<tt><font size=2>> From: Chris Murphy <lists@colorremedies.com></font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>> <br>
> On Mar 12, 2013, at 8:45 AM, John.Florian@dart.biz wrote:</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>> <br>
> > From: Chris Murphy <lists@colorremedies.com> <br>
> > > Kernel update breaks system. User ignorant of hold-down
key approach<br>
> > > is stuck. Menu at least advertises possibility of alternative.<br>
> > <br>
> > This logic doesn't work. The user ignorant of holding down even
<br>
> > random keys, let alone what will become a common knowledge key,
is <br>
> > also ignorant of the existence of a boot menu, and even more
<br>
> > ignorant of the notion they need to choose a prior kernel. <br>
> <br>
> And said users are supposed to become more enlightened by obscuring
<br>
> the boot loader with an invisible cloak just because grub burns your
retinas?</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>> <br>
> No, I'm saying that the idea people become enlightened by seeing <br>
> boot manager menus is an idea worthy of ridicule.</font></tt>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>Ridicule it all you like, but I *did* in fact learn
things by seeing the boot process at work. I'll grant it may not
be as esthetically pleasing, but as one who's always sought function before
form, I really don't see any harm in grub showing that it's there. Computers
are tools, not objects of art. If grub is so evil and shouldn't be
part of the Fedora experience, why is grub even being used?</font></tt>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2> <br>
> I for one learned a hell of a lot about *nix systems by playing with<br>
> (among many other things) the the kernel command line and doing <br>
> things like "init=/bin/bash". While I find grub quite
arcane, I do <br>
> like to tinker with low-level details that affect the higher-level
<br>
> things. Such tinkering got me a decent career. Like it
or not, <br>
> general purpose PC hardware needs a boot loader. </font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>> <br>
> It's tinkering that presents potential for enlightenment. Not a <br>
> visible boot manager menu by default. </font></tt>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>I agree regarding tinkering, but how many people are
not going to realize it can be tinkered with if they don't even know it's
there?</font></tt>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2> <br>
> This "GRUB must be visible for users to become curious and <br>
> knowledgeable" meme is f'n annoying deification. Curious users
will <br>
> still be curious, those who want knowledge will seek it. The <br>
> bootloader menu god does not get one byte of credit for my knowledge<br>
> or intellectual curiosity.</font></tt>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>Maybe not yours, but do you honestly believe you can
speak for everyone's experience? I'll argue that this "everything
must be hidden" meme is just as annoying to some other fraction of
the community. I don't think either of us has the data to show which
group has more members.</font></tt>
<br>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>> It's as if every Windows (let alone Mac) user
is a complete, utter, <br>
> retard in the minds of such linux users because they don't suffer
<br>
> through every conceivable UX nightmare of the past and present. We
<br>
> must bleed the new users with leeches! Yes! They must be bled out
<br>
> properly in order to properly understand the linux the way we do,
<br>
> and it can only be done with leeches! We need more leeches, not less!</font></tt>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>I have no idea what you're talking about here, but
your world must damned wonderful if a visible grub menu is a "UX nightmare".
This fantastical drama does little for the technical merits of the
discussion.</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2><br>
> No one wants to take away your option to use leeches. I realize it's<br>
> shocking heresy that there might be new concepts, and emphasis on
<br>
> what sorts of experiences people need to have, let alone MUST have
by default.</font></tt>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>I personally could not care less about the defaults
Fedora uses. I've been overriding them for years. I'm just
glad I was able to learn these things before everything became hidden.
I'm only concerned about the future generations that are given a
shiny black box with no way to see what magic happens inside. Today's
youth have none of the curiosity that I and my friends had at their age
and I blame it on this "you don't need to know how it works"
mentality that is infecting everything. If you really want that Apple
experience, why don't you just use their goods?</font></tt>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
--<br>
John Florian</font>
<br>