<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">2014-04-21 22:35 GMT+02:00 Josh Boyer <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jwboyer@fedoraproject.org" target="_blank">jwboyer@fedoraproject.org</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I think the problem I have with this well-intentioned thread is that<br>
it's a broad reaction to a specific issue we're trying to sort out<br>
right now. Webapps aren't new, the fact that a large portion of them<br>
aren't FOSS isn't new, and their usage in and interoperability with<br>
Fedora is not new.</blockquote><div></div></div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Oh no, all of this <i>is</i> actually new.<br><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">The change was so smooth and gradual that now, looking back, we see it as inevitable and natural; but compared to the 1995/2000-time era, it has been a <i>drastic</i> change.<br>
<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br>In the old days, everything was a local application, and networks existed but weren't all that convenient or useful[1]; so, having all local app<i></i>lications FOSS meant "full freedom" and "full control".<br>
<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Nowadays, for non-specialist "desktop" users, almost everything is a web app; besides the browser, only specialists use local applications (Photoshop, Eclipse, Maya, whatever)[2]. Having all local applications FOSS no longer makes that much of a difference, most of the software being executed is proprietary, or even if not proprietary, hosted elsewhere and therefore not under full control.<br>
<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br>If we take "FOSS" as a means to achieve some benefits (freedom from lock-in, privacy, control) and not a goal in itself, the situation has changed to such an extent that FOSS is not even close to giving the average desktop user the expected benefits.<br>
<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Over the past 10 years, even those of us only installing FOSS have ended up running an enormous amount of proprietary software. That's, in retrospect, a <i>completely unintuitive, unexpected and undesired result</i>[3], and keeping exactly the same means to achieve the desired benefits (again, freedom from lock-in, privacy, control) seems like sheer folly to me.<br>
<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">(Unfortunately, I don't know what should be the replacement. We can of course just keep the same foundations/means and just stop expecting the benefits, but that's kind of pointless.)<br>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"> Mirek<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">[1] Even in those times, email was tremendously useful, sure, but it was still a fairly extraordinary thing to use among an exclusive group of people.<br>
</div><div class="gmail_extra">[2] There still are local email clients and photo management programs... but even those now have web-based competition.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">[3] Or, well, perhaps this was all foreseeable and foreseen, and everyone just choose to ignore it... in which case I'm not sure that the Foundations or anything else matters all that much.<br>
</div></div>