<div dir="ltr">For my $.02, embracing FOSS has always been a distinctive of Fedora. There are plenty of other distributions that have made compromises, but there is a strong core of our community that has stayed active here because of our commitment to FOSS. In my opinion, using non-FOSS is easy enough as is for people that decide to go that route. I'm not in favor of changing our stance on this.<br>
<br>Scott (vwbusguy)<br><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 2:12 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:advisory-board-request@lists.fedoraproject.org" target="_blank">advisory-board-request@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and<br>
non-free software (Jóhann B. Guđmundsson)<br>
2. Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and<br>
non-free software (Eric H. Christensen)<br>
3. Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and<br>
non-free software (inode0)<br>
4. Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and<br>
non-free software (Matthew Garrett)<br>
5. Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and<br>
non-free software (Adam Williamson)<br>
6. Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and<br>
non-free software (Eric H. Christensen)<br>
7. Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and<br>
non-free software (Adam Williamson)<br>
8. Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and<br>
non-free software (Jóhann B. Guđmundsson)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 21:14:47 +0000<br>
From: "Jóhann B. Guđmundsson" <<a href="mailto:johannbg@gmail.com">johannbg@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org">advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and<br>
non-free software<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:52DEE347.8050608@gmail.com">52DEE347.8050608@gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
<br>
On 01/21/2014 08:53 PM, Christian Schaller wrote:<br>
> In the end the main question for me is if we are prepared to trust the working groups to make the products they have been tasked with making,<br>
> or are we going to second guess them every step of the way?<br>
<br>
I think you should be more concerned if the community actually supports<br>
the next and wg effort then fesco breathing down yours and other wg's<br>
neck especially after such an attack on our foundation.<br>
<br>
JBG<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 16:23:55 -0500<br>
From: "Eric H. Christensen" <<a href="mailto:sparks@fedoraproject.org">sparks@fedoraproject.org</a>><br>
To: Fedora community advisory board<br>
<<a href="mailto:advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org">advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and<br>
non-free software<br>
Message-ID: <20140121212355.GF30387@localhost.localdomain><br>
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On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 03:53:41PM -0500, Christian Schaller wrote:<br>
> In the end the main question for me is if we are prepared to trust the working groups to make the products they have been tasked with making,<br>
> or are we going to second guess them every step of the way?<br>
<br>
Really? What you are asking is hardly "every step of the way". What you're asking for is a rewrite of the foundation for what the Project was founded. You worry about losing users because we don't make it easy to use non-FOSS software. I worry about losing contributors when you start changing the beliefs of the Project. In my opinion, you haven't provided a very good arguement as to why we should fundamentally change what we've stood for for the past ten years.<br>
<br>
- -- Eric<br>
<br>
- --------------------------------------------------<br>
Eric "Sparks" Christensen<br>
Fedora Project<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:sparks@fedoraproject.org">sparks@fedoraproject.org</a> - <a href="mailto:sparks@redhat.com">sparks@redhat.com</a><br>
097C 82C3 52DF C64A 50C2 E3A3 8076 ABDE 024B B3D1<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 15:34:52 -0600<br>
From: inode0 <<a href="mailto:inode0@gmail.com">inode0@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Fedora community advisory board<br>
<<a href="mailto:advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org">advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and<br>
non-free software<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAAHfup=<a href="mailto:4fbYHgQKZ70xrfosQPNbqXzzBhOwF1b7E-eq_PsHYuQ@mail.gmail.com">4fbYHgQKZ70xrfosQPNbqXzzBhOwF1b7E-eq_PsHYuQ@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Matthew Garrett <<a href="mailto:mjg59@srcf.ucam.org">mjg59@srcf.ucam.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 01:20:20PM -0500, Christian Schaller wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Ok, just to be sure I understood you, you want the metadata stored on<br>
>> a server and have it downloaded from there by the Software<br>
