[Fedora-ambassadors-list] Be a critique

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

Fedora Core 5 is going to be released in a month or so. We need to 
understand better where we are heading towards and you can help.  Lets 
reverse the roles for a change. Play devil's advocate?. What is the best 
criticisms that you can put forward on areas that Fedora needs to 
improve? How do we improve on those?

-- 
Rahul 

Fedora Bug Triaging - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers

[Tejas Dinkar]

On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 18:32 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  What is the best criticisms that you can put forward on areas that
> Fedora needs to 
>  improve? How do we improve on those? 
Well, I know that I'll get flamed for this, but fedora does not work on
my laptop for one reason. The battery module does work, and it often
causes the kernel to panic all together.

The fedora kernel auto loads modules of bootup, so it really can't
detect that my battery will cause a panic if you try to load it.

What I think, is it would be really cool if we could make
a /boot/kernel.banned, with a list of modules the kernel should
absolutely not try to load.

I'll think of other things that are bugging me later :)

Gja

[Thorsten Leemhuis]

Am Dienstag, den 21.02.2006, 18:58 +0530 schrieb Tejas Dinkar:
>  On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 18:32 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  > What is the best criticisms that you can put forward on areas that Fedora needs to 
>  > improve? How do we improve on those?
>  Well, I know that I'll get flamed for this, 
Here I am. :-)

>   but fedora does not work on
>  my laptop for one reason. The battery module does work, and it often
>  causes the kernel to panic all together.
>  
>  The fedora kernel auto loads modules of bootup, so it really can't
>  detect that my battery will cause a panic if you try to load it.
>  
>  What I think, is it would be really cool if we could make
>  a /boot/kernel.banned, with a list of modules the kernel should
>  absolutely not try to load. 
Add 

alias foo=off

to /etc/modprobe.conf .Done ;-)

(untested, but should work iirc)

CU
thl

[Pablo Barrera Franco]

Hi all,
Being critic....so i have some about technical tips, but as Fedora like 
a bank of test of RHEL its very difficult to split both projects.

Anaconda no more!
I think that the ananconda installer is out of date. Mandriva installer 
is the best linux installer so far. A resizing module,
and expert and common user interface is the best option.

How to replace...
Replace and improve Mandriva Installer and put in Fedora Core 6 Release!

No modular control center
Dont have a control center unified like SuSE or Mandriva is another 
difficulty. No internert sharing wizzard with ease of use,
No Cuztomization of services,, bad Network manager, no wizzards, no 
integrated GUI Firewall (firestarter could be an option)

How to replace
Leave behind configuration in place holders and unifiy the control center.

Up2date? Yum extender? or KLIK!
Yes, we have klik a MacOS style installer. A synaptic like interface 
with rpm packages is the best option. Yum extender even is not
official is worst than Synaptic.

How to replace
Leave behing up2date...for ever...

Too much cds...too much bleeding edge
When we make an update from a common workstation we need at least 100MB 
of updates anyway. So, why not release a
single cd with the most commonly packages and manage the others via 
Internet?
Ubuntu has more aceptance cause they have a single cd. For some 
countries is too much embarrasing to do this... accesibility
is the key...

How to replace
Only one cd is enoguh for an installation. Yum will do the rest of the 
work...

Bluecurve makes me remember Red Hat 9, GNOME or KDE, of both?
yes is a theme, could not be a valid argument. SimpleKDe is the best 
option for a single cd installer. If some one wants gnome download it
and run it!

How to replace
KDE simple is the next generation of desktop or XPDE,,,,(more better, 
faster and cheaper (Mathew dixit in Summit 2005)

Non technical tips
When we make a critic is not possible to split the Fedora roadmap around 
non technical issues. Strategy for US based countries
is not the option. Non intuitive wiki, non subdomains for localized 
Fedora Community (fedoraproject.org/us /chile /germany
with a centralized CMS system, etc...No book of spread fedora, slides 
rules, motivation program for ambassador, tools for get
more people around FOSS. I think that the Fedora Foundation must find 
the way to redesign all the strategy around Fedora with
technical and non technical issues...

Well i think that I become to much critic!, but in this case is what i 
feel...You ask for it you get it! :-)

Anyway I love Fedora.

-- 
Pablo Barrera Franco 
Fedora Ambassador Argentina
--
pablo(a)barrerafranco.com.ar
http://www.barrerafranco.com.ar
--
IM   : pablo.barrera(a)jabber.org
Skype: p.barrera
Cel  : +54 11 [15] 6187 1603

[Chitlesh GOORAH]

>  Anaconda no more!
>  I think that the ananconda installer is out of date. Mandriva installer
>  is the best linux installer so far. A resizing module,
>  and expert and common user interface is the best option. 
Kadischi needs anaconda !!
I request to leave anaconda, but enhance it :)
and create patches for kadischi for any enhancement if possible :)


--
http://clunixchit.blogspot.com

[Chitlesh GOORAH]

On 2/21/06, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  Hi
>
>  Fedora Core 5 is going to be released in a month or so. We need to
>  understand better where we are heading towards and you can help.  Lets
>  reverse the roles for a change. Play devil's advocate?. What is the best
>  criticisms that you can put forward on areas that Fedora needs to
>  improve? How do we improve on those? 
Technical Support !!!!
Ive meant a lot of Mandriva users (French users) saying this and that.
But coming to technical support, they admit that they dont really have
FREE support or help. Something they do say that they wont even help
non-French Mandriva users for some reason or another.

