How to be a Mentor?

[Abdel Gadiel Martínez Lassonde]

Salute to everyone.

I want to be a mentor.  What is needed for it?

-- 
*Abdel G. Martínez L.

Celular:
6125-1563

Correo Electrónico:
abdel.martinez(a)yahoo.com
abdel.martinez(a)utp.ac.pa
abdel.martinez(a)hotmail.es
abdel.g.martinez.l(a)gmail.com*

[Gent Thaçi]

Hi,

Did your read: *https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors*

2010/10/29 Abdel G. Martínez L. <abdel.g.martinez.l(a)gmail.com&gt;

>  Salute to everyone.
>
>  I want to be a mentor.  What is needed for it?
>
>  --
>  *Abdel G. Martínez L.
>
>  Celular:
>  6125-1563
>
>  Correo Electrónico:
>  abdel.martinez(a)yahoo.com
>  abdel.martinez(a)utp.ac.pa
>  abdel.martinez(a)hotmail.es
>  abdel.g.martinez.l(a)gmail.com*
>
>  --
>  ambassadors mailing list
>  ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>  


-- 
Gent

[Joerg Simon]

Am 29.10.2010 13:30, schrieb Abdel G. Martínez L.:
>  Salute to everyone.
>  
>  I want to be a mentor.  What is needed for it? 
Mentors have to get introduced and recommended by existing mentors to
FAmSCo and FAmSCo will consider and approve them. I want to remind that
one focus of Ambassadors is on Teaching and Mentoring new Candidates
into all the Areas of the Fedora Project.


cu Joerg
-- 
Joerg (kital) Simon
jsimon(a)fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JoergSimon
http://kitall.blogspot.com
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[Marcus Moeller]

Dear Joerg.

> > I want to be a mentor.  What is needed for it?
>
>  Mentors have to get introduced and recommended by existing mentors to
>  FAmSCo and FAmSCo will consider and approve them. I want to remind that
>  one focus of Ambassadors is on Teaching and Mentoring new Candidates
>  into all the Areas of the Fedora Project. 
That's especially something I cannot fully agree with. Imho there
should be clear guidelines that have to be fulfilled to become a
mentor. It should not be based on personal preferences of a quite
small group of ppl.

-- 
Greets
Marcus

[David Nalley]

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Marcus Moeller <mail(a)marcus-moeller.de&gt; wrote:
>  Dear Joerg.
>
> >> I want to be a mentor.  What is needed for it?
> >
> > Mentors have to get introduced and recommended by existing mentors to
> > FAmSCo and FAmSCo will consider and approve them. I want to remind that
> > one focus of Ambassadors is on Teaching and Mentoring new Candidates
> > into all the Areas of the Fedora Project.
>
>  That's especially something I cannot fully agree with. Imho there
>  should be clear guidelines that have to be fulfilled to become a
>  mentor. It should not be based on personal preferences of a quite
>  small group of ppl.
>  
This was long debated. However, in the end, we decided that the people
doing the work knew best when a person was ready to be both an
Ambassador and a mentor, and thus, like packaging sponsors, they get
wide leeway in 'sponsoring'. In the end, it's a matter of trusting the
people doing the work, rather than forcing some onerous set of rules
on people. (That said, when I as a mentor have someone ask to be
approved, I have my own set of guidelines that I make the candidate
live up to, and I built those on guidelines writtten by Susmit for
candidates from India, and the mentors have actively discussed
defining their own requirements as well)

As I said, it was debated quite a bit. And it may not be the best
choice, but generally communities seem to work best with as little
structure as needed, and mentors were erected because we deemed that
some structure was needed to ensure we retained the quality of the
Ambassadors program. I won't necessarily try to convince you, but the
idea has been well thought and explored over many months. Perhaps
you'll be on the next FAmSCo and change it. Incidentally this isn't
new, and was announced on f-a-l (earlier this year I believe)


David Nalley

[Marcus Moeller]

Dear David,

> >>> I want to be a mentor.  What is needed for it?
> >>
> >> Mentors have to get introduced and recommended by existing mentors to
> >> FAmSCo and FAmSCo will consider and approve them. I want to remind that
> >> one focus of Ambassadors is on Teaching and Mentoring new Candidates
> >> into all the Areas of the Fedora Project.
> >
> > That's especially something I cannot fully agree with. Imho there
> > should be clear guidelines that have to be fulfilled to become a
> > mentor. It should not be based on personal preferences of a quite
> > small group of ppl.
> >
>
>  This was long debated. However, in the end, we decided that the people
>  doing the work knew best when a person was ready to be both an
>  Ambassador and a mentor, and thus, like packaging sponsors, they get
>  wide leeway in 'sponsoring'. In the end, it's a matter of trusting the
>  people doing the work, rather than forcing some onerous set of rules
>  on people. (That said, when I as a mentor have someone ask to be
>  approved, I have my own set of guidelines that I make the candidate
>  live up to, and I built those on guidelines writtten by Susmit for
>  candidates from India, and the mentors have actively discussed
>  defining their own requirements as well)
>
>  As I said, it was debated quite a bit. And it may not be the best
>  choice, but generally communities seem to work best with as little
>  structure as needed, and mentors were erected because we deemed that
>  some structure was needed to ensure we retained the quality of the
>  Ambassadors program. I won't necessarily try to convince you, but the
>  idea has been well thought and explored over many months. Perhaps
>  you'll be on the next FAmSCo and change it. Incidentally this isn't
>  new, and was announced on f-a-l (earlier this year I believe) 
Thanks for your brief summary. In general I already know most of the
parts and why it is as it is, but a decision taking in an open
community is never good if it demands on personal choices.

So if there are some kind of rules (they do not have to be so
complicated), election won't be based on the I-(don't)-like-your-nose
principal. Of course as we all got nice noses it might work in most
cases, but now always :)

-- 
Greets
Marcus

[Joerg Simon]

Am 29.10.2010 17:39, schrieb Marcus Moeller:
>  That's especially something I cannot fully agree with. Imho
> there
>  should be clear guidelines that have to be fulfilled to become a
>  mentor.  
Why? Please tell me what is bad with the mentors we have already
(s)elected, are they so bad? I think they are great and prove that the
way to choose mentors works fine!

>  It should not be based on personal preferences of a quite
>  small group of ppl. 
These small group of people you mentioned is FAmSCo and the people
involved who do the administration and mentoring on daily basis
regarding Ambassador Membership.

If it is just about mentoring - i think that every Ambassador is doing
that out there anyway - by encouraging new contributors to work in other
groups like Ambassdors - because Ambassadors is not a starting group!


I do not think we need more rules as we already have, but nothing is set
in stone. The way it is working now, was also discussed in an open to
everyone Mentors Meeting
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2010-09-06/fedora-meeti...

