Formal request for approval of the multi-desktop DVD (Re: Board meeting recap, 2010 10-18)

[Christoph Wickert]

Hi Mo,

thanks for posting the meeting minutes.

Am Montag, den 18.10.2010, 15:26 -0400 schrieb Máirín Duffy:
>  
>     4. EMEA Media question (ctyler, 19:01:29)
>           1. ACTION: ctyler to communicate to EMEA that the board is
>  open
>  to having a disc-of-spins use the Fedora name as long as the
>  spin-selection software is packaged for Fedora, the spins use the same
>  name as on the spins website, with the exception of the desktop spin
>  which should be called the "desktop spin" and we see a prototype for
>  approval (ctyler, 19:11:54) 
As far as I understand from reading the meeting logs, there are two
concerns:

      * It needs to be tested. The prototype is available for three
        weeks now at http://sspreitzer.fedorapeople.org/torrents/ -
        please test!
        We will make an F14 dual layer version once live images of TC2
        are available.
        
      * The (one and only) desktop (TM) must not be referred to as the
        "GNOME". We are not, please look at
        http://cwickert.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/f13-multi-desktop-dvd.png
        GNOME is called "Fedora 14 Live" just like the ISO and is the
        default selection. The only reference to the name GNOME is on
        the filesystem. We will change this if it makes you happy.

Can we now please get the formal approval for the media? We cannot
afford to loose another week because we want the media available for the
F14 release events.

Regards,
Christoph

[Máirín Duffy]

On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 02:10 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>        * It needs to be tested. The prototype is available for three
>          weeks now at http://sspreitzer.fedorapeople.org/torrents/ -
>          please test!
>          We will make an F14 dual layer version once live images of TC2
>          are available. 
Three weeks this coming Thursday. It's still Monday here.

You mentioned on IRC that some testing has already been done; is there
any wiki page with the results or any other testing data available?

Some questions with my UX designer cap on:

- For the dual layer, how do you intend to help users understand which
side is which? (I'm guessing one side of the dual-layer is 32-bit, the
other 64-bit?) 

- Does the manufacturer have a way of labeling the full center plastic
ring or is it only just a narrow strip as with the SUSE discs?

- If only a thin plastic ring is available, do you have any idea from
the manufacturer on the character length limits of the label and a draft
of what you would have it say for each side? How about character length
limits for a wider center label?

- Are these going to be provided in a printed sleeve? If so, do you have
any mockups/designs/copy for the sleeve? 

- What style sleeve - cardboard pocket or one with a plastic ring? 

It seems since it would be printed dual-layer, it would be difficult to
provide a good label for the disc making the sleeve design even more
critical for identifying the disc and instructing users on how to use
it. 

>        * The (one and only) desktop (TM) must not be referred to as
> the
>          "GNOME". We are not, please look at
>          http://cwickert.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/f13-multi-desktop-dvd.png
>          GNOME is called "Fedora 14 Live" just like the ISO and is the
>          default selection. The only reference to the name GNOME is on
>          the filesystem. We will change this if it makes you happy.
>   
I have a few concerns about the design of this menu:

- Does every item need to mention Fedora 13?
- Can the entire disk be verified with a single menu item? 
- Could the names for each of the desktop items be a bit more 
  friendly and readable? 

E.g., rather than this, which I think is a little overwhelming to read:

* Fedora-13-i686-Live
* Verify and Boot Fedora-13-i686-Live
* Fedora-13-i686-Live-KDE
* Verify and Boot Fedora-13-i686-Live-KDE
* Fedora-13-i686-Live-LXDE
* Verify and Boot Fedora-13-i686-Live-LXDE
* Fedora-13-i686-Live-XFCE
* Verify and Boot Fedora-13-i686-Live-XFCE

Could it maybe instead read like this, which I think is a bit more approachable:

* Boot Fedora Live
* Boot Fedora Live KDE
* Boot Fedora Live LXDE
* Boot Fedora Live XFCE
* Verify media

?

