Anaconda's current ESP default produces a 200MiB FAT16 volume using 4KiB clusters. The Windows 8 and 10 (enterprise) installers use this without complaint. It's Advanced Format 4kn compatible. I see neither an advantage or disadvantage to the change in terms of compatibility. If blivet folks want to make non-removable drive ESPs 260MiB so that they can be formatted FAT32 with a 4KiB cluster by mkdosfs, that's reasonable.
Asking the user about any of this is not reasonable. All of your suggestions have confused me, so there's no way I'd agree to subjecting all anaconda users who have an empty drive and user manual storage configuration to this. I've been wanting to get rid of bootloader UI from custom storage config for years, not make it worse by adding more unnecessary UI options for the user to have to sift through to get a Fedora installation.
About the MSR specifically:
a. Microsoft says the MSR must go immediately before the basic data partition, and your proposal doesn't do that nor can it. [1] b. The Microsoft (Windows 10 Enterprise) installer creates an MSR immediately before the basic data partition, when installed into unallocated space. [2]
On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Bryan Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org wrote:
It's convincing that the ESP needs to use 4KiB clusters to support 4kn drives. But I'm unconvinced any UEFI spec mandates that the ESP needs to be FAT32.
So ... why not give the user the option of FAT32 without confusing them?
Because giving them the option confuses them.
It's suggested that this ought to be true but the language I've seen so far doesn't say it must be true.
And I'm trying to get you to understand that this is a very, very valid option for people who _wipe_ their disks and create a _new_ GPT disk label. Something we can do in Anaconda.
I just did it in Anaconda and followed it up with a Windows 10 installation and I'm not experiencing the problem you suggest needs a solution. So at the moment I think you're confused.
P.S. Please, please understand that I'm just trying to avoid a lot of issues that many people run into, with a simple checkbox when someone installs Linux on a new or wiped disk (not an existing one).
A lot of issues that people run into? This is the first time I've ever heard of this issue and when I tried to reproduce the problem, I couldn't.
[1] "It is particularly important that the MSR be created before other primary data partitions." https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/dn640535%28v=vs.85...
[2] https://paste.fedoraproject.org/359079/
Chris Murphy wrote:
Asking the user about any of this is not reasonable. All of your suggestions have confused me, so there's no way I'd agree to subjecting all anaconda users who have an empty drive and user manual storage configuration to this.
Because you yourself are _not_ familiar either. If anything, you're making a case for when a GPT disk label is created/wiped. Ergo ...
About the MSR specifically: a. Microsoft says the MSR must go immediately before the basic data partition, and your proposal doesn't do that nor can it. [1] b. The Microsoft (Windows 10 Enterprise) installer creates an MSR immediately before the basic data partition, when installed into unallocated space. [2]
The "Basic Data Partition" = C: partition, _not_ "System" partition. It's the _3rd_ partition, after the System and Reserved. [7] [8] [10]
Again, you're making my point for me. There is mass ignorance out there, of even the "Reserved" partition itself, let alone where Microsoft creates it. You just literally told me _wrong_. ;)
I've done hundreds upon hundreds of multi-boot uEFI installs. It's _exactly_ this type of "unfamiliarity" I'm trying to _deal_ with. It's _rampant_, and the Anaconda installer could offer a _single_ checkbox to maximize compatibility.
If you don't believe me, install Windows 8 or 10 x64 and see what it creates for itself. Whether MBR or GPT, you will _always_ get a "System" partition before the "Windows" partition, and if it's GPT, there will be the "Reserved" partition between them.
-- bjs
[7] https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd744301(v=ws.10).aspx [8] https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh825686.aspx [10] https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/dn898510(v=vs.85)....
-- Bryan J Smith - http://www.linkedin.com/in/bjsmith E-mail: b.j.smith at ieee.org or me at bjsmith.me
On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 9:07 PM, Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote:
Anaconda's current ESP default produces a 200MiB FAT16 volume using 4KiB clusters. The Windows 8 and 10 (enterprise) installers use this without complaint.
BTW, I _have_ seen _several_ cases where the FAT16 ESP created by Anaconda is _not_ used by the Windows installer, and creates yet _another_ FAT32 ESP. Sometimes it uses the existing ESP. Sometimes it creates a 2nd ESP.
Yes, FAT16 _is_ compatible. When it doesn't, one can manually move boot files over an "re-target" that ESP in the uEFI firmware, and make the BCD changes for BOOTMGR. But it's a PITA and redundant when it doesn't use it.
If you don't believe me, do several new Fedora installs, then try installing 7, 8 and 10 and see the different scenarios where it does and doesn't use the existing, FAT16 ESP. I've seen several cases with 7 and 8.
Put whatever text in there you want for this. I offered a suggestion. If the installer goes, "Oh, I'm only going to use this blank for Linux," then nothing changes. But if the installer goes, "Well, I might install a non-Linux later," then it's pretty much the one to check.
The mass ignorance of even the existence of the "Reserved" (0C01h) partition, let alone there's not a day that goes by where a Linux site says, "Oh, Microsoft doesn't even use it, I cannot mount it," is part of the problem. I'm just trying to _maximize_ a GPT disk label's compatibility.
-- Bryan J Smith - http://www.linkedin.com/in/bjsmith E-mail: b.j.smith at ieee.org or me at bjsmith.me
On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 6:09 AM, Bryan Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org wrote:
BTW, I _have_ seen _several_ cases where the FAT16 ESP created by Anaconda is _not_ used by the Windows installer, and creates yet _another_ FAT32 ESP. Sometimes it uses the existing ESP. Sometimes it creates a 2nd ESP.
I agree it would be better if Anaconda made an ESP using FAT32 and 4KiB cluster.
How to do that is up to developers. But once that's decided, it should always be done. Presenting the user with an option is incompatible with good UI/Ux. In effect it's an option to make a less compatible layout, which makes no sense to offer.
The mass ignorance of even the existence of the "Reserved" (0C01h) partition, let alone there's not a day that goes by where a Linux site says, "Oh, Microsoft doesn't even use it, I cannot mount it," is part of the problem. I'm just trying to _maximize_ a GPT disk label's compatibility.
Required partitions should be created automatically by the thing that requires them. If the Windows 7 or 8 installer doesn't create an MSR into free space, that's a Microsoft bug and in no possible way is it appropriate for Anaconda to create them.
Chris Murphy wrote:
I agree it would be better if Anaconda made an ESP using FAT32 and 4KiB cluster.
I'm not even saying that.
I'm just saying ...
How to do that is up to developers. But once that's decided, it should always be done. Presenting the user with an option is incompatible with good UI/Ux. In effect it's an option to make a less compatible layout, which makes no sense to offer.
I merely suggested that it would be a good idea, and the only time it shows up, as an option, is when the disk needs to be initialized, and it's booted with uEFI firmware (w/o CSM) for Storage, so we use GPT.
Required partitions should be created automatically by the thing that requires them. If the Windows 7 or 8 installer doesn't create an MSR into free space, that's a Microsoft bug and in no possible way is it appropriate for Anaconda to create them.
The order is ideal after the ESP. Even just Windows writing to a GPT, but not installed on it, should have one.
I.e., this is what got MBR into trouble ... Windows installing bytes in hidden areas, even if it just someone copying files from a FAT32 or NTFS file system with another system Windows system and Windows wasn't even installed on it. Everything I do is for maximum compatibility.
Furthermore, from an alignment standpoint, it's nice to actually have 128MiB on a good boundary. But that's just a bonus.
-- bjs
-- Bryan J Smith - http://www.linkedin.com/in/bjsmith E-mail: b.j.smith at ieee.org or me at bjsmith.me
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