Proposal to reduce anti-bundling requirements

[Orion Poplawski]

On 09/12/2015 08:19 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
>
> Am 12.09.2015 um 16:09 schrieb Orion Poplawski:
>> On 09/11/2015 08:51 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>>
>>> Am 11.09.2015 um 23:09 schrieb Orion Poplawski:
>>>> What does Fedora users gain with "dnf
>>>> install rails" or "dnf install ipython" versus "gem install rails" and
>>>> "pip
>>>> install ipython"?
>>>
>>> a clean and maintainable installation over years instead a mess breaking
>>> sooner or later
>>
>> I'm sorry, but this seems like a bit of a knee jerk reaction.  Are pip
>> and gem that bad?  Certainly maybe just some bugs to fix?
>
> you even refuse trying to understand what i talk about

Reindl - can you please stop being to F'ing obnoxious all the F'ing 
time?  Maybe it's a language thing, but I'm really not refusing to do 
anything here.  I really am trying to understand this.

> it's not a matter if they are that bad from a sysadmin perspective, you
> lose the central management and can no longer guarantee that you have
> repeatable installations when you do exactly the same 3 days later on a
> production machine which was tested - you may get newer versions

Okay, I grant you the loss of central management thing and that sucks. 
But I'm afraid it may become a fact of life.

As for versions, at least with pip and gem you can request specific 
versions to be installed.  These tools are very much designed for 
repeatable installs with specific version requirements.  That's why so 
many upstreams insist on people using them - because they want you to 
have the same versions they test with.

And heck, with the stream of Fedora updates, you can also get different 
versions using yum/dnf.  Sure, we try not to break things with updates 
unlike upstreams that seem to have lost all concept of trying to 
maintain API/ABI stability.

> when i type "distribute-updates.sh" or "distribute-install.sh
> meta-package" i can be 100% sure in which state the destination ends

Yeah, it sucks when your workflow breaks, it really does and I feel your 
pain here.  However it seems that much of the focus has shifted from 
maintaining installs over the years to being able to spin up new systems 
to a given spec quickly.  Long ago I shifted away from doing upgrades to 
using kickstart + (cfengine -> puppet -> ansible) to do fresh installs 
of systems to given specifications.  I've found this much more 
maintainable, and even faster.

>> I am aware of the critical bug with pip currently on Fedora in that it
>> installs in the system python directories directly overwriting rpm
>> packages.  But hopefully we can get that fixed.  Although the fact that
>> this bug has been open for 5 years does not give me much hope:
>
> that is the worst case of all
>
> but you don't need such a bug when we talk over maintaining machines for
> many years, sooner or later you will have conflicts which happens als
> for rpm sometimes, with every additional package management you increase
> the probability
>
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=662034
>>
>> Although at least it looks like everyone (at least on the Fedora side)
>> is in favor, just no one to drive the work.
>
>
>


-- 
Orion Poplawski
Technical Manager                     303-415-9701 x222
NWRA/CoRA Division                    FAX: 303-415-9702
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