>  Can we now please get the formal approval for the media? We cannot
>  afford to loose another week because we want the media available for the
>  F14 release events. 
Board members, could we add this to the agenda on Thursday 21 Oct? We
were going to meet at 2 pm to discuss the codenames, right?

Otherwise, it could be added to next Monday's (25 Oct) agenda. I'm not
sure if it's possible to approve a trademark request without quorum, or
over the mailing list? (Can any old-timer board members verify if this
is or is not the case?)

~m

[Gregory Fenton]

Just a little clarification:

Dual layer discs are actually not the same as dual sided discs, they can be
printed on just like a normal DVD.  Dual layer discs work by refocussing the
laser slightly above the normal focussing point so the data on the second
layer does not interfere with the first.

A lot of video DVDs are produced as dual layer DVDs, most drives can read
them without modification.

The fact some drives display "Dual Layer" is purely because they are DVD
writers, earlier DVD writers could not write to the second layer.

Dual layer is part of the DVD standard - all DVD drives should by design be
able to read dual layer DVDs even if they can not write to them.

Best regards to one and all

Greg Fenton
2010/10/19 Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;

>  On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 02:10 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>  >       * It needs to be tested. The prototype is available for three
>  >         weeks now at http://sspreitzer.fedorapeople.org/torrents/ -
>  >         please test!
>  >         We will make an F14 dual layer version once live images of TC2
>  >         are available.
>
>  Three weeks this coming Thursday. It's still Monday here.
>
>  You mentioned on IRC that some testing has already been done; is there
>  any wiki page with the results or any other testing data available?
>
>  Some questions with my UX designer cap on:
>
>  - For the dual layer, how do you intend to help users understand which
>  side is which? (I'm guessing one side of the dual-layer is 32-bit, the
>  other 64-bit?)
>
>  - Does the manufacturer have a way of labeling the full center plastic
>  ring or is it only just a narrow strip as with the SUSE discs?
>
>  - If only a thin plastic ring is available, do you have any idea from
>  the manufacturer on the character length limits of the label and a draft
>  of what you would have it say for each side? How about character length
>  limits for a wider center label?
>
>  - Are these going to be provided in a printed sleeve? If so, do you have
>  any mockups/designs/copy for the sleeve?
>
>  - What style sleeve - cardboard pocket or one with a plastic ring?
>
>  It seems since it would be printed dual-layer, it would be difficult to
>  provide a good label for the disc making the sleeve design even more
>  critical for identifying the disc and instructing users on how to use
>  it.
>
>  >       * The (one and only) desktop (TM) must not be referred to as the
>  >         "GNOME". We are not, please look at
>  >
>  http://cwickert.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/f13-multi-desktop-dvd.png
>  >         GNOME is called "Fedora 14 Live" just like the ISO and is the
>  >         default selection. The only reference to the name GNOME is on
>  >         the filesystem. We will change this if it makes you happy.
>  >
>
>  I have a few concerns about the design of this menu:
>
>  - Does every item need to mention Fedora 13?
>  - Can the entire disk be verified with a single menu item?
>  - Could the names for each of the desktop items be a bit more
>   friendly and readable?
>
>  E.g., rather than this, which I think is a little overwhelming to read:
>
>  * Fedora-13-i686-Live
>  * Verify and Boot Fedora-13-i686-Live
>  * Fedora-13-i686-Live-KDE
>  * Verify and Boot Fedora-13-i686-Live-KDE
>  * Fedora-13-i686-Live-LXDE
>  * Verify and Boot Fedora-13-i686-Live-LXDE
>  * Fedora-13-i686-Live-XFCE
>  * Verify and Boot Fedora-13-i686-Live-XFCE
>
>  Could it maybe instead read like this, which I think is a bit more
>  approachable:
>
>  * Boot Fedora Live
>  * Boot Fedora Live KDE
>  * Boot Fedora Live LXDE
>  * Boot Fedora Live XFCE
>  * Verify media
>
>  ?
>
>  > Can we now please get the formal approval for the media? We cannot
>  > afford to loose another week because we want the media available for the
>  > F14 release events.
>
>  Board members, could we add this to the agenda on Thursday 21 Oct? We
>  were going to meet at 2 pm to discuss the codenames, right?
>
>  Otherwise, it could be added to next Monday's (25 Oct) agenda. I'm not
>  sure if it's possible to approve a trademark request without quorum, or
>  over the mailing list? (Can any old-timer board members verify if this
>  is or is not the case?)
>
>  ~m
>
>  --
>  ambassadors mailing list
>  ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Dienstag, den 19.10.2010, 02:10 +0200 schrieb Christoph Wickert:

