<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;">Isn't Hulk the copyrighted trademark?<br><br>--- On <b>Wed, 10/27/10, devel-request@lists.fedoraproject.org <i><devel-request@lists.fedoraproject.org></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: devel-request@lists.fedoraproject.org <devel-request@lists.fedoraproject.org><br>Subject: devel Digest, Vol 80, Issue 82<br>To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org<br>Date: Wednesday, October 27, 2010, 12:41 PM<br><br><div class="plainMail">Send devel mailing list submissions to<br> <a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org" href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a><br><br>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br> <a href="https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel"
target="_blank">https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel</a><br>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br> <a ymailto="mailto:devel-request@lists.fedoraproject.org" href="/mc/compose?to=devel-request@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel-request@lists.fedoraproject.org</a><br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br> <a ymailto="mailto:devel-owner@lists.fedoraproject.org" href="/mc/compose?to=devel-owner@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel-owner@lists.fedoraproject.org</a><br><br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of devel digest..."<br><br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Chris Adams)<br> 2. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Jason L Tibbitts III)<br> 3. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Micha?
Piotrowski)<br> 4. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Richard W.M. Jones)<br> 5. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Mike McGrath)<br> 6. Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with<br> external monitor (Matthew Garrett)<br> 7. Re: experimental systemd + initscripts repo (Bill Nottingham)<br> 8. Filled Seat on the Fedora Packaging Committee<br> (Tom "spot" Callaway)<br> 9. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Julian Aloofi)<br> 10. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Tom "spot" Callaway)<br> 11. Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with<br> external monitor (Fulko Hew)<br> 12. Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with<br> external monitor (Matthew
Garrett)<br> 13. Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with<br> external monitor (Fulko Hew)<br> 14. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Chris Adams)<br> 15. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Laurent Rineau)<br> 16. Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo meeting (2010-10-26) NEW<br> TIME! (Kevin Fenzi)<br><br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>Message: 1<br>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:27:07 -0500<br>From: Chris Adams <<a ymailto="mailto:cmadams@hiwaay.net" href="/mc/compose?to=cmadams@hiwaay.net">cmadams@hiwaay.net</a>><br>Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?<br>To: Development discussions related to Fedora<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org"
href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:20101027162707.GD11733@hiwaay.net" href="/mc/compose?to=20101027162707.GD11733@hiwaay.net">20101027162707.GD11733@hiwaay.net</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8<br><br>Once upon a time, Micha? Piotrowski <<a ymailto="mailto:mkkp4x4@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=mkkp4x4@gmail.com">mkkp4x4@gmail.com</a>> said:<br>> I visited fedoraproject.org site to visit "Fedora Project Wiki". Where<br>> is the link to the wiki? It's in page footer. Fedora wiki is<br>> _important_ source of information (is the only place known to me where<br>> I can find a link to the page when I can find a link to systemd git<br>> repo url :)) link should be visible.<br>> <br>> In any case, a new page looks very nice and modern :)<br><br>Well, I went to see what you are talking about, from a F13 system
with<br>Firefox 3.6.11, and the page is pretty garbled. There is something<br>about printing under the quotes near the top of the page (if I highlight<br>to copy I get a different block of text about "Printing made easy", and<br>there's a partially visible form field at the right that says<br>"rinters/Canon..."). Scrolling down, I've got another block about "A<br>worldwide community of friends" on top of "YOUR LIFE ON FEDORA".<br><br>Also, something about the layout makes it slow to scroll in Firefox (of<br>course, that's not hard to do).<br><br>I'm glad somebody is trying to make the site look better, but this is<br>not so good.<br>-- <br>Chris Adams <<a ymailto="mailto:cmadams@hiwaay.net" href="/mc/compose?to=cmadams@hiwaay.net">cmadams@hiwaay.net</a>><br>Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services<br>I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough
trouble.<br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 2<br>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:32:29 -0500<br>From: "Jason L Tibbitts III" <<a ymailto="mailto:tibbs@math.uh.edu" href="/mc/compose?to=tibbs@math.uh.edu">tibbs@math.uh.edu</a>><br>Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?<br>To: Development discussions related to Fedora<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org" href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:ufatyk7oaua.fsf@epithumia.math.uh.edu" href="/mc/compose?to=ufatyk7oaua.fsf@epithumia.math.uh.edu">ufatyk7oaua.fsf@epithumia.math.uh.edu</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8<br><br>>>>>> "MP" == Micha? Piotrowski <<a ymailto="mailto:mkkp4x4@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=mkkp4x4@gmail.com">mkkp4x4@gmail.com</a>> writes:<br><br>MP> Where is the link to the wiki? It's
in page footer.<br><br>Actually it's right at the top; click "Contributors". (I can't tell you<br>why it's called "Contributors" but clicking there takes you where you<br>want to go.)<br><br> - J<<br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 3<br>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:36:36 +0200<br>From: Micha? Piotrowski <<a ymailto="mailto:mkkp4x4@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=mkkp4x4@gmail.com">mkkp4x4@gmail.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?<br>To: Development discussions related to Fedora<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org" href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>Message-ID:<br> <AANLkTinnmVWtUu8GTJNb3y3fVcr8of2t1CKyS=<a ymailto="mailto:zjq-1h@mail.gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=zjq-1h@mail.gmail.com">zjq-1h@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=ISO-8859-2<br><br>2010/10/27 Jason L Tibbitts III <<a ymailto="mailto:tibbs@math.uh.edu" href="/mc/compose?to=tibbs@math.uh.edu">tibbs@math.uh.edu</a>>:<br>>>>>>> "MP" == Micha? Piotrowski <<a ymailto="mailto:mkkp4x4@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=mkkp4x4@gmail.com">mkkp4x4@gmail.com</a>> writes:<br>><br>> MP> Where is the link to the wiki? It's in page footer.<br>><br>> Actually it's right at the top; click "Contributors". ?(I can't tell you<br>> why it's called "Contributors" but clicking there takes you where you<br>> want to go.)<br><br>LOL :)<br><br>Indeed, I did not notice. I wonder why?<br><br>Kind regards,<br>Michal<br><br>><br>> ?- J<<br>> --<br>> devel mailing list<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org" href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a><br>> <a
