Hello Folks,
Following is my proposal[1] composed some time ago to re-shape the Campus-Am program. However I am presenting it now for comments.
Since there is no activity around this group and since there is a need to have such a group which is described in the proposal I think Campus-Am group can cater the requirement.
This is just an idea and you can grow it. Please support with your ideas and thoughts.
However I am worrying whether the name of the team is confusing.
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Bckurera/Fedora_Campus_Ambaasador
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 8:12 PM, Buddhike Kurera bckurera@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hello Folks,
Following is my proposal[1] composed some time ago to re-shape the Campus-Am program. However I am presenting it now for comments.
Since there is no activity around this group and since there is a need to have such a group which is described in the proposal I think Campus-Am group can cater the requirement.
Yeah, it is sad that what seemed like such a great idea has failed to take hold so many times now. Making it easier and more rewarding for students at all levels of education to become involved with Fedora and to share Fedora with their fellow students would be such a good thing for everyone. I do think one of the reasons it fails is that we are only reaching current Fedora contributors now. We need an outreach program to get new students involved in this program, that was its real point all along. But they are not going to find our wiki by themselves, someone needs to go find them.
This is just an idea and you can grow it. Please support with your ideas and thoughts.
However I am worrying whether the name of the team is confusing.
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Bckurera/Fedora_Campus_Ambaasador
I'm not really clear on what you want to change and why. The current charter I think is quite nice.
John
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 9:38 AM, inode0 inode0@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 8:12 PM, Buddhike Kurera
This is just an idea and you can grow it. Please support with your ideas and thoughts.
However I am worrying whether the name of the team is confusing.
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Bckurera/Fedora_Campus_Ambaasador
I'm not really clear on what you want to change and why. The current charter I think is quite nice.
Thanks John, I really agree with you, we need more contribution from students.
The current Campus Am. program is only for FAm but not for students, limited to FAms[1][2]. If it is possible to widen the range, like anyone who is interested in promoting Fedora by spreading the word (organizing events etc.) can join the team, it would be better. Not each and every interested students towards FAm will not get the chance. This group[3] will be the place for them to hang-on. Not dedicated as FAms but promote Fedora when there is time and opportunity.
Campus FAm is an inactive group at the moment[4]. So why dont we re-structure it and give some life to it. If campus Am is not the right place, we can have a separate team. The idea behind is the important, i believe.
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Campus_Ambassadors#I_am_not_a_Fedora_Ambassad... [2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Campus_Ambassadors#What_is_the_Campus_Ambassa... [3] http://ebckurera.wordpress.com/2012/05/01/initiating-a-new-team-under-people... [4] http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/campus-ambassadors/
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 11:31 PM, Buddhike Kurera bckurera@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 9:38 AM, inode0 inode0@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 8:12 PM, Buddhike Kurera
This is just an idea and you can grow it. Please support with your ideas and thoughts.
However I am worrying whether the name of the team is confusing.
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Bckurera/Fedora_Campus_Ambaasador
I'm not really clear on what you want to change and why. The current charter I think is quite nice.
Thanks John, I really agree with you, we need more contribution from students.
The current Campus Am. program is only for FAm but not for students, limited to FAms[1][2]. If it is possible to widen the range, like anyone who is interested in promoting Fedora by spreading the word (organizing events etc.) can join the team, it would be better. Not each and every interested students towards FAm will not get the chance. This group[3] will be the place for them to hang-on. Not dedicated as FAms but promote Fedora when there is time and opportunity.
I see, the rules were at some point changed. When this program began it was not for ambassadors, but rather for students to get involved with the help, guidance, and support of ambassadors.
Campus FAm is an inactive group at the moment[4]. So why dont we re-structure it and give some life to it. If campus Am is not the right place, we can have a separate team. The idea behind is the important, i believe.
I think the focus being on involving students is the better, more productive focus. But we come back to the problem it always had which is getting students involved. I really support the idea here, so I'm all for trying something new to make it work. I do think the fundamental problem is reaching the students to get them involved.