Working with people involves peoples decissions and as long as you agree
that we elect steering commitees to give them a voice, i see it also as
imperative that the steering commitees vote on things also based on
personal judgement not on checklists.


cu Joerg

-- 
Joerg (kital) Simon
jsimon(a)fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JoergSimon
http://kitall.blogspot.com
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[Neville A. Cross]

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Marcus Moeller <mail(a)marcus-moeller.de&gt; wrote:
>  Thanks for your brief summary. In general I already know most of the
>  parts and why it is as it is, but a decision taking in an open
>  community is never good if it demands on personal choices.
>
>  So if there are some kind of rules (they do not have to be so
>  complicated), election won't be based on the I-(don't)-like-your-nose
>  principal. Of course as we all got nice noses it might work in most
>  cases, but now always :)
>  
So far mostly I have read why things are like they are.
The topic at hand is how to become a Mentor.
Briefly have been said that it is required to be approved by FAmSCo.

I think that for become a Mentor one have to excel being an
Ambassador. I become a Mentor not because I purposely looked for it,
but because I tried to be as good ambassador as I can be.

A Mentor has to be a very well versed ambassador about the what is
going in Fedora Project. Also has to be a good coach, help people to
get their things right. This requires people skills to be helpful but
not obtrusive, and experience doing things right. So as knowledge and
experience does not come overnight, you need time... how long it
depend in how much you do. But what I consider the catch is that all
this has to be evident, so part of the duties of ambassadors is to
report... you have to be also in reporting activities. This way you
leave evidence of your work, but also you show that you can teach
others this task.

After I have wrote this, I think is kind of the point of how
complicated is to establish guidelines, and procedures to move from
ambassador to mentor. In this sense I view this discussion highly
important.

Probably we need to stablish that mentors are no higher rank
ambassadors, is just another duty, another way to collaborate to the
project. A project that is based on sharing.

I hope this helps Abdel to get a broader picture of the whole mentor thing.

-- 
Neville
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v
Linux User # 473217

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[Joerg Simon]

Am 29.10.2010 18:04, schrieb Marcus Moeller:
>  but a decision taking in an open
>  community is never good if it demands on personal choices. 
than we do not need elections because they are also personal choices


cu Joerg
-- 
Joerg (kital) Simon
jsimon(a)fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JoergSimon
http://kitall.blogspot.com
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[Larry Cafiero]

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Neville A. Cross <nacross(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  Probably we need to stablish that mentors are no higher rank
>  ambassadors, is just another duty, another way to collaborate to the
>  project. A project that is based on sharing.
>
>  
This is an excellent point. I don't know if we need to "establish"
this,
because all along my understanding of being an Fedora Ambassador mentor is
that being a mentor does NOT give one any special privileges or higher rank
-- and I hope that is the way it is across the board in other groups within
Fedora.

A mentor is an Ambassador with the additional responsibilities of helping
those Ambassadors with less experience to gain more experience in promoting
Fedora, provide the tools needed for Ambassadors to promote Fedora, etc.

This larger responsibility, in my opinion, has to be earned and an
Ambassador should be involved and active -- important point: active -- and
know the ins and outs of both the Fedora Project and simple promotional
techniques at the very least (not to mention good people skills) before they
can mentor others.

Further, on the issue of who should be a mentor, there should be some
yardstick or metric (if you're using the metric system :-) ) to measure who
has the ability, desire, talent and responsibility to be one. As a mentor,
there are several ambassadors I can think of who would make good mentors.

Larry Cafiero
Fedora Ambassador Mentor / North America

[Neville A. Cross]

2010/10/29 Larry Cafiero <larry.cafiero(a)gmail.com&gt;:
>  On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Neville A. Cross
> <nacross(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> >
> > Probably we need to stablish that mentors are no higher rank
> > ambassadors, is just another duty, another way to collaborate to the
> > project. A project that is based on sharing.
> >
>
>  This is an excellent point. I don't know if we need to "establish" this,
>  because all along my understanding of being an Fedora Ambassador mentor is
>  that being a mentor does NOT give one any special privileges or higher rank
>  -- and I hope that is the way it is across the board in other groups within
>  Fedora. 
My point here, was because I have been asked this question by fresh
ambassadors. Kind of liking to become a black belt ambassador, or in a
way of what is the next level ... I think that most ambassadors
understand this as a extra work that you may want/enjoy or not doing.

-- 
Neville
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v
Linux User # 473217

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Check: http://www.clickmanagua.com
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[Viji V Nair]

Hi

I wanted to be an ambassador (I was one of them and removed as a part
of "India Cleanup"), but my mentor from India needs 6 months to
promote me, according to him my works are not official. -
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Viji_V_Nair

Because of these new rules my requested to other groups like
"Marketing Group" etc are also on hold.

I am disappointed....

Thanks
Viji

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Neville A. Cross <nacross(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  2010/10/29 Larry Cafiero <larry.cafiero(a)gmail.com&gt;:
> > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Neville A. Cross <nacross(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> >>
> >> Probably we need to stablish that mentors are no higher rank
> >> ambassadors, is just another duty, another way to collaborate to the
> >> project. A project that is based on sharing.
> >>
> >
> > This is an excellent point. I don't know if we need to "establish"
> this,
> > because all along my understanding of being an Fedora Ambassador mentor is
> > that being a mentor does NOT give one any special privileges or higher rank
> > -- and I hope that is the way it is across the board in other groups within
> > Fedora.
>
>  My point here, was because I have been asked this question by fresh
>  ambassadors. Kind of liking to become a black belt ambassador, or in a
>  way of what is the next level ... I think that most ambassadors
>  understand this as a extra work that you may want/enjoy or not doing.
>
>  --
>  Neville
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v
>  Linux User # 473217
>
>  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>  Check: http://www.clickmanagua.com
>  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>  --
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>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>

[Buddhika Chandradeepa Kurera]

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Viji V Nair <viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;wrote:

>  Hi
>
>  I wanted to be an ambassador (I was one of them and removed as a part
>  of "India Cleanup"), but my mentor from India needs 6 months to
>  promote me, according to him my works are not official. -
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Viji_V_Nair
>
>  Because of these new rules my requested to other groups like
>  "Marketing Group" etc are also on hold.
>
>  I am disappointed....
>
>  Thanks
>  Viji
>
>
>  
If this is going to be happen around contributors it would be really a nasty
thing.
Therefore please look into that, I request from FAmSCo new people after
being elected :).

In India it is like Fedora owns for one or some ppl. This should be overcome
soon. Anybody actively working should be able to get the ambassadorship,
there is no point to wait them on a que and test their patient. The final
result is the disappointment and leaving the project.

Personly I feel huge set of procedures and guide lines are not suitable for
a community work. Because we get nothing by promoting Fedora only the
personal satisfaction, then why loads of rules. We do all because we love
FOSS thats all.

Buddhika Kurera (Fedora Ambassador of Sri Lanka)
Editor in Chief - FOSS User magazine

[Joerg Simon]

Am 29.10.2010 18:04, schrieb Marcus Moeller:
>  but a decision taking in an open
>  community is never good if it demands on personal choices. 

reading that again, i have to disagree even more, it is all about
personal choices - decissions by the mentors are done because we trust
them to be able to know what they are doing and that they not jump off
the train 2 month later, when they realize this is hard work. -> The
mentors give their thumbs up to new Ambassadors because they trust them
to get the job done! We are not a company where people are just
exchangeable or just evaluated by numbers or rules - We know about them
personally!

