6:53 a.m.
Dear *,
Does someone could explain me what is the procedure in order to create
an official Fedora entity -association- for Belgium as my French or
German friends did ?
From a Fedora point of view, of course.
I would need your
feedbacks.
Max if you could reply to my previous mail I would appreciate. THX.
Thanks a lot.
Best Regards
Frederic Hornain
9:32 a.m.
2008/2/29, Frederic Hornain <fhornain(a)gmail.com>:
Dear *,
Does someone could explain me what is the procedure in order to create
an official Fedora entity -association- for Belgium as my French or
German friends did ?
First of all there isn't any German entity, but an European (or better
EMEA) one (for legal reason it was founded in Germany). If you want
you can join Fedora EMEA (Europe - Middle East - Africa) NPO (No
Profit Organization), just talk with Fedora EMEA chair to know how to
do it.
Regards
Francesco
10:24 a.m.
2008/2/29, Frederic Hornain <fhornain(a)gmail.com>:
> Dear *,
>
> Does someone could explain me what is the procedure in order to create
> an official Fedora entity -association- for Belgium as my French or
> German friends did ?
First of all there isn't any German entity, but an European (or better
EMEA) one (for legal reason it was founded in Germany). If you want
you can join Fedora EMEA (Europe - Middle East - Africa) NPO (No
Profit Organization), just talk with Fedora EMEA chair to know how to
do it.
Regards
Francesco
^^
Francesco,
thanks; WELL SPOKEN words in that case. Maybe not all understand the
difference or the work we want to do with founding that non profit
organisation.
The goals from my perspective as an Ambassador are the same without or
with my personal membership in that organisation.
I / we want to help Fedora to spread the word, to support users whereever
they need the helping hand from Fedora, win Linux user to use Fedora,
going forward, improving and getting upstream ....
We as the founder of that organisation don't want to seperate or
dissociate ourself neither than persons nor than Fedora EMEA e.V. from the
Fedora Project, the Ambassador "programm" or from Red Hat. Far from it! We
want to work closer to Red Hat with the real life things, like organising
events together with Red Hat, get "money" to the project because of
everybody can now donate a German association and he is now able to get a
donation receipt for his donation which is also tax reducing, so we have
there a win - win situation ...
So we're trying to share a part of "responsibility" on more shoulders than
only for one main sponsor.
So if you have any more question do not hesitate and contact Fabian
(fabian_a), me (geroldka), Jeroen (kanarip) or Robert (rsc) [as the board
of that organisation] somwhere in a fedora-channel on freenode.
Regards
Gerold
11:41 a.m.
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Frederic Hornain wrote:
Does someone could explain me what is the procedure in order to
create
an official Fedora entity -association- for Belgium as my French or
German friends did ?
> From a Fedora point of view, of course.
I would need your feedbacks.
Max if you could reply to my previous mail I would appreciate. THX.
Here is what I think, very honestly.
The French team was way ahead of the game, and got themselves organized
long ago.
Now we have a Fedora EMEA NPO (that just so *happens* to be a German
legal entity).
I think that the Fedora EMEA NPO has always talked about how it wants to
be inclusive of *everyone* in Europe, and I think that it should be.
If we start having a bunch of different organizations for each country,
it will:
1) create a lot of paperwork
2) make the European Ambassadors feel like a bunch of splintered
organizations instead of one solid team
3) destroy the larger sense of Community throughout Europe that I think
is the most compelling thing about Fedora Europe.
So I would ask you:
Why do you feel like we need yet another organization?
What would a "Fedora Belgium" organization do that the larger Fedora
EMEA organization can't do?
To me, the critical path seems to be:
1) Ensure the success of the Fedora EMEA NPO as an entity that serves
*all* of Europe.
2) Continue to ensure that Fedora France has resources.
3) Make sure that everyone thinks of themselves as part of the Larger
Fedora European community.
A *legal entity* is not a community. It is just a means of getting
stuff done.
We must all think of ourselves as part of the same big team. I don't
think we should be forming any more legal entities. I think we should
be making sure that the ones we already have are serving the *entire*
community.
--Max
11:57 a.m.
On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 7:41 PM, Max Spevack <mspevack(a)redhat.com> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Frederic Hornain wrote:
> Does someone could explain me what is the procedure in order to create
> an official Fedora entity -association- for Belgium as my French or
> German friends did ?
>> From a Fedora point of view, of course.
> I would need your feedbacks.
>
> Max if you could reply to my previous mail I would appreciate. THX.