John
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:10 AM, inode0 inode0@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 11:31 PM, Buddhike Kurera
Campus FAm is an inactive group at the moment[4]. So why dont we re-structure it and give some life to it. If campus Am is not the right place, we can have a separate team. The idea behind is the important, i believe.
I think the focus being on involving students is the better, more productive focus. But we come back to the problem it always had which is getting students involved. I really support the idea here, so I'm all for trying something new to make it work. I do think the fundamental problem is reaching the students to get them involved.
I had a IRC chat with Biertie some days back and he is willing to support for a change. If we change the scope as we can get the students support, I think we can get their involvement, but first we need to have a place to invite them. Therefore we need to change the way the Campus Am team organized.
So the problem is, how Campus Am. team should be changed to get more students' involvement?
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Buddhike Kurera bckurera@fedoraproject.org wrote:
I had a IRC chat with Biertie some days back and he is willing to support for a change. If we change the scope as we can get the students support, I think we can get their involvement, but first we need to have a place to invite them. Therefore we need to change the way the Campus Am team organized.
So the problem is, how Campus Am. team should be changed to get more students' involvement?
I'm afraid changing the organization of the team doesn't solve the problem of getting students interested in it. The team has probably been organized three or four different ways so far and none succeeded. I think the reason none succeeded is our failure to find a way to reach out to students. Making a wiki page inviting them to join us isn't enough. We need a coherent way to market Fedora (the project) to students.
You have my support changing the organization and trying again. I'm just sharing what I took away from the history of the program so far and as I often am I could be dead wrong about it.
John
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:49 AM, inode0 inode0@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Buddhike Kurera bckurera@fedoraproject.org wrote:
I had a IRC chat with Biertie some days back and he is willing to support for a change. If we change the scope as we can get the students support, I think we can get their involvement, but first we need to have a place to invite them. Therefore we need to change the way the Campus Am team organized.
So the problem is, how Campus Am. team should be changed to get more students' involvement?
I'm afraid changing the organization of the team doesn't solve the problem of getting students interested in it. The team has probably been organized three or four different ways so far and none succeeded. I think the reason none succeeded is our failure to find a way to reach out to students. Making a wiki page inviting them to join us isn't enough. We need a coherent way to market Fedora (the project) to students.
It is the like the problem of egg and chicken. We need to have the wiki page ready(established guidelines and team) so that only we can ask them to join with the team. So will first finish it and then we (FAm) can promote it with in students and ask them to join. They will join and hang-on, some will end up with being good FAms, some will just join and forget it.
We have a good potential, we have some GsoC students, we ask them to spread the word and get some of their friends who are interested in. But before we need a place. My effort is to prepare the place first.
You have my support changing the organization and trying again. I'm just sharing what I took away from the history of the program so far and as I often am I could be dead wrong about it.
Thanks and will try to change the history as anything is possible :) , at least will try !
while i agree that we need more contributions from students, and agree that theres a need for a lower barrier of entry group for ambassador, I'm not sure about separation of campus and normal ambassadors.
In my country at least, the students are the ones who tend to have more visible activities, compared to the full-fledged ambassadors, as the normal ambassadors tend to have limited movement either limited due to $dayjob or family.
Most of my events are actually done by these students too, while i'm just facilitating in term of guidance and giving talks in the events. There are some of them which I feel already deserve to be normal ambassador, rather than just campus ambassadors.
how about the change campus ambassador program to be a less-student-specific ambassador apprenticeship program, with a more flexible mentorship system?. ie:
1 - anybody can apply for apprenticeship, regardless whether they are student or not. 2 - they have to contact any nearby, active local ambassadors (if available, else contact regional ambassador), for apprenticeship. 3 - once the person found an ambassador who is willing to mentor him, the person will need to run one or several events, under guidance of that ambassador. 4 - the ambassador responsibility is to guide the apprentice on how to run fedora events, and also help out with getting famsco funds or swags, if needed. 5 - once the ambassador feel that the apprentice is ready to be a full fledged ambassador, forward the apprentice to a ambassador group mentor 6 - from this step on, follow our usual ambassador acceptance flow.
my 2cents ..
