Re: [Ambassadors] FYI Fedora 12 one page release notes. :)

[Máirín Duffy]

On Tue, 2010-03-30 at 22:42 +0100, Nelson Marques wrote:
>  And it does exist as a verb, but since I'm not an expert in
> foreign
>  grammar. I'll pass the debate.
>  Well, doesn't matter if you agree or not, just search google images on
>  O.G.'s and such and you will find it. 
I'm not sure how Google Images is a better authority than Wikipedia,
which you criticized earlier.

>  That wasn't exactly what I had in mind... neither it should
> probably be
>  used in that way. I know GNOME is having a rough time having artistic
>  contributions, as Fedora most likely could use some more artists. That
>  probably would help you in that way, to get a more accurate perspective
>  of factors that would lead more people to join our project. See it as a
>  qualitative approach and not quantitative. 
I'm sorry, but it seems I am not understanding you clearly here - can
you explain then why you propose to set up survey software? What exactly
would you survey about, and who would you survey?

>  > If an Italian in Germany makes a hang loose sign though....  
>  
>  It was pointed in the "Vatican" context. 
Huh?

>   But I'm pretty sure that if a
>  Buddhist displays a swastika in germany, he might get problems, while a
>  swastika is a 4000 year old symbol for Buddhists and represents exactly
>  the oppose that any german would see it. 
And used in a Buddhist context, not interpreted out-of-context, it is
probably fine. 

>  It's a common thing on building logos and stuff. For instance the
> Fedora
>  "blue" would be a great color for Portugal, as it is the blue of the
>  Monarchy and the blue of "Our Lady of Conception", Queen of Portugal. So
>  would be a win. While a purple would probably send us to the "mourning"
>  stuff.
>  Either if we explore it or not, doesn't matter, but it has it's
>  relevance and has scientific basis and a whole lot of studies to back it
>  up. 
This just doesn't seem useful to me, sorry.

>  > Criticizing the photo of Samuele as being offensive specifically
> does
>  > not set a good tone.
>  
>  I have not critized the photo, neither the person. I've criticized the
>  usage of such content that can be harmful in a "flagship" communication.
>  It's a first approach for possible new users, those things should be a
>  bit more thinked of. 
Yes you did. You said the photo could be interpreted as supporting
Satan. That's a critique for sure.

>  Like no one interpreted Nike flame logo... when it reached middle
> east,
>  it was chaos and havoc, while in the Western world was seen as a nice
>  logo with lots of studies backing it up. Eventually it went wrong. 
I doubt anyone would interpret Samuele's photo that way, sorry. 
>  
>  No one can assure that people will be mindful of it. Though we should
>  try to not to commit them. 
Being mindful only gets you so far. I think many of us are fairly
mindful of such things.

>  > No, not at all. Rather, I feel like you're ruminating on an
> unsolvable
>  > problem without providing any solutions to solve it - 
>  
>  seems a bit ironical. Not nice. We have always to believe in the
>  possibility of the impossible to happen.
>   
Curing cancer? Sure, go for it. This? The cost/benefit here is really
out of whack.
>  
>  > Why worry about it if it's not a
>  > problem? It's really quite a stretch of the imagination to be offended
>  > by a picture of three happy guys laughing, wearing Fedora shirts, in the
>  > context of Fedora release notes, with no indications whatsoever of
>  > anything having to do with Satan. 
>  
>  The horns are usually associated with Satan worlwide. 
I'm sorry but I associate actual horns with farm animals, not Satan. For
someone proporting to provide a cross-culturallys-ensitive view, harping
on a highly improbably Satanic connotation is really biased towards the
Judeo-Christian worldview. In China alone, by various estimates there
are 1 billion non-Christian people, so please don't tell me Satans are
associated with Satan worldwide. If you want to talk in a data-centric
manner, then don't make statements that cannot be backed by data. 

>  I know it isn't promoting Satanism. But I also know that some
> people
>  might took advantage of it to launch an attack. That is a part of
>  Marketing, preveting that a brand might be hurt by something out of
>  context or wrongly interpreted. Anyone can actually verify this easilly
>  if they contact the AMA (American Marketing Association). It's just a
>  simple email, they will backup most things I said. 
If people want to launch an attack, they will launch an attack. They'll
find a way. 
>  
>  "Those who can't remember the past are condemned to repeat it" -
>  Alexandre Dumas
>  
>   Though it's a nice quote, I getting the feeling it doesn't fit.
>   On a personal level I would like to consider that we are both working
>  towards the same goal and not opposite. 
I'm done with this thread. Cheers

~m

FYI Fedora 12 one page release notes. :)

[Jorge Mario Marroquin]

Pareciera que  se estan ahogando con un vaso de agua.

