<div class="gmail_quote">As a preface, this discussion took place during the open floor and no decisions were made on the issue. I cannot speak for the rest of FAmSCo, but I think we're still digesting and distilling the proposal, and subsequent discussion, into some sort of action.</div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 10:37 PM, inode0 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:inode0@gmail.com">inode0@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br>
> 13:35:30 <igorps> It is a good discussion, but somehow we also need opinion from the<br>
> Board members<br>
<br>
Why? What does the Board have to do with the budget?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't think the board has anything to do with budget, and while I don't want to speak for Igor, I believe the "opinion" in question is whether we need some sort of authority from the Board to approve a decision by FAmSCo to expand FAmSCo's scope to include non-ambassador funding -- if that's what we choose to pursue (and again, this discussion took place during Open Floor, at which time we were just getting a sense of how we, as a group, wanted to proceed). The Board just might want to have is some say in making an approval on this decision because, unless you can point it out, I can't find any precedent or authority that FAmSCo can make the decision to give itself this power on its own. If we are endowed with the power to make this kind of financial decision unilaterally, then I think that can be arranged. And I think FAmSCo should authorize the purchase of a Lear jet for every member, while we're at it, if we're allowed to make such decisions on our own. Obviously you can see where the Board might have a problem with that.</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br>
> 13:35:38 <liknus> obviously we can choose to accept or not a role (or even take part in<br>
> forming it)<br>
> 13:36:03 <liknus> but right now we do *not* have a proposal officially made (board, some<br>
> SCo, a person etc)<br>
<br>
I made something of a proposal as a community member, David Nalley<br>
previously made a proposal as well.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think David's proposal was far more clear, and it's somewhat unfortunate that David's wasn't acted upon by the last FAmSCo group. I'd be interested to know in more detail why it didn't fly and what hang-ups we can avoid going forward.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Even though a proposal from FAmSCo will not agree with my proposal I</blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
welcome your initiative to make a more formal statement of your<br>
willingness to accept an expanded role if that is what you want to do.<br>
Getting options on the table will lead to this getting resolved sooner<br>
one way or another and until it is resolved we can't all get behind<br>
whatever decision we end up with to move ahead constructively.<br>
<br><br>
> 13:38:46 <liknus> yn1v, what is the alternative ? To elect a new body? (besides FAmSCo is<br>
> the body that is elected by most members in Fedora)<br>
<br>
I guess you did not read the proposal I made that began this discussion.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think he did. I think we all did -- all 742 words. To be honest, I thought it was very hard to follow, and English is my first language. In addition, I thought it was contradictory in places, which I find to be hurdles moreso than roadblocks (see below).</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br><br>
> 13:40:30 <igorps> liknus: maybe people are not just aware of board tasks<br>
<br>
If the board is making budget decisions people certainly are not aware of it.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Again, I don't want to speak for Igor, but what I think is in question here, or at least how I took this, is that the "tasks" of the board in question, again, is having the authority to check off on expanding the scope of FAmSCo to allow it to fund non-ambassador projects. </div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br>
> 13:40:32 <gbraad-china> agree with lcafiero<br>
> 13:40:33 <lcafiero> I think John Rose is throwing up unnecessary roadblocks, IMO<br>
<br>
Personally insulting me is not helpful to anything Larry. I gave the<br>
reasons I brought this up in my email and how one proposal for how to<br>
transfer budget work from the Red Hat Community Architecture team to<br>
the Fedora Project can be viewed as a roadblock boggles my mind.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>"Roadblocks" was not the right word here. "Hurdles" was probably a better choice, but at 6 a.m. on Saturday morning, I am not at my most eloquent. Here's an example of what I consider a hurdle: In your original posting, you say this:</div>
<div><br></div><div>"A<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; ">fter
much discussion with new and old friends from around the world</span></div><span style="color: black; ">
<span class="apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; ">at FUDCon Tempe I've concluded that</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; "> <span style="background-image:initial;
background-attachment:initial;background-origin: initial;background-clip: initial;
background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"></span></span><span class="il" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; "><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:
"Times New Roman";color:#222222;background:#FFFF88;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">FAmSCo</span></span></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"> </span></span><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">probably isn't going to be</span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
AR-SA"><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">the best place for non-ambassador budget decisions
to happen as we</span><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">expand our efforts at increasing funding of
various new events (FADs</span><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">with explicit work product to be achieved for
example) as well as</span><br></span><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; ">non-event funding of efforts as they might arise."</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; "><br>
</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; ">Fine. To me that says FAmSCo is not the place for non-ambassador funding decisions to happen. </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; ">But later on in the same original post, you say this:</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; "><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; ">"</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; ">There
was a subtle suggestion at FADNA last year that we consider a</span></div><span style="color: black; ">
<span class="apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; ">new organization. I was resistant to this, I
thought</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; "> <span style="background-image:
initial;background-attachment:initial;background-origin: initial;background-clip: initial;
background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"></span></span><span class="il" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; "><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:
"Times New Roman";color:#222222;background:#FFFF88;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">FAmSCo</span></span></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"> </span></span><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">has stuff</span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
AR-SA"><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">in place and has experience dealing with budgets,
etc. Now after</span><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">talking to more people, especially
non-ambassadors, I think I was</span><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">wrong to be resistant. Now I think that if we can
modify our structure</span><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">a bit to encourage more engagement from more
contributors and have</span><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">those contributors be comfortable asking for funds
we should do it."</span></span></div><div class="gmail_quote"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_quote"><span style="color: black; "><span class="apple-style-span"></span></span><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial">So which is it? Is FAmSCo NOT "</font><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; ">going to be </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; ">the best place for non-ambassador budget decisions to happen," or "</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; ">if we can modify our structure </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; ">a bit to encourage more engagement from more contributors and have </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; ">those contributors be comfortable asking for funds we should do it"?</span></div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_quote"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial">I can play semantics all day, if necessary, but I'd prefer to take action to get this done.</font></div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_quote"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial">Also, I'm sorry if you feel insulted, however that's my opinion and I stand by it. </font></div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial"><br>
</font>
> 13:46:01 <lcafiero> To say, "I can't go to FAmSCo for funding -- I'm not an ambassador" is<br>
> not a good argument if that's the process.<br>
<br>
I don't really disagree with you on this, but the reality is that<br>
other people are offended by it and get quite animated about it. </blockquote><div><br></div><div>I find this hard to believe. If the process is: Go HERE for funding, and if someone is "offended" by having to go HERE to get funding for a project -- a reasonable following of what would probably (and hopefully) be a simple process -- then a.) maybe it's not important enough to him or her to get the funding, and/or b.) if he or she is that "offended" or "animated" by having to go through FAmSCo to get funding, is this the kind of person that Fedora wants representing it in what would potentially be a sponsored and public venue?</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">However FAmSCo wants to proceed I just ask that you be sensitive to<br>
the way non-ambassadors view (rightly or wrongly) FAmSCo and the<br>
ambassadors group because as Neville said this will be touchy for some<br>
while it will be of no concern to others.<br><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>So noted.</div><div><br></div><div>Larry Cafiero </div></div><br>