href="https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel" target="_blank">https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel</a><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 4<br>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:37:15 +0100<br>From: "Richard W.M. Jones" <<a ymailto="mailto:rjones@redhat.com" href="/mc/compose?to=rjones@redhat.com">rjones@redhat.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?<br>To: Chris Adams <<a ymailto="mailto:cmadams@hiwaay.net" href="/mc/compose?to=cmadams@hiwaay.net">cmadams@hiwaay.net</a>>, Development discussions related<br> to Fedora <<a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org" href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:20101027163715.GA28834@amd.home.annexia.org"
href="/mc/compose?to=20101027163715.GA28834@amd.home.annexia.org">20101027163715.GA28834@amd.home.annexia.org</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8<br><br>On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:27:07AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:<br>> Once upon a time, Micha? Piotrowski <<a ymailto="mailto:mkkp4x4@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=mkkp4x4@gmail.com">mkkp4x4@gmail.com</a>> said:<br>> > I visited fedoraproject.org site to visit "Fedora Project Wiki". Where<br>> > is the link to the wiki? It's in page footer. Fedora wiki is<br>> > _important_ source of information (is the only place known to me where<br>> > I can find a link to the page when I can find a link to systemd git<br>> > repo url :)) link should be visible.<br>> > <br>> > In any case, a new page looks very nice and modern :)<br>> <br>> Well, I went to see what you are talking about, from a F13 system with<br>> Firefox 3.6.11, and the page
is pretty garbled.<br><br>And that picture of Paul Frields (I think) is pretty scary too :-)<br><br>Rich.<br><br>-- <br>Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat <a href="http://people.redhat.com/%7Erjones" target="_blank">http://people.redhat.com/~rjones</a><br>virt-p2v converts physical machines to virtual machines. Boot with a<br>live CD or over the network (PXE) and turn machines into Xen guests.<br><a href="http://et.redhat.com/%7Erjones/virt-p2v" target="_blank">http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-p2v</a><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 5<br>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:37:56 -0500 (CDT)<br>From: Mike McGrath <<a ymailto="mailto:mmcgrath@redhat.com" href="/mc/compose?to=mmcgrath@redhat.com">mmcgrath@redhat.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?<br>To: Development discussions related to Fedora<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org"
href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:alpine.LFD.2.00.1010271137210.19071@laptop1.mmcgrath.net" href="/mc/compose?to=alpine.LFD.2.00.1010271137210.19071@laptop1.mmcgrath.net">alpine.LFD.2.00.1010271137210.19071@laptop1.mmcgrath.net</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2"<br><br>On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Micha? Piotrowski wrote:<br><br>> 2010/10/27 Jason L Tibbitts III <<a ymailto="mailto:tibbs@math.uh.edu" href="/mc/compose?to=tibbs@math.uh.edu">tibbs@math.uh.edu</a>>:<br>> >>>>>> "MP" == Micha? Piotrowski <<a ymailto="mailto:mkkp4x4@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=mkkp4x4@gmail.com">mkkp4x4@gmail.com</a>> writes:<br>> ><br>> > MP> Where is the link to the wiki? It's in page footer.<br>> ><br>> > Actually it's right at the top; click "Contributors". ?(I can't tell you<br>> > why it's
called "Contributors" but clicking there takes you where you<br>> > want to go.)<br>><br>> LOL :)<br>><br>> Indeed, I did not notice. I wonder why?<br>><br><br>I might suggest... this is the completely wrong list to be discussing<br>this.<br><br><a href="https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/websites" target="_blank">https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/websites</a><br><br> -Mike<br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 6<br>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:01:39 +0100<br>From: Matthew Garrett <<a ymailto="mailto:mjg59@srcf.ucam.org" href="/mc/compose?to=mjg59@srcf.ucam.org">mjg59@srcf.ucam.org</a>><br>Subject: Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with<br> external monitor<br>To: Development discussions related to Fedora<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org"
href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:20101027170139.GA12192@srcf.ucam.org" href="/mc/compose?to=20101027170139.GA12192@srcf.ucam.org">20101027170139.GA12192@srcf.ucam.org</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br><br>On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:53:01AM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote:<br>> So I'm going to hijack this thread a little and ask if anyone can<br>> point me to a resource that can tell me (at the lowest level) what<br>> I need to interact with (what hardware bus I need to send messages on)<br>> to send the request for EDID info to a monitor and get the results<br>> so I can decode them. (I have the message format info, I just don't<br>> know where to send/receive the stuff.<br><br>/sys/class/drm/*/edid . You really don't want to do i2c from
userspace <br>if you can possibly avoid it.<br><br>-- <br>Matthew Garrett | <a ymailto="mailto:mjg59@srcf.ucam.org" href="/mc/compose?to=mjg59@srcf.ucam.org">mjg59@srcf.ucam.org</a><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 7<br>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:03:59 -0400<br>From: Bill Nottingham <<a ymailto="mailto:notting@redhat.com" href="/mc/compose?to=notting@redhat.com">notting@redhat.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: experimental systemd + initscripts repo<br>To: Development discussions related to Fedora<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org" href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:20101027170357.GC22263@nostromo.devel.redhat.com" href="/mc/compose?to=20101027170357.GC22263@nostromo.devel.redhat.com">20101027170357.GC22263@nostromo.devel.redhat.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br><br>Petr
Lautrbach (<a ymailto="mailto:plautrba@redhat.com" href="/mc/compose?to=plautrba@redhat.com">plautrba@redhat.com</a>) said: <br>> Since initscripts-legacy is complement to initscripts<br>> initscripts-legacy should have<br>> Requires: %{name} = %{version}-%{release}<br><br>Thanks, fixed in git.<br><br>Bill<br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 8<br>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:53:34 -0400<br>From: "Tom \"spot\" Callaway" <<a ymailto="mailto:tcallawa@redhat.com" href="/mc/compose?to=tcallawa@redhat.com">tcallawa@redhat.com</a>><br>Subject: Filled Seat on the Fedora Packaging Committee<br>To: <a ymailto="mailto:fedora-devel-announce@redhat.com" href="/mc/compose?to=fedora-devel-announce@redhat.com">fedora-devel-announce@redhat.com</a>, Discussion of RPM packaging<br> standards and practices for Fedora <<a ymailto="mailto:fedora-packaging@redhat.com"