Here is what I think, very honestly.
The French team was way ahead of the game, and got themselves organized
long ago.
Now we have a Fedora EMEA NPO (that just so *happens* to be a German
legal entity).
I think that the Fedora EMEA NPO has always talked about how it wants to
be inclusive of *everyone* in Europe, and I think that it should be.
If we start having a bunch of different organizations for each country,
it will:
1) create a lot of paperwork
2) make the European Ambassadors feel like a bunch of splintered
organizations instead of one solid team
3) destroy the larger sense of Community throughout Europe that I think
is the most compelling thing about Fedora Europe.
So I would ask you:
Why do you feel like we need yet another organization?
What would a "Fedora Belgium" organization do that the larger Fedora
EMEA organization can't do?
To me, the critical path seems to be:
1) Ensure the success of the Fedora EMEA NPO as an entity that serves
*all* of Europe.
2) Continue to ensure that Fedora France has resources.
3) Make sure that everyone thinks of themselves as part of the Larger
Fedora European community.
A *legal entity* is not a community. It is just a means of getting
stuff done.
We must all think of ourselves as part of the same big team. I don't
think we should be forming any more legal entities. I think we should
be making sure that the ones we already have are serving the *entire*
community.
FWIW, I agree with all points from Max.
-d
--
Dimitris Glezos
Jabber ID: glezos(a)jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
http://dimitris.glezos.com/
"He who gives up functionality for ease of use
loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
--
2:12 p.m.
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Frederic Hornain wrote:
Does someone could explain me what is the procedure in order to
create
an official Fedora entity -association- for Belgium as my French or
German friends did ?
Sorry, when now being a bit rude, but wouldn't it be better to get at least
some active ambassadors in Belgium doing more for the Fedora community? As
far as I remember, there are only less Fedora ambassadors in Belgium and
one of these less was even unable to organize a hotel for us at FOSDEM; we
had to do this ourself... :-(
Anway...the "German friends" founded a EMEA-wide NPO to be registered in
Germany, which is not only in Germany or only for German ones, it is for
the whole EMEA! Please participiate in Fedora EMEA and help us...
Greetings,
Robert
3:52 p.m.
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Robert Scheck wrote:
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Frederic Hornain wrote:
> Does someone could explain me what is the procedure in order to create
> an official Fedora entity -association- for Belgium as my French or
> German friends did ?
Sorry, when now being a bit rude, but wouldn't it be better to get at
least some active ambassadors in Belgium doing more for the Fedora
community? As far as I remember, there are only less Fedora
ambassadors in Belgium and one of these less was even unable to
organize a hotel for us at FOSDEM; we had to do this ourself... :-(
Anway...the "German friends" founded a EMEA-wide NPO to be registered
in Germany, which is not only in Germany or only for German ones, it
is for the whole EMEA! Please participiate in Fedora EMEA and help
us...
I encourage everyone to re-read my response on this thread and think
about how we can continue to work together as a EUROPEAN COMMUNITY and
not worry about individual countries.
The Fedora EMEA NPO can serve *everyone*, and I will certainly make it
my job to think about all of Europe, not just individual parts of it.
--Max
4:24 p.m.
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:52:09 -0500 (EST)
Max Spevack <mspevack(a)redhat.com> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Robert Scheck wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Frederic Hornain wrote:
>> Does someone could explain me what is the procedure in order to create
>> an official Fedora entity -association- for Belgium as my French or
>> German friends did ?
>
> Sorry, when now being a bit rude, but wouldn't it be better to get at
> least some active ambassadors in Belgium doing more for the Fedora
> community? As far as I remember, there are only less Fedora
> ambassadors in Belgium and one of these less was even unable to
> organize a hotel for us at FOSDEM; we had to do this ourself... :-(
>
> Anway...the "German friends" founded a EMEA-wide NPO to be registered
> in Germany, which is not only in Germany or only for German ones, it
> is for the whole EMEA! Please participiate in Fedora EMEA and help
> us...
I encourage everyone to re-read my response on this thread and think
about how we can continue to work together as a EUROPEAN COMMUNITY and
not worry about individual countries.
However I can hardly understand how such a big europen infrastructure could be able to
manage local members individually. We are too many I think and have so many different
cultures that I think it will be a very difficult task to handle. And I think this is were
FAMSCO failed two years ago, it could not manage so many members because they were so
different.
Local entities are good as they can do this face to face job with local members.
That's what we do here, and I should not make a mistake saying that european people
first feels being from their countries before feeling European. I consider myself as being
more French than European, however, Europe IS bigger than France and gives many laws to
us.
