Moving away from reporting to RH bugzilla and adopting pure upstream reporting mantra.

[Jonathan Kamens]

Jóhann,

I do not think you are participating in this discussion with your mind 
open to the possibility that you may be wrong.

People have offered many reasons why they think what you are proposing 
is a bad idea. You have failed to acknowledge the possibility that any 
of those arguments might be valid; in fact, you have completely ignored 
many of them. In contrast, you may have noticed that the people who 
disagree with your proposal have still acknowledged that some of what 
you have said is true. It's a sure sign that someone is not listening 
with an open mind when they ignore anything in the discussion that 
weakens their thesis.

Furthermore, numerous things you've asserted here have been proved 
objectively false, and you've failed to acknowledge a single one of 
those, choosing instead to change the subject each time. Changing the 
subject rather than admitting error is another sure sign of an idealogue.

I am no longer active enough in this community to know whether you hold 
some sort of position of authority, whereby you will be the one actually 
making the decision about whether to stop putting Fedora bugs in RHBZ. 
If you do, then frankly your conduct throughout this discussion has 
given me no faith whatsoever that the decision will be made in a 
rational, objective way. Rather, it feels to me like you've already made 
up your mind and are just putting on a show of listening to other 
people's opinions before going ahead and doing what you wanted to do all 
along.

On 09/24/2013 04:35 PM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> On 09/24/2013 07:17 PM, Jonathan Kamens wrote:
>> I entirely agree with you that it would be better if those 
>> percentages were lower. But driving those numbers is not the end 
>> goal. The end goal is to improve the quality of Fedora as much as we 
>> can with the resources we have, and I (and many others, clearly) 
>> don't believe that no longer tracking Fedora bugs in RHBZ will 
>> accomplish that.
>
> Working directly with upstream might improve it ( we ofcourse dont 
> know until we actually try that ) since it will cut out the middle man 
> ( the packager )
There is nothing in the current system to stop the person reporting a 
Fedora bug from choosing to report it upstream instead of, or in 
addition to, reporting it to Fedora. Indeed, I myself often do that when 
I believe that a bug I've encountered is not Fedora-specific, and I'm 
sure many other power users and developers do so as well.

What you seem to be ignoring (see above about your complete failure to 
acknowledge or respond to arguments to which you have no good answer) is 
that *people who are willing and able to do the work of reporting bugs 
upstream are an extremely small minority of the people who actually 
report Fedora bugs.* Many people here are telling you that if we make 
end users report bugs upstream, most end users will simply stop 
reporting bugs. You can't make this fact disappear by pretending it does 
not exist.

In other words... with the current system, power users can report bugs 
upstream when appropriate, while normal users can report bugs in one 
place, to Fedora RHBZ, and in the case of a properly maintained package, 
the package maintainer(s) will do the right thing with it. In the system 
you're proposing, power users must ALWAYS report bugs upstream, which 
means that (a) some of them won't bother and (b) there won't be any 
place for them to report Fedora-specific bugs, and most normal users, 
frankly, won't bother to report bugs at all if they have to jump through 
hoops to do so. *The system you are proposing is **a net loss.*
> or give the upstream maintainer ( if he's the middle man ) more time 
> to work on the bug discuss and pass it's patch through upstream ( 
> which needs to be done in most cases anyway ).
I'm really not sure what you mean by this. In particular, I don't 
understand how and when the "upstream maintainer" of a package is the 
"middle man", nor why that would "need to be done in most cases."

Frankly, the more you write in this thread, the more convinced I become 
that you are just saying anything you need to say to avoid having to 
admit that you're wrong about anything. I make it a rule not to attempt 
to hold a rational discussion with someone who I don't believe is being 
rational. Therefore, I'm done with this discussion.

Regards,

   jik

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