href="/mc/compose?to=fedora-packaging@redhat.com">fedora-packaging@redhat.com</a>><br>Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:4CC8590E.4050801@redhat.com" href="/mc/compose?to=4CC8590E.4050801@redhat.com">4CC8590E.4050801@redhat.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br><br>The Fedora Packaging Committee has filled its open seat. James Antill<br>has accepted the invitation to help Fedora improve and expand our<br>Packaging Guidelines.<br><br>This was a difficult decision, as we had many interested (and qualified)<br>candidates, and I would encourage any of them to attend and participate<br>in our public IRC meetings.<br><br>The Fedora Packaging Committee meets on Freenode IRC, in<br>#fedora-meeting, every Wednesday at 1600 UTC.<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>~spot<br>_______________________________________________<br>devel-announce mailing list<br><a ymailto="mailto:devel-announce@lists.fedoraproject.org"
href="/mc/compose?to=devel-announce@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel-announce@lists.fedoraproject.org</a><br><a href="https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel-announce" target="_blank">https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel-announce</a><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 9<br>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:30:47 +0200<br>From: Julian Aloofi <<a ymailto="mailto:julian.fedoralists@googlemail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=julian.fedoralists@googlemail.com">julian.fedoralists@googlemail.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?<br>To: Development discussions related to Fedora<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org" href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>Message-ID: <1288200647.6833.1.camel@Julians-Notebook><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br>Am Mittwoch, den 27.10.2010, 17:37
+0100 schrieb Richard W.M. Jones:<br>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:27:07AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:<br>> > Once upon a time, Micha? Piotrowski <<a ymailto="mailto:mkkp4x4@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=mkkp4x4@gmail.com">mkkp4x4@gmail.com</a>> said:<br>> > > I visited fedoraproject.org site to visit "Fedora Project Wiki". Where<br>> > > is the link to the wiki? It's in page footer. Fedora wiki is<br>> > > _important_ source of information (is the only place known to me where<br>> > > I can find a link to the page when I can find a link to systemd git<br>> > > repo url :)) link should be visible.<br>> > > <br>> > > In any case, a new page looks very nice and modern :)<br>> > <br>> > Well, I went to see what you are talking about, from a F13 system with<br>> > Firefox 3.6.11, and the page is pretty garbled.<br>> <br>> And that picture of Paul Frields (I
think) is pretty scary too :-)<br>> <br>> Rich.<br>> <br>Ha! ;)<br>Regarding the displaying problem in Firefox, I had that as well first,<br>but reloading the page solved it for me.<br><br>Regards,<br>Julian<br>-------------- next part --------------<br>A non-text attachment was scrubbed...<br>Name: not available<br>Type: application/pgp-signature<br>Size: 198 bytes<br>Desc: This is a digitally signed message part<br>Url : <a href="http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/attachments/20101027/93bd53ff/attachment-0001.bin" target="_blank">http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/attachments/20101027/93bd53ff/attachment-0001.bin</a> <br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 10<br>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:34:21 -0400<br>From: "Tom \"spot\" Callaway" <<a ymailto="mailto:tcallawa@redhat.com" href="/mc/compose?to=tcallawa@redhat.com">tcallawa@redhat.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?<br>To:
Development discussions related to Fedora<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org" href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:4CC8629D.3080300@redhat.com" href="/mc/compose?to=4CC8629D.3080300@redhat.com">4CC8629D.3080300@redhat.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br><br>On 10/27/2010 01:30 PM, Julian Aloofi wrote:<br>> Am Mittwoch, den 27.10.2010, 17:37 +0100 schrieb Richard W.M. Jones:<br>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:27:07AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:<br>>>> Once upon a time, Micha? Piotrowski <<a ymailto="mailto:mkkp4x4@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=mkkp4x4@gmail.com">mkkp4x4@gmail.com</a>> said:<br>>>>> I visited fedoraproject.org site to visit "Fedora Project Wiki". Where<br>>>>> is the link to the wiki? It's in page footer. Fedora wiki is<br>>>>>
_important_ source of information (is the only place known to me where<br>>>>> I can find a link to the page when I can find a link to systemd git<br>>>>> repo url :)) link should be visible.<br>>>>><br>>>>> In any case, a new page looks very nice and modern :)<br>>>><br>>>> Well, I went to see what you are talking about, from a F13 system with<br>>>> Firefox 3.6.11, and the page is pretty garbled.<br>>><br>>> And that picture of Paul Frields (I think) is pretty scary too :-)<br>>><br>>> Rich.<br>>><br>> Ha! ;)<br>> Regarding the displaying problem in Firefox, I had that as well first,<br>> but reloading the page solved it for me.<br><br>Also, it is worth noting that the new website makes heavy use of<br>Javascript, so if you have NoScript (or equivalent) running, you'll not<br>get a good view of the site.
:)<br><br>~spot<br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 11<br>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:37:41 -0400<br>From: Fulko Hew <<a ymailto="mailto:fulko.hew@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=fulko.hew@gmail.com">fulko.hew@gmail.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with<br> external monitor<br>To: Development discussions related to Fedora<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org" href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>Message-ID:<br> <AANLkTi=oQrhiy=zMmB8xOA8HC+R6jXhsmomN=<a ymailto="mailto:Dpu4bwk@mail.gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=Dpu4bwk@mail.gmail.com">Dpu4bwk@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br><br>On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Matthew Garrett <<a ymailto="mailto:mjg59@srcf.ucam.org"
href="/mc/compose?to=mjg59@srcf.ucam.org">mjg59@srcf.ucam.org</a>>wrote:<br><br>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:53:01AM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote:<br>> > So I'm going to hijack this thread a little and ask if anyone can<br>> > point me to a resource that can tell me (at the lowest level) what<br>> > I need to interact with (what hardware bus I need to send messages on)<br>> > to send the request for EDID info to a monitor and get the results<br>> > so I can decode them. (I have the message format info, I just don't<br>> > know where to send/receive the stuff.<br>><br>> /sys/class/drm/*/edid . You really don't want to do i2c from userspace<br>> if you can possibly avoid it.<br>><br><br>But thats (unfortunately) exactly what I have to do because the device isn't<br>running Linux. :-(<br><br>I knew it was I2C, but on
what bus and 'how do I get there from here'?<br>It would have to be on the video interface/card(s) right?<br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <a href="http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/attachments/20101027/a5688aa0/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/attachments/20101027/a5688aa0/attachment-0001.html</a> <br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 12<br>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:59:02 +0100<br>From: Matthew Garrett <<a ymailto="mailto:mjg59@srcf.ucam.org" href="/mc/compose?to=mjg59@srcf.ucam.org">mjg59@srcf.ucam.org</a>><br>Subject: Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with<br> external monitor<br>To: Development discussions related to Fedora<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org"