People are far from Europe from my point of view. EMEA organisation is good, but I
personaly think it will be much easier task to communicate with identified local entities
than with so many different local ambassadors.
Thomas Canniot
--
Thomas Canniot <thomas.canniot(a)mrtomlinux.org>
5:01 p.m.
> I encourage everyone to re-read my response on this thread and
think
> about how we can continue to work together as a EUROPEAN COMMUNITY and
> not worry about individual countries.
However I can hardly understand how such a big europen infrastructure could
be able to manage local members individually. We are too many I think and
have so many different cultures that I think it will be a very difficult
task to handle. And I think this is were FAMSCO failed two years ago, it
could not manage so many members because they were so different.
My understanding is that Fedora EMEA NPO is more to provide a legal framework
as well as organizing the European community around Fedora
Local entities are good as they can do this face to face job with
local
members. That's what we do here, and I should not make a mistake saying
that european people first feels being from their countries before feeling
European. I consider myself as being more French than European, however,
Europe IS bigger than France and gives many laws to us.
This therefore does not change the role of these 'local entities' which manage
this face to face job but actually provide them with central resource instead
of letting them 'working on their own' Moreover having this may reinforce
Fedora identity ensuring we are present when needed giving a unified message.
I do not understand the need of creating NPO for each (country) group. This
may become a mess and make thinks difficult to follow and manage. It may be
worse designing for each country a kind of 'manager' who may be the interface
between Fedora EMEA NPO and the local community. Advocating on their needs
and providing resources for local activities.
People are far from Europe from my point of view. EMEA organisation
is
good, but I personaly think it will be much easier task to communicate with
identified local entities than with so many different local ambassadors.
Thomas Canniot
It was just my 0.2 $
Cheers,
--
Jonathan Basse <jbasse(a)fedoraproject.org>
Belgium Fedora Ambassador
8:20 a.m.
Dear *,
Ok, everybody gave his own point of view however it was just a simple question.
I did not say I am going to do that, did I ? I just wondering if it
was possible and if it makes sense to do it.
And the answer was "No really" as Max explain us.
Indeed the community prefer to have a centralized organization.
Fair enough ! :)
First of all there isn't any German entity, but an European (or
better
EMEA) one (for legal reason it was founded in Germany). If you want
you can join Fedora EMEA (Europe - Middle East - Africa) NPO (No
Profit Organization), just talk with Fedora EMEA chair to know how to
do it.
Excuse me, you are right, I made a mistake. There is an EMEA entity
not a German one.
Sorry for that but I am still human.
So as Gerold wrote in one of these previous post, I am going to
contact Fabian (fabian_a), Gerold himself (geroldka), Jeroen (kanarip)
or Robert (rsc) [as the board of that organisation] in the next days.
Kind Regards
Frederic
2008/3/1 Jonathan Basse <jbasse(a)fedoraproject.org>:
> > I encourage everyone to re-read my response on this thread
and think
> > about how we can continue to work together as a EUROPEAN COMMUNITY and
> > not worry about individual countries.
>
> However I can hardly understand how such a big europen infrastructure could
> be able to manage local members individually. We are too many I think and
> have so many different cultures that I think it will be a very difficult
> task to handle. And I think this is were FAMSCO failed two years ago, it
> could not manage so many members because they were so different.
My understanding is that Fedora EMEA NPO is more to provide a legal framework
as well as organizing the European community around Fedora
> Local entities are good as they can do this face to face job with local
> members. That's what we do here, and I should not make a mistake saying
> that european people first feels being from their countries before feeling
> European. I consider myself as being more French than European, however,
> Europe IS bigger than France and gives many laws to us.
This therefore does not change the role of these 'local entities' which manage
this face to face job but actually provide them with central resource instead
of letting them 'working on their own' Moreover having this may reinforce
Fedora identity ensuring we are present when needed giving a unified message.
I do not understand the need of creating NPO for each (country) group. This
may become a mess and make thinks difficult to follow and manage. It may be
worse designing for each country a kind of 'manager' who may be the interface
between Fedora EMEA NPO and the local community. Advocating on their needs
and providing resources for local activities.
> People are far from Europe from my point of view. EMEA organisation is
> good, but I personaly think it will be much easier task to communicate with
> identified local entities than with so many different local ambassadors.
>
>
> Thomas Canniot
It was just my 0.2 $
Cheers,
--
Jonathan Basse <jbasse(a)fedoraproject.org>
Belgium Fedora Ambassador
--
Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
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12:20 p.m.