>> installation application as opposed to shipped on the ISO image? I<br>
>> don't have a problem with that.<br>
><br>
> No, I mean I want the metadata to be provided by the vendor and for the<br>
> user to obtain that metadata from the vendor. I don't want Fedora to<br>
> have anything to do with that metadata.<br>
<br>
Do you object to the app going out and obtaining the metadata from the<br>
vendor on behalf of the user after such time as the user opts-in in<br>
some fashion?<br>
<br>
/me isn't endorsing that solution, just wondering how people feel about it.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 21:38:07 +0000<br>
From: Matthew Garrett <<a href="mailto:mjg59@srcf.ucam.org">mjg59@srcf.ucam.org</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org">advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and<br>
non-free software<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:20140121213807.GA10809@srcf.ucam.org">20140121213807.GA10809@srcf.ucam.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 03:34:52PM -0600, inode0 wrote:<br>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Matthew Garrett <<a href="mailto:mjg59@srcf.ucam.org">mjg59@srcf.ucam.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > No, I mean I want the metadata to be provided by the vendor and for the<br>
> > user to obtain that metadata from the vendor. I don't want Fedora to<br>
> > have anything to do with that metadata.<br>
><br>
> Do you object to the app going out and obtaining the metadata from the<br>
> vendor on behalf of the user after such time as the user opts-in in<br>
> some fashion?<br>
<br>
Yes.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Matthew Garrett | <a href="mailto:mjg59@srcf.ucam.org">mjg59@srcf.ucam.org</a><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:53:29 -0800<br>
From: Adam Williamson <<a href="mailto:awilliam@redhat.com">awilliam@redhat.com</a>><br>
To: Fedora community advisory board<br>
<<a href="mailto:advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org">advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and<br>
non-free software<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:1390341209.26723.231.camel@adam.happyassassin.net">1390341209.26723.231.camel@adam.happyassassin.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"<br>
<br>
On Tue, 2014-01-21 at 13:37 -0500, Christian Schaller wrote:<br>
<br>
> Our influence with the rest of the world and promoting freedom rests on us having users and obviously the<br>
> way we have been building Fedora and the policies around Fedora used so far is not giving us that.<br>
<br>
This is the bit of the movie where the background music turns ominous<br>
and the hero is offered a choice: stick to his principles and tough it<br>
out, or accept the apparently small compromise in one little corner of<br>
his value set which will allow him to spread the rest of that value set<br>
to the world. Right?<br>
<br>
I think we've all seen how those movies end.<br>
<br>
I would like it on the record that I consider Fedora's current values -<br>
specifically, our *commitment to* (not just *preference for*) libre<br>
software - an immense social and technical good, I am strongly committed<br>
to those values, I am strongly opposed to this change (defined as 'any<br>
change which leads to the seamless availability of non-libre software in<br>
Fedora products'), and I might have to re-consider my work on Fedora if<br>
this change were to be approved.<br>
--<br>
Adam Williamson<br>
Fedora QA Community Monkey<br>
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net<br>
<a href="http://www.happyassassin.net" target="_blank">http://www.happyassassin.net</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 16:57:37 -0500<br>
From: "Eric H. Christensen" <<a href="mailto:sparks@fedoraproject.org">sparks@fedoraproject.org</a>><br>
To: Fedora community advisory board<br>
<<a href="mailto:advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org">advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and<br>
non-free software<br>
Message-ID: <20140121215737.GH30387@localhost.localdomain><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-action=pgp-signed<br>
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On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 01:53:29PM -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:<br>
> I would like it on the record that I consider Fedora's current values -<br>
> specifically, our *commitment to* (not just *preference for*) libre<br>
> software - an immense social and technical good, I am strongly committed<br>
> to those values, I am strongly opposed to this change (defined as 'any<br>
> change which leads to the seamless availability of non-libre software in<br>
> Fedora products'), and I might have to re-consider my work on Fedora if<br>
> this change were to be approved.<br>
<br>
+1<br>
<br>
- -- Eric<br>
<br>
- --------------------------------------------------<br>
