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On 07/22/2011 05:02 PM, Ric Wheeler wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4E29AD1D.4010400@redhat.com" type="cite">I
don't have it backwards - my day job is to work on exactly getting
this kind of cutting edge feature out to end users.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Which feature of this magnitute have you put out to your users?<br>
<br>
Serously if you have some motivation tips to get things moving I and
others would gladly like to hear them.. <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:4E29AD1D.4010400@redhat.com" type="cite">When
you propose and implement a massive change, you need to make sure
that the system as a whole still works.
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Certanly.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:4E29AD1D.4010400@redhat.com" type="cite">Of
course, the developers of code components <b class="moz-txt-star"><span
class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>should<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b>
work with the systemd team, but if they don't (don't like it, have
higher priorities, whatever), then the proponents of change need
to do the heavy lifting. Heavy lifting can involve education,
convincing others in a <b class="moz-txt-star"><span
class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>nice<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b>
way or actually having to do the code.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Regarding your education response we have man pages upstream
documentation Lennart's blog posts and various interviews he has
done along with very active upstream mailings and irc channel and if
man pages or other documentation are *vague* about any issue only
thing people need to do is ask.<br>
<br>
You don't receive answers if you don't ask and we can't force
knowledge upon people or have them to educate themselves. <br>
<br>
Regarding your convincing people this is the third release cycle
that we have to act nice repeat answers to both end users sysadmins
and developers alike and at the same time be our work ridiculed
belittled and we subdued to personal attacks.<br>
<br>
You may think third time is the charm and I honestly don't how
Lennart does cope with this but I decided to draw the nice line here
the third release cycle we are put through this.<br>
<br>
As much as I would like us to have the authority to "do the code"
that unfortunately wont cut it since we lack the expertise, the
experience and insight that maintainers have through maintaining
their component so having us walsing in and do the conversion might
actually be doing more harm then good however working together will
deliver the best result.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:4E29AD1D.4010400@redhat.com" type="cite">We
simply cannot ship something that would lose data or cause
critical components to fail for our users.
</blockquote>
<br>
I completly agree and from my pov it's like maintainers do not
understand how important that is for us to manage to convert all the
500 - 600 daemons in one release cycle.<br>
<br>
Beside the obvious unfortinate experience our user may go through
like the one Reindl Harald and perhaps others have experienced then
this may also break and hinder work for other developers that build
their application stack on top of those daemons. <br>
<br>
One such example is the freeipa stack where the freeipa team needs
to rewrite/replace and or add seperated systemd spesific code and if
I'm not mistaken they will only support sysv on sysv platforms and
systemd on systemd platforms instead of trying to support mixed
match of both init system ( Freeipa guys feel free to correct me if
I'm wrong ). <br>
<br>
Freeipa is built on top of 389 Directory Server, MIT Kerberos, NTP,
DNS,and Dogtag ( which I dont recall having any daemons ) of that
only the NTP has been converted work is being done on converting 389
and I think the native systemd units for freeipa server daemons are
ready but they are not being shipped yet however that leaves out
bind and mit kerberos with no movement what so ever on those two
components atleast there has been no respons on the relevant bug
report for those two components as is with so many others and I have
not heard a word from either of those maintainers on irc. <br>
<br>
Now their new code depends on all of those components to be
converted and it does not take more then one of those components to
not convert and their whole work is being thrown out the window and
they are forced to rewrite their code to support a mixed batch of
sysv legacy scripts and native systemd units and they have the time
from from Beta to GA to test that code on that mixed batch of init
files which at the same time those unit files might be subdued to
various testing and rewriting as an indvidual standalone services.
<br>
<br>
See my point on how vital it can be to convert to those unit files
as soon as possible and that's just one application stack built on
top of five components. <br>
<br>
The main problem here are the maintainers that do not respond to the
bug report or when I ping them on irc because then I dont get the
status from them which in turn FESCO wont either since I deliver
them progress report on each meeting along with keeping [1] updated.
<br>
<br>
I'm not asking for much of maintainers *valuable* time (apparently
others people time does not matter here. We are all busy with work
life and what not, expecial those of us that are not working full
time on fedora and are doing this work on our freetime and
apparently it's not considered rude on maintainers behalf to not
respond to bug reports to the people reporting them ) only that they
respond if they are looking at this or not or will be after a week
for that matter. ( which is like minute of two of their precious
time ).<br>
<br>
When I ping people on irc, private emails bugs and what not it's not
because I seek some enjoyment in nagging/bothering I do it because
it's necessary and the best way to get rid of me if I'm such a
bother that's to convert the legacy sysv init script because then
you go of my radar and I leave you be...<br>
<br>
JBG<br>
<br>
1.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Johannbg/Features/SysVtoSystemd">https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Johannbg/Features/SysVtoSystemd</a><br>
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