Hi Luke, this is Bill Buck writing you. I am the CEO of Genesi and subscribed to this mailing list. While I have had some contact with Gordon, I have never discussed any of these matters with you. I am certain you are not aware of our detailed plans or how your ambitions can be accommodated as we move ahead.<div>
<br></div><div>You are welcome to contact me directly.</div><div><br></div><div>Sincerely,</div><div>Bill<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:luke.leighton@gmail.com">luke.leighton@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class="im">On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Gordan Bobic <<a href="mailto:gordan@bobich.net">gordan@bobich.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> I suspect (it's just a guess, but an educated one) the panel they use is an<br>
> AUO (AU Optronics) B156HW01 or B156HW02. There are almost certainly several<br>
> interchangeable variants of each, with possibly slightly different LVDS plug<br>
> locations.<br>
><br>
> Here is a spec sheet for one of the variants:<br>
> <a href="http://www.yslcd.com.tw/docs/product/B156HW01%20V.3.pdf" target="_blank">www.yslcd.com.tw/docs/product/B156HW01%20V.3.pdf</a><br>
<br>
</div> leeme check.. ok, 7-20 volt LED power, that's good: that's quite a<br>
common standard. and it's a "double" LVDS, hmm, looks quite<br>
straightforward, just double up the LVDS ICs: SN75LVDS83b quantity 2<br>
should do the job. even needs two separate LVDS clocks. so, yeah.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
<br>
>> support as well as the high pricing. the second is that the OMAP4's<br>
>> DSP speed and capability has hit some sort of threshold which has<br>
>> resulted in a BXPA "weapons" classification being slapped on it.<br>
>> thus, even to get samples shipped outside of the U.S. or Europe now<br>
>> requires permission - and a license - on an individual case-by-case<br>
>> basis, from the U.S. or U.K government.<br>
><br>
> Really? I had no idea. So how does the Pandaboard get around the issue?<br>
<br>
</div> presumably by being designed in the EU or USA and only sold *to*<br>
people in the EU or USA. wouldn't it be a hoot if someone forgot to<br>
tell the sales teams that the CPU was export-restricted, and TI got<br>
prosecuted :)<br>
<div class="im"><br>
>> so, yes, you _could_ base a design around the (vanilla) BBxM or even<br>
>> the Pandaboard, but... yyeah :)<br>
><br>
> I don't see any downsides of basing it on the Pandaboard, except:<br>
> 1) Low RAM amount<br>
> 2) Lack of LVDS module for the next month or three<br>
<br>
</div> yes. and you'll need a double-LVDS channel for that 1920x1080 LCD.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
>> now i _have_ been advised of another two CPUs - one is the nusmart<br>
>> 2816 and the other is the ziilabs ZMS-08. the nice thing about the<br>
>> ZMS-08 is that it is *already* available in a "system-on-module"<br>
>> format:<br>
>> <a href="http://www.ziilabs.com/products/platforms/zms08som.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.ziilabs.com/products/platforms/zms08som.aspx</a><br>
>><br>
>> use of this module would mean zero SO-DIMM development costs, meaning<br>
>> that all that would be required would be a motherboard, and that's<br>
>> only about $2k-$3k!<br>
><br>
> What is the CPU on that? Cortex could mean anything from Cortex M0 to Cortex<br>
> A9.<br>
<br>
</div> A8.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> And how would the RAM on that get expanded? How much RAM will the CPU<br>
> support?<br>
<br>
</div> 1gb (A8s support 1gb). the SoM (as it stands) can take 4 micron<br>
2gbit x16 ICs (hynix don't do a 2gbit x16 mobile DDR part).<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> I don't see anything about a cell vector processor listed in the spec.<br>
<br>
</div> no - and the reason for that is precisely because they DO NOT want<br>
people ringing up even _asking_ for "free" support as they believe it<br>
is a total waste of their time.<br>
<br>
their primary customers have been companies who are basically<br>
incompetent at software development, and expect to be spoon-fed full<br>
solutions, or they will go elsewhere. so creativelabs have developed<br>
ready-made (proprietary) OpenGL and MPEG proprietary libraries, and<br>
that keeps these drone-clone companies happy.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> If it<br>
> does have it, then that may well be a BAD thing - more transistors means<br>
> more watts, and the chances of any ARM Linux software using it any time soon<br>
> is pretty close to 0 (look how much uses SSE properly on x86, and that's<br>
> been around for over a decade, GCC still can't generate useful SSE code).<br>
><br>
> I'd stick with the _simplest_ possible Cortex A9 / PowerVR combo available.<br>