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Thomas Canniot wrote:
Local entities are good as they can do this face to face job with
local members. That's what we do here, and I should not make a mistake
saying that european people first feels being from their countries
before feeling European. I consider myself as being more French than
European, however, Europe IS bigger than France and gives many laws to
us.
I am very interested in allowing local people to be empowered -- I am
glad that there is a French Fedora team that understands all the events
in France, and that can come back to someone like me or FAMSCo and ask
for resources.
I am glad that there is a LinuxTag and FOSDEM organizational team that
does similar things.
I want that to continue to grow, and I want people all over the world to
be able to get resources for local events and to promote Fedora locally:
This is one of the goals of the Red Hat Community Architecture team,
which I am a member of.
But all of that is very different than going through the process of
setting up a separate legal entity for each country, which I personally
don't think gives us much value. But that is just my opinion. ;)
--Max
5:20 a.m.
Dear Max,
That is exactly the point what I wanted to approach.
Let's explain me why I launch the local entity debate.
Well, one of my recurrent annual project is to promote Fedora locally
- Belgium - which is not in contradiction with what you wrote, isn't
it.
I organize and participate to commercial and non commercial event
with Red Hat Belgium and spread the words when it is possible.
In addition, I am trying to improve Fedora in Belgium from errors,
misses, etc I had from previous years.
However, I am beginning to be a little bit stuck.
For instance, I do not have any resources in order to promote Fedora
locally. I requested them several time via
That the reason why for my point of view, we need to be more
organized, more empowered, more professional, more transparent.
And that is one of the reasons of the Fedora EMEA NPO creation.
For instance, the FOSDEM has to be managed as a project.
So it needs annual scope, time and budget.
On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 7:20 PM, Max Spevack <mspevack(a)redhat.com> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Thomas Canniot wrote:
> Local entities are good as they can do this face to face job with
> local members. That's what we do here, and I should not make a mistake
> saying that european people first feels being from their countries
> before feeling European. I consider myself as being more French than
> European, however, Europe IS bigger than France and gives many laws to
> us.
I am very interested in allowing local people to be empowered -- I am
glad that there is a French Fedora team that understands all the events
in France, and that can come back to someone like me or FAMSCo and ask
for resources.
I am glad that there is a LinuxTag and FOSDEM organizational team that
does similar things.
I want that to continue to grow, and I want people all over the world to
be able to get resources for local events and to promote Fedora locally:
This is one of the goals of the Red Hat Community Architecture team,
which I am a member of.
But all of that is very different than going through the process of
setting up a separate legal entity for each country, which I personally
don't think gives us much value. But that is just my opinion. ;)
--Max
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5:23 a.m.
Opps, I hit the "Enter" key inconveniently.
I am going to resent this previous post as soon as it will be finished.
Sorry again for that.
KR
Frederic
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Frederic Hornain <fhornain(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Max,
That is exactly the point what I wanted to approach.
Let's explain me why I launch the local entity debate.
Well, one of my recurrent annual project is to promote Fedora locally
- Belgium - which is not in contradiction with what you wrote, isn't
it.
I organize and participate to commercial and non commercial event
with Red Hat Belgium and spread the words when it is possible.
In addition, I am trying to improve Fedora in Belgium from errors,
misses, etc I had from previous years.
However, I am beginning to be a little bit stuck.
For instance, I do not have any resources in order to promote Fedora
locally. I requested them several time via
That the reason why for my point of view, we need to be more
organized, more empowered, more professional, more transparent.
And that is one of the reasons of the Fedora EMEA NPO creation.
For instance, the FOSDEM has to be managed as a project.
So it needs annual scope, time and budget.
On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 7:20 PM, Max Spevack <mspevack(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Thomas Canniot wrote:
>
> > Local entities are good as they can do this face to face job with
> > local members. That's what we do here, and I should not make a mistake
> > saying that european people first feels being from their countries
> > before feeling European. I consider myself as being more French than
> > European, however, Europe IS bigger than France and gives many laws to
> > us.
>
> I am very interested in allowing local people to be empowered -- I am
> glad that there is a French Fedora team that understands all the events
> in France, and that can come back to someone like me or FAMSCo and ask
> for resources.
>
> I am glad that there is a LinuxTag and FOSDEM organizational team that
> does similar things.
>
> I want that to continue to grow, and I want people all over the world to
> be able to get resources for local events and to promote Fedora locally:
>
> This is one of the goals of the Red Hat Community Architecture team,
> which I am a member of.
