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On 12/02/2010 12:18 AM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
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cite="mid:AANLkTimJJ=5hK-axx8FG9JdU32o6OUowZ9pKKD+z1G_T@mail.gmail.com"
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<pre wrap="">2010/12/1 "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:johannbg@gmail.com"><johannbg@gmail.com></a>:
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<pre wrap="">On 12/01/2010 10:32 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
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<pre wrap="">
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<pre wrap="">I say give all *DE all spins equal support from the community, give them
complete decision freedom on how they do things and how they ship them (
for example iso vs usb key image ) and let them decide their target
audience and the primary vision that the project has is to be that
platform of the choice with the best tools of the trades.
Not all have been treated equal here but that can certainly can be
changed and what's stopping us from doing that?
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<pre wrap="">
I am not sure what you are meaning? What I am reading is the following:
A) The community should be forced to work equally on all *DE's even if
they don't want to.
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Hows that different from the board trying to force one single vision
and one set of target audience with one desktop environment upon the
whole community?<br>
<br>
Anyway let's look your A)<br>
<br>
Up to a certain limit yes then from there on it's up to the *DE or
spins and the sub community surround them to take it to the next
level.<br>
<br>
For instance QA would make sure the spin work on basic level ( you
can install boot and establish a network connection ) , The design
team makes sure it's themes etc. are coherent. The docs team that
minimal documentation are in place and the marketing team that
minimal marketing material surrounding it are in place in essence
provide them with the same set of tools same set of presentation and
download option as everybody else and the minimal work and community
to get started and maintained in the infrastructure. <br>
<br>
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cite="mid:AANLkTimJJ=5hK-axx8FG9JdU32o6OUowZ9pKKD+z1G_T@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">B) Each sub-project should be able to do whatever they want and be
able to call what they did as Fedora whether anyone else would want to
call it that.
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</blockquote>
<br>
Hum not following you here but if I'm getting you right.. .<br>
<br>
For a sub community like spins ( or any other for that matter ) to
be able to grow and thrive you have to put faith in those that are
in charge and the freedom for them to do what they think is the best
for their target audience and those that want to participate in what
ever decision making they do will have to join their sub community
and participate through whatever community channel they decide to
use and follow what ever hierarchy model they have in place for
their sub community and the project in whole only to provide them
with the tools and guides and minimal set of basic rules in general
the means to do and of course equally present them all and give them
all the same download options if it's a sub community surrounding a
spin within the overall project .<br>
<br>
In pathetic attempt I'll simplify and try to explain how I see
things by giving you an example what my mind sees...<br>
<br>
The Gnome Desktop team through what ever decision making they have
in place has decide set the single family of novice end user as
their target audience running on their desktop notebooks and laptops
on a modern hardware and running only single OS on that hw. <br>
<br>
They do some research pick the apps they are going to ship and fill
in the gaps where needed and set the overall security policy aimed
at no more than four person working at most on the same OS on the
same hw sacrificing a bit of security vs usability.<br>
<br>
Now when they are doing that they realize that for them to deliver
the best end user experience to the end user they need not limit
themselves with the size and restrains of a single CD if they do
they have to cut out libreoffice, gimp solitare in essence and what
not which will cripple the end user experience they are aiming at so
they do some researching and find an economical friendlier reusable
and cheap solution 1 Gb USB Flash drive with the simplest install
method ever one big button that says INSTALL after all the novice
end user has no comprehension on what partition etc. is et all .<br>
<br>
In another corner of overall Fedora project..<br>
<br>
The server SIG is emerging stronger then ever with their set of
target audience sysadmins and since sysadmin generally is a smart
group of people they settle for the best scalable solution ever.
Fedora server images oh please that's so yesterday leave that crap
at home with other distro's nope no images that's right and they
will only be using <services>.ks files stored in git. Very
easy to maintain by the community. Leaves no bloat on mirrors and
easy testable by QA. All you need to as a sysadmin is to setup
cobbler server whether you are on your home network or on a
enterprise network and perform a git checkout
fedora-<service>.ks like for example fedora-lamp.ks and you
will install and setup a minimal secure performance tuned lamp
server for your task. Crippled point and click admin no need to
worry they have altered firstboot for that ( firstboot-fedora-lamp
) that will provide you with step guided next to next for your
fedora lamp server to provide you with the help to get you up and
running in no time.. <br>
<br>
Meanwhile Lightweight X11<span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size:
medium;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(102,
102, 102); font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
line-height: 20px;"></span></span> Desktop Environment groups is
defining it's target audience so they decide to be able to fit on a
single cd or 512Mb USB Flash drive and they decide to use
alternitive installer since Anaconda requires more resource then the
actual Lightweight X11<span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size:
medium;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(102,
102, 102); font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
line-height: 20px;"></span></span> Desktop Environment to run
and since they are so lightweight they decide to try to become the
desktop of choice for users on old and or refurbished redeployed
hardware and they like to release new updated iso every month to
prevent users from having to download equal to iso size or more just
after they installed the operating system in the form of updates. <br>
<br>
Three distinct SIG and notice three distinct set of target audience.
. . <br>
<br>
Then the Gnome Desktop SIG could work in peace ( from the overall
community or some all must follow this defined project vision ) to
follow its defined set of target audience. The community can then
just point those that dislike the Gnome Desktop to the Gnome Desktop
SIG communication channel and point them out that they should have
voiced in and participated in the discussion when the target
audience was being defined and at the same time Gnome Desktop SIG
can point to other spins SIG that might suite their need better such
as to the server SIG if you are a unhappy sysadmin or to the LXDE if
you need run something on older hardware thus an already exiting
user would not be leaving but relocating within the whole project. <br>
<br>
Now ask your self what happens if the overall project steps in and
demands of the Gnome SIG that it should only use CD sized images or
if the server SIG would be demanded to provide servers spins or if
LXDE would be forced to run support and run only on modern
hardware. Do you realize how much of that would twist and altered
everything for them?<br>
<br>
Ok so I'm going to try to come up with a summary of what I just
wrote which probably will be misunderstood and thus I will fail
miserably not the first and certainly not the last time that will
happen. <br>
<br>
All the community is made up from individuals that come from all
over the world and all are working in various places in the
community with such a diverse set of packages thus imposing a single
vision and single desktop environment is doomed to failure. It
worked fine when there where only two *DE no spins and couple of
thousand packages times have changed a lot since then. <br>
<br>
How many do you think have tried any of the other DE after they
tried the *Default* desktop and found out it did not work for them
vs how many deemed the Fedora project in whole a failure based on
their initial experience of the Gnome Desktop which they would not
have done if they had been using Fedora Gnome Desktop?<br>
<br>
Users would be more likely to try anything like another DE Fedora
has to offer since there is a difference between Fedora sucks and
Fedora Gnome sucks. <br>
<br>
With a new releng emerging it is time to get with the times move
Fedora Desktop to Fedora Gnome Desktop and drop Fedora "default"
spin and the concept with it altogether and bury the hatched that
has caused such a rift in the community with it.<br>
<br>
If we continue on this path we have to come up with more set of
rules and with what decides and how it's decided what is supposed to
be the *Default* desktop offering which will just cause more
friction in the community and yata yata yata.. <br>
<br>
JBG<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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