Nadie es monedita de oro para agradarle a todo el mundo, siempre vamos a encontrar
personas a las que nuestra forma de pensar no les agrada, generalmente agradaremos al 75%
de la gente, con eso deberia bastar para cualquiera, pienso que ya no se deberia hablar
mas del asunto, lo que esta hecho, hecho esta, ya no se puede corregir, quiza en un futuro
pueda haber un consenso para que esto no vuelva a ocurrir pero lo dudo, creo que a las
cosas cosmeticas no debe ponerseles tanto empeño, lo que importa es el alma, la esencia de
lo que se esta haciendo, sin importar la mascara que se le pone.

Por favor que alguien lo traduzca al ingles.
      

Jorge Mario Marroquín 
PROSERCO 
Celular: (502) 5305-6566


--- El mar, 3/30/10, Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; escribió:

>  De: Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  Asunto: Re: [Ambassadors] FYI Fedora 12 one page release notes.  :)
>  A: "Nelson Marques" <07721(a)ipam.pt&gt;
>  Cc: ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fecha: martes, 30 de marzo de 2010, 05:04 pm
>  On Tue, 2010-03-30 at 22:42 +0100,
>  Nelson Marques wrote:
>  > And it does exist as a verb, but since I'm not an
>  expert in foreign
>  > grammar. I'll pass the debate.
>  > Well, doesn't matter if you agree or not, just search
>  google images on
>  > O.G.'s and such and you will find it.
>  
>  I'm not sure how Google Images is a better authority than
>  Wikipedia,
>  which you criticized earlier.
>  
>  > That wasn't exactly what I had in mind... neither it
>  should probably be
>  > used in that way. I know GNOME is having a rough time
>  having artistic
>  > contributions, as Fedora most likely could use some
>  more artists. That
>  > probably would help you in that way, to get a more
>  accurate perspective
>  > of factors that would lead more people to join our
>  project. See it as a
>  > qualitative approach and not quantitative.
>  
>  I'm sorry, but it seems I am not understanding you clearly
>  here - can
>  you explain then why you propose to set up survey software?
>  What exactly
>  would you survey about, and who would you survey?
>  
>  > > If an Italian in Germany makes a hang loose sign
>  though....  
>  > 
>  > It was pointed in the "Vatican" context.
>  
>  Huh?
>  
>  >  But I'm pretty sure that if a
>  > Buddhist displays a swastika in germany, he might get
>  problems, while a
>  > swastika is a 4000 year old symbol for Buddhists and
>  represents exactly
>  > the oppose that any german would see it.
>  
>  And used in a Buddhist context, not interpreted
>  out-of-context, it is
>  probably fine. 
>  
>  > It's a common thing on building logos and stuff. For
>  instance the Fedora
>  > "blue" would be a great color for Portugal, as it is
>  the blue of the
>  > Monarchy and the blue of "Our Lady of Conception",
>  Queen of Portugal. So
>  > would be a win. While a purple would probably send us
>  to the "mourning"
>  > stuff.
>  > Either if we explore it or not, doesn't matter, but it
>  has it's
>  > relevance and has scientific basis and a whole lot of
>  studies to back it
>  > up.
>  
>  This just doesn't seem useful to me, sorry.
>  
>  > > Criticizing the photo of Samuele as being
>  offensive specifically does
>  > > not set a good tone.
>  > 
>  > I have not critized the photo, neither the person.
>  I've criticized the
>  > usage of such content that can be harmful in a
>  "flagship" communication.
>  > It's a first approach for possible new users, those
>  things should be a
>  > bit more thinked of.
>  
>  Yes you did. You said the photo could be interpreted as
>  supporting
>  Satan. That's a critique for sure.
>  
>  > Like no one interpreted Nike flame logo... when it
>  reached middle east,
>  > it was chaos and havoc, while in the Western world was
>  seen as a nice
>  > logo with lots of studies backing it up. Eventually it
>  went wrong.
>  
>  I doubt anyone would interpret Samuele's photo that way,
>  sorry. 
>  > 
>  > No one can assure that people will be mindful of it.
>  Though we should
>  > try to not to commit them.
>  
>  Being mindful only gets you so far. I think many of us are
>  fairly
>  mindful of such things.
>  
>  > > No, not at all. Rather, I feel like you're
>  ruminating on an unsolvable
>  > > problem without providing any solutions to solve
>  it - 
>  > 
>  > seems a bit ironical. Not nice. We have always to
>  believe in the
>  > possibility of the impossible to happen.
>  > 
>  Curing cancer? Sure, go for it. This? The cost/benefit here
>  is really
>  out of whack.
>  > 
>  > > Why worry about it if it's not a
>  > > problem? It's really quite a stretch of the
>  imagination to be offended
>  > > by a picture of three happy guys laughing,
>  wearing Fedora shirts, in the
>  > > context of Fedora release notes, with no
>  indications whatsoever of
>  > > anything having to do with Satan. 
>  > 
>  > The horns are usually associated with Satan worlwide.
>  
>  I'm sorry but I associate actual horns with farm animals,
>  not Satan. For
>  someone proporting to provide a cross-culturallys-ensitive
>  view, harping
>  on a highly improbably Satanic connotation is really biased
>  towards the
>  Judeo-Christian worldview. In China alone, by various
>  estimates there
>  are 1 billion non-Christian people, so please don't tell me
>  Satans are
>  associated with Satan worldwide. If you want to talk in a
>  data-centric
>  manner, then don't make statements that cannot be backed by
>  data. 
>  
>  > I know it isn't promoting Satanism. But I also know
>  that some people
>  > might took advantage of it to launch an attack. That
>  is a part of
>  > Marketing, preveting that a brand might be hurt by
>  something out of
>  > context or wrongly interpreted. Anyone can actually
>  verify this easilly
>  > if they contact the AMA (American Marketing
>  Association). It's just a
>  > simple email, they will backup most things I said.
>  
>  If people want to launch an attack, they will launch an
>  attack. They'll
>  find a way. 
>  > 
>  > "Those who can't remember the past are condemned to
>  repeat it" -
>  > Alexandre Dumas
>  > 
>  >  Though it's a nice quote, I getting the feeling
>  it doesn't fit.
>  >  On a personal level I would like to consider
>  that we are both working
>  > towards the same goal and not opposite.
>  
>  I'm done with this thread. Cheers
>  
>  ~m
>  
>  --
>  ambassadors mailing list
>  ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>   

     
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FYI Fedora 12 one page release notes. :)

[Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail]

Cultural sensitivity awareness  is not a one way thing ..

No matter what you display everything can be interpreted differently
by different people .. whether you like it or not .. we cant prevent
that .. its impossible ..

symbols interpretation is always relative to culture and surroundings
.. the cross can be interpreted holy by GroupA, but can be interpreted
as an a symbol of insult by GroupB ... but that does not mean GroupB
should be offended if they see a member of GroupA is wearing a cross
..

being sensitive to these differences does not only mean that PersonA
should refrain from doing doing something that's fine in PersonA's
culture if PersonA knows that in the culture of PersonB its an
offensive thing.

but it also mean a PersonA should tolerate if PersonB did something
that to PersonB's culture its fine but offensive to PersonA's culture
..

lets stop this thread pls .. this type of debate will never end ..

-- 
Mohd Izhar Firdaus Bin Ismail / KageSenshi
Inigo Consulting (FOSS/Plone Development, Training & Services)
http://www.inigo-tech.com
Fedora Malaysia Contributor & Ambassador
http://blog.kagesenshi.org
92C2 B295 B40B B3DC 6866  5011 5BD2 584A 8A5D 7331

FYI Fedora 12 one page release notes. :)

[Sergey Podushkin]

Izhar Firdaus пишет:
>  Cultural sensitivity awareness  is not a one way thing ..
>
>  No matter what you display everything can be interpreted differently
>  by different people .. whether you like it or not .. we cant prevent
>  that .. its impossible ..
>
>  symbols interpretation is always relative to culture and surroundings
>  .. the cross can be interpreted holy by GroupA, but can be interpreted
>  as an a symbol of insult by GroupB ... but that does not mean GroupB
>  should be offended if they see a member of GroupA is wearing a cross
>  ..
>
>  being sensitive to these differences does not only mean that PersonA
>  should refrain from doing doing something that's fine in PersonA's
>  culture if PersonA knows that in the culture of PersonB its an
>  offensive thing.
>
>  but it also mean a PersonA should tolerate if PersonB did something
>  that to PersonB's culture its fine but offensive to PersonA's culture
you're right, but we as international multicultural community can, and 
probably must, make such offense as minimal as possible.

Sergey
neverho0d