>
> But all of that is very different than going through the process of
> setting up a separate legal entity for each country, which I personally
> don't think gives us much value. But that is just my opinion. ;)
>
> --Max
>
>
>
> --
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>
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6:01 a.m.
So :
Dear Max,
That is exactly the point what I wanted to approach.
Let's explain me why I launch the local entity debate.
Well, one of my recurrent annual project is to promote Fedora locally
- Belgium - which is not in contradiction with what you wrote, isn't
it.
I organize and participate to commercial and non commercial event with
Red Hat Belgium and spread the words when it is possible.
In addition, I am trying to improve Fedora in Belgium from errors,
misses, etc I had from previous years.
However, I am beginning to be a little bit stuck.
For instance, I do not have any resources in order to promote Fedora
locally. I requested them several time via official and non-official
ways but I did not receive it. Not yet, anyway.
Another example is donation.
So, my conclusion was to produce DVD and goodies myself with donation
instead of waiting for nothing.
Nonetheless in order to do that I should have to create an entity or
an organization in order to buy, sell stuffs, receive donation and
also to be transparent from Fedora community.
That was the reason of my initial post on this discussion cause we
need to be more organized, more empowered, more professional, more
transparent than we are today.
For instance, the FOSDEM has to be managed as a project. So it needs
annual scope, time and budget.
For the moment, we are nowhere.
But if Fedora EMEA NPO or Red Hat Community Architecture team is
attributing us a annual budget for that, it is ok for us otherwise we
could not respond correctly to the demands - Fedora accommodation for
instance - .
Obviously on the other side,we would have to be transparent if you
give us that power
All that to say, I need to know in which way we go.
Please clarify me it , Max
Thanks for your comprehension.
BR
Frederic
8:50 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Frederic Hornain <fhornain(a)gmail.com> wrote:
So :
Dear Max,
That is exactly the point what I wanted to approach.
Let's explain me why I launch the local entity debate.
Well, one of my recurrent annual project is to promote Fedora locally
- Belgium - which is not in contradiction with what you wrote, isn't
it.
I organize and participate to commercial and non commercial event with
Red Hat Belgium and spread the words when it is possible.
In addition, I am trying to improve Fedora in Belgium from errors,
misses, etc I had from previous years.
However, I am beginning to be a little bit stuck.
For instance, I do not have any resources in order to promote Fedora
locally. I requested them several time via official and non-official
ways but I did not receive it. Not yet, anyway.
Another example is donation.
So, my conclusion was to produce DVD and goodies myself with donation
instead of waiting for nothing.
Nonetheless in order to do that I should have to create an entity or
an organization in order to buy, sell stuffs, receive donation and
also to be transparent from Fedora community.
That was the reason of my initial post on this discussion cause we
need to be more organized, more empowered, more professional, more
transparent than we are today.
For instance, the FOSDEM has to be managed as a project. So it needs
annual scope, time and budget.
For the moment, we are nowhere.
But if Fedora EMEA NPO or Red Hat Community Architecture team is
attributing us a annual budget for that, it is ok for us otherwise we
could not respond correctly to the demands - Fedora accommodation for
instance - .
Obviously on the other side,we would have to be transparent if you
give us that power
All that to say, I need to know in which way we go.
Please clarify me it , Max
Thanks for your comprehension.
BR
Frederic
I'm a new Fedora Ambassador but have years of NGO experience to know
what Frederic is talking about.
So +1 from me.
Valent.
--
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linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic
12:16 p.m.
Am Dienstag, 4. März 2008 13:01:48 schrieb Frederic Hornain:
For instance, I do not have any resources in order to promote Fedora
locally. I requested them several time via official and non-official
ways but I did not receive it. Not yet, anyway.
For instance, the FOSDEM has to be managed as a project. So it needs
annual scope, time and budget.
For the moment, we are nowhere.
Ask yourself,
- who was the Projectowner
and then ask the Projectowner
- how was the communication in front of the event,
- what was done to delegate tasks to participants
- how was the commitment of the Projectowner to be with the core of
contributors at times arround the event
Get the answers and you know what to do.
cu Joerg
--
Jörg Simon
jsimon(a)fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JoergSimon
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15 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
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Dimitris Glezos -
Francesco Ugolini -
Frederic Hornain -
Gerold -
Joerg Simon -
Jonathan Basse -
Max Spevack -
Robert Scheck -
Thomas Canniot -
Valent Turkovic