I'm thinking of the bigger picture besides this submenu. Again, without literally watching every single dev change and being on the QA team how am I supposed to know everything that's changed.<div><br></div><div>"Oh btw in Fedora 18 you have to go to advanced boot options to boot an older kernel now. Yeah I know, we've been able to do this for 20 years now since the dawn of time but they think it's better for novice users this way."</div>
<div><br></div><div>Just 1 example of many things. You can't expect Fedora to be a distro that you can really settle and get "used to" when it's constantly changing.</div><div><br></div><div>I know this is the whole point of the whole distro, to be "bleeding edge" and have the latest technologies in our awesome distro.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Again, I go with a "If it aint broke don't fix it" mentality into things.</div><div><br></div><div>In my daily life I'm a sysadmin. Figuring out how to do something on RHEL 5 vs RHEL 6 vs CentOS 5 vs CentOS 6 vs Fedora 13 Fedora 14 Fedora 15 Fedora 16 Fedora 17 Fedora 18 and what's different between each and every single one is annoying in every day life at work.</div>
<div><br></div><div>"Oh yeah so dude on Fedora 17 they moved to systemd. That service command doesn't work the same way and neither does chkconfig either anymore. Sorry bro deal with it."</div><div><br></div>
<div>Dan</div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Elad Alfassa <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:elad@fedoraproject.org" target="_blank">elad@fedoraproject.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="im">On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Dan Mashal <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dan.mashal@gmail.com" target="_blank">dan.mashal@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
To further add to my previous email, don't forget about your core user base. Since you are aiming for the "novice user" what happens to the "expert/intermediate user base"?<div><br></div><div>Do you just neglect them and they just accept all the changes you make in order to make Fedora more "Novice friendly"? </div>
<div><br></div><div>So what happens to the guy that's been doing things the way it's been done for 10+ years and you change it on him and he has to relearn everything all over again?</div><div><br></div><div>You now just turned and intermediate/expert user into a novice user. I find that counterproductive.</div>
</blockquote></div><div>Oh really? I don't see how having a submenu for older kernel versions will make expert users need to "relearn" anything. <br></div><div><div class="h5"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><br></div><div>Just shedding a different way of thinking on the matter. I respect everyone's contributions I'm just making my own personal opinion and voice heard since that what is so awesome about this community is that I can say how I feel and contribute my opinion while it may not be taken as "Oh my god this guy is so right what were we thinking?" it's definitely something to think about.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Dan</div><div><div><div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 20, <a href="tel:2012" value="+9722012" target="_blank">2012</a> at 12:18 AM, Dan Mashal <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dan.mashal@gmail.com" target="_blank">dan.mashal@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br><div>Quote: "Simply because we want to make Fedora easier to use. For novice users, the kernel versions are just noise, they mean nothing, and probably cause a lot of confusion. Especially if they dual-boot, they wouldn't know what to choose, and might actually boot an older kernel regularly.<div>
<br>
Furthermore, you can always revert to the current behaviour by simply editing some configuration files."</div></div><div><br></div><div>If you wanted to make it easier for "novice users" then why do novice users have to do so much work out of the box to get stuff working? This is such a minor fix for "novice users". </div>
<div><br></div><div>"Novice users" use Ubuntu. Think about why. I understand that Ubuntu and Fedora have different "religious" philosophies but this is reality without getting too in the the actual "religion" of FOSS and the 4 foundations of Fedora.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Quote "Without release number? what if you have both Rawhide and 17 installed?<div><br>I think it should be Fedora $number"</div></div><div><br></div><div>So a "novice user" would have Rawhide installed? :)</div>
<div><br></div><div>A novice user just wants it to "work" "out of the box".</div><div><br></div><div>I mean it's really that simple.</div><div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Wed, Jun 20, <a href="tel:2012" value="+9722012" target="_blank">2012</a> at 12:09 AM, Elad Alfassa <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:elad@fedoraproject.org" target="_blank">elad@fedoraproject.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div>On Wed, Jun 20, <a href="tel:2012" value="+9722012" target="_blank">2012</a> at 5:08 AM, Dan Mashal <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dan.mashal@gmail.com" target="_blank">dan.mashal@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p>Personal opinion from a longtime fedora user:</p>
<p>1) Why do I have to go to a separate menu to choose a different kernel? Granted, I don't often have to choose an older or custom kernel but "If it ain't broke don't fix it."<br></p></blockquote></div>
<div>
Simply because we want to make Fedora easier to use. For novice users, the kernel versions are just noise, they mean nothing, and probably cause a lot of confusion. Especially if they dual-boot, they wouldn't know what to choose, and might actually boot an older kernel regularly.<br>
Furthermore, you can always revert to the current behaviour by simply editing some configuration files.<br></div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<p>
2) It should just be "Fedora".<br></p></blockquote></div><div>Without release number? what if you have both Rawhide and 17 installed?<br>I think it should be Fedora $number<br></div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<p>
3) I don't like the way the grub menu looks right now with or without the theme. I like the old text non ubuntu/debian looking grub menu but that's just the oldskool person in me talking. <br></p></blockquote></div>
<div>
Well, I like how it looks with the theme, but if you don't like it you could always make your own theme to make it look like you want, or talk with upstream grub and explain to them why you think the default doesn't look good.<br>
</div><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<p>EOF</p><span><font color="#888888">
<p>Dan</p></font></span><div><div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 19, <a href="tel:2012" value="+9722012" target="_blank">2012</a> 1:07 AM, "Elad Alfassa" <<a href="mailto:elad@fedoraproject.org" target="_blank">elad@fedoraproject.org</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Tue, Jun 19, <a href="tel:2012" value="+9722012" target="_blank">2012</a> at 10:21 AM, Máirín Duffy <<a href="mailto:duffy@fedoraproject.org" target="_blank">duffy@fedoraproject.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> Hi Elad,<br>
><br>
> On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 18:07 +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:<br>
>> refer to this thread in -devel:<br>
>> <a href="https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-June/168712.html" target="_blank">https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-June/168712.html</a><br>
>><br>
>> As I understand, by design, we wanted the older kernels to appear in<br>
>> the "Advanced options" menu, but right now, it breaks every time you<br>
>> run a kernel update.<br>
><br>
> Yeh, it definitely sounds like broken behavior. Maybe we should get<br>
> together with Josh Boyer and Peter Jones and see if we can't figure out<br>
> some way to have older kernels go under the submenu.<br>
><br>
>> Also, the string Fedora Linux is kinda wrong, cause the OS is called<br>
>> Fedora.<br>
>> It should be something like Fedora (with Linux kernel version here).<br>
><br>
>> What is the stand of the design team on this?<br>
><br>
> Well, fwiw, I think you're correct, it should just be 'Fedora' (Maybe<br>
> Fedora + $RELEASE_NUMBER) not 'Fedora Linux.' However, I think the<br>
> kernel versions should be in the submenu with, if I understand<br>
> correctly, the older kernels listed out, but the newest one should just<br>
> say Fedora. Is that too extreme?<br>
Sounds reasonable. Show kernel versions only when they are really needed.<br>
><br>
> ~m<br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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<br>
<br>
--<br>
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<br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr">
-Elad Alfassa.</div><br>
</font></span></div>
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