We have to tell Linux users we (Fedora) have the BEST technical
support, besides talking we must act too of course. We got to say that
The Fedora Community Simplifies Your Troubleshooting Load.

This is my recommendation :)

--
http://clunixchit.blogspot.com

[Clair]

Pablo Barrera Franco wrote:

>  Anaconda no more!
>  I think that the ananconda installer is out of date. Mandriva installer
>  is the best linux installer so far. A resizing module,
>  and expert and common user interface is the best option. 
I actually like Anaconda. It's easy to use.

>  No modular control center
>  Dont have a control center unified like SuSE or Mandriva is another
>  difficulty. No internert sharing wizzard with ease of use,
>  No Cuztomization of services,, bad Network manager, no wizzards, no
>  integrated GUI Firewall (firestarter could be an option) 
Eurgh.. I hate SuSE's control panel...

>  Up2date? Yum extender? or KLIK!
>  Yes, we have klik a MacOS style installer. A synaptic like interface
>  with rpm packages is the best option. Yum extender even is not
>  official is worst than Synaptic.
>
>  How to replace
>  Leave behing up2date...for ever... 
up2date has been removed from FC5 :)

>  Too much cds...too much bleeding edge
>  When we make an update from a common workstation we need at least 100MB
>  of updates anyway. So, why not release a
>  single cd with the most commonly packages and manage the others via
>  Internet?
>  Ubuntu has more aceptance cause they have a single cd. For some
>  countries is too much embarrasing to do this... accesibility
>  is the key...
>
>  How to replace
>  Only one cd is enoguh for an installation. Yum will do the rest of the
>  work... 
I have to agree with that.. a one-disc install would be nice. I noticed
that Debian/Ubuntu gets packages from the internet - why can't Fedora? (If
people want the packages on CD, then I think the 4 CD pack/1 DVD is still
quite nice) - why can't we have both?


Clair

[Rahul Sundaram]

Pablo Barrera Franco wrote:

>  Hi all,
>  Being critic....so i have some about technical tips, but as Fedora 
>  like a bank of test of RHEL its very difficult to split both projects.
>
>  Anaconda no more!
>  I think that the ananconda installer is out of date. Mandriva 
>  installer is the best linux installer so far. A resizing module,
>  and expert and common user interface is the best option.
>
>  How to replace...
>  Replace and improve Mandriva Installer and put in Fedora Core 6 Release! 
We are unlikely to drop years of work wholesale. Lets be realistic about 
things. What would be better is to use the anaconda mailing list and 
bugzilla to discuss ideas for enhancements. The current plans are 
available at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/AnacondaWorkItems.

>  No modular control center
>  Dont have a control center unified like SuSE or Mandriva is another 
>  difficulty. 
Try out system-config-control in Fedora Extras.

>  No internert sharing wizzard with ease of use 
System-config-network and Firestarter in Fedora Extras can be used for 
this.

>  ,
>  No Cuztomization of services, 
System-config-services.

>  , bad Network manager, 
You will have to file bugs if you find anything bad. That would be a 
good way to provide feedback to the developers on improving it

>  no wizzards,  
Pretty much all of the graphical tools within Fedora (system-config*, 
pirut etc) are intended to provide

>  no integrated GUI Firewall (firestarter could be an option) 
System-config-securitylevel which is also integrated within Anaconda 
provides this functionality

>  Up2date? Yum extender? or KLIK!
>  Yes, we have klik a MacOS style installer. A synaptic like interface 
>  with rpm packages is the best option. Yum extender even is not
>  official is worst than Synaptic. 
Pup provides a updater and Pirut provides package management within 
Fedora Core 5. If you would like to integrate Klik go right ahead.

>  How to replace
>  Leave behing up2date...for ever... 
Its not installed by default anymore from Fedora Core 5 and likely to be 
dropped in Fedora Core 6.

>  Too much cds...too much bleeding edge
>  When we make an update from a common workstation we need at least 
>  100MB of updates anyway. So, why not release a
>  single cd with the most commonly packages and manage the others via 
>  Internet?
>  Ubuntu has more aceptance cause they have a single cd. For some 
>  countries is too much embarrasing to do this... accesibility
>  is the key...
>
>  How to replace
>  Only one cd is enoguh for an installation. Yum will do the rest of the 
>  work... 
A single CD can be used for a minimal installation. Only 2 CD's  are 
required for a desktop installation. Yum isnt as useful as ISO images in 
many places. The longer team goal would be a effective reorganization of 
the packages so that end users can mix and match any set of packages 
while increasing the availability of packages within the ISO images.

>  Bluecurve makes me remember Red Hat 9, GNOME or KDE, of both?
>  yes is a theme, could not be a valid argument. SimpleKDe is the best 
>  option for a single cd installer. If some one wants gnome download it
>  and run it! 
Bluecurve has not been the default theme for Gnome since Fedora Core 3. 
Both KDE and GNOME is provided within Fedora Core and other desktop 
environments within Fedora Extras.