<br>
</div> there's the pandaboard, and that's... it.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> And I only say PowerVR because I'm not aware of more supportable<br>
> alternatives at the moment.<br>
<br>
</div> it's non-free, and... yes, hm.<br>
<br>
you're aiming for a market segment a bit higher than i have been<br>
planning. not that that rules out covering both, but i have some<br>
other markets that can be covered, and if the BOM comes to $300 that<br>
means a $600 to $800 price-tag, which is wayy outside of the consumer<br>
mass-market price range i'm also looking at.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
<br>
>>> Pandaboard: 1GB<br>
>><br>
>> POP - this will be eeexpensiiive.<br>
><br>
> $175/board doesn't sound that expensive in the grand scheme of things,<br>
> unless you are referring to other potential issues (e.g. import/export<br>
> licencing you mentioned).<br>
<br>
</div> i'm thinking and have been planning along the lines of a BOM *under*<br>
that cost of $175/board - just for that board!<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> Just out of interest (forgive me if the question is daft, I'm not all that<br>
> familiar how this segment of the market works) - is there a standard for the<br>
> way SODIMMs SoC modules are wired up?<br>
<br>
</div> noooo *sigh* :)<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> i.e. would you then be able to replace<br>
> the SODIMM on this custom mobo with another SODIMM SoC and expect it to<br>
> "just work" provided all the features are present? I'm guessing the chances<br>
> of this are less than 0.<br>
<br>
</div> _some_ designers have managed it. <a href="http://cogcomp.com" target="_blank">cogcomp.com</a>'s SoMs are all<br>
inter-compatible for example, and directinsight have an AM37xx board<br>
that's pin-compatible with their DM37xx board.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> I'm all for a project like this, but I suspect the volume will be quite low.<br>
> That means high unit cost, and in that case it makes more sense to aim for<br>
> the high end, since there is a higher chance of being competitive there. It<br>
> will be easier to come up with a very low power and adequate performance<br>
> 15.6in 1920x1080 laptop with 20 hours battery life for $1500 than a slightly<br>
> better 10in 1280x720 laptop that has to be competitive against the $350<br>
> offerings.<br>
><br>
> Having said all that, it may be worthwhile having a word with Genesi. They<br>
> are probably already working on the next gen of Efika MX.<br>
<br>
</div> i already asked. they already told me they had made their decisions<br>
(for the next generation) and were not in the slightest bit interested<br>
in changing their minds to expand the market opportunities for the new<br>
product.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> If you can stir up<br>
> enough interest in something like this (and I would definitely be interested<br>
> in something like what I've described unless the cost per unit ends up being<br>
> eyewateringly outrageous), then it would make a some sense to try to get an<br>
> established manufacturer on-board. Unless you have a very<br>
> commercial/competitive venture in mind.<br>
<br>
</div> i do.<br>
<br>
also - an established manufacturer is the absolute last thing that's<br>
needed. they will add a large markup/premium, apart from anything<br>
else. but think about this: ARM CPUs capable of running laptops have<br>
been available since early 2009 (and one or two even before that).<br>
you'd think that, by now, one of the "established" manufacturers would<br>
come up with the goods, neh? it doesn't take 6 months to put a design<br>
together if you've got the money, and they've got the money. so where<br>
_are_ these magic low-power, lower-cost high-end ARM and MIPS laptops,<br>
from the established manufacturers?<br>
<br>
look up the pegatron netbook, and also look up IBM's ARM-based<br>
"smartbook" (both have that looovely 1024x600 screen). and<br>
freescale's smartbook reference design. and several qualcomm-based<br>
1ghz smartbooks. etc. etc. etc. etc. they _just_ aren't delivering<br>
the goods, are usually GPL-violating (esp if from S.Asia), and are too<br>
expensive. oh, and usually have crap amounts of RAM or crap screen<br>
resolutions. dead from the neck up, in other words :)<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> Gordan<br>
><br>
> P.S.<br>
><br>
> I think we should take this off the list, unless a lot of others here want<br>
> to partake, since by my reckoning the Fedora related content in this is<br>
> becoming pretty close to 0.<br>
<br>
</div> :) feel free to subscribe to the arm-netbook list (cc'd here).<br>
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