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Buddhike Kurera bckurera@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:10 AM, inode0 inode0@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 11:31 PM, Buddhike Kurera
Campus FAm is an inactive group at the moment[4]. So why dont we re-structure it and give some life to it. If campus Am is not the right place, we can have a separate team. The idea behind is the important, i believe.
I think the focus being on involving students is the better, more productive focus. But we come back to the problem it always had which is getting students involved. I really support the idea here, so I'm all for trying something new to make it work. I do think the fundamental problem is reaching the students to get them involved.
I had a IRC chat with Biertie some days back and he is willing to support for a change. If we change the scope as we can get the students support, I think we can get their involvement, but first we need to have a place to invite them. Therefore we need to change the way the Campus Am team organized.
So the problem is, how Campus Am. team should be changed to get more students' involvement?
-- Regards, Buddhike Chandradeepa Kurera(bckurera) Fedora Ambassador - APAC region Event Liaison - Design Team
Email: bckurera@fedoraproject.org | IRC: bckurera _______________________________________________ Campus-ambassadors mailing list Campus-ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/campus-ambassadors
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 11:14 AM, Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail kagesenshi.87@gmail.com wrote:
while i agree that we need more contributions from students, and agree that theres a need for a lower barrier of entry group for ambassador, I'm not sure about separation of campus and normal ambassadors.
In my country at least, the students are the ones who tend to have more visible activities, compared to the full-fledged ambassadors, as the normal ambassadors tend to have limited movement either limited due to $dayjob or family.
Most of my events are actually done by these students too, while i'm just facilitating in term of guidance and giving talks in the events. There are some of them which I feel already deserve to be normal ambassador, rather than just campus ambassadors.
how about the change campus ambassador program to be a less-student-specific ambassador apprenticeship program, with a more flexible mentorship system?. ie:
1 - anybody can apply for apprenticeship, regardless whether they are student or not. 2 - they have to contact any nearby, active local ambassadors (if available, else contact regional ambassador), for apprenticeship. 3 - once the person found an ambassador who is willing to mentor him, the person will need to run one or several events, under guidance of that ambassador. 4 - the ambassador responsibility is to guide the apprentice on how to run fedora events, and also help out with getting famsco funds or swags, if needed. 5 - once the ambassador feel that the apprentice is ready to be a full fledged ambassador, forward the apprentice to a ambassador group mentor 6 - from this step on, follow our usual ambassador acceptance flow.
my 2cents ..
Thanks for your long mail and idea, I have added it to the wiki talk page on the proposal. Personally I like this idea like, before bedimming an FAm the candidate should demonstrate the capacity at-least by organizing a small fedora event.
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail kagesenshi.87@gmail.com wrote:
while i agree that we need more contributions from students, and agree that theres a need for a lower barrier of entry group for ambassador, I'm not sure about separation of campus and normal ambassadors.
Here is the point that seems to get missed every time conversations about Campus Ambassadors comes up. This program is not about ambassadors, it is not about mentoring new ambassadors, it is not about recruiting student ambassadors. It is about building lasting relationships between the Fedora Project and educational institutions. Honestly, it is far more about engaging *teachers* than it is about engaging students because teachers aren't transient and once engaged in open source they will continue to expose many more students to it over the years.
So why have campus ambassadors (student reps, whatever you want to call them)? Because regular ambassadors have not been able to build these lasting relationships with teachers. It isn't the fault of ambassadors. Giving a talk once in a while at a school isn't enough to create them. Students have the advantage that they interact with their teachers daily. And what matters to students matters to good teachers. So having students interested and involved in Fedora (not in ambassadors but in any part of Fedora) is a huge win in terms of access to and influence of teachers that ambassadors will never have.