>  Non technical tips
>  When we make a critic is not possible to split the Fedora roadmap 
>  around non technical issues. Strategy for US based countries
>  is not the option. 
Not sure what you mean here. Red Hat and Fedora Foundation are US based 
entities and increasingly a global presence. In every region Fedora is 
being distributed the strategies will have to evolve around the local 
laws and culture among other things.

>  Non intuitive wiki, 
What is non intuitive about http://fedoraproject.org/wiki?

>  non subdomains for localized Fedora Community (fedoraproject.org/us 
>  /chile /germany 
There are already several domains available. A partial list is available 
at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CommunityWebsites. You can contact 
Elliot Lee (sopwith At redhat.com) for setting up other sites if you are 
interested in that.

>  with a centralized CMS system, etc... 
This is work in progress. Refer to 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/CMS and 
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2006-January/msg00091...

>  No book of spread fedora, slides rules, motivation program for
> ambassador 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Books and 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Presentations. Ambassadors are largely 
enthusiastic and self motivated people. We depend on ambassadors to 
motivate others and get them interested and involved with Fedora.

>  , tools for get
>  more people around FOSS.  
Use Fedora. That is the biggest tool for you to get everyone with FOSS.

-- 
Rahul 

Fedora Bug Triaging - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

> I have to agree with that.. a one-disc install would be nice. I
> noticed
> that Debian/Ubuntu gets packages from the internet - why can't Fedora? (If
> people want the packages on CD, then I think the 4 CD pack/1 DVD is still
> quite nice) - why can't we have both?
>
>
> Clair
>  
Every version of Fedora has support for a network installation which 
supports http/ftp/nfs and even vnc.Anaconda has been providing this for 
a long long time. Maybe you guys could read the installation guide at 
http://fedora.redhat.com/docs.

-- 
Rahul 

Fedora Bug Triaging - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers

[Clair]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  Hi
>
> >I have to agree with that.. a one-disc install would be nice. I noticed
> >that Debian/Ubuntu gets packages from the internet - why can't Fedora?
> > (If
> >people want the packages on CD, then I think the 4 CD pack/1 DVD is still
> >quite nice) - why can't we have both?
> >
> >
> >Clair
> >
>  Every version of Fedora has support for a network installation which
>  supports http/ftp/nfs and even vnc.Anaconda has been providing this for
>  a long long time. Maybe you guys could read the installation guide at
>  http://fedora.redhat.com/docs. 
Indeed, but it's hidden in the startup options, and you have to have an
address to download from. If you aren't aware of the installation guides
out there, then you may not even be aware network installation exists.

Why can't we have the askmethod option on by default (and also a default
download site)?


Clair

[Rahul Sundaram]

Clair wrote:

> Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>   
>
> >Hi
> >
> >    
> >
> >>I have to agree with that.. a one-disc install would be nice. I noticed
> >>that Debian/Ubuntu gets packages from the internet - why can't Fedora?
> >>(If
> >>people want the packages on CD, then I think the 4 CD pack/1 DVD is still
> >>quite nice) - why can't we have both?
> >>
> >>
> >>Clair
> >>
> >>      
> >>
> >Every version of Fedora has support for a network installation which
> >supports http/ftp/nfs and even vnc.Anaconda has been providing this for
> >a long long time. Maybe you guys could read the installation guide at
> >http://fedora.redhat.com/docs.
> >    
> >
>
> Indeed, but it's hidden in the startup options, and you have to have an
> address to download from. If you aren't aware of the installation guides
> out there, then you may not even be aware network installation exists.
>
> Why can't we have the askmethod option on by default (and also a default
> download site)?
>   
>  
We could but we just havent done the underlying work involved. This is a 
unresourced goal at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/AnacondaWorkItems

-- 
Rahul 

Fedora Bug Triaging - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers

[Pablo Barrera Franco]

All the FOSS community have a very BIG problem. We develope software 
thinking about what WE WANT from an Operating System and not what
the People NEED to use. That´s why Linux doesnt grow on desktop 
acceptance for example.

So I am disagree with some things I will put all the quotes and my opinion.

On 2/21/06, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:

We have to tell Linux users we (Fedora) have the BEST technical
support, besides talking we must act too of course.

- Exactly, we have the best support but PEOPLE DOESNT KNOW IT. We are not intuitive for
Support! If some one needs
support for Fedora in Wiki, they mus to learn to use the wiki first to make a consult.
Like ambassador responsability
could be usefull a direct chat via web available for countries for example. People needs
RIGHT NOW support. IRC channels
has too much Benevolent Despotism, and no too much kind to support ¨not open source
users¨. 


Clair says

I actually like Anaconda. It's easy to use.

- yes, but doesnt have minimal functions like resize partitions in a 
easy way. A windows users need to make space for their discs with another
tools. It is not necesary if we have a default resizing tool. 
Enhacements are useful, but better usefull it they are includes.

Eurgh.. I hate SuSE's control panel...

- I hate it too, but dont think about you think about people.


I have to agree with that.. a one-disc install would be nice. I noticed 
that Debian/Ubuntu gets packages from the internet - why can't Fedora? 
(If people want the packages on CD, then I think the 4 CD pack/1 DVD is 
still quite nice) - why can't we have both? Clair

- Sounds better.