The mentoring process itself is born becaus guidelines/rules no longer
worked to have a good membership process because we had a unbalanced
growth of new Ambassadors with less knowledge about how the Fedora
Project works.

http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=fama.git;a=blob_plain;f=stats/ambassad...

and we could no longer assure the quality of new candidates.

We trust Ambassdars with ressources - and personal trust is nothing that
you can put in guidelines and rulebooks. Same is for new Mentors!


cu Joerg
-- 
Joerg (kital) Simon
jsimon(a)fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JoergSimon
http://kitall.blogspot.com
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[Marcus Moeller]

2010/10/29 Joerg Simon <jsimon(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>  Am 29.10.2010 18:04, schrieb Marcus Moeller:
> > but a decision taking in an open
> > community is never good if it demands on personal choices.
>
>
>  reading that again, i have to disagree even more, it is all about
>  personal choices - decissions by the mentors are done because we trust
>  them to be able to know what they are doing and that they not jump off
>  the train 2 month later, when they realize this is hard work. -> The
>  mentors give their thumbs up to new Ambassadors because they trust them
>  to get the job done! We are not a company where people are just
>  exchangeable or just evaluated by numbers or rules - We know about them
>  personally!
>
>  The mentoring process itself is born becaus guidelines/rules no longer
>  worked to have a good membership process because we had a unbalanced
>  growth of new Ambassadors with less knowledge about how the Fedora
>  Project works.
>
>  http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=fama.git;a=blob_plain;f=stats/ambassad...
>
>  and we could no longer assure the quality of new candidates.
>
>  We trust Ambassdars with ressources - and personal trust is nothing that
>  you can put in guidelines and rulebooks. Same is for new Mentors!
>
>
>  cu Joerg
>  --
>  Joerg (kital) Simon
>  jsimon(a)fedoraproject.org
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JoergSimon
>  http://kitall.blogspot.com
>  Key Fingerprint:
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>
>
>  --
>  ambassadors mailing list
>  ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>  


-- 
Greets
Marcus

[Marcus Moeller]

Dear Joerg,

> http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=fama.git;a=blob_plain;f=stats/ambassad...
>
>  and we could no longer assure the quality of new candidates.
>
>  We trust Ambassdars with ressources - and personal trust is nothing that
>  you can put in guidelines and rulebooks. Same is for new Mentors! 
Yes, but that also means that some candidates e.g. I personally
wouldn't have rejected, have been.

-- 
Greets
Marcus

[Danishka Navin]

Hey Viji,

After long time.
Hope you are doing well.

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Viji V Nair <viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;wrote:

>  Hi
>
>  I wanted to be an ambassador (I was one of them and removed as a part
>  of "India Cleanup"), but my mentor from India needs 6 months to
>  promote me, according to him my works are not official. -
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Viji_V_Nair
>
>  Because of these new rules my requested to other groups like
>  "Marketing Group" etc are also on hold.
>
>  
Please check whether your mentor is actively working for Fedora or not ;-)

I have seen some people who just sending emails but not doing productive
work.
this may be due to internal politics of them.

You should apply for Ambassadorship before leave the RH ;-)

Best Regards,

-- 
Danishka Navin
http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/danishkanavin
http://identi.ca/danishka

[Marcus Moeller]

Hi again,

> >
> http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=fama.git;a=blob_plain;f=stats/ambassad...
> >
> > and we could no longer assure the quality of new candidates.
> >
> > We trust Ambassdars with ressources - and personal trust is nothing that
> > you can put in guidelines and rulebooks. Same is for new Mentors!
>
>  Yes, but that also means that some candidates e.g. I personally
>  wouldn't have rejected, have been. 
and just another side-note: I see much more in mentoring, than
deciding who fulfils the needs of being an ambassadors (and that's
what I have discussed with Mathieu at FUDCon EMEA and is the also part
of the first sentence on the Ambassadors Mentor page:

"Mentors are experienced ambassadors who can help you quickly become
acclimated to the work expected of Ambassadors"

e.g. from my personal experience I felt quiet lost after joining
Ambassadors (in days where you Joerg was the only one who managed the
whole process). I got good contacts to Christoph who then helped me
somewhat to get started, which saved me somewhat.

I know the process has been improved somewhat, so why not lift it up
one level (to how to become a Mentor)?

-- 
Greets
Marcus

[David Nalley]

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Marcus Moeller <mail(a)marcus-moeller.de&gt; wrote:
>  Dear Joerg,
>
> > http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=fama.git;a=blob_plain;f=stats/ambassad...
> >
> > and we could no longer assure the quality of new candidates.
> >
> > We trust Ambassdars with ressources - and personal trust is nothing that
> > you can put in guidelines and rulebooks. Same is for new Mentors!
>
>  Yes, but that also means that some candidates e.g. I personally
>  wouldn't have rejected, have been. 

I think you'll find rejections VERY VERY rare (I'll try and go look at
the numbers)
Most 'time out' from not responding to their mentor. At FADNA this
year, we discussed that something like 98% of the people who do
contact a mentor never responded to the email response from the
mentor.

I just ran a query - there are only 24 mentor rejections out of more
than 1000 tickets (and some of those are duplicate tickets from the
same individuals). E.g. I don't think this is a problem.

[Marcus Moeller]

Hi David.

> >>
> http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=fama.git;a=blob_plain;f=stats/ambassad...
> >>
> >> and we could no longer assure the quality of new candidates.
> >>
> >> We trust Ambassdars with ressources - and personal trust is nothing that
> >> you can put in guidelines and rulebooks. Same is for new Mentors!
> >
> > Yes, but that also means that some candidates e.g. I personally
> > wouldn't have rejected, have been.
>
>
>  I think you'll find rejections VERY VERY rare (I'll try and go look at
>  the numbers)
>  Most 'time out' from not responding to their mentor. At FADNA this
>  year, we discussed that something like 98% of the people who do
>  contact a mentor never responded to the email response from the
>  mentor.
>
>  I just ran a query - there are only 24 mentor rejections out of more
>  than 1000 tickets (and some of those are duplicate tickets from the
>  same individuals). E.g. I don't think this is a problem. 
Okay, maybe it was just in the beginning when mentoring has been
introduced. Please don't get me wrong. I really like the current
process of becoming an Ambassador and the reports also show good
trends.

I just want to make sure there is something similar (does not have to
be such a BIG thing), for becoming a Mentor.

--
Greets
Marcus

[Marcus Moeller]

Dear Joerg.