Eric "Sparks" Christensen<br>
Fedora Project<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:sparks@fedoraproject.org">sparks@fedoraproject.org</a> - <a href="mailto:sparks@redhat.com">sparks@redhat.com</a><br>
097C 82C3 52DF C64A 50C2 E3A3 8076 ABDE 024B B3D1<br>
- --------------------------------------------------<br>
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<br>
Message: 7<br>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:58:58 -0800<br>
From: Adam Williamson <<a href="mailto:awilliam@redhat.com">awilliam@redhat.com</a>><br>
To: Fedora community advisory board<br>
<<a href="mailto:advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org">advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and<br>
non-free software<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:1390341538.26723.233.camel@adam.happyassassin.net">1390341538.26723.233.camel@adam.happyassassin.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"<br>
<br>
On Tue, 2014-01-21 at 13:09 -0800, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:<br>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 03:53:41PM -0500, Christian Schaller wrote:<br>
> > In the end the main question for me is if we are prepared to trust the working groups to make the products they have been tasked with making,<br>
> > or are we going to second guess them every step of the way?<br>
> ><br>
> Note -- this is a different question that has come to FESCo as well:<br>
><br>
> <a href="https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1195" target="_blank">https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1195</a><br>
><br>
> The answer there is that there will probably always be a degree of oversight<br>
> from FESCo over the Working Groups. In the short term, this oversight will<br>
> be much more intrusive and "get in the way" of what the working groups want<br>
> to do. As time goes on and decisions about what FESCo would like the<br>
> working groups to do independently of FESCo become more apparent there will<br>
> be less of these cases because FESCo and the Working Groups will have<br>
> sufficient cases to be more sure of the decision making boundaries.<br>
<br>
I'd also suggest that the degree of trust and licence given to the WGs<br>
by FESCo is natural going to depend on what they do with it.<br>
<br>
The fact that one of the earlier actions of this WG, before producing<br>
anything at all concrete, is to propose a drastic dilution of Fedora's<br>
founding principles...does not bode well for how much others involved in<br>
the project are likely to trust it to act without oversight in the<br>
future.<br>
--<br>
Adam Williamson<br>
Fedora QA Community Monkey<br>
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net<br>
<a href="http://www.happyassassin.net" target="_blank">http://www.happyassassin.net</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 8<br>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:10:02 +0000<br>
From: "Jóhann B. Guđmundsson" <<a href="mailto:johannbg@gmail.com">johannbg@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org">advisory-board@lists.fedoraproject.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and<br>
non-free software<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:52DEF03A.3060106@gmail.com">52DEF03A.3060106@gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
<br>
On 01/21/2014 09:23 PM, Eric H. Christensen wrote:<br>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>
> Hash: SHA512<br>
><br>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 03:53:41PM -0500, Christian Schaller wrote:<br>
>> >In the end the main question for me is if we are prepared to trust the working groups to make the products they have been tasked with making,<br>
>> >or are we going to second guess them every step of the way?<br>
> Really? What you are asking is hardly "every step of the way". What you're asking for is a rewrite of the foundation for what the Project was founded. You worry about losing users because we don't make it easy to use non-FOSS software. I worry about losing contributors when you start changing the beliefs of the Project. In my opinion, you haven't provided a very good arguement as to why we should fundamentally change what we've stood for for the past ten years.<br>
<br>
Let's not forget doing so for a new software installer integrated into a<br>
*single* desktop environment of those many we maintain and deliver into<br>
the hands of our end user base but it's good to know that the<br>
workstation wg has already *decide* which desktop environment is going<br>
to be representing which is as I had expected to be from the forming of<br>
the wg's...<br>
<br>
JBG<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
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End of advisory-board Digest, Vol 93, Issue 10<br>
**********************************************<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>