 

Rahul says

We are unlikely to drop years of work wholesale. Lets be realistic about 
things. What would be better is to use the anaconda mailing list and 
bugzilla to discuss ideas for enhancements. The current plans are 
available at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/AnacondaWorkItems.

-Somebody ask for critics, everybody know the best place to discuss. I 
give you my critics.


Try out system-config-control in Fedora Extras.


- PEOPLE need the things solve. People will have the time to discover 
the imrpovements if we make more easy the startup...


System-config-network and Firestarter in Fedora Extras can be used for 
this.

Centralized! Centralized!. Just like Mandriva!!! Just like SuSE! Its not 
an style concern, its a user aceptance business.


>  ,
>  No Cuztomization of services, 

System-config-services.

CENTRALIZED!!!!! :-)

>  , bad Network manager, 

You will have to file bugs if you find anything bad. That would be a 
good way to provide feedback to the developers on improving it

- Not talking about bugs, talking about non intuitive manner to 
configure network!


>  no wizzards,  

Pretty much all of the graphical tools within Fedora (system-config*, 
pirut etc) are intended to provide

- SuSE and Mandriva are ¨sons¨of Red Hat. Why they are doing the things 
better than this in this tips?. Red Hat is the Open Source Leader.
The Open Source Number One company. But certaing improvements are better 
in other distributions. Ironic, too much ironic.

>  no integrated GUI Firewall (firestarter could be an option) 

System-config-securitylevel which is also integrated within Anaconda 
provides this functionality

Centralized! :'(

>  Up2date? Yum extender? or KLIK!
>  Yes, we have klik a MacOS style installer. A synaptic like interface 
>  with rpm packages is the best option. Yum extender even is not
>  official is worst than Synaptic. 

Pup provides a updater and Pirut provides package management within 
Fedora Core 5. If you would like to integrate Klik go right ahead.

-we have a missundertood here. I pacth myself my own fedora and my 
customers machines. I am talking about usability for external users.
for official releases. Still i am working with goverment here and we are 
making a Real Fedora Desktop and Server with all this tools, because
the official path doesnt have the intention to improve this. Integrate 
means in this critic, INTEGRATE FOR EVERYONE. (think about people...)


Its not installed by default anymore from Fedora Core 5 and likely to be 
dropped in Fedora Core 6.

- Better


A single CD can be used for a minimal installation. Only 2 CD's  are 
required for a desktop installation. Yum isnt as useful as ISO images in 
many places. The longer team goal would be a effective reorganization of 
the packages so that end users can mix and match any set of packages 
while increasing the availability of packages within the ISO images.

- You know that it is possible to put one fully functional Linux in one 
CD. Dont kid me please :-)


Bluecurve has not been the default theme for Gnome since Fedora Core 3. 
Both KDE and GNOME is provided within Fedora Core and other desktop 
environments within Fedora Extras.

- Think about people....dont think about you....

>  Non technical tips
>  When we make a critic is not possible to split the Fedora roadmap 
>  around non technical issues. Strategy for US based countries
>  is not the option. 

Not sure what you mean here. Red Hat and Fedora Foundation are US based 
entities and increasingly a global presence. In every region Fedora is 
being distributed the strategies will have to evolve around the local 
laws and culture among other things.

- US to the world strategy will not work.  Increasing global presence 
doesnt guarranty the success. The dinamic of spread Fedora has too much 
US style. And US style
will not work in nonUS countries. Its about philosophy. (its about the 
incapability form US based projecto to not see the reality, the USbased 
methods for spread Open Source doesnt work in other places...) Global 
strategy for difussion is the key...

>  Non intuitive wiki, 

What is non intuitive about http://fedoraproject.org/wiki?


- Think about a newcommer to Open Source and Fedora. Think about a 
newcommer to Wiki technologies. Think about people. Moin Moin is for 
Developers and Power Users to Developers and power users. If you have 
policies to spread Fedora, a CMS with simple and direct information, 
will be more simple to get Open Source ideas and resources. Make simple 
to people. (Think about newcommer).

>  non subdomains for localized Fedora Community (fedoraproject.org/us 
>  /chile /germany 

There are already several domains available. A partial list is available 
at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CommunityWebsites. You can contact 
Elliot Lee (sopwith At redhat.com) for setting up other sites if you are 
interested in that.

-Excellent!

>  with a centralized CMS system, etc... 

This is work in progress. Refer to 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/CMS and 
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2006-January/msg00091... 


- I offer my help, but nobody answer my mails...:-8


>  No book of spread fedora, slides rules, motivation program for
> ambassador 

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Books and 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Presentations. Ambassadors are largely 
enthusiastic and self motivated people. We depend on ambassadors to 
motivate others and get them interested and involved with Fedora.

- I read it. Too much complex, not good indexing. In spite of this next 
march when fedora core argentina site will be available i will show what 
i am talking about.

>  , tools for get
>  more people around FOSS.  

Use Fedora. That is the biggest tool for you to get everyone with FOSS.

- Think in Free Software, Develope in Open Source world, Use GNU/Linux, 
and Fedora will be the tool to spread the idea, the concept, the model 
and the advantages.
Linux IS NOT a product. Is a process alive!


Anyway its good exchange opinions dont you think?
Think about people....we are not too much different that other 
ones....we are not saviors...we are leaders....