>  reading that again, i have to disagree even more, it is all about
>  personal choices - decissions by the mentors are done because we trust
>  them to be able to know what they are doing and that they not jump off
>  the train 2 month later, when they realize this is hard work. -> The
>  mentors give their thumbs up to new Ambassadors because they trust them
>  to get the job done! We are not a company where people are just
>  exchangeable or just evaluated by numbers or rules - We know about them
>  personally! 
It would be okay for me if decision of a new Mentor is approved would
be taken by a team of ppl (e.g. FAmSco + active Mentors).

If that's already the case, everything is going well (besides we need
some instructions of how to become a mentor, imho).

-- 
Greets
Marcus

[Joerg Simon]

Am 29.10.2010 20:47, schrieb Marcus Moeller:
>  e.g. from my personal experience I felt quiet lost after joining
>  Ambassadors (in days where you Joerg was the only one who managed the
>  whole process). I got good contacts to Christoph who then helped me
>  somewhat to get started, which saved me somewhat.
>  
>  I know the process has been improved somewhat,  
wow, and we put so much effort in this just "somewhat" and there was so
much discussions on the Ambassador membership and mentoring process
during the last two years and now as we face new elections, you put that
up now as FAmSCo is about summarize the achievemnts from the last period?

Why not at the point where we discussed and announced
the mentors process?

https://fedorahosted.org/fama/wiki/mentoring

or the mentors appointment process?

http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2010-01-07/fedora-meeting...

or during the Mentors meeting (link already posted) or as a response to
the mentors survey?

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Mentors_Survey
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Mentors_Survey_Summary

or after we announced the new Membership Wizard?

http://kitall.blogspot.com/2010/06/tweaked-fedora-ambassadors-membership....

or after we announced the mentor and mentee dispute resolution policy?

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/dispute_resolution

What have you done to improve the Mentoring and Membership Experience
during the last years.

>  so why not lift it up
>  one level (to how to become a Mentor)? 
because the mentoring process works and scales - as well as the mentors
appointment process, show me where we appointed a wrong regional mentor.
Every candidate can write their complaints to FAmA - we got less and we
could solve them all.

https://fedorahosted.org/fama/report/6

There is no need for a lot mentors. We work on improvement for LATAM
(Brazil) and APAC(China), but Membership Management is not our main
purpose in Ambassadors. We do not need all to become Mailing List Admins
or Membership Administrators - we are here to do our job as Ambassador!
We Ambassadors guide new contributors into the project, is this not what
a mentor is doing? This is where we should put our energy - again we
trust every Ambassador with ressources and give them the right to speak
in the name of the whole Fedora Project - there is no level up above
that!!!

We face a new Release and i wished people put this much energy in how we
can promote F14 in the best way - instead bring things up like more
guidelines.


cu Joerg
-- 
Joerg (kital) Simon
jsimon(a)fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JoergSimon
http://kitall.blogspot.com
Key Fingerprint:
3691 0989 2DCA 58A2 8D1F 2CAC C823 558E 5B5B 5688

[María Leandro]

Hello.

I'll try to give an answer that should make all think about what a Mentor
should and must be, and hope to help.

It is true that in LATAM (same that other regions) there is a need of
Mentors to help, guide and contribute to the project. Mentors (as I like to
see it) are those ambassadors that, after a while working on the project and
helping her folks, "deserve" and "win" the right to be considered as
Mentors.

A Mentor (same as Ambassador) must not be someone that "want to contribute",
because the only thing needed to contribute is the will. Instead, a Mentor
and an Ambassador must be people that already are working, and as the rest
of the community see the contributions, is nominated to become one of them.

One of the most regular things I see in the community is that there is a
huge percent of people that thinks that install Fedora in a computer gives
them the right to claim a recognition, there is also other group of people
that helps during years without asking for anything, and sometimes we don't
even know their names... this is the difficult part of work with people that
you probably will never know.

Here is where the Ambassadors and Mentors work comes... to create links
between those contributors, users and enthusiastics that are working to help
us to improove the community; and the group itself know that this group of
people deserve to make a step foward into the "structure". All Ambassadors
and Mentors should contribute to at least one team of Fedora... this is my
perspective.

I have been appart of the community for over a month, and sometimes is good
to give a step back to see the perspective of the team as a sum of
resources, what everyone of us (and as ambassadors and Mentors must do this
question to the candidates) is:

¿Do you think you deserve to be an Ambassador/Mentor?
¿Do you think that the Ambassador/Mentor status will change the way you
help?

Humility is the first feature a contributor must have... the rest will come
by itself. Perhaps I'm a very strict mentor, but the idea is to archieve
goals and make the people archieve their own goals. As another Ambassador
told me once "People comes, People goes" the same must be aplied to the fact
that this is a communitary work, to help people, not to reach status.

Have a nice evening :)




-- 
tatica
Maria Gracia Leandro
http://www.tatica.org
http://www.fedora-ve.org
http://proyectofedora.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MariaLeandro
LinuxUser= 440285
GPG Public Key: E1CDCC56
"Be yourself... Don't be anyone else"

[Abdel Gadiel Martínez Lassonde]

Gracias María, Neville.  Entendí.

2010/10/29 María Leandro <tatica(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;

>  Hello.
>
>  I'll try to give an answer that should make all think about what a Mentor
>  should and must be, and hope to help.
>
>  It is true that in LATAM (same that other regions) there is a need of
>  Mentors to help, guide and contribute to the project. Mentors (as I like to
>  see it) are those ambassadors that, after a while working on the project and
>  helping her folks, "deserve" and "win" the right to be considered as
>  Mentors.
>
>  A Mentor (same as Ambassador) must not be someone that "want to
>  contribute", because the only thing needed to contribute is the will.
>  Instead, a Mentor and an Ambassador must be people that already are working,
>  and as the rest of the community see the contributions, is nominated to
>  become one of them.
>
>  One of the most regular things I see in the community is that there is a
>  huge percent of people that thinks that install Fedora in a computer gives
>  them the right to claim a recognition, there is also other group of people
>  that helps during years without asking for anything, and sometimes we don't
>  even know their names... this is the difficult part of work with people that
>  you probably will never know.
>
>  Here is where the Ambassadors and Mentors work comes... to create links
>  between those contributors, users and enthusiastics that are working to help
>  us to improove the community; and the group itself know that this group of
>  people deserve to make a step foward into the "structure". All Ambassadors
>  and Mentors should contribute to at least one team of Fedora... this is my
>  perspective.
>
>  I have been appart of the community for over a month, and sometimes is good
>  to give a step back to see the perspective of the team as a sum of
>  resources, what everyone of us (and as ambassadors and Mentors must do this
>  question to the candidates) is:
>
>  ¿Do you think you deserve to be an Ambassador/Mentor?
>  ¿Do you think that the Ambassador/Mentor status will change the way you
>  help?
>
>  Humility is the first feature a contributor must have... the rest will
>  come by itself. Perhaps I'm a very strict mentor, but the idea is to
>  archieve goals and make the people archieve their own goals. As another
>  Ambassador told me once "People comes, People goes" the same must be aplied
>  to the fact that this is a communitary work, to help people, not to reach
>  status.
>
>  Have a nice evening :)
>
>
>
>
>  --
>  tatica
>  Maria Gracia Leandro
>  http://www.tatica.org
>  http://www.fedora-ve.org
>  http://proyectofedora.org
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MariaLeandro
>  LinuxUser= 440285
>  GPG Public Key: E1CDCC56
>  "Be yourself... Don't be anyone else"
>
>
>  --
>  ambassadors mailing list
>  ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>  


-- 
*Abdel G. Martínez L.