Fundamentally this program is more about promoting teaching open source than it is about promoting Fedora itself.
In my country at least, the students are the ones who tend to have more visible activities, compared to the full-fledged ambassadors, as the normal ambassadors tend to have limited movement either limited due to $dayjob or family.
Most of my events are actually done by these students too, while i'm just facilitating in term of guidance and giving talks in the events. There are some of them which I feel already deserve to be normal ambassador, rather than just campus ambassadors.
how about the change campus ambassador program to be a less-student-specific ambassador apprenticeship program, with a more flexible mentorship system?. ie:
1 - anybody can apply for apprenticeship, regardless whether they are student or not. 2 - they have to contact any nearby, active local ambassadors (if available, else contact regional ambassador), for apprenticeship. 3 - once the person found an ambassador who is willing to mentor him, the person will need to run one or several events, under guidance of that ambassador. 4 - the ambassador responsibility is to guide the apprentice on how to run fedora events, and also help out with getting famsco funds or swags, if needed. 5 - once the ambassador feel that the apprentice is ready to be a full fledged ambassador, forward the apprentice to a ambassador group mentor 6 - from this step on, follow our usual ambassador acceptance flow.
It is fine if you would like the mentoring process for ambassadors to be different but the place to sell that idea is with the ambassadors at large, with FAmSCo, and with FAmA. It is an entirely different proposal that shouldn't sneak in the back door via the campus ambassador program.
John
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:32 PM, inode0 inode0@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail kagesenshi.87@gmail.com wrote:
while i agree that we need more contributions from students, and agree that theres a need for a lower barrier of entry group for ambassador, I'm not sure about separation of campus and normal ambassadors.
Here is the point that seems to get missed every time conversations about Campus Ambassadors comes up. This program is not about ambassadors, it is not about mentoring new ambassadors, it is not about recruiting student ambassadors. It is about building lasting relationships between the Fedora Project and educational institutions. Honestly, it is far more about engaging *teachers* than it is about engaging students because teachers aren't transient and once engaged in open source they will continue to expose many more students to it over the years.
So why have campus ambassadors (student reps, whatever you want to call them)? Because regular ambassadors have not been able to build these lasting relationships with teachers. It isn't the fault of ambassadors. Giving a talk once in a while at a school isn't enough to create them. Students have the advantage that they interact with their teachers daily. And what matters to students matters to good teachers. So having students interested and involved in Fedora (not in ambassadors but in any part of Fedora) is a huge win in terms of access to and influence of teachers that ambassadors will never have.
Fundamentally this program is more about promoting teaching open source than it is about promoting Fedora itself.
still, i dont see a reason for a separate group.. what's wrong with accepting students as normal ambassador? and run a campus/educator promotion program which any ambassadors may choose to pitch in and help when they feel like it, or have access to the sector (eg: have friends who are educators).
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail kagesenshi.87@gmail.com wrote:
still, i dont see a reason for a separate group.. what's wrong with accepting students as normal ambassador? and run a campus/educator promotion program which any ambassadors may choose to pitch in and help when they feel like it, or have access to the sector (eg: have friends who are educators).
or the ambassador is a non-academic staff in an educational institute .. of which, i know several people (not officially ambassadors, yet) who are promoting fedora/foss in the institute they work in .. to both lecturers and students
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail kagesenshi.87@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail kagesenshi.87@gmail.com wrote:
still, i dont see a reason for a separate group.. what's wrong with accepting students as normal ambassador? and run a campus/educator promotion program which any ambassadors may choose to pitch in and help when they feel like it, or have access to the sector (eg: have friends who are educators).
or the ambassador is a non-academic staff in an educational institute .. of which, i know several people (not officially ambassadors, yet) who are promoting fedora/foss in the institute they work in .. to both lecturers and students
Right, I happen to be one of those people myself. Staff access to teachers is different than student access to teachers and honestly we only have a sprinkling of staff/ambassador presence now in educational institutions. This program was simply an attempt to get more buy-in from teachers and it would happen to engage more students as a bonus. I can't see why anyone would resist it in its abstract formulation.