-- 
Pablo Barrera Franco 
Fedora Ambassador Argentina
--
pablo(a)barrerafranco.com.ar
http://www.barrerafranco.com.ar
--
IM   : pablo.barrera(a)jabber.org
Skype: p.barrera
Cel  : +54 11 [15] 6187 1603

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

>  Try out system-config-control in Fedora Extras.
>
>
>  - PEOPLE need the things solve. People will have the time to discover 
>  the imrpovements if we make more easy the startup... 
I am unable to understand that. Someone will have to translate it for me.

>  Centralized! Centralized!. Just like Mandriva!!! Just like SuSE! Its 
>  not an style concern, its a user aceptance business. 
Again look at system-config-control and suggest specific improvements in 
bugzilla

>  You will have to file bugs if you find anything bad. That would be a 
>  good way to provide feedback to the developers on improving it
>
>  - Not talking about bugs, talking about non intuitive manner to 
>  configure network! 
If it is non intuitive, thats a bug. File it, report it, discuss it with 
the developers.

>  - SuSE and Mandriva are ¨sons¨of Red Hat. 
Thats a common myth. While Mandriva long ago was derived from Red Hat 
Linux. SUSE is not and they are pretty much independent organizations 
with their own policies at work now.

> > no integrated GUI Firewall (firestarter could be an option) 
>
>
>  -we have a missundertood here. I pacth myself my own fedora and my 
>  customers machines. I am talking about usability for external users.
>  for official releases. Still i am working with goverment here and we 
>  are making a Real Fedora Desktop and Server with all this tools, because
>  the official path doesnt have the intention to improve this. Integrate 
>  means in this critic, INTEGRATE FOR EVERYONE. (think about people...) 
It is available for everyone by default  from Fedora Core 5.

>  - You know that it is possible to put one fully functional Linux in 
>  one CD. Dont kid me please :-) 
Definitely but we cannot provide all the functionality we provide in 4 
or 5 CD's in a single CD.  We dont to provide more choice and expand the 
software packages in Fedora while letting end users pick and choose any 
of those CD's to install software they want. 

>  Bluecurve has not been the default theme for Gnome since Fedora Core 
>  3. Both KDE and GNOME is provided within Fedora Core and other desktop 
>  environments within Fedora Extras.
>
>  - Think about people....dont think about you.... 
Dont understand this again.

>  What is non intuitive about http://fedoraproject.org/wiki?
>
>
>  - Think about a newcommer to Open Source and Fedora. Think about a 
>  newcommer to Wiki technologies. Think about people. Moin Moin is for 
>  Developers and Power Users to Developers and power users. If you have 
>  policies to spread Fedora, a CMS with simple and direct information, 
>  will be more simple to get Open Source ideas and resources. Make 
>  simple to people. (Think about newcommer). 
It is pretty simple to use.  Pretty much all of the links and content is 
available from the front page in about 2 or 3 clicks. If you suggest 
specific changes or better yet contribute, we can help improve it.

>  This is work in progress. Refer to 
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/CMS and 
>  http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2006-January/msg00091... 
>
>
>  - I offer my help, but nobody answer my mails...:-8 
I havent seen your mails. Post again maybe.

>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Books and 
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Presentations. Ambassadors are largely 
>  enthusiastic and self motivated people. We depend on ambassadors to 
>  motivate others and get them interested and involved with Fedora.
>
>  - I read it. Too much complex, not good indexing. In spite of this 
>  next march when fedora core argentina site will be available i will 
>  show what i am talking about. 
Doing is better than talking most of the time I guess.

-- 
Rahul 

Fedora Bug Triaging - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers

[Pablo Barrera Franco]

Doing is better than talking most of the time I guess.

- you ask for critics, you get the critics...I am not absolutely agree 
with you. But sometimes is good not to be agree...

Pablo Barrera Franco 
Fedora Ambassador Argentina
--
pablo(a)barrerafranco.com.ar
http://www.barrerafranco.com.ar
--
IM   : pablo.barrera(a)jabber.org
Skype: p.barrera
Cel  : +54 11 [15] 6187 1603

[Pawel Sadowski]

Hi,

>  >I have to agree with that.. a one-disc install would be nice. I
>  noticed
>  >that Debian/Ubuntu gets packages from the internet - why can't
>  Fedora? (If
>  >people want the packages on CD, then I think the 4 CD pack/1 DVD is
>  still
>  >quite nice) - why can't we have both?
>  >
>  >
>  >Clair
>  >
>  Every version of Fedora has support for a network installation which 
>  supports http/ftp/nfs and even vnc.Anaconda has been providing this
>  for 
>  a long long time. Maybe you guys could read the installation guide at 
>  http://fedora.redhat.com/docs.
>  
>  -- 
>  Rahul 
I agree with Rahul, the system on 4 CDs or one DVD is a good solution.
And for those, who want to install needed packages via the Internet,
there is a network installation available. But the official Live CD
would be something wonderful :)


>  Anaconda no more! 
I don't agree at this poing. I personally like Anaconda and I think we
should continue using and improving this installer, it's also respecting
of Fedora's history. I think we should avoid importing solutions from
other distros, it's important to save our origin (you know what I
mean...). We should rather focus on improving our ideas and inventions.


>  Bluecurve makes me remember Red Hat 9, GNOME or KDE, of both?
>  yes is a theme, could not be a valid argument. SimpleKDe is the best 
>  option for a single cd installer. If some one wants gnome download it
>  and run it!
>  
>  How to replace
>  KDE simple is the next generation of desktop or XPDE,,,,(more better, 
>  faster and cheaper (Mathew dixit in Summit 2005) 
I like GNOME and the Bluecurve theme. In my opinion GNOME should be
still a default graphical environment. The two environments should be
available during the installation and if somebody wants KDE, he can
choose it.

That's my opinion. We should respect our history and traditions.
That's all :)

Regards,
Pawel Sadowski

[Thomas Canniot]

Le mardi 21 février 2006 à 18:37 +0100, Pawel Sadowski a écrit :
Hi, 
>  I agree with Rahul, the system on 4 CDs or one DVD is a good
> solution.
>  And for those, who want to install needed packages via the Internet,
>  there is a network installation available. But the official Live CD
>  would be something wonderful :)
>   
I think that a one cd installation like ubuntu is NOT a good idea for
the simple reason that on a single disc, the packages that we have to
get rid of are the language packages. And if these packages are needed
during the installation, like ubuntu, an internet connection is
required. But many people do not have an ethernet connexion with dhcp.
Many still have a usb modem, which make impossible the download and make
the distribution harder to configure.

>  
>  > Anaconda no more!
>  
>  I don't agree at this poing. I personally like Anaconda and I think we
>  should continue using and improving this installer, it's also respecting
>  of Fedora's history. I think we should avoid importing solutions from
>  other distros, it's important to save our origin (you know what I
>  mean...). We should rather focus on improving our ideas and inventions.
>   
I like anaconda very much, far more than Mandriva's installer. However
it needs improvements with yum, through bug report, on speed i think.

>  
>  > Bluecurve makes me remember Red Hat 9, GNOME or KDE, of both?
>  > yes is a theme, could not be a valid argument. SimpleKDe is the best 
>  > option for a single cd installer. If some one wants gnome download it
>  > and run it!
>  > 
>  > How to replace
>  > KDE simple is the next generation of desktop or XPDE,,,,(more better, 
>  > faster and cheaper (Mathew dixit in Summit 2005)
>  
>  I like GNOME and the Bluecurve theme. In my opinion GNOME should be
>  still a default graphical environment. The two environments should be
>  available during the installation and if somebody wants KDE, he can
>  choose it. 
The theme question is not a relevant topic from my point of view as
themes can be changed in a very easy way.

>  That's my opinion. We should respect our history and traditions.
>  That's all :)
>  
>  Regards,
>  Pawel Sadowski 
Regards,

Thomas Canniot

>  --
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list

[Aurelien Bompard]

>  What is the best
>  criticisms that you can put forward on areas that Fedora needs to
>  improve? How do we improve on those? 
My take would be hardware support : 
 - wireless drivers, too young to be included in the mainline kernel (for 
example rt2xx)
 - usb adsl modems, to young or specific to be included in mainline kernel 
(for example eagle-usb)
 - all the unofficial drivers out there, which are not in the mainline 
kernel. (for example webcam drivers, etc...)

If we had more kernel module packages included in core for every possible 
driver, we'd gain a lot of home users (they can't be in extras if they're 
needed for network connectivity).
A kernel package specfile template has been aggreed on recently, but IFAICT 
it's only for Extras.


Aurélien
-- 
http://aurelien.bompard.org  ~~~~  Jabber : abompard(a)jabber.fr
"Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their work to an ftp server
and have everybody mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds

>  I think that a one cd installation like ubuntu is NOT a good idea
> for
>  the simple reason that on a single disc, the packages that we have to
>  get rid of are the language packages. And if these packages are needed
>  during the installation, like ubuntu, an internet connection is
>  required. But many people do not have an ethernet connexion with dhcp.
>  Many still have a usb modem, which make impossible the download and make
>  the distribution harder to configure. 
Yes, its true, its a valid argument.


I think we should avoid importing solutions from
> > other distros, it's important to save our origin (you know
> what I
> > mean...). 
Every open source software are the same family, even I think that take some
things better developed form other distros is not a sin. Sometimes tradition
destroy the capabilitie to grow for the common users.But i respect your
position.

We should rather focus on improving our ideas and inventions.
> >
>  I like anaconda very much, far more than Mandriva's installer. However
>  it needs improvements with yum, through bug report, on speed i think. 
I think that a resize disk tool could complete de installer.


> > That's my opinion. We should respect our history and
> traditions.
> > That's all :) 
Open Source World is a place for creativity and Bazar situations. I respect
tradition keeping the source code Open. But if you create or improve something
better for all the users and you dont do that because of "history", tradition
become more important than functionallity. If the source code is Open, is Open
Source. So its the same for me . I think that we must respect tradition, but
give more heavy arguments than " I like" or " Avoid solutions from other
distros". Before say "I like", we must say " this will help users to
adopt
Linux ?" If the answer is yes, in spite of the things that I Like, or I try to
avoid, so the target, the purpose destroy the tradition.

This kind of differencies, generates more and more distros, and a lot 
of distros
become confusing for the people. To spread Open Source Technology we need to
leave behind RPM vs DEB discussions. We need to go to Open or Not OPen
discussions. Open Source Community and Free Software Society must leave behind
teen age to enter in the adult age.

Anyway I respect a lot the tradition in somethings. And Its for me too much
positive to exchange opinions. Even the differences, this motivate me more a
more to spread Fedora. I love Fedora, and I want it better than today!

PabloBarrera



> >
> > Regards,
> > Pawel Sadowski
>  Regards,
>
>  Thomas Canniot
>
> > --
> > Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
> > Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
>
>  --
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
>

[Chitlesh GOORAH]

>   - usb adsl modems, to young or specific to be included in mainline
> kernel
>  (for example eagle-usb) 
Im for eagle-usb support. In Mauritius too, linux guys need this.


--
http://clunixchit.blogspot.com

[David Barzilay]

Em Ter, 2006-02-21 às 13:38 -0300, Pablo Barrera Franco escreveu:
>  All the FOSS community have a very BIG problem. We develope software
>
>  thinking about what WE WANT from an Operating System and not what
>  the People NEED to use. That´s why Linux doesnt grow on desktop 
>  acceptance for example. 
Hi Pablo and All,

I wanna take this topic discussion further.

Long ago I realised we got a confusing Marketing positioning (not even
talking about a plan yet).

It is time for us, as Ambassadors, to define our target. In other words,
to better understand who are the potential Fedora users.

No! I don't accept that answer that everyone is a potential Fedora user.
Sorry, but I think that getting grandmas to use open source shouldn't be
our focus...nothing against them, please (I was raised by my granny)

That said, I have an idea of who we should focus on from observing and
experiencing Fedora communities in the last 3 years.

The way I see it, if we want to hit the masses, highly technical people
shouldn't be part of our "focus groups". But IT students and teachers,
education and government computer users, enthusiasts and newcomers from
different walks of life.

Personally, I believe we ought to target normal users, not developers,
sys admins, IT consultants, etc.

Hang on! I'm not going against all techies here (I wouldn't dare). But
techies know how and where to get info and help while normal users are
totally lost in the open source arena.

We need to define once and for all who should we approach (maybe
different targets in different situations), otherwise our actions will
get lost in space with our dispersed communications.

Thoughts?

Best,
--
db

[Thorsten Leemhuis]

Am Dienstag, den 21.02.2006, 19:38 +0100 schrieb Aurelien Bompard:
>  > What is the best
>  > criticisms that you can put forward on areas that Fedora needs to
>  > improve? How do we improve on those?
>  
>  My take would be hardware support : 
>   - wireless drivers, too young to be included in the mainline kernel (for 
>  example rt2xx)
>   - usb adsl modems, to young or specific to be included in mainline kernel 
>  (for example eagle-usb)
>   - all the unofficial drivers out there, which are not in the mainline 
>  kernel. (for example webcam drivers, etc...) 
Rhetoric: Well, if they are not good enough for the kernel, why should
they be good enough for Fedora users? The problem here IMHO is that
those project first try to write a complete and full featured driver and
then try to merge it with the kernel. That often does not work. Look at
LKML, you'll find enough examples. Someone should tell those project:
"If the USB-Modem driver works basically try to merge it with the
kernel. After that was done start to enhance it. That's better for
everyone."

>  If we had more kernel module packages included in core for every
> possible 
>  driver, we'd gain a lot of home users (they can't be in extras if they're 
>  needed for network connectivity). 
I don't think you'll get them included in Core. But having them in
Extras is better then nothing.

>  A kernel package specfile template has been aggreed on recently, but
> IFAICT 
>  it's only for Extras. 
The goal was to use the same scheme in Core, too (e.g. for GFS). But
some people want to shove GFS to Extras, too (AFAIK). 

CU
thl

[Aurelien Bompard]

>  Rhetoric: Well, if they are not good enough for the kernel, why
> should
>  they be good enough for Fedora users? 
Sure that is the official reason. But go tell that to someone who does not 
have internet connection with Fedora, but does with Ubuntu/Mandriva/SuSE. 
He won't think Fedora is a higher-quality distribution, quite the contrary.

If a user has to choose between "not working" and "working but could
crash", 
I'm pretty sure he won't hesitate long.

>  The problem here IMHO is that 
>  those project first try to write a complete and full featured driver and
>  then try to merge it with the kernel. That often does not work. Look at
>  LKML, you'll find enough examples. Someone should tell those project:
>  "If the USB-Modem driver works basically try to merge it with the
>  kernel. After that was done start to enhance it. That's better for
>  everyone." 
But merging a driver in the kernel can take a long time. People with a new 
USB modem need the internet access as fast as possible.

>  I don't think you'll get them included in Core. But having
> them in
>  Extras is better then nothing. 
Right. But the best way would be to have them in core, or available on the 
install CDs. After all, first it has to enter Extras, then it can possibly 
go in Core.

