance to your company's competitor's products -<br>
probably not so smart to bring up at work.<br>
<p><font color="#500050"><br>> > To me it seems there are clearly classes of posts that aren't<br>> > acceptable.<br>> <br>> Sure. But an...</font></p>I have a really hi-res screen and that logo is still obnoxiously big.<br>
Maybe it wouldn't have bothered me as much if it was a reasonable<br>
size...<br>
<p><font color="#500050"><br>> > First of all, did you take a look at the link he provided? To me, it<br>> > appears to be a commer...</font></p>Well, the link did look less-than-innocent to me.<br>
<p><font color="#500050"><br>> > Secondly, are you criticizing me for bringing this up at all? How have I<br>> > been not excellent...</font></p>Of course and I believe the same about you :)<br>
<p><font color="#500050">> <br>> I do, however, think that all the high level emphasis and talk about<br>> hall monitoring, toxic a...</font></p>I think maybe though, you're putting a particular negative spin on it<br>
that isn't quite fair. E.g., if you look at the other side, if we don't<br>
do anything and just 'let it all hang out' - it seems like individuals<br>
don't always have the correct judgment in what to post, which leads to<br>
posts that contribute to a negative atmosphere around the project or<br>
even open source in general. Silence tends to be interpreted as an<br>
endorsement.<br>
<br>
For example, there is a very real misogynistic atmosphere around open<br>
source projects in general:<br>
<a href="http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Incidents" target="_blank">http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Incidents</a><br>
<br>
I'm really sad that Planet Fedora is cited there (although it's far from<br>
the worst incident on there, see<br>
<a href="http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk" target="_blank">http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk</a>)<br>
<br>
This kind of stuff goes on then we wonder why there aren't more women<br>
involved in open source....<br>
<br>
I think why we keep hemming and hawing about the issue here is because<br>
freedom is such an important value to our community, and anything<br>
appearing to be censorship evokes a visceral negative reaction. But<br>
please, let's also consider those whose freedom is being impinged on<br>
when we let people post whatever they want without any guidelines or<br>
consequences. For example, we have freedom of speech in the US, but we<br>
also have defamation laws....<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
~m<br>
</font><p><font color="#500050"><br>_______________________________________________<br>advisory-board mailing list<br>advisory-board@lists.fe...</font></p></blockquote></p>