John
Right, I happen to be one of those people myself. Staff access to teachers is different than student access to teachers and honestly we only have a sprinkling of staff/ambassador presence now in educational institutions. This program was simply an attempt to get more buy-in from teachers and it would happen to engage more students as a bonus. I can't see why anyone would resist it in its abstract formulation.
just to be clear .. i agree and support the idea of the initiative :-) .. just not the part where its a separate group ..
if the reason why it need a separate group is its more difficult to be a full-fledged ambassador (the "Who can join?" and "Eligibility" section in wiki looks more lenient, with lower barrier of entry), then , imo, it should be made easier :-)
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail kagesenshi.87@gmail.com wrote:
Right, I happen to be one of those people myself. Staff access to teachers is different than student access to teachers and honestly we only have a sprinkling of staff/ambassador presence now in educational institutions. This program was simply an attempt to get more buy-in from teachers and it would happen to engage more students as a bonus. I can't see why anyone would resist it in its abstract formulation.
just to be clear .. i agree and support the idea of the initiative :-) .. just not the part where its a separate group ..
if the reason why it need a separate group is its more difficult to be a full-fledged ambassador (the "Who can join?" and "Eligibility" section in wiki looks more lenient, with lower barrier of entry), then , imo, it should be made easier :-)
That is not the reason at all. There is no expectation whatsoever that the student will end up being an ambassador for Fedora although that would be a nice bonus if it happened. This simply is not about ambassadors, who is and who isn't an ambassador or how they become ambassadors.
Campus ambassadors are not some inferior class of Fedora ambassadors. We should call them Campus Open Source Representatives or something else if we can't avoid this confusion.
This is about having students who have an interest in open source engaging their faculty/teachers (and other students as well) about that interest. Fedora ambassadors are trying to help them do that. Suppose a student has a keen interest in methods used to provision datacenters and wants to study that subject. How many high school teachers have heard of puppet or anything else that might fall into this interest area? By helping this student work with his/her teacher we might end up having one more teacher in the world who knows about open source technologies and who might become interested in teaching about open source technologies in the future.
This really is the expressed mission of the Fedora Project. "The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the advancement of free and open source software and content as a collaborative community." So Fedora ambassadors would like to reach out to more students who have interests that overlap our interests. We would like to engage a broader community to collaborate with, namely the community of teachers. And the Campus Ambassadors program was intended to be the vehicle to do this.
John
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 9:32 PM, inode0 inode0@gmail.com wrote:
Campus ambassadors are not some inferior class of Fedora ambassadors. We should call them Campus Open Source Representatives or something else if we can't avoid this confusion.
Hello
Thanks John and Izhar for inputs. I believe the name is a confusion as noted.Being clear, what we want through this group is to reach students/ teachers or any academic related person.
Not every student want to be a FAm, if anyone is interested to promote Fedora/ Free software they can join with the group and get the FAms help and promote Fedora/ Free Software when they have time. There is not much commitment required. I strongly believe the name "Campus Ambassador" imply that the group is a sub group of FAm. Therefore we should eliminate the confusion. We need a group for that since we dont have a team to facilitate such requirement.
The idea behind is simple. If any academic related person wants to promote Fedora or FOSS with the help of Fedora, they can join with the team. When ever they need help FAm will support them.
However what would be the next step? Please express your ideas and will implement the discussion to work !
Thanks for the support.
On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 8:44 PM, Buddhike Kurera bckurera@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 9:32 PM, inode0 inode0@gmail.com wrote:
Campus ambassadors are not some inferior class of Fedora ambassadors. We should call them Campus Open Source Representatives or something else if we can't avoid this confusion.
