GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)

[Peter Hutterer]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 11:55:52AM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 06/17/2011 11:36 AM, Vít Ondruch wrote:
> > Dne 17.6.2011 11:14, Ralf Corsepius napsal(a):
> >> On 06/17/2011 10:56 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> >>> Adam Williamson wrote:
> >>>> This is a common misapprehension, but it's not true. The reason for the
> >>>> large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user
> >>>> research (yes, really!) and found that many people had significant
> >>>> trouble navigating the typical Windows / GNOME 2 nested menu system full
> >>>> of wide-but-short entries. They would lose levels in the nesting by
> >>>> moving the mouse a bit wrong. They would launch the wrong thing because
> >>>> the target area was too short. This was especially pronounced with poor
> >>>> pointing devices - particularly cheap trackpads on cheap laptops.
> >> Rest assured, it is not ... esp. on cheap trackpads on cheap laptops.
> 
> > The workflow is:
> > 1) Move the mouse to the to left corner (move is enough, you don't have
> > to click. You even can drag and drop through activities, so learn to not
> > click there.)
> Apart of the fact, "track pad click" are disabled by default in F15's 
> Gnome3 (IMO: silly - They are enabled in Ubuntu), the click isn't my point.
> 
> With Gnome3, if only using a mouse/trackpad/pointing device, you are 
> travelling very long distances on screen - Much longer distances than in 
> Gnome 2 - This is a problem with "cheap trackpads" (My F15 test system 
> is a cheap, 1st generation atom-based netbook)

IMO this is largely a problem with the current synaptics driver, not
necessarily with the trackpad. I've been too busy with other stuff to get
this fixed in a reasonable time but at least there are some patches upstream
that should make touchpads more useable again in the near future.

> > May be you are not following the development of other desktops, but for
> > example Windows 7 has the same principle.
> Correct. I am not using Windows nor Mac OS X.
> 
> > Open the start menu, type the
> > application name and the filtered list appears. The only difference that
> > windows shows by default icons of most favorite applications where in
> > Gnome 3 you have pin them. But this is more or less similar to W7
> > taskbar on the other hand.
> >
> > So in conclusion it is not that surprising at the end, that W7 and G3
> > are pretty similar. Also the icons are getting bigger on both platforms.
> Well, it's obvious to me Gnome 3 is trying to immitate W7, OS X and iOS, 
> but ... may-be you may want to think about why users are not using these 
> and are using Linux instead?

Trying to merge an argument about Linux vs proprietary systems with an 
argument about desktop environments is risky. There are plenty of people out
there that run Linux on servers but Win/OS X on their desktop. Desktop
environment design is not the prime motive for many users choosing Linux.

> One of the reasons used to be the Gnome2 DE being different from these 
> rsp. these other OSes not meeting this user's groups demands.
> 
> In other words: IMO, due the way Gnome3 is taking, Gnome 3 has thrown 
> away one of the key-advantages it had offered (and has become a W7 etc. 
> immitation cult) and thus has become non-interesting to at least some 
> Linux-users (e.g. me).

IMO the differences between GNOME 3, OS X and Win XP/Vista (sorry, I have
yet to try Win 7) are more pronounced than the differences between XP, OS 9
and GNOME 2 where the main difference seemed to be the theming and where the
task bar was located.

Just because some features are the same or similar doesn't make it
identical. For example, I have yet to hear claims that OS X is like Gnome
because it has a "Spaces" feature (virtual desktops).

> That said, IMO, Gnome 3 should be added a "classic" GUI-design, with 
> toplevel menus/cascaded, file-browser etc.
> 
> To me personally, Gnome 3 is the primary cause for currently evalutating 
> other distros and other DEs, and the primary (the secondary is systemd) 
> cause for not upgrading to Fedora 15.

GNOME 3 is a rather big change from a desktop environment that was largely
identical for years. After such a long time, trying to adjust to a different
workflow in so little time is optimistic. That's one of the key features -
GNOME 3 doesn't just try to make things pretty in a different way, it
encourages a new workflow.  I don't agree with some design decisions but so
far much of that is because my muscle memory gets in the way. Once that
problem goes away, I can actually start evaluating GNOME 3 for my purposes
and make a sensible decision on whether it's better or worse for me.

Remember how long it took for git to get from hated, complicated,
I-dont-know-how-to-use-it thingamagic to best thing since sliced bread?
(YMMV depending on your local bakery)
same thing, git forced a workflow change, not just a UI change.

Cheers,
  Peter