href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:20101027175902.GA13244@srcf.ucam.org" href="/mc/compose?to=20101027175902.GA13244@srcf.ucam.org">20101027175902.GA13244@srcf.ucam.org</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br><br>On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 01:37:41PM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote:<br><br>> But thats (unfortunately) exactly what I have to do because the device<br>> isn't running Linux. :-(<br><br>Yeah, this probably isn't the right place to be asking, then.<br><br>> I knew it was I2C, but on what bus and 'how do I get there from here'?<br>> It would have to be on the video interface/card(s) right?<br><br>Right. Your GPU will typically have a per-output i2c bus, and EDID is in <br>an eeprom stored at a well-defined address on that.<br><br>-- <br>Matthew Garrett | <a
ymailto="mailto:mjg59@srcf.ucam.org" href="/mc/compose?to=mjg59@srcf.ucam.org">mjg59@srcf.ucam.org</a><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 13<br>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:18:16 -0400<br>From: Fulko Hew <<a ymailto="mailto:fulko.hew@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=fulko.hew@gmail.com">fulko.hew@gmail.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with<br> external monitor<br>To: Development discussions related to Fedora<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org" href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>Message-ID:<br> <AANLkTinfQThb26ZP2iGpBvhrT3B+<a ymailto="mailto:DKEsMNqpqi90G6Vq@mail.gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=DKEsMNqpqi90G6Vq@mail.gmail.com">DKEsMNqpqi90G6Vq@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br><br>On Wed, Oct
27, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Matthew Garrett <<a ymailto="mailto:mjg59@srcf.ucam.org" href="/mc/compose?to=mjg59@srcf.ucam.org">mjg59@srcf.ucam.org</a>>wrote:<br><br>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 01:37:41PM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote:<br>><br>> > But thats (unfortunately) exactly what I have to do because the device<br>> > isn't running Linux. :-(<br>><br>> Yeah, this probably isn't the right place to be asking, then.<br>><br><br>I thought I'd try to ask, because if some Linux developer could tell me<br>how/where<br>some app like xrandr gets the data, then I could figure out how to<br>accomplish<br>it on my equivalent system.<br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <a href="http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/attachments/20101027/061adf6b/attachment-0001.html"
target="_blank">http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/attachments/20101027/061adf6b/attachment-0001.html</a> <br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 14<br>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:22:40 -0500<br>From: Chris Adams <<a ymailto="mailto:cmadams@hiwaay.net" href="/mc/compose?to=cmadams@hiwaay.net">cmadams@hiwaay.net</a>><br>Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?<br>To: Tom spot Callaway <<a ymailto="mailto:tcallawa@redhat.com" href="/mc/compose?to=tcallawa@redhat.com">tcallawa@redhat.com</a>><br>Cc: Development discussions related to Fedora<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org" href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a>><br>Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:20101027182240.GE11733@hiwaay.net" href="/mc/compose?to=20101027182240.GE11733@hiwaay.net">20101027182240.GE11733@hiwaay.net</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii<br><br>Once upon a time, Tom spot Callaway <<a ymailto="mailto:tcallawa@redhat.com" href="/mc/compose?to=tcallawa@redhat.com">tcallawa@redhat.com</a>> said:<br>> Also, it is worth noting that the new website makes heavy use of<br>> Javascript, so if you have NoScript (or equivalent) running, you'll not<br>> get a good view of the site. :)<br><br>Yeah, apparently that was the problem I was seeing. Honestly, making a<br>site that looks broken with NoScript is a bad idea, especially for a<br>user base that probably has a higher-than-average number of Firefox<br>users (and probably mode advanced users that are likely to use things<br>like NoScript). Requiring JavaScript just to get the correct layout is<br>IMHO broken.<br>-- <br>Chris Adams <<a ymailto="mailto:cmadams@hiwaay.net" href="/mc/compose?to=cmadams@hiwaay.net">cmadams@hiwaay.net</a>><br>Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet
Services<br>I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.<br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 15<br>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 21:33:40 +0200<br>From: Laurent Rineau <<a ymailto="mailto:laurent.rineau__fedora@normalesup.org" href="/mc/compose?to=laurent.rineau__fedora@normalesup.org">laurent.rineau__fedora@normalesup.org</a>><br>Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?<br>To: <a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org" href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a><br>Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:201010272133.40615.laurent.rineau__fedora@normalesup.org" href="/mc/compose?to=201010272133.40615.laurent.rineau__fedora@normalesup.org">201010272133.40615.laurent.rineau__fedora@normalesup.org</a>><br>Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br>Le mercredi 27 octobre 2010 18:32:29, Jason L Tibbitts III a ?crit :<br>> >>>>> "MP"
== Micha? Piotrowski <<a ymailto="mailto:mkkp4x4@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=mkkp4x4@gmail.com">mkkp4x4@gmail.com</a>> writes:<br>> MP> Where is the link to the wiki? It's in page footer.<br>> <br>> Actually it's right at the top; click "Contributors". (I can't tell you<br>> why it's called "Contributors" but clicking there takes you where you<br>> want to go.)<br><br>With my setup, where fonts are bigger by default, I cannot see the link <br>"Contributors" (it is behind the div #site-content). I have to decrease the <br>font sizes to see it.<br><br>-- <br>Laurent Rineau<br><a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LaurentRineau" target="_blank">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LaurentRineau</a><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 16<br>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:41:06 -0600<br>From: Kevin Fenzi <<a ymailto="mailto:kevin@scrye.com"
href="/mc/compose?to=kevin@scrye.com">kevin@scrye.com</a>><br>Subject: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo meeting (2010-10-26) NEW<br> TIME!<br>To: <a ymailto="mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org" href="/mc/compose?to=devel@lists.fedoraproject.org">devel@lists.fedoraproject.org</a><br>Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:20101027134106.139c695a@ohm.scrye.com" href="/mc/compose?to=20101027134106.139c695a@ohm.scrye.com">20101027134106.139c695a@ohm.scrye.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br><br>===================================<br>#fedora-meeting: FESCO (2010-10-27)<br>===================================<br><br>Meeting started by nirik at 18:30:00 UTC. The full logs are available at<br><a href="http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2010-10-27/fesco.2010-10-27-18.30.log.html"