Hello
Thanks John and Izhar for inputs. I believe the name is a confusion as noted.Being clear, what we want through this group is to reach students/ teachers or any academic related person.
Not every student want to be a FAm, if anyone is interested to promote Fedora/ Free software they can join with the group and get the FAms help and promote Fedora/ Free Software when they have time. There is not much commitment required. I strongly believe the name "Campus Ambassador" imply that the group is a sub group of FAm. Therefore we should eliminate the confusion. We need a group for that since we dont have a team to facilitate such requirement.
The idea behind is simple. If any academic related person wants to promote Fedora or FOSS with the help of Fedora, they can join with the team. When ever they need help FAm will support them.
However what would be the next step? Please express your ideas and will implement the discussion to work !
Thanks for the support.
There was at least hope in the beginning that there would be a dovetailing with Teaching Open Source/POSSE.
http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE
Maybe it is time to change the goals, but perhaps we should just decide again what the exact goals are going to be and that will help clarify things to participants.
John
There was at least hope in the beginning that there would be a dovetailing with Teaching Open Source/POSSE.
http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE
Maybe it is time to change the goals, but perhaps we should just decide again what the exact goals are going to be and that will help clarify things to participants.
Hurm ... i'm not sure whether this small project of mine can fit in this somewhere, but i'll mention this anyway :P
<shamelessplug> I have this little project that have been done several times now, called CampusCamp (http://campuscamp.org). though its more of a Free Culture thing rather than Free Software
The idea is to get students to organize their own barcamp in their campus, to get students/lecturers/staff to give talks, run activities, and share knowledge in general.
The goal is to hopefully build campus communities through providing a platform for people to meet up and share stuff regularly (eg: every academic term). Besides that, we hope to encourage a culture of sharing and contribution among students/lecturers/staff.
Its more of a Free Culture thing than FOSS though, but of course, students/lecturers/staff with Fedora/FOSS interest can always slip in Fedora/FOSS related sessions. </shamelessplug>
So far 2 campuscamp have been run at my previous university, organized by my juniors there, and I just got some students to run CampusCamp at the college which host FUDCon KL sometime after FUDCon KL, and another group of students from another university to run it at theirs.
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail kagesenshi.87@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:32 PM, inode0 inode0@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail kagesenshi.87@gmail.com wrote:
while i agree that we need more contributions from students, and agree that theres a need for a lower barrier of entry group for ambassador, I'm not sure about separation of campus and normal ambassadors.
Here is the point that seems to get missed every time conversations about Campus Ambassadors comes up. This program is not about ambassadors, it is not about mentoring new ambassadors, it is not about recruiting student ambassadors. It is about building lasting relationships between the Fedora Project and educational institutions. Honestly, it is far more about engaging *teachers* than it is about engaging students because teachers aren't transient and once engaged in open source they will continue to expose many more students to it over the years.
So why have campus ambassadors (student reps, whatever you want to call them)? Because regular ambassadors have not been able to build these lasting relationships with teachers. It isn't the fault of ambassadors. Giving a talk once in a while at a school isn't enough to create them. Students have the advantage that they interact with their teachers daily. And what matters to students matters to good teachers. So having students interested and involved in Fedora (not in ambassadors but in any part of Fedora) is a huge win in terms of access to and influence of teachers that ambassadors will never have.
Fundamentally this program is more about promoting teaching open source than it is about promoting Fedora itself.
still, i dont see a reason for a separate group.. what's wrong with accepting students as normal ambassador? and run a campus/educator promotion program which any ambassadors may choose to pitch in and help when they feel like it, or have access to the sector (eg: have friends who are educators).
There is nothing wrong with students joining the ambassador group. There is nothing wrong with ambassadors working with teachers directly where and when they can. Both of those happen routinely.
But that hasn't been enough to get the penetration that we would like to see in the education field. Campus ambassadors (or call them something else) was an effort to try something different that might in time provide a better result.
John
campus-ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org
-
Buddhike Kurera -
inode0 -
Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail