Issue raised at 2nd FAmSCo townhall

[Larry Cafiero]

Hello, all --

I was unable to attend the second FAmSCo town hall -- to be honest, it was
at 2 a.m. my time and I fell asleep before it started -- and while I don't
have any specific disagreements with any of the other candidates'
statements, I do have a significant problem with this one:

11:25:08 <kaio> 2. I would rephrase that into "Upgrade the ambassadors
to superambassadors." - multi-functional ambassadors
who specialize also in something they prefer: Development, Design,
Documentation, Infrastructure, Testing, Marketing,
Release, etc. I expect superambassadors are keen to share their
knowledge and experiences via presentations and
discussions in meet-ups.

I am not sure what this suggestion means. Does it mean making a higher
"level" of ambassador membership? Taking this back to front, don't
ambassadors already "share their knowledge and experience via presentations
and discussions in meet-ups"? My understanding is that many Ambassadors wear
several hats in the Fedora Project (no pun intended -- no, really) -- and
while we all contribute to the Ambassador program at our own level, it's
expected thatt $AMBASSADOR_A who knows x, y, z is already imparting that
knowledge at presentations, etc., s/he is doing.

In other words, the multifunction aspect here is already in place and should
be a part of an individual Ambassador's toolkit when s/he advocates for FOSS
in general and Fedora in particular.

Again, if this is a suggestion to make a different, possibly higher, tier of
ambassador, I am completely against it.

We are already trying to dispel a myth that the mentors in FAmSCo hold some
sort of special "rank and privilege" within the organizational structure of
FAmSCo. The last thing we need is to add fuel to this inequality "fire" by
adding ranks where none should exist.

Larry Cafiero

[Caius 'kaio' Chance]

Hi Larry,

2010/11/20 Larry Cafiero <larry.cafiero(a)gmail.com&gt;

>  11:25:08 <kaio> 2. I would rephrase that into "Upgrade the
> ambassadors to superambassadors." - multi-functional ambassadors
>  who specialize also in something they prefer: Development, Design, Documentation,
> Infrastructure, Testing, Marketing,
>
>  Release, etc. I expect superambassadors are keen to share their knowledge and experiences
> via presentations and
>  discussions in meet-ups.
>
>  I am not sure what this suggestion means. Does it mean making a higher
>  "level" of ambassador membership? Taking this back to front, don't
>  ambassadors already "share their knowledge and experience via presentations
>  and discussions in meet-ups"? My understanding is that many Ambassadors wear
>  several hats in the Fedora Project (no pun intended -- no, really) -- and
>  while we all contribute to the Ambassador program at our own level, it's
>  expected thatt $AMBASSADOR_A who knows x, y, z is already imparting that
>  knowledge at presentations, etc., s/he is doing.
>  
I was not proposing an extra level of ambassador membership. I was talking
about the ambassadors who joined the Ambassadors group without much
Fedora/Linux backgrounds. We see many Fedora contributors become
ambassadors, and I also want to see if we could help those who started from
the opposite way (Join as ambassadors -> contributors in another team).

There are people who likes FOSS/Fedora and wants to promote it, as users.


>  In other words, the multifunction aspect here is already in place and
>  should be a part of an individual Ambassador's toolkit when s/he advocates
>  for FOSS in general and Fedora in particular.
>
>  Again, if this is a suggestion to make a different, possibly higher, tier
>  of ambassador, I am completely against it.
>  
No. I am also completely against it. No way for more tiers of ambassador
from here.

k

-- 
Regards ☺ Caius 'kaio' Chance
Fedora Project Contributor - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kaio
[IRC] kaio @ freenode | [Twitter] @K410 | [Blog] kaio.net

[Larry Cafiero]

Thank you for clearing that up, kaio, and I'm glad we're on the same page
:-)

One of the strengths of the Ambassador program is that in many instances we
serve as a stepping stone for people who want to expand their talents in
other facets of the project. In my opinion, I think that's a good thing.
Ideally, people who start out as Ambassadors and end up also working in Docs
or Infrastructure or Testing don't forget their Ambassador "roots."

Larry Cafiero

2010/11/19 Caius 'kaio' Chance <kaio(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;

>  Hi Larry,
>
>  2010/11/20 Larry Cafiero <larry.cafiero(a)gmail.com&gt;
>
>  11:25:08 <kaio> 2. I would rephrase that into "Upgrade the ambassadors to
> superambassadors." - multi-functional ambassadors
> >
> > who specialize also in something they prefer: Development, Design, Documentation,
> Infrastructure, Testing, Marketing,
> >
> > Release, etc. I expect superambassadors are keen to share their knowledge and
> experiences via presentations and
> > discussions in meet-ups.
> >
> > I am not sure what this suggestion means. Does it mean making a higher
> > "level" of ambassador membership? Taking this back to front, don't
> > ambassadors already "share their knowledge and experience via presentations
> > and discussions in meet-ups"? My understanding is that many Ambassadors wear
> > several hats in the Fedora Project (no pun intended -- no, really) -- and
> > while we all contribute to the Ambassador program at our own level, it's
> > expected thatt $AMBASSADOR_A who knows x, y, z is already imparting that
> > knowledge at presentations, etc., s/he is doing.
> >
>
>  I was not proposing an extra level of ambassador membership. I was talking
>  about the ambassadors who joined the Ambassadors group without much
>  Fedora/Linux backgrounds. We see many Fedora contributors become
>  ambassadors, and I also want to see if we could help those who started from
>  the opposite way (Join as ambassadors -> contributors in another team).
>
>  There are people who likes FOSS/Fedora and wants to promote it, as users.
>
>
> >
> > In other words, the multifunction aspect here is already in place and
> > should be a part of an individual Ambassador's toolkit when s/he advocates
> > for FOSS in general and Fedora in particular.
> >
> > Again, if this is a suggestion to make a different, possibly higher, tier
> > of ambassador, I am completely against it.
> >
>
>  No. I am also completely against it. No way for more tiers of ambassador
>  from here.
>
>  k
>
>  --
>  Regards ☺ Caius 'kaio' Chance
>  Fedora Project Contributor - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kaio
>  [IRC] kaio @ freenode | [Twitter] @K410 | [Blog] kaio.net
>
>
>  --
>  ambassadors mailing list
>  ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>

[Neville A. Cross]

2010/11/19 Larry Cafiero <larry.cafiero(a)gmail.com&gt;:
>  Thank you for clearing that up, kaio, and I'm glad we're on
> the same page
>  :-)
>
>  One of the strengths of the Ambassador program is that in many instances we
>  serve as a stepping stone for people who want to expand their talents in
>  other facets of the project. In my opinion, I think that's a good thing.
>  Ideally, people who start out as Ambassadors and end up also working in Docs
>  or Infrastructure or Testing don't forget their Ambassador "roots."
>
>  Larry Cafiero 
Today I was asked once more off list how to achieve that mentor status.

I was thinking that one of the standards, milestones or proof of being
ready to be mentor may be that the ambassador has conducted one
workshop (live or IRC) of ambassadors tips and training. There has
been three or four of such workshops on fedora-class room. I think
that this is not a full anwser, and do not solve all the questions
raised around this topic. But it may be one point among others to
discuss.

Something along the line... "If you feel ready to face a bunch of
people to tell them how to conduct as ambassador, and also reply
inreal time any question they may have about that, then you are
getting closer to be candidate to be mentor"

I am offering this as suggestion, to be part of a more complex
explanation of the people/soft skills expected from ambassadors who
takes this extra work.

best regards

-- 
Neville
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v
Linux User # 473217

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[Caius 'kaio' Chance]

2010/11/21 Neville A. Cross <nacross(a)gmail.com&gt;

>  Today I was asked once more off list how to achieve that mentor status.
>
>  I was thinking that one of the standards, milestones or proof of being
>  ready to be mentor may be that the ambassador has conducted one
>  workshop (live or IRC) of ambassadors tips and training. There has
>  been three or four of such workshops on fedora-class room. I think
>  that this is not a full anwser, and do not solve all the questions
>  raised around this topic. But it may be one point among others to
>  discuss.
>
>  Something along the line... "If you feel ready to face a bunch of
>  people to tell them how to conduct as ambassador, and also reply
>  inreal time any question they may have about that, then you are
>  getting closer to be candidate to be mentor"
>
>  I am offering this as suggestion, to be part of a more complex
>  explanation of the people/soft skills expected from ambassadors who
>  takes this extra work.
>
>  
IMHO, the requirements to become a mentors could be put into three parts:


   - Organizationally, mentor knows the procedures of checks listed on the
   FP wiki pages, such as FAS account set up, CLA cert set up, user page on
   wiki, subscription of ambassador list, etc.

   - Spiritually, mentor knows the meanings of ambassadors beyond code of
   conduct on the FP wiki pages, such as how to find and fit in the existing
   Fedora or general Linux community in their town/city/country, how to
   introduce Fedora to non-users, how to take all opportunities for telling
   people that you are a proud Fedora Ambassador and Fedora Contributor.

   - Physically, mentor knows how to handle all questions raised from
   ambassadors. If mentor does not know the answer, would do their best to
   research it with the ambassadors timely. Mentor is patient and out-going,
   too. As Neville said, they should do workshops in fedora-class also.


At the end of the day, it is may not be an academic way with textbooks and
exams, but mentor way with communication and reviews.

Regards,
kaio

-- 
Regards ☺ Caius 'kaio' Chance
Fedora Project Contributor - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kaio
[IRC] kaio @ freenode | [Twitter] @K410 | [Blog] kaio.net

[Igor Pires Soares]

Em Seg, 2010-11-22 às 07:32 +1000, Caius 'kaio' Chance escreveu:


>  IMHO, the requirements to become a mentors could be put into three
>  parts:
>  
>        * Organizationally, mentor knows the procedures of checks listed
>          on the FP wiki pages, such as FAS account set up, CLA cert set
>          up, user page on wiki, subscription of ambassador list, etc.
>          
>        * Spiritually, mentor knows the meanings of ambassadors beyond
>          code of conduct on the FP wiki pages, such as how to find and
>          fit in the existing Fedora or general Linux community in their
>          town/city/country, how to introduce Fedora to non-users, how
>          to take all opportunities for telling people that you are a
>          proud Fedora Ambassador and Fedora Contributor.
>          
>        * Physically, mentor knows how to handle all questions raised
>          from ambassadors. If mentor does not know the answer, would do
>          their best to research it with the ambassadors timely. Mentor
>          is patient and out-going, too. As Neville said, they should do
>          workshops in fedora-class also.
>  
>  At the end of the day, it is may not be an academic way with textbooks
>  and exams, but mentor way with communication and reviews. 
IMHO it is highly important to take in consideration if the ambassador
is a person who is a reference for others and if s/he is already
recognized as a "mentor", although not a formal one, by those
ambassadors that s/he is already helping. That would help new and
current ambassadors to know who they should ask for help, specially in
local communities with a lot of ambassadors.

Regards,
-- 
Igor Pires Soares
Fedora I18N/L10N QA
Fedora Ambassador (Brazil)
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Igor

[Truong Anh Tuan]

----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Igor Pires Soares" <igorsoares(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  To: ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:48:11 AM
>  Subject: Re: [Ambassadors] Issue raised at 2nd FAmSCo townhall
>  Em Seg, 2010-11-22 às 07:32 +1000, Caius 'kaio' Chance escreveu:
>  
>  IMHO it is highly important to take in consideration if the ambassador
>  is a person who is a reference for others and if s/he is already
>  recognized as a "mentor", although not a formal one, by those
>  ambassadors that s/he is already helping. That would help new and
>  current ambassadors to know who they should ask for help, specially in
>  local communities with a lot of ambassadors. 
+1.

Kind regards, 
Tuan

[Joerg Simon]

Am 21.11.2010 02:00, schrieb Neville A. Cross:
>  Today I was asked once more off list how to achieve that mentor
> status. 
the "status ..." thing troubles me all the time ;)

To make it a more clear statement for People who do not know that
becoming a mentor, is nothing where you can apply for, i hope i pointed
it out more clear on the "Find a Mentors Page"

"Mentors are a group of people - selected, proposed and appointed by
people - not by a leveling system - based on trust (and a lot of soft
facts), Prospective mentors are nominated by existing Mentors and
confirmed by FAmSCo!"




cu Joerg


-- 
Joerg (kital) Simon
jsimon(a)fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JoergSimon
http://kitall.blogspot.com
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[inode0]

2010/11/22 Joerg Simon <jsimon(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>  Am 21.11.2010 02:00, schrieb Neville A. Cross:
> > Today I was asked once more off list how to achieve that mentor status.
>
>  the "status ..." thing troubles me all the time ;) 
I wanted to reply to this too. I think of it as nothing more than a
task required to help smoothly transition new ambassadors into our
group and to be a filter of last resort. How many people need to be
available to do this is purely a function of regional needs which will
vary over time.

There are also two sorts of mentors. The kind we are talking about
here often isn't really what people generally think it is. To be a
"mentor" for the Fedora Project every contributor can just do it. Help
people get involved, help them get their bearings, help them find
areas of interest and learn how to effectively contribute in those
areas.

The sort we are talking about here is more about being a filter to
membership in the Ambassador group. It can involve the other notion of
mentoring too in some cases. Being a mentor to the project at large
should be more respected and something we all aspire to - and there is
nothing preventing any of us from being that kind of mentor.

>  To make it a more clear statement for People who do not know that
>  becoming a mentor, is nothing where you can apply for, i hope i pointed
>  it out more clear on the "Find a Mentors Page"
>
>  "Mentors are a group of people - selected, proposed and appointed by
>  people - not by a leveling system - based on trust (and a lot of soft
>  facts), Prospective mentors are nominated by existing Mentors and
>  confirmed by FAmSCo!" 
If you want to be a mentor for the Ambassador group, be a good
ambassador and if asked volunteer to help when needed. One great way
to prepare is to be a good mentor for the project as a whole.

John

[Neville A. Cross]

2010/11/22 Joerg Simon <jsimon(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>  Am 21.11.2010 02:00, schrieb Neville A. Cross:
> > Today I was asked once more off list how to achieve that mentor status.
>
>  the "status ..." thing troubles me all the time ;)
>  
That's is my point ... we need to show that is not a status... is extra work.

<joke> extra work ... same pay as any volunteer ! </joke>

>  To make it a more clear statement for People who do not know that
>  becoming a mentor, is nothing where you can apply for, i hope i pointed
>  it out more clear on the "Find a Mentors Page"
>
>  "Mentors are a group of people - selected, proposed and appointed by
>  people - not by a leveling system - based on trust (and a lot of soft
>  facts), Prospective mentors are nominated by existing Mentors and
>  confirmed by FAmSCo!"
>
>  
I think this is a more clear statement, hopefully this will help to
diminish the number of times this questions is asked.

Thanks.



-- 
Neville
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v
Linux User # 473217

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