Celular:
6125-1563

Correo Electrónico:
abdel.martinez(a)yahoo.com
abdel.martinez(a)utp.ac.pa
abdel.martinez(a)hotmail.es
abdel.g.martinez.l(a)gmail.com*

[Igor Pires Soares]

Em Sex, 2010-10-29 às 21:59 +0200, Joerg Simon escreveu:
>  There is no need for a lot mentors. We work on improvement for LATAM
>  (Brazil) and APAC(China), but Membership Management is not our main
>  purpose in Ambassadors. We do not need all to become Mailing List Admins
>  or Membership Administrators - we are here to do our job as Ambassador!
>  We Ambassadors guide new contributors into the project, is this not what
>  a mentor is doing? This is where we should put our energy - again we
>  trust every Ambassador with ressources and give them the right to speak
>  in the name of the whole Fedora Project - there is no level up above
>  that!!! 
IMHO the mentoring process as it is established today is a really good
way to drive new ambassadors into the right direction. Nevertheless the
process of selecting new mentors doesn't seem follow the dynamics of our
community. We lack mentors in some regions, the process is too slow.
What actually happens is that new ambassadors recognize more experienced
ambassadors as their mentors, although these ambassadors aren't "formal"
mentors. That happens all the time in regional mailing lists or even
here.

As Neville pointed out, mentors aren't higher rank ambassadors. So we
just need to help who needs to be helped and get the job done. The
process could be improved in some regions taking in consideration our
local diversities and I believe we will get there, we just need to keep
improving things continuously.

Regards,
-- 
Igor Pires Soares
Fedora I18N/L10N QA
Fedora Ambassador (Brazil)
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Igor

[Shakthi Kannan]

Hi,

--- On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Viji V Nair
<viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
| I wanted to be an ambassador (I was one of them and removed as a part
| of "India Cleanup"), but my mentor from India needs 6 months to
| promote me, according to him my works are not official. -
| http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Viji_V_Nair
|
| Because of these new rules my requested to other groups like
| "Marketing Group" etc are also on hold.
|
| I am disappointed....
\--

People who want to work will work, irrespective of whatever challenges
they face. I am quoting what you wrote to me earlier

=== QUOTE ===

"I have been actively working on fedora since 2007 and I was an
ambassador also. I have quit my job now and working as FOSS consultant
for the last 4 months. I could see that there is a huge gap in the
industry where people are not aware about Linux and OSS. I have met
many guys in this last 4 months and converted 90% to Fedora and FOSS
(can give references). Since I am planning for a full time stuff on
FOSS, I need a proper brand and support to talk to people. I could not
see enough guys in mumbai region doing this, I am also building a team
of FOSS evangelists.

And, what do mean by "official", you only consider fedora "supported"
stuff as a work? According to me, I am working on FOSS, I consider
fedora as a very good distribution to test bleeding edge technologies.

Hope you understand..."

=== END ===

Honestly, I am not interested in what you do otherwise, but, for
Fedora Ambassadorship, doing Fedora work is a must, and I have already
told you that I am only interested in seeing package review comments,
packaging, and advocating the same to others.

SK

-- 
Shakthi Kannan
http://www.shakthimaan.com

[Shakthi Kannan]

Hi,

--- 2010/10/29 Buddhika Chandradeepa Kurera <bckurera(a)fossuser.lk&gt;:
| Anybody actively working should be able to get the ambassadorship,
\--

Agreed.

Repeatedly sending e-mails to a mentor asking if the ambassador
process can be expedited because they want to start their own business
and do their own publicity is ruled out :)

SK

-- 
Shakthi Kannan
http://www.shakthimaan.com

[Kushal Das]

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Viji V Nair <viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  Hi
>
>  I wanted to be an ambassador (I was one of them and removed as a part
>  of "India Cleanup"), but my mentor from India needs 6 months to
>  promote me, according to him my works are not official. -
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Viji_V_Nair 
In India most of the people want to become Ambassador only to have a
title. They don't understand or want to do anything for Fedora.

Having mentors is actually helping us to find real interested people
as we see that in India.


Kushal
-- 
http://fedoraproject.org
http://kushaldas.in

[Viji V Nair]

On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:38 AM, Kushal Das <kushaldas(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Viji V Nair
> <viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > I wanted to be an ambassador (I was one of them and removed as a part
> > of "India Cleanup"), but my mentor from India needs 6 months to
> > promote me, according to him my works are not official. -
> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Viji_V_Nair
>
>  In India most of the people want to become Ambassador only to have a
>  title. They don't understand or want to do anything for Fedora.
>
>  Having mentors is actually helping us to find real interested people
>  as we see that in India.
>  
You mean to say I just want a name, then I wont be paying my flight
charges myself to travel and educate people in colleges about Fedora
and FOSS. I am not mad, its all about passion. Please don't be
arrogant if you don't know the person exactly and what he is upto.

All the community works cannot be recorded and submitted as a proof to
the "mentor" to get promoted. My mentor want more and more proofs

I am working in FOSS more than 10+ years and I was a red hat employee
as well. I don't need the name to work on ....


>  Kushal
>  --
>  http://fedoraproject.org
>  http://kushaldas.in
>  --
>  ambassadors mailing list
>  ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>

[Viji V Nair]

On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:21 AM, Shakthi Kannan <shakthimaan(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Hi,
>
>  --- 2010/10/29 Buddhika Chandradeepa Kurera <bckurera(a)fossuser.lk&gt;:
>  | Anybody actively working should be able to get the ambassadorship,
>  \--
>
>  Agreed.
>
>  Repeatedly sending e-mails to a mentor asking if the ambassador
>  process can be expedited because they want to start their own business
>  and do their own publicity is ruled out :)
>
>  SK 
Hey

This is not a business, please dont comment if you dont know the stuff
actually. I have clearly mentioned that why I want to get promoted
early, I am not charging a single penny for any of the consultation
work I am doing.

Please don't think that all the people in the community is having the
same mentality, publicity and business. I am not interested in both.


>  --
>  Shakthi Kannan
>  http://www.shakthimaan.com
>  --
>  ambassadors mailing list
>  ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>

[Viji V Nair]

2010/10/30 Danishka Navin <danishka(a)gmail.com&gt;:
>  Hey Viji,
>
>  After long time.
>  Hope you are doing well.
>
>  On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Viji V Nair <viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I wanted to be an ambassador (I was one of them and removed as a part
> > of "India Cleanup"), but my mentor from India needs 6 months to
> > promote me, according to him my works are not official. -
> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Viji_V_Nair
> >
> > Because of these new rules my requested to other groups like
> > "Marketing Group" etc are also on hold.
> >
>
>  Please check whether your mentor is actively working for Fedora or not ;-)
>
>  I have seen some people who just sending emails but not doing productive
>  work.
>  this may be due to internal politics of them. 
Don't know, fell like I am applying US visa from a terrorist country.