Thanks for your input anyway

Aurélien
-- 
http://aurelien.bompard.org  ~~~~  Jabber : abompard(a)jabber.fr
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook

[Rahul Sundaram]

Aurelien Bompard wrote:

> >Rhetoric: Well, if they are not good enough for the kernel, why
> should
> >they be good enough for Fedora users?
> >    
> >
>
> Sure that is the official reason. But go tell that to someone who does not 
> have internet connection with Fedora, but does with Ubuntu/Mandriva/SuSE. 
> He won't think Fedora is a higher-quality distribution, quite the contrary.
>
> If a user has to choose between "not working" and "working but could
> crash", 
> I'm pretty sure he won't hesitate long.
>   
>  
Long term maintenance triumphs features in both upstream kernel and in 
Fedora. It is important that we recognize that the pace that we move in 
is inherently tied to staying close to the upstream sources. If we 
deviate we will have a bunch of kernel patches that will conflict with 
the new version and we wouldnt be able to release anything till we fix 
those or have people struck up on the old releases because the patches 
havent caught up.  I have had similar questions asked in FUDCon recently 
and it does take a bit more time to explain and everybody who bothered 
to listen to the explanation went away satisfied. This is very similar 
to the way we deal with Winmodems for example.

>  But merging a driver in the kernel can take a long time. People with
> a 
>  new
>
> USB modem need the internet access as fast as possible.
>   
>  
Doing the right thing can sometimes mean waiting for the solution to be 
properly done.

-- 
Rahul 

Fedora Bug Triaging - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers

[Rodrigo Menezes]

I still think that all we need is (not love) documentation, in local language, translated
or created to local users.

For example, in Brazil, is hard to find someone who read English (speak is even harder).
We need a local documentation, not too technical. Something to help new users, that only
know the Power Button, the MSN program and Internet Explorer. This is our biggest target
and biggest challenge.

Doesn't matter if all technician users start using Fedora, the biggest target still
the normal user, that almost doesn't use a computer.

Rodrigo Menezes



David Barzilay <barzilay(a)redhat.com&gt; escreveu: Em Ter, 2006-02-21 às 13:38 -0300,
Pablo Barrera Franco escreveu:
>  All the FOSS community have a very BIG problem. We develope software
>
>  thinking about what WE WANT from an Operating System and not what
>  the People NEED to use. That´s why Linux doesnt grow on desktop 
>  acceptance for example. 
Hi Pablo and All,

I wanna take this topic discussion further.

Long ago I realised we got a confusing Marketing positioning (not even
talking about a plan yet).

It is time for us, as Ambassadors, to define our target. In other words,
to better understand who are the potential Fedora users.

No! I don't accept that answer that everyone is a potential Fedora user.
Sorry, but I think that getting grandmas to use open source shouldn't be
our focus...nothing against them, please (I was raised by my granny)

That said, I have an idea of who we should focus on from observing and
experiencing Fedora communities in the last 3 years.

The way I see it, if we want to hit the masses, highly technical people
shouldn't be part of our "focus groups". But IT students and teachers,
education and government computer users, enthusiasts and newcomers from
different walks of life.

Personally, I believe we ought to target normal users, not developers,
sys admins, IT consultants, etc.

Hang on! I'm not going against all techies here (I wouldn't dare). But
techies know how and where to get info and help while normal users are
totally lost in the open source arena.

We need to define once and for all who should we approach (maybe
different targets in different situations), otherwise our actions will
get lost in space with our dispersed communications.

Thoughts?

Best,
--
db


--
Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list


		
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 Yahoo! Acesso Grátis 
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[Rodrigo Menezes]

And wizzards are another key feature.

Rodrigo Menezes <rodrigomenezes12(a)yahoo.com.br&gt; escreveu: I still think that all we
need is (not love) documentation, in local language, translated or created to local
users.

For example, in Brazil, is hard to find someone who read English (speak is even harder).
We need a local documentation, not too technical. Something to help new users, that only
know the Power Button, the MSN program and Internet Explorer. This is our biggest target
and biggest challenge.

Doesn't matter if all technician users start using Fedora, the biggest target still
the normal user, that almost doesn't use a computer.

Rodrigo Menezes



David Barzilay <barzilay(a)redhat.com&gt; escreveu: Em Ter, 2006-02-21 às 13:38 -0300,
Pablo Barrera Franco escreveu:
>  All the FOSS community have a very BIG problem. We develope software
>
>  thinking about what W! E WANT  from an Operating System and not what
>  the People NEED to use. That´s why Linux doesnt grow on desktop 
>  acceptance for example. 
Hi Pablo and All,

I wanna take this topic discussion further.

Long ago I realised we got a confusing Marketing positioning (not even
talking about a plan yet).

It is time for us, as Ambassadors, to define our target. In other words,
to better understand who are the potential Fedora users.

No! I don't accept that answer that everyone is a potential Fedora user.
Sorry, but I think that getting grandmas to use open source shouldn't be
our focus...nothing against them, please (I was raised by my granny)

That said, I have an idea of who we should focus on from observing and
experiencing Fedora communities in the last 3 years.

The way I see it, if we want to hit the masses, highly technical people
shouldn't be part of our "focus groups". But IT students and teachers,
edu! cation  and government computer users, enthusiasts and newcomers from
different walks of life.

Personally, I believe we ought to target normal users, not developers,
sys admins, IT consultants, etc.

Hang on! I'm not going against all techies here (I wouldn't dare). But
techies know how and where to get info and help while normal users are
totally lost in the open source arena.

We need to define once and for all who should we approach (maybe
different targets in different situations), otherwise our actions will
get lost in space with our dispersed communications.

Thoughts?

Best,
--
db


--
Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list

   

---------------------------------
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 Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora!--
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---------------------------------
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