target="_blank">http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2010-10-27/fesco.2010-10-27-18.30.log.html</a><br><br>Meeting summary<br>---------------<br>* init process (nirik, 18:30:01)<br><br>* Updates policy / Vision implementation status (nirik, 18:36:20)<br> * LINK: <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy</a> (nirik,<br> 18:46:00)<br> * LINK:<br> <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kparal/Package_update_approaches" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kparal/Package_update_approaches</a><br> (cwickert, 18:46:52)<br> * LINK:<br> <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kparal/Proposal:Package_update_policy" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kparal/Proposal:Package_update_policy</a><br> (cwickert, 18:46:52)<br>
* LINK:<br> <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adamwill/Proposal:Package_update_policy" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adamwill/Proposal:Package_update_policy</a><br> (cwickert, 18:46:52)<br> * LINK:<br> <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_release_updates_vision_implementation_ideas" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_release_updates_vision_implementation_ideas</a><br> (cwickert, 18:46:59)<br> * LINK:<br> <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_acceptance_criteria" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_acceptance_criteria</a><br> (cwickert, 18:46:59)<br> * LINK: <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_release_updates_vision" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_release_updates_vision</a><br> (cwickert, 18:47:05)<br> *
LINK:<br> <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_acceptance_criteria#All_other_updates" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_acceptance_criteria#All_other_updates</a><br> is different from<br> <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy#All_other_updates" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy#All_other_updates</a><br> (cwickert, 18:51:02)<br> * ACTION: cwickert will work on new features repo ideas (nirik,<br> 19:00:51)<br> * ACTION: SMParrish will work on metrics (nirik, 19:00:59)<br><br>* #416 Set EOL Date For Fedora 12 (nirik, 19:01:03)<br> * AGREED: F12 eol will be 2010-12-02, moving forward eol dates will be<br> the nearest weekday to 1 month from release (nirik, 19:07:33)<br><br>* Elections coming up. (nirik, 19:08:21)<br> * LINK:<br>
<a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/SteeringCommittee/Nominations" target="_blank">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/SteeringCommittee/Nominations</a><br> (nirik, 19:10:16)<br><br>* Kudos for F14 release (nirik, 19:10:39)<br><br>* #480 F15Feature - RemoveSETUID (<br> <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RemoveSETUID" target="_blank">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RemoveSETUID</a> ) (nirik,<br> 19:15:16)<br> * AGREED: the feature is approved. (nirik, 19:26:46)<br><br>* Open Floor (nirik, 19:26:50)<br> * LINK: <a href="https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/4224" target="_blank">https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/4224</a> (abadger1999,<br> 19:27:32)<br><br>* break build inheritance between F14 and F15 and update deltarpm files<br> (nirik, 19:27:56)<br> * AGREED: Fesco is fine with the indicated plan
of mass tagging,<br> breaking inherit, and scrubbing old deltarpms for rawhide. (nirik,<br> 19:35:31)<br><br>* Open Floor (nirik, 19:36:53)<br><br>Meeting ended at 19:39:44 UTC.<br><br><br><br><br>Action Items<br>------------<br>* cwickert will work on new features repo ideas<br>* SMParrish will work on metrics<br><br><br><br><br>Action Items, by person<br>-----------------------<br>* cwickert<br> * cwickert will work on new features repo ideas<br>* SMParrish<br> * SMParrish will work on metrics<br>* **UNASSIGNED**<br> * (none)<br><br><br><br><br>People Present (lines said)<br>---------------------------<br>* nirik (115)<br>* cwickert (51)<br>* pjones (29)<br>* ajax (24)<br>* abadger1999 (17)<br>* notting (16)<br>* mclasen (14)<br>* mjg59 (14)<br>* zodbot (9)<br>* kylem (9)<br>* SMParrish (6)<br>* wwoods (6)<br>* Southern_Gentlem (3)<br>* adamw (1)<br>* rbergeron (1)<br>--<br>18:30:00 <nirik>
#startmeeting FESCO (2010-10-27)<br>18:30:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Oct 27 18:30:00 2010 UTC. The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at <a href="http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot" target="_blank">http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot</a>.<br>18:30:00 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.<br>18:30:01 <nirik> #meetingname fesco<br>18:30:01 <nirik> #chair mclasen notting nirik SMParrish kylem ajax pjones cwickert mjg59<br>18:30:01 <nirik> #topic init process<br>18:30:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'<br>18:30:01 <zodbot> Current chairs: SMParrish ajax cwickert kylem mclasen mjg59 nirik notting pjones<br>18:30:37 <pjones> yo.<br>18:30:39 <nirik> who all is around for meeting?<br>18:32:04 <pjones> just me and you I guess.<br>18:32:06 * notting is here<br>18:32:06 * nirik wonders if we have quorum today.<br>18:32:08 <pjones>
;)<br>18:32:10 <kylem> yo.<br>18:32:31 <pjones> mjg59 was around a few minutes ago.<br>18:34:11 * nirik waits a few to see if we get one more person for quorum<br>18:35:28 <mjg59> pjones: Hi<br>18:35:35 <mjg59> Sorry, briefly distracted<br>18:35:50 <nirik> cool. I think we can go ahead and get started.<br>18:36:01 <cwickert> am I late?<br>18:36:06 <nirik> cwickert: nope, just in time. ;)<br>18:36:09 <cwickert> ;)<br>18:36:13 <mjg59> cwickert: Fashionably so<br>18:36:20 <nirik> #topic Updates policy / Vision implementation status<br>18:36:20 <nirik> .fesco 351<br>18:36:20 <nirik> .fesco 382<br>18:36:22 <zodbot> nirik: #351 (Create a policy for updates) - FESCo - Trac - <a href="https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/351" target="_blank">https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/351</a><br>18:36:26 <zodbot> nirik: #382 (Implementing Stable Release Vision) - FESCo - Trac - <a
href="https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/382" target="_blank">https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/382</a><br>18:36:31 <nirik> SMParrish was going to look at more stats stuff.<br>18:36:38 <nirik> Also, I talked with lmacken about bodhi stats.<br>18:37:08 <nirik> He was going to generate them for us so we could see what was in them, and also try and do a 'pre release' 'post release' split for f14<br>18:37:32 <nirik> the next bodhi version will allow (I think) running them from cron/regularly.<br>18:38:21 <nirik> It seems like we are not making much progress to finishing this up. Anyone have ideas on how we could finish things before next elections?<br>18:38:32 * SMParrish sorry I'm late.<br>18:39:01 <SMParrish> nirik: was travelling last week. just got home yesterday and have not had time to work on the metrics issue<br>18:39:14 <nirik> ok.<br>18:39:18 <cwickert> I think we still suffer from unclear
board statements<br>18:39:33 <pjones> cwickert: I think we're always going to suffer from that<br>18:39:52 <pjones> we should just interpret them as best we can and if that's really something they didn't want then we do it again :/<br>18:39:55 <cwickert> I was talking to some board members and they were not happy with the "only security and bugfixes" thing ether<br>18:40:42 <notting> and...? internal board politics are a matter for the board.<br>18:41:19 <mjg59> The board's statement explicitly says " Stable releases should provide a consistent user experience throughout the lifecycle, and only fix bugs and security issues. "<br>18:41:22 <nirik> I'd really like to see us try the current policy for a bit. It may be too conservative, but we can adjust it if so down the road.<br>18:41:42 <nirik> we also were going to look into a 'new features' repo.<br>18:42:46 <nirik> perhaps we could set action items and