>  You should apply for Ambassadorship before leave the RH ;-)
>
>  Best Regards,
>
>  --
>  Danishka Navin
>  http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com
>  http://twitter.com/danishkanavin
>  http://identi.ca/danishka
>
>  --
>  ambassadors mailing list
>  ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>

[Shakthi Kannan]

Hi,

--- On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Viji V Nair
<viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
| I have clearly mentioned that why I want to get promoted
| early, I am not charging a single penny for any of the consultation
| work I am doing.
|
| Please don't think that all the people in the community is having the
| same mentality, publicity and business. I am not interested in both.
\--

I shall wait to see some released Fedora work from your end.

Regards,

SK

-- 
Shakthi Kannan
http://www.shakthimaan.com

[inode0]

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Viji V Nair <viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  Hi
>
>  I wanted to be an ambassador (I was one of them and removed as a part
>  of "India Cleanup"), but my mentor from India needs 6 months to
>  promote me, according to him my works are not official. -
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Viji_V_Nair
>
>  Because of these new rules my requested to other groups like
>  "Marketing Group" etc are also on hold.
>
>  I am disappointed.... 
We are all sorry you are disappointed. As the rest of this thread now
demonstrates debating the details of a specific case on a mailing list
never works out well for anyone. If you feel your mentor has treated
you unfairly, or if you feel you have any other grievance about the
behavior of your mentor please consider following the dispute
resolution policy outlined here:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassador_dispute_resolution

I can be available as a mentor from another region who doesn't know
the parties involved to help if you wish.

John

[Onyeibo Oku]

On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 00:17 -0500, "inode0" <inode0(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Viji V Nair
> <viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  wrote:
>  > Hi
>  >
>  > I wanted to be an ambassador (I was one of them and removed as a part
>  > of "India Cleanup"), but my mentor from India needs 6 months to
>  > promote me, according to him my works are not official. -
>  > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Viji_V_Nair 
Oh I see, you have links to personal community builds (packages) on your
fedora wiki page.  And as you stated there, they're not directly related
to fedora.  Is this right? Is it not suggestive and confusing? ... you
may have sincere motives but lines like that can mean anything to
anybody. They may be less misleading on your personal website or your
blog.

>  > Because of these new rules my requested to other groups like
>  > "Marketing Group" etc are also on hold.
>  >
>  > I am disappointed....
>   
Maybe this thread should be discussed in-depth on an agreed freenode
channel (and at an agreed time). Its beginning to acquire some
share/toll percentage on the mailing list.

-- 
Oku, Onyeibo
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Twohot


-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an
                          unladen european swallow

[Joerg Simon]

Am 30.10.2010 01:51, schrieb Igor Pires Soares:
>  IMHO the mentoring process as it is established today is a really
> good
>  way to drive new ambassadors into the right direction. Nevertheless the
>  process of selecting new mentors doesn't seem follow the dynamics of our
>  community. We lack mentors in some regions, the process is too slow.
>  What actually happens is that new ambassadors recognize more experienced
>  ambassadors as their mentors, although these ambassadors aren't "formal"
>  mentors. That happens all the time in regional mailing lists or even
>  here. 
yes and/or because they know them personally - i encourage this and
Ambassadors like Yaakov, Bert or Pierros are doing mentoring work
together with formal mentors several times. I also suggested this to you
as a start, when we spoke about new brazil mentors.

>  As Neville pointed out, mentors aren't higher rank ambassadors.
> So we
>  just need to help who needs to be helped and get the job done. The
>  process could be improved in some regions taking in consideration our
>  local diversities and I believe we will get there, we just need to keep
>  improving things continuously.
>   
+1

-- 
Joerg (kital) Simon
jsimon(a)fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JoergSimon
http://kitall.blogspot.com
Key Fingerprint:
3691 0989 2DCA 58A2 8D1F 2CAC C823 558E 5B5B 5688

[Viji V Nair]

On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Onyeibo Oku <twohotis(a)fastmail.fm&gt; wrote:
>  On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 00:17 -0500, "inode0" <inode0(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Viji V Nair <viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
> > wrote:
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > I wanted to be an ambassador (I was one of them and removed as a part
> > > of "India Cleanup"), but my mentor from India needs 6 months to
> > > promote me, according to him my works are not official. -
> > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Viji_V_Nair
>
>  Oh I see, you have links to personal community builds (packages) on your
>  fedora wiki page.  And as you stated there, they're not directly related
>  to fedora.  Is this right? Is it not suggestive and confusing? ... you
>  may have sincere motives but lines like that can mean anything to
>  anybody. They may be less misleading on your personal website or your
>  blog. 
Agreed, those are not directly related to fedora. Please understand
that most of the people using fedora runs "many community stuff" on
top of it, not only fedora shipped packages. I know many organizations
chose ubuntu because they ships may apps which fedora does not, eg
Eucalyptus.

I am here trying to promote fedora with some additional community
stuff, like PVFS2, reiser4 etc. We are all here to promote FOSS and
Fedora, I believe.

> > > Because of these new rules my requested to other groups like
> > > "Marketing Group" etc are also on hold.
> > >
> > > I am disappointed....
> >
>
>  Maybe this thread should be discussed in-depth on an agreed freenode
>  channel (and at an agreed time). Its beginning to acquire some
>  share/toll percentage on the mailing list.
>
>  --
>  Oku, Onyeibo
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Twohot
>
>
>  --
>  http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an
>                           unladen european swallow
>
>  --
>  ambassadors mailing list
>  ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>

[Viji V Nair]

On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Viji V Nair <viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Onyeibo Oku
> <twohotis(a)fastmail.fm&gt; wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 00:17 -0500, "inode0" <inode0(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> >> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Viji V Nair <viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
> >> wrote:
> >> > Hi
> >> >
> >> > I wanted to be an ambassador (I was one of them and removed as a part
> >> > of "India Cleanup"), but my mentor from India needs 6 months to
> >> > promote me, according to him my works are not official. -
> >> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Viji_V_Nair
> >
> > Oh I see, you have links to personal community builds (packages) on your
> > fedora wiki page.  And as you stated there, they're not directly related
> > to fedora.  Is this right? Is it not suggestive and confusing? ... you
> > may have sincere motives but lines like that can mean anything to
> > anybody. They may be less misleading on your personal website or your
> > blog.
>
>  Agreed, those are not directly related to fedora. Please understand
>  that most of the people using fedora runs "many community stuff" on
>  top of it, not only fedora shipped packages. I know many organizations
>  chose ubuntu because they ships may apps which fedora does not, eg
>  Eucalyptus.
>
>  I am here trying to promote fedora with some additional community
>  stuff, like PVFS2, reiser4 etc. We are all here to promote FOSS and
>  Fedora, I believe.
>
> >
> >> > Because of these new rules my requested to other groups like
> >> > "Marketing Group" etc are also on hold.
> >> >
> >> > I am disappointed....
> >>
> >
> > Maybe this thread should be discussed in-depth on an agreed freenode
> > channel (and at an agreed time). Its beginning to acquire some
> > share/toll percentage on the mailing list. 
sure, we shall invite all the members.

