F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

[Pete Travis]

On Jan 3, 2014 4:08 AM, "Lars E. Pettersson" <lars at homer.se> wrote:
>
> On 01/03/2014 05:07 AM, Pete Travis wrote:
>>
>> I think there was some misunderstanding here. If you can't find your
>> cronjob output in the journal, *your* cron is broken.
>
>
> Default installation:
>
> [root at tux ~]# rpm -V cronie
> [root at tux ~]# rpm -q cronie
> cronie-1.4.11-4.fc20.x86_64
> [root at tux ~]# rpm -V crontabs
> [root at tux ~]# rpm -q crontabs
> crontabs-1.11-7.20130830git.fc20.noarch
>
>
>> Before I get too
>> far in, in my opinion, mails are good for notification, voluminous
>> content should be in the logs that the mail notifies about. The journal
>> is good at logs.
>
>
> Mail has no problem handling voluminous content. It is also very easy to
retrieve without knowing quite a lot of strange options to a command that
you have to print in a terminal.
>

Yes, we know you prefer mail... Mail on the command line is exactly what
you describe - it requires knowing esoteric command line options to an
awkward terminal application.  Two unfamiliar and clunky terminal
applications for the purpose would be redundant, so one is gone.

>
>> $ journalctl SYSLOG_IDENTIFIER=CROND -f  #filtered for convenience
>
>
> Where is my output from yum-cron (yum-cron is run hourly and it has a
fault at the moment due to spots Chrome repository not yet being up to
Fedora 20)?
>
> [root at tux ~]# journalctl SYSLOG_IDENTIFIER=CROND --since=-2h
> -- Logs begin at Tue 2013-07-02 20:53:56 CEST, end at Fri 2014-01-03
11:40:01 CE
> Jan 03 09:50:01 tux CROND[3666]: (root) CMD (/usr/lib64/sa/sa1 1 1)
> Jan 03 10:00:01 tux CROND[3895]: (root) CMD (/usr/lib64/sa/sa1 1 1)
> Jan 03 10:01:01 tux CROND[4044]: (root) CMD (run-parts /etc/cron.hourly)
> Jan 03 10:10:01 tux CROND[4358]: (root) CMD (/usr/lib64/sa/sa1 1 1)
> Jan 03 10:20:01 tux CROND[5345]: (root) CMD (/usr/lib64/sa/sa1 1 1)
> Jan 03 10:30:01 tux CROND[5521]: (root) CMD (/usr/lib64/sa/sa1 1 1)
> Jan 03 10:40:01 tux CROND[5790]: (root) CMD (/usr/lib64/sa/sa1 1 1)
> Jan 03 10:50:01 tux CROND[6135]: (root) CMD (/usr/lib64/sa/sa1 1 1)
> Jan 03 11:00:01 tux CROND[6388]: (root) CMD (/usr/lib64/sa/sa1 1 1)
> Jan 03 11:01:01 tux CROND[6541]: (root) CMD (run-parts /etc/cron.hourly)
> Jan 03 11:10:01 tux CROND[6763]: (root) CMD (/usr/lib64/sa/sa1 1 1)
> Jan 03 11:20:01 tux CROND[6963]: (root) CMD (/usr/lib64/sa/sa1 1 1)
> Jan 03 11:30:01 tux CROND[7380]: (root) CMD (/usr/lib64/sa/sa1 1 1)
> Jan 03 11:40:01 tux CROND[7681]: (root) CMD (/usr/lib64/sa/sa1 1 1)
>

I see " CMD (run-parts /etc/cron.hourly", that could be where the magic
happens.  Maybe the output will show up with other filters, or it could be
rewritten to use systemd-cat.

>
>> But wait! These things could get all mixed up on a busy machine, you
>> say! Let's take a closer look at a message:
>>
>> MESSAGE=(pete) CMDOUT (New Things are Different.)
>
> [lots of lines removed]
>>
>>      SYSLOG_IDENTIFIER=CROND
>>      _CMDLINE=/usr/sbin/CROND -n
>>      _BOOT_ID=0557929cbde247928f945d8b53a6e067
>
>
> How is non technical user supposed to understand this? What command
sequence did you use to get that output?
>

A non-technical user would either understand by example - the part you cut
out - or, they are a nontechnical user and have no interest in such things .

>
>> $ journalctl SYSLOG_IDENTIFIER=CROND _AUDIT_SESSION=83 -b
>
>
> How do you find out the _AUDIT_SESSION to use?
>
I didn't guess. There was a straightforward and easy to follow example, but
you removed it.

>
>> Stop! I don't want all that extra information, you say! `journalctl`
>> should KNOW I'm not interested in the timestamp, or the hostname, or the
>> name and PID of the reporting binary - just give me the message!
>>
>> journalctl SYSLOG_IDENTIFIER=CROND _AUDIT_SESSION=83 -o cat
>> (pete) CMD (LARSHAPPY="no"; if [[ "$LARSHAPPY" == "no" ]]; then echo -e
>> "<This isn't the same.\nNew Th
>> (pete) CMDOUT (This isn't the same.)
>> (pete) CMDOUT (New Things are Different.)
>> (pete) CMDOUT (Some people like the old thing.)
>
>
> That is several messages. I want only one...

So what?  If your entire complaint is "it isn't a mail" then send the mail
and be done.

>
> How am I notified that I should look in the journal when things go wrong?
(With mail I am notified and also get the "log" lines all at once)
>

How is a nontechnical desktop user notified of new mail? That's rhetorical,
don't answer. They aren't .

>
>> I'll agree that this isn't as *simple* as banging out a four letter word
>> and reading message, but the journal can provide context, too.
>
>
> I am not arguing whether the journal is good or not, I am arguing whether
removing the MTA used to send mail, sent from some applications, is good or
bad. As I see it, as long as some applications do send mail, we have to
have a MTA. Or at least let those applications have a requirement of a MTA
so that the MTA is installed when those applications are installed on the
system. That is my key argument, not that the journal is bad.
>
> The journal is OK, but very hard for a non technical user to use. What is
needed is probably a very good graphical frontend that hides all these
strange things you show us in your mail. How is a non technical user
supposed to understand all this?
>

OK, then, your argument is late and pointless. Appeal to fesco if you feel
strongly about adding sendmail to the default installation, such decisions
are not made on the user support list.

>
>> You're putting lots of effort into complaining about a hugely useful
>> tool, and apparently little into learning about it.  If the complaint is
>> about cronjobs, start here:
>
>
> I am not complaining about the journal. But please let us know where to
find a "journal for dummies" text where we can find out how to become
journal experts. The man page is a bit sparse on information.
>
>
>> Of course, if you like the old way, you can just install and configure
>> an MTA.
>
>
> I have to as long as some applications use that path to send messages to
me. The same thing goes for all others installing these applications.
Without a MTA these messages are lost in bit space.
>
>
> Lars
> --

More "I like using mail" ranting here. That's fine, use mail.  I just
wanted to point out how to use the journal, so I'm done here.

--Pete
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