people on the remaining tasks?<br>18:42:58 <nirik> SMParrish: work with lmacken on metrics ?<br>18:43:08 <cwickert> speaking of that, I was supposed to write a propsal on the new-features repo<br>18:43:19 <nirik> cwickert: yeah.<br>18:43:24 <kylem> i think this is mostly just a reflection fo the project as a whole, looking at #fedora-dveel you'd be hard pressed to find unilateral agreement on the interpretation of our vision.<br>18:43:58 <SMParrish> nirik: yes i will get with lmacken on the metrics issue<br>18:44:02 <pjones> nirik: yeah, I'm with you in that we need more observation to see what we've done.<br>18:44:03 <cwickert> i have two problems: it is hard to find the status quo as there are a lot of outdated update-something pages in the wiki now<br>18:44:25 <nirik> we should nuke or redirect the old ones to the current one.<br>18:44:30 <pjones> yep<br>18:44:40 <cwickert> the second
problem is: two weeks ago a lot of questions were raised in the meeting<br>18:44:48 <cwickert> but they have not made it into the wiki<br>18:45:13 <nirik> questions on the new feature repo? or ?<br>18:45:19 <cwickert> ys<br>18:45:21 <cwickert> yes<br>18:45:33 <cwickert> how things work in bodhi and all that<br>18:45:46 <cwickert> but they are not on <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Stable_release_updates_vision_implementation_ideas" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Stable_release_updates_vision_implementation_ideas</a><br>18:46:00 <cwickert> I guess I'll have to dig in the meeting logs<br>18:46:00 <nirik> <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy</a><br>18:46:25 <nirik> that should be the page maintainers look at/follow.<br>18:46:51 <cwickert> there is a few more<br>18:46:52
<cwickert> <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kparal/Package_update_approaches" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kparal/Package_update_approaches</a><br>18:46:52 <cwickert> <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kparal/Proposal:Package_update_policy" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kparal/Proposal:Package_update_policy</a><br>18:46:52 <cwickert> <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adamwill/Proposal:Package_update_policy" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adamwill/Proposal:Package_update_policy</a><br>18:46:59 <cwickert> <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_release_updates_vision_implementation_ideas" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_release_updates_vision_implementation_ideas</a><br>18:46:59 <cwickert> <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_acceptance_criteria"
target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_acceptance_criteria</a><br>18:47:05 <cwickert> <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_release_updates_vision" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_release_updates_vision</a><br>18:47:15 <nirik> the last one is the vision from the board.<br>18:47:34 <notting> anything in the User: namespace should obviously not be policy<br>18:47:37 <pjones> seems like we should make a category template for the various User: Proposal: ones and tag them so it says something at the top of the page or something.<br>18:47:37 <nirik> the rest should be removed probibly. (Although we do still have things to implement from the implementation_ideas page)<br>18:47:52 <pjones> (not that I've got any idea how to do that on the wiki)<br>18:48:21 <cwickert> the problem is there are conflictins statements<br>18:48:22 <abadger1999> pjones: Could just
use {{draft}}<br>18:48:35 <pjones> nirik: I'm not sure I'm okay with us deciding to remove stuff under User: (unless it violates various codes of behavior of course)<br>18:48:38 <pjones> abadger1999: yeah<br>18:48:48 <abadger1999> pjones: Although you might want something that also says "rejected" or "alternative was implemented"<br>18:48:51 <pjones> abadger1999: I was thinking something a little stronger than that, but that's certainly the right idea.<br>18:48:52 <nirik> pjones: true. Althought we could add a 'note: this is NOT policy' or something.<br>18:49:22 <cwickert> e.g. the last paragraph of <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_acceptance_criteria" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_acceptance_criteria</a> is not exactly what <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy</a> says<br>18:49:37
<pjones> nirik: yeah, something like {draft} but maybe a little more "don't use this as reference" since lots of people are used to reading draft documents as the canonical source for data ;)<br>18:50:03 <nirik> cwickert: about exceptions?<br>18:50:15 <cwickert> nirik, about criteria<br>18:50:33 * nirik is not following.<br>18:50:56 <nirik> The critical path / other updates sections?<br>18:51:02 <cwickert> <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_acceptance_criteria#All_other_updates" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_acceptance_criteria#All_other_updates</a> is different from <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy#All_other_updates" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy#All_other_updates</a><br>18:51:12 <cwickert> at least slightly<br>18:51:47 <cwickert> the information should be one one single page to make sure we have no
contradictions and no redundancy<br>18:51:48 <nirik> well, I thought I copied it from the one page to the new one.<br>18:52:12 <nirik> yes, I copied Package_update_acceptance_criteria data into Updates_Policy<br>18:52:17 <nirik> where I messed up we should fix it.<br>18:52:38 <cwickert> ok, what else is left to do except a clean-up?<br>18:53:10 <cwickert> i guess <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_release_updates_vision_implementation_ideas" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_release_updates_vision_implementation_ideas</a><br>18:53:21 <nirik> if you see issues that are obviously me messing up the copy, just fix them. If it's something that should be changed, bring it up here and we can vote on it.<br>18:53:28 <nirik> right, we need:<br>18:53:31 <cwickert> i hope I can come up with a proposal for the next meeting, I'm just too busy in my dayjob<br>18:53:33 <nirik>
metrics: how well is this working<br>18:53:44 <nirik> new feature repo: if it's fesable<br>18:53:47 <cwickert> what kind of metrics would that be?<br>18:54:26 <cwickert> i mean, how to judge if something is working? can we count how many people are cheating in bodhi?<br>18:54:37 <nirik> anything we could gather that would apply to: "Project members should be able to transparently measure or monitor a new updates process to objectively measure its effectiveness, and determine whether the updates process is achieving the aforementioned vision statements"<br>18:55:23 <nirik> we can count numbers of updates, numbers of bodhi comments/tests, number of karma submitters, number of bugs, etc.<br>18:55:49 <cwickert> so? what do we gain when counting the number of comments in bodhi?<br>18:56:05 <nirik> an increase in testing?<br>18:56:07 <cwickert> if even rel-eng gives "proxy karma" without testing<br>18:56:23 *