> >
> > --
> > Oku, Onyeibo
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Twohot
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an
> >                          unladen european swallow
> >
> > --
> > ambassadors mailing list
> > ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
> >
>

[Onyeibo Oku]

On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:05 +0530, "Viji V Nair" <viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
wrote:

>  Agreed, those are not directly related to fedora. Please understand
>  that most of the people using fedora runs "many community stuff" on
>  top of it, not only fedora shipped packages. I know many organizations
>  chose ubuntu because they ships may apps which fedora does not, eg
>  Eucalyptus.
>   
>  I am here trying to promote fedora with some additional community
>  stuff, like PVFS2, reiser4 etc. We are all here to promote FOSS and
>  Fedora, I believe. 
In a community driven project/product like Fedora, the general interest
or collective voice of the community supersedes any individual member's
standpoint. The community has agreed, in principle, to follow
established streamlined routes towards realizing their various
objectives. If I recall correctly, there is a process for determining
features that will be included & supported per release.  Its only proper
for you to push for the inclusion reiser4 support (and others) in the
release and follow up that processes (that is, if reiser4 etc. are not
propriety software or license encumbered).

That way, you are directly contributing to the project (hence, it
becomes official). Its possible to maintain your packages off fedora as
an extension of service to others outside the community while observing
fedora community ethics.  That is how to serve FOSS community and be
RIGHT!  However, there is no guarantee that your advocacy will always
win ... remember, its a community.  You suggest it, its deliberated on,
its accepted, ... ITS IN!  Anything else, translates to SOLO work and
fedora project doesn't run that way 

Be reminded that fedora project is pro freedom! Anything code/software
that is not pure FLOSS/Libre is OUT!  Its also unethical to have a link
to such products from within the fedora website.

--  
Oku, Onyeibo
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Twohot

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

[Viji V Nair]

On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Onyeibo Oku <twohotis(a)fastmail.fm&gt; wrote:
>  On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:05 +0530, "Viji V Nair" <viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  wrote:
>
> > Agreed, those are not directly related to fedora. Please understand
> > that most of the people using fedora runs "many community stuff" on
> > top of it, not only fedora shipped packages. I know many organizations
> > chose ubuntu because they ships may apps which fedora does not, eg
> > Eucalyptus.
> >
> > I am here trying to promote fedora with some additional community
> > stuff, like PVFS2, reiser4 etc. We are all here to promote FOSS and
> > Fedora, I believe.
>
>  In a community driven project/product like Fedora, the general interest
>  or collective voice of the community supersedes any individual member's
>  standpoint. The community has agreed, in principle, to follow
>  established streamlined routes towards realizing their various
>  objectives. If I recall correctly, there is a process for determining
>  features that will be included & supported per release.  Its only proper
>  for you to push for the inclusion reiser4 support (and others) in the
>  release and follow up that processes (that is, if reiser4 etc. are not
>  propriety software or license encumbered).
>
>  That way, you are directly contributing to the project (hence, it
>  becomes official). Its possible to maintain your packages off fedora as
>  an extension of service to others outside the community while observing
>  fedora community ethics.  That is how to serve FOSS community and be
>  RIGHT!  However, there is no guarantee that your advocacy will always
>  win ... remember, its a community.  You suggest it, its deliberated on,
>  its accepted, ... ITS IN!  Anything else, translates to SOLO work and
>  fedora project doesn't run that way
>
>  Be reminded that fedora project is pro freedom! Anything code/software
>  that is not pure FLOSS/Libre is OUT!  Its also unethical to have a link
>  to such products from within the fedora website. 
I wont agree, you are not getting my point properly. I took the
reiser4 just as example. If fedora is freedom, we should have the
mentality to accept the community stuff built around it. I am not
asking to include in the main repository, at least don't ignore the
people who does these kind of work and choosing fedora as a platform
by simply saying "you are not official"

I know that I can push it to rpmfusion, even reiser4 will be in
upstream kernel from first quarter of next year (if everything goes
fine). It is not only about the file system like this but also with
the many community project which fedora is not shipping.

As you said it is a "community" stuff and a collective voice of the
community. But dont ignore the people who are trying to something, in
India please see how many events related to fedora is happening every
year.

>  --
>  Oku, Onyeibo
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Twohot
>
>  --
>  http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...
>
>

[Ankur Sinha]

On Sat, 2010-10-30 at 14:50 +0530, Viji V Nair wrote:
>  It is not only about the file system like this but also with
>  the many community project which fedora is not shipping.  
Hello,

In order to keep the thread on constructive lines, can we please have a
list of community projects that you've seen unavailable in Fedora? A lot
of us Ambassadors are also package maintainers etc., and I'm sure can
pick up these and get them to the repositories. 


PS : Obviously, you'll need to check the licenses of these before you
ask us to look into them. If you have projects that are not FOSS, please
join the rpmfusion mailing list and discuss them there. 
-- 
Thanks!
Regards,
Ankur 

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha

"FranciscoD"

[Rahul Sundaram]

 On 10/30/2010 07:10 PM, Ankur Sinha wrote:

On Sat, 2010-10-30 at 14:50 +0530, Viji V Nair wrote:

 It is not only about the file system like this but also with
the many community project which fedora is not shipping.

 Hello,

In order to keep the thread on constructive lines, can we please have a
list of community projects that you've seen unavailable in Fedora?

 I think if the answer is stuff like Reisfers4, then it is a entire
filesystem that needs to be reviewed and merged upstream in the Linux kernel
before being in Fedora due to the packaging guidelines, our general upstream
oriented policy and fact that filesystems are really critical.  I think the
best thing for Viji to do is to remove them from the wiki page (which is a
pretty awkward way of maintaining packages) and maintain them in some proper
repo which accepts kernel modules.  RPM Fusion would be a obvious place for
this.   Having said that,
I personally think, the future is in really in Btrfs and Reiserfs4 is
unlikely to gain much traction.

Rahul

[Rahul Sundaram]

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Viji V Nair <viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;wrote:

>  Hi
>
>  I wanted to be an ambassador (I was one of them and removed as a part
>  of "India Cleanup"), but my mentor from India needs 6 months to
>  promote me, according to him my works are not official. -
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Viji_V_Nair
>
>  Because of these new rules my requested to other groups like
>  "Marketing Group" etc are also on hold.
>
>  I am disappointed....
>  
You have a few misconceptions here.  It is upto to the individual mentors to
figure out what they are comfortable with to accommodate you as a
Ambassador.   "marketing group" in the account system is not used for
anything at all at the moment and since we don't use it, there is no point
in accepting you into that group.  The marketing team is going to discuss
about removing it or making it invite only in their next meeting to avoid
this confusion.