>        * The prototype is available for three
>          weeks now at http://sspreitzer.fedorapeople.org/torrents/ -
>          please test!
>          We will make an F14 dual layer version once live images of TC2
>          are available. 
An updated image is now available at the linked location. Please get it
tested and raise any technical concerns you have.

TIA,
Christoph

[Matt Domsch]

A number of concerns have been raised, I'd like to see these closed
out.

* It's coming in way late.  This I agree with, and it may be enough to
  be a showstopper for this release.  But it doesn't have to be, if
  rel-eng isn't expected to produce it, and if QA isn't expected to
  test it.  Aside from being possible now, here is nothing put forward
  that would prevent this from being held until the F15 release, like
  we do with other "features" - and I do think changing the
  delivery model can be considered a feature change.

* Forget about calling this a remix.  If we want our ambassadors to
  hand this out at events, EMEA or elsewhere, it needs to be produced
  by and for the Project as a whole.  The EMEA ambassadors may be the
  actors getting the ISOs pressed, and they may be the ones doing to
  ISO creation and testing, but the end result must be a
  Project-produced item, not treated like a 3rd-party produced item.

* GNOME vs Desktop naming, seems resolved or easily resolvable.  Mo is
  right though that we would want to see a good user experience, and
  that being late lends itself to a more hasty, and possibly
  sub-optimal experience.  Given that the design team has had a hand
  in producing the other sleeves and labels, it's fair to include them
  in the production of such for this too (I could digress into
  unfunded mandates here, when it's late in the cycle and everyone is
  stressed...)

* Source distribution.  This is an aggregation of the existing spin
  images, so there are no _new_ obligations.  Source is in the
  Everything/ tree, and in git.  We don't currently publish an ISO of
  SRPMS corresponding to the contents of the other spins.  I do still
  encourage people to add their srpm lists to the correspondingsource
  git tree on fedorahosted though.

* I'd argue that having QA test it is important. I agree the test plan
  need not be huge and complex, and need not duplicate all the other
  testing of the individual spins, but some formal test plan, covering
  the difference between the existing spins and this, is critical.
  And someone needs to both write the test plan, and find the manpower
  to carry out those tests.  (I could digress into unfunded mandates
  here, when it's late in the cycle and everyone is stressed...)

* I don't see a need for Infrastructure to host the ISO for
  downloadability, but I think we could.  It's 5.2GB, which could pose
  a problem in our serving environment (files > 4GB tend to cause
  problems for apache), but alt.fp.o is currently running x86_64
  apache, which should not have a problem with large files.

* How will liveusb-creator handle being given this image?  Will it
  still work?  It doesn't have to, but it'd be nice to know if it'll
  break...


So, my gut feeling is, this is possible, but way late, and is
introducing stress into the system exactly when it shouldn't be.
Could we pull it off?  Likely yes.  Will it be bumpy?  Likely yes (as
this conversation has already shown).

Christoph, how can you and others help alleviate these stresses, so to
produce this now, rather than waiting for F15?

Thanks,
Matt