nirik is happy to listen to any other metrics you think we should gather.<br>18:56:50 <cwickert> I'm sorry, I don't have any<br>18:57:07 <cwickert> but what I see at <a href="https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/openbox-3.4.11.2-5.fc14" target="_blank">https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/openbox-3.4.11.2-5.fc14</a> makes me think we are not doing more testing than before<br>18:57:17 <wwoods> you're wrong.<br>18:57:20 <wwoods> provably so.<br>18:57:21 <cwickert> just an example, I'm sure there are plenty of this<br>18:57:33 <wwoods> that is an anecdote; the data say otherwise.<br>18:57:35 <nirik> the plural of anecdote is not data.<br>18:57:52 <nirik> anyhow, lets see what SMParrish comes up with and go from there?<br>18:58:05 <cwickert> wwoods, if two out of three testers are faking results, what have we gained?<br>18:58:17 <mjg59> One tester<br>18:58:25 <wwoods> furthermore, if
that were actually correct - what would be the correct solution? Do *less* testing?<br>18:58:28 <cwickert> well...<br>18:58:34 * nirik notes we are over 15min on this topic.<br>18:59:11 <cwickert> wwoods, not have technical limitations that make people abuse the guidelines.<br>18:59:29 <wwoods> finding problems with a process should probably cause you to look for ways to improve the process<br>18:59:32 <cwickert> anyway, I'm happy for all numbers we can gather, but I doubt they are meaningful<br>19:00:00 <nirik> ok, anything further on updates? or shall we move on?<br>19:00:01 <wwoods> so - constructive suggestions on that topic would be excellent! probably not here and now, though.<br>19:00:09 <cwickert> +1<br>19:00:51 <nirik> #action cwickert will work on new features repo ideas<br>19:00:59 <nirik> #action SMParrish will work on metrics<br>19:01:03 <nirik> #topic #416 Set EOL Date For Fedora
12<br>19:01:03 <nirik> .fesco 416<br>19:01:08 <zodbot> nirik: #416 (Set EOL Date For Fedora 12) - FESCo - Trac - <a href="https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/416" target="_blank">https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/416</a><br>19:01:11 <cwickert> can we also have somebody to clean up the wiki?<br>19:01:15 <nirik> Since F14 was pushed out a week, should we move EOL for F12 as well?<br>19:01:27 <nirik> cwickert: I can try, but I also have been very busy.<br>19:01:38 <pjones> nirik: yeah, we should keep them in lock-step I guess.<br>19:01:45 <cwickert> +1<br>19:02:12 <ajax> sure, why not<br>19:02:14 <mjg59> nirik: +1<br>19:02:29 <nirik> ok, +1 from me too.<br>19:02:36 <Southern_Gentlem> suggest 12/1/2010<br>19:02:44 <nirik> Further on this topic, instead of us voting on it, do we want to just setup a general rule?<br>19:02:50 <pjones> nirik: yes<br>19:02:57 <nirik> ie,
nearest weekday to 1 month from release.<br>19:03:00 <notting> ACK<br>19:03:04 <pjones> +1<br>19:03:07 <mjg59> +1<br>19:03:12 * mclasen is all for auto-EOL<br>19:03:13 <mclasen> +1<br>19:03:17 <ajax> +1<br>19:03:25 <nirik> that would make it 2010-12-02 for this case tho (2010-12-03 was suggested)<br>19:03:58 * notting is +1 to lockstep, +1 to auto-lockstep<br>19:04:20 <pjones> nirik: nearest to or first after?<br>19:04:31 <kylem> +1.<br>19:04:32 <nirik> pjones: we could do that I suppose.<br>19:04:41 <pjones> not that I really care.<br>19:04:41 * nirik doesn't feel too strongly either way.<br>19:05:22 <nirik> anyone object to 'nearest weekday 1 month from release +1 day' ?<br>19:05:37 <ajax> fine with me<br>19:05:50 <cwickert> same here<br>19:05:56 <Southern_Gentlem> why the +1 day?<br>19:06:11 <kylem> latency.<br>19:06:12 <kylem> :P<br>19:06:24 <nirik>
I guess that just makes it more complex.<br>19:06:42 <nirik> so, lets just do nearest weekday to 1 month after release.<br>19:07:07 <pjones> I'm thinking "first weekday after" just because that means we prefer mondays to fridays.<br>19:07:18 <pjones> (well, on or after. gah.)<br>19:07:27 <ajax> also fine with me.<br>19:07:33 <nirik> #agreed F12 eol will be 2010-12-02, moving forward eol dates will be the nearest weekday to 1 month from release<br>19:07:42 <nirik> pjones: I don't know that it matters...<br>19:07:59 <pjones> fair enough.<br>19:08:19 <nirik> Some topics that are just announcements/notices:<br>19:08:21 <nirik> #topic Elections coming up.<br>19:08:31 <nirik> elections are starting up for board, fesco, famsco<br>19:09:18 <nirik> Everyone should vote. ;)<br>19:09:25 <kylem> lol<br>19:09:27 <pjones> +1<br>19:09:31 <ajax> early and often.<br>19:09:33 *
nirik looks to see who is up from fesco...<br>19:09:44 <notting> ajax, cwickert, pjones, mjg59<br>19:09:45 <mjg59> Me, ajax, pjones, cwickert?<br>19:09:47 <mjg59> Yeah<br>19:09:52 <rbergeron> ...or nominate themselves for open positions :)<br>19:09:57 <nirik> Adam Jackson (ajax), Christoph Wickert (cwickert), Peter Jones (pjones), and Matthew Garrett (mjg59)<br>19:10:10 * nirik thanks notting for updating the page.<br>19:10:16 <nirik> <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/SteeringCommittee/Nominations" target="_blank">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/SteeringCommittee/Nominations</a><br>19:10:32 <nirik> moving on...<br>19:10:39 <cwickert> I haven't seen an announcement on devel list<br>19:10:39 <nirik> #topic Kudos for F14 release<br>19:10:42 * Southern_Gentlem crosses fingers that they all reapply for the job<br>19:10:58 <nirik> cwickert: yeah, not sure who is
coordinating this time. ;( will find out tho.<br>19:11:11 <notting> nirik: i think everyone's coordinating their own?<br>19:11:24 <notting> do we want to designate someone to post to the devel list?<br>19:11:31 <nirik> I'd like to thank all the maintainers, qa folks, users and rel-eng for making F14 such a smooth release. :)<br>19:11:37 <cwickert> +1<br>19:11:39 <nirik> notting: oh, usually there's a coordinator.<br>19:11:51 <cwickert> especially for QA, adamw does a great job<br>19:12:10 <nirik> seconded. ;)<br>19:12:27 * adamw would like to thank all the people who did all the work<br>19:12:57 <nirik> I can find out if there is a coordinator this time, and if not, at least mail the devel-announce list about nominations being open.<br>19:13:14 <SMParrish> +1 kudos to all<br>19:13:20 <notting> nirik: wfm<br>19:13:22 <cwickert> nirik, there was something in the board list about
coordination<br>19:13:24 <notting> nirik: thanks!<br>19:13:53 <nirik> ok, I had one f15 feature that I didn't note in time for the agenda. We could do it now, or wait until next week?<br>19:14:51 <cwickert> how about now?<br>19:14:54 <mjg59> Sure<br>19:14:55 <abadger1999> pjones, cwickert: Re: a template like {{draft}} I just made this for ya'll: <a href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Template:Draft/declined" target="_blank">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Template:Draft/declined</a> Go ahead and change it if you want something slightly different.<br>19:15:12 <nirik> abadger1999: thanks!<br>19:15:15 * abadger1999 sorry for jumping in with that but has to leave soon<br>19:15:16 <nirik> #topic #480 F15Feature - RemoveSETUID ( <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RemoveSETUID" target="_blank">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RemoveSETUID</a> )<br>19:15:16 <nirik> .fesco 480<br>19:15:17
<zodbot> nirik: #480 (F15Feature - RemoveSETUID ( <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RemoveSETUID" target="_blank">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RemoveSETUID</a> )) - FESCo - Trac - <a href="https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/480" target="_blank">https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/480</a><br>19:15:36 <pjones> abadger1999: excellent.<br>19:15:57 * cwickert looks<br>19:16:15 <nirik> I'm +1 on this. I don't know how hard it's going to be, but if anyone can get it to happen dwalsh can. ;)<br>19:16:39 <ajax> i'm only barely +1 to this since i still think capabilities are far too coarse-grained to be of much use<br>19:16:46 <mjg59> I'm also +1, though concerned about the degree to which things may end up breaking<br>19:17:01 <pjones> I'm +0 to this for the sam reason ajax is barely +1 to it.<br>19:17:02 <mjg59> I can't see it /reducing/ security, but I don't think it's as big a win as it