Refer to
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/marketing/2010-October/013515.html

Rahul

[Viji V Nair]

2010/10/30 Rahul Sundaram <metherid(a)gmail.com&gt;:
>  On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Viji V Nair <viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I wanted to be an ambassador (I was one of them and removed as a part
> > of "India Cleanup"), but my mentor from India needs 6 months to
> > promote me, according to him my works are not official. -
> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Viji_V_Nair
> >
> > Because of these new rules my requested to other groups like
> > "Marketing Group" etc are also on hold.
> >
> > I am disappointed....
>
>  You have a few misconceptions here.  It is upto to the individual mentors to
>  figure out what they are comfortable with to accommodate you as a
>  Ambassador.   "marketing group" in the account system is not used for
>  anything at all at the moment and since we don't use it, there is no point
>  in accepting you into that group.  The marketing team is going to discuss
>  about removing it or making it invite only in their next meeting to avoid
>  this confusion.
>
>  Refer to
>  http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/marketing/2010-October/013515.html
>
>  Rahul 

I am sorry to say that, you many need to properly educate your
mentors, Mr. Kaushal told me over IRC that the request is on hold
because I need to prove to my mentor in next 6 months to get promoted
to the Ambassador, Marketing or any other group.

>  --
>  ambassadors mailing list
>  ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>

[Rahul Sundaram]

On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Viji V Nair  wrote
>  I am sorry to say that, you many need to properly educate your
>  mentors, Mr. Kaushal told me over IRC that the request is on hold
>  because I need to prove to my mentor in next 6 months to get promoted
>  to the Ambassador, Marketing or any other group.
>  
Fedora is a large project and it is impossible for any one person to know
everything and we sometimes make assumptions which turn out to be
incorrect.  Is that something that needs to be corrected? Sure but
regardless of how much we educate fellow contributors, we will still
continue to make mistakes from time to time.   The best thing to do is
change the interface to avoid this confusion and after the next marketing
meeting, I expect that to happen. Perhaps any step in the joining process
for marketing is not clear?  Let me know (offlist if you want to) and I can
fix it up.

Rahul

[Kushal Das]

On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Viji V Nair <viji(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:

>  I am sorry to say that, you many need to properly educate your
>  mentors, Mr. Kaushal told me over IRC that the request is on hold
>  because I need to prove to my mentor in next 6 months to get promoted
>  to the Ambassador, Marketing or any other group. 
I misunderstood , I was thinking about Ambassador group, sorry for that.

Kushal
-- 
http://fedoraproject.org
http://kushaldas.in

[Viji V Nair]

Hi Rahul,

2010/10/30 Rahul Sundaram <metherid(a)gmail.com&gt;:
>  On 10/30/2010 07:10 PM, Ankur Sinha wrote:
>
>  On Sat, 2010-10-30 at 14:50 +0530, Viji V Nair wrote:
>
>  It is not only about the file system like this but also with
>  the many community project which fedora is not shipping.
>
>  Hello,
>
>  In order to keep the thread on constructive lines, can we please have a
>  list of community projects that you've seen unavailable in Fedora?
>
>  I think if the answer is stuff like Reisfers4, then it is a entire
>  filesystem that needs to be reviewed and merged upstream in the Linux kernel
>  before being in Fedora due to the packaging guidelines, our general upstream
>  oriented policy and fact that filesystems are really critical.  I think the
>  best thing for Viji to do is to remove them from the wiki page (which is a
>  pretty awkward way of maintaining packages) and maintain them in some proper
>  repo which accepts kernel modules.  RPM Fusion would be a obvious place for
>  this.   Having said that,
>  I personally think, the future is in really in Btrfs and Reiserfs4 is
>  unlikely to gain much traction. 
This is not about reiser4, I took the reiser4 as an example because my
request to ambassadors group got rejected mainly because of "my work
is not official."

My only point here is, there is anything which helps fedora to grow
should not be ignored and treated like this way.

Coming to the packages which fedora generally wont ship, the list is
huge, I can be specific the ones those I have worked on: Even I can
package it, but need to wait for six months?


>  Rahul
>
>
>
>  --
>  ambassadors mailing list
>  ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>

[Rahul Sundaram]

On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:46 PM, Viji V Nair  wrote:

>  My only point here is, there is anything which helps fedora to grow
>  should not be ignored and treated like this way.
>
>  Coming to the packages which fedora generally wont ship, the list is
>  huge, I can be specific the ones those I have worked on: Even I can
>  package it, but need to wait for six months?
>  
Full disclosure:  I am not a Ambassador mentor anymore since I didn't have
time for it and I moved out of it just a few weeks back and have no real say
in the process anymore.  Having said that, if you want my unsolicited
opinion on all this, packaging is not related to Ambassadors .  If the
packages you are interested in cannot be within the standard repositories,
you are free to package it in a third party repo and you don't have to wait
for any period at all.  However if you have the knowledge and interest to
maintain packages,I would invite you to maintain some packages in the
official repository or participate in the review process.  Although
unofficial/ experimental packages can play a useful role in the Fedora
community, mentors would likely be feel more confident with work being done
within the standard repositories.  Besides, participation in processes such
as package reviews helps you gain the knowledge necessary to do packaging
better over time and is a individual benefit regardless of all this.   Hope
that helps.

Rahul

[sankarshan]

2010/10/30 Danishka Navin <danishka(a)gmail.com&gt;:

>  You should apply for Ambassadorship before leave the RH ;-) 
Was that a statement of fact or, was it just a random fly-by statement ?

-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>

[sankarshan]

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:57 PM, Neville A. Cross <nacross(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  Probably we need to stablish that mentors are no higher rank
>  ambassadors, is just another duty, another way to collaborate to the
>  project. A project that is based on sharing. 
Has such an impression been given out by FAmSCo ? That mentors are
first among equals ?

-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>

[Neville A. Cross]

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 1:06 AM, sankarshan <foss.mailinglists(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:57 PM, Neville A. Cross
> <nacross(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>
> > Probably we need to stablish that mentors are no higher rank
> > ambassadors, is just another duty, another way to collaborate to the
> > project. A project that is based on sharing.
>
>  Has such an impression been given out by FAmSCo ? That mentors are
>  first among equals ?
>  
No, I said that we need to clearly state that to avoid fresh
ambassdors to look at mentor status as the required next step. Having
so many things to do in the project, they should feel free to choose
any part to contribute. As I have received this question privately a
few times, I draw the conclusion that mentor may be seeing from a
fresh ambassadors as the "black belt master" or "jedi masters" and
they of course may think that any padawan should go pursue straight
ahead the master status. I hope that I have made myself clear, I have
not said that within any part of the community has grow that idea, but
that I interpreted that from newcomers.

-- 
Neville
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v
Linux User # 473217

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