could be<br>19:17:22 <ajax> but f15's xserver is already shipping non-setuid, so, whatever.<br>19:17:50 <notting> ajax: sys_admin or raw_io?<br>19:18:01 <ajax> notting: both those and also dac_override<br>19:18:07 <mclasen> is the dependency list on the tracker bug complete ?<br>19:18:11 <mclasen> 24 sounds low...<br>19:18:29 <nirik> it does seem low yeah.<br>19:19:14 <notting> ajax: that doesn't remove much. if anything.<br>19:19:17 <ajax> notting: if that sounds like zero effective reduction in privileges, that's because it's no effective reduction in privs.<br>19:19:22 <ajax> so, like i said.<br>19:19:38 <ajax> hey cool we can use capabilities! if only that were meaningful!<br>19:19:50 <mclasen> would be good if the feature page had some advice on how to find out the 'correct caps' to use<br>19:19:56 <notting> i'm moderately for the idea, but it remains to see if we'll come
up with anything useful<br>19:20:17 <ajax> xserver might be a special case, but really anything that needs dac_override or sys_admin is trivially equivalent to root<br>19:20:27 <pjones> mclasen: the problem is that the capabilities are so poorly thought out that that's a non-trivial (and possibly non-meaningful) exercise.<br>19:20:41 <mclasen> and one that breaks at runtime if you get it wrong ?<br>19:20:48 <ajax> mclasen: indeed.<br>19:20:49 <pjones> yep.<br>19:21:41 <ajax> i would say i get the feeling the caps were designed by someone who had never tried to root a machine, but that would imply that i thought they were designed period.<br>19:21:54 <mclasen> so we need individual testing attention for each binary that gets that treatment, I guess<br>19:22:42 <ajax> yeah. again, if dan wants to drive that, great.<br>19:22:58 <notting> ajax: 'designed by someone who only wanted to remove setuid
from ping, other things are an afterthought'?<br>19:23:34 <ajax> notting: that's a bit closer, yeah.<br>19:24:27 <ajax> anyway. +1 to the feature even though it's of the most marginal utility.<br>19:25:04 <nirik> so where are we here...<br>19:25:11 <nirik> +3 I see<br>19:25:19 <cwickert> +1, see what it brings<br>19:25:31 <SMParrish> +1<br>19:26:13 <pjones> I guess I could be +1 despite limited utility. It's not a bad thing to do per se.<br>19:26:46 <nirik> #agreed the feature is approved.<br>19:26:50 <nirik> #topic Open Floor<br>19:26:55 <nirik> Anything for open floor?<br>19:26:57 * mclasen adds comments to the feature page and gives a +1<br>19:27:00 <ajax> hah! the bugs even cite Xorg as the example.<br>19:27:09 * ajax ahead of the curve<br>19:27:32 <abadger1999> <a href="https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/4224"
target="_blank">https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/4224</a><br>19:27:39 <nirik> ah yes,<br>19:27:56 <nirik> #topic break build inheritance between F14 and F15 and update deltarpm files<br>19:28:07 <nirik> .rel-eng 4224<br>19:28:09 <zodbot> nirik: Ticket #4230 (task created): build tag override request for eclipse-3.6.1-2.fc14 || Ticket #4229 (task closed): Retire OpenOffice.org from F15 || Ticket #4229 (task created): Retire OpenOffice.org from F15 || Ticket #4228 (task created): Buildroot override request for libtorrent || Ticket #4227 (task created): tag request: dist-f14-override for libgda-4.2.0-1.fc14 || Ticket #4226 (defect closed): (11 more messages)<br>19:28:15 <abadger1999> Oxf13: You around for this?<br>19:28:16 <nirik> oops. thats not right. ;)<br>19:28:34 <ajax> eesh, this looks vile.<br>19:29:15 <nirik> yes, yes it does.<br>19:29:36 <abadger1999> This comment is probably the best
summary of the problem: <a href="https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/4224#comment:6" target="_blank">https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/4224#comment:6</a><br>19:29:51 <abadger1999> The initial report has the proposed solution.<br>19:30:31 <nirik> given that it falls back to the full rpm ok and that deltas are only somewhat usefull in rawhide anyhow...<br>19:30:32 <abadger1999> I think Oxf13 would like fesco input because we normally don't break build inheritance by itself... although we do in practice if we do a mass rebuild 9but once again, that would normally be later in the cycle)<br>19:30:42 <nirik> this is just f15 right?<br>19:30:48 <abadger1999> Correct.<br>19:30:55 * nirik whews<br>19:31:11 <abadger1999> It won't affect f14 as jnovy isn't going to push the new xz back.<br>19:31:19 <nirik> thank goodness.<br>19:31:32 <mclasen> whats the consequence of broken build inheritance ? people have
to build their stuff for rawhide ?<br>19:31:40 <mclasen> doesn't sound too onerous to me<br>19:31:55 <ajax> mclasen: yeah, f14 builds won't automatically bubble to f15.<br>19:31:56 <abadger1999> mclasen: Correct. A build for F14 won't automatically go to F15.<br>19:32:11 <nirik> if we nuke existing deltas does that mean we would need a compose to rebuild them all? (ie, a long ass one)<br>19:32:35 <abadger1999> nirik: No, the idea is that we'll only have deltas for packages built after that time.<br>19:32:41 <nirik> ok, good.<br>19:32:45 <notting> rawhide deltas are just against the prior tree<br>19:32:55 <abadger1999> nirik: The reason is that the final package on the user's system will have been built with the xz on the user's system.<br>19:33:07 <nirik> I'm fine with the plan then... tag, break inhert, nuke deltas, move on.<br>19:33:09 <abadger1999> nirik: And when the update package
was old, that's what's causing the breakage.<br>19:34:02 <pjones> yeah, I'm fine with this plan.<br>19:34:14 <ajax> works for me<br>19:34:22 <SMParrish> based on that I'm good with it<br>19:34:40 <nirik> that's +4 I think.<br>19:34:43 <mclasen> +1<br>19:35:01 <kylem> hrm.<br>19:35:04 <mjg59> +1, I think<br>19:35:05 <kylem> +1.<br>19:35:12 <mjg59> I can't see anything obviouly better<br>19:35:16 <kylem> i'd like t think about it more though.<br>19:35:31 <nirik> #agreed Fesco is fine with the indicated plan of mass tagging, breaking inherit, and scrubbing old deltarpms for rawhide.<br>19:35:34 <ajax> well, besides turning off deltas<br>19:35:52 <nirik> well, deltas are not usually that usefull in rawhide, unless you make sure to update every single day.<br>19:36:27 <nirik> and even then, if you had an day out of date mirror, etc.<br>19:36:40 <abadger1999>
Cool.<br>19:36:48 * abadger1999 has to vamoose now.<br>19:36:52 <ajax> yeah, i really don't see much benefit in drpms for rawhide<br>19:36:53 <nirik> #topic Open Floor<br>19:37:05 <nirik> any further open floor items? or shall we wrap up?<br>19:37:06 <mclasen> do we have a date for that event ?<br>19:37:33 <nirik> mclasen: I guess when rel-eng is ready... it should be announced, etc.<br>19:37:46 <mclasen> sure, sounds fine<br>19:37:54 * mclasen was just making sure its not happening tomorrow<br>19:38:40 <nirik> I think the new xz has landed, but the only harm right now is that deltarpms don't work.<br>19:39:10 * nirik will close out the meeting in a few here if nothing comes up.<br>19:39:13 <notting> right, and since they fallback, i wasn't thinking it was OMG critical<br>19:39:34 <nirik> yeah.<br>19:39:39 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone!<br>19:39:44 <nirik>
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