dnf migration period

[Mike Ruckman]

Greetings fellow cloudies!

This bug (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1201655) spawned a
conversation on IRC that we thought should be moved here to the list.

With the migration from yum to dnf in full swing, we've got to figure
out what the intent translates to regarding packages installed on the
cloud image. Currently, yum is not installed on the cloud images, only
dnf. Judging by this discussion during a fesco meeting [0], this is
known and expected.

The other flavors (Workstation and Server) both have yum installed upon
fresh installation. libreport pulls yum in as a dep - so yum is only
there until libreport gets migrated. The question for us is, do we want
a migration period for cloud users to have time to migrate their tools
to dnf? I think from a mere usability standpoint, it makes sense to have
yum and dnf installed alongside each other so things don't break; but I
can see both sides of the argument.

More information on the history of this discussion can be found in the
meeting log [0], and this fesco ticket [1].

Thoughts?

[0]
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teams/fesco/fesco.2015-02-25-18.01.log.html
[1] https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1312

[David Gay]

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Ruckman" 
> To: "Fedora Cloud SIG" 
> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2015 11:29:28 AM
> Subject: dnf migration period
>
> Greetings fellow cloudies!
>
> This bug (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1201655) spawned a
> conversation on IRC that we thought should be moved here to the list.
>
> With the migration from yum to dnf in full swing, we've got to figure
> out what the intent translates to regarding packages installed on the
> cloud image. Currently, yum is not installed on the cloud images, only
> dnf. Judging by this discussion during a fesco meeting [0], this is
> known and expected.
>
> The other flavors (Workstation and Server) both have yum installed upon
> fresh installation. libreport pulls yum in as a dep - so yum is only
> there until libreport gets migrated. The question for us is, do we want
> a migration period for cloud users to have time to migrate their tools
> to dnf? I think from a mere usability standpoint, it makes sense to have
> yum and dnf installed alongside each other so things don't break; but I
> can see both sides of the argument.
>
> More information on the history of this discussion can be found in the
> meeting log [0], and this fesco ticket [1].
>
> Thoughts?
>
> [0]
> http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teams/fesco/fesco.2015-02-25-18.01.log.html
> [1] https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1312
>
> --
> // Mike
> --
> Fedora QA
> freenode: roshi
> http://roshi.fedorapeople.org
> _______________________________________________
> cloud mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud
> Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct

I don't see a problem with keeping both installed alongside each other for now, as long as people are aware that they *need* to migrate to dnf. We don't want a Python 2 -> 3 "migration period". :P

-- David

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 03/13/2015 03:05 PM, David Gay wrote:
> I don't see a problem with keeping both installed alongside each other
> for now, as long as people are aware that they *need* to migrate to dnf.
> We don't want a Python 2 -> 3 "migration period". :P

One release cycle should do it.

Ideally we would have messaged this very loudly last release cycle. I
feel like I dropped the ball a bit not making it a core part of the
release announcement.

Best,

jzb

[Dusty Mabe]

On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 03:10:50PM -0400, Joe Brockmeier wrote:
> On 03/13/2015 03:05 PM, David Gay wrote:
> > I don't see a problem with keeping both installed alongside each other
> > for now, as long as people are aware that they *need* to migrate to dnf.
> > We don't want a Python 2 -> 3 "migration period". :P
>
> One release cycle should do it.
>
> Ideally we would have messaged this very loudly last release cycle. I
> feel like I dropped the ball a bit not making it a core part of the
> release announcement.

Either way Fedora as a whole should take a consistent approach. I
think if we deliberately add yum to our kickstart then the other
products should do the same (even if it is currently being brought in
by a dependency in some products already). I don't think we should
rely on a side-effect for it to get included or not included.

Dusty

[Matthew Miller]

On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 03:53:06PM -0400, Dusty Mabe wrote:
> Either way Fedora as a whole should take a consistent approach. I
> think if we deliberately add yum to our kickstart then the other
> products should do the same (even if it is currently being brought in
> by a dependency in some products already). I don't think we should
> rely on a side-effect for it to get included or not included.

Particularly, since it isn't completely compatible, we should be
consistent with whether yum or dnf-yum is installed.

[M. Edward (Ed) Borasky]

For cloud images I don't have a problem with dnf-only or dnf-plus-yum.
But for a *Docker* image having both dnf and yum or both python2 and
python3 is going to be a nightmare for me - the base images will be
too big.

I'm guessing it's too late in the F22 release cycle for major changes
on the Docker image base. I've got my workstation-based code ported
from yum to dnf so I'm fine there. But I'm really concerned on the
Docker image front. I'll test anything you've got. ;-)

On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Matthew Miller
 wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 03:53:06PM -0400, Dusty Mabe wrote:
> > Either way Fedora as a whole should take a consistent approach. I
> > think if we deliberately add yum to our kickstart then the other
> > products should do the same (even if it is currently being brought in
> > by a dependency in some products already). I don't think we should
> > rely on a side-effect for it to get included or not included.
>
> Particularly, since it isn't completely compatible, we should be
> consistent with whether yum or dnf-yum is installed.
>
> --
> Matthew Miller
>
> Fedora Project Leader
> _______________________________________________
> cloud mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud
> Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct

[Attila Fazekas]

I do not need `yum`-legacy to be installed,
I would like dnf to listen to the `yum` name by default.

[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1201655

----- Original Message -----
> From: "M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" 
> To: "Fedora Cloud SIG" 
> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2015 10:08:30 PM
> Subject: Re: dnf migration period
>
> For cloud images I don't have a problem with dnf-only or dnf-plus-yum.
> But for a *Docker* image having both dnf and yum or both python2 and
> python3 is going to be a nightmare for me - the base images will be
> too big.
>
> I'm guessing it's too late in the F22 release cycle for major changes
> on the Docker image base. I've got my workstation-based code ported
> from yum to dnf so I'm fine there. But I'm really concerned on the
> Docker image front. I'll test anything you've got. ;-)
>
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Matthew Miller
>  wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 03:53:06PM -0400, Dusty Mabe wrote:
> > > Either way Fedora as a whole should take a consistent approach. I
> > > think if we deliberately add yum to our kickstart then the other
> > > products should do the same (even if it is currently being brought in
> > > by a dependency in some products already). I don't think we should
> > > rely on a side-effect for it to get included or not included.
> >
> > Particularly, since it isn't completely compatible, we should be
> > consistent with whether yum or dnf-yum is installed.
> >
> > --
> > Matthew Miller
> >
> > Fedora Project Leader
> > _______________________________________________
> > cloud mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud
> > Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
>
> --
> OSJourno: Robust Power Tools for Digital Journalists
> http://www.znmeb.mobi/stories/osjourno-robust-power-tools-for-digital-journa...
>
> Remember, if you're traveling to Bactria, Hump Day is Tuesday and Thursday.
> _______________________________________________
> cloud mailing list
> [e-mail]
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> Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct

[Josh Boyer]

On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 4:48 AM, Attila Fazekas  wrote:
> I do not need `yum`-legacy to be installed,
> I would like dnf to listen to the `yum` name by default.

There is a package called dnf-yum that can do this, but FESCo has said
it is not to be installed by default.  DNF and yum are not identical
in behavior or supported commands.

josh

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Josh Boyer  wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 4:48 AM, Attila Fazekas wrote:
> > I do not need `yum`-legacy to be installed,
> > I would like dnf to listen to the `yum` name by default.
>
> There is a package called dnf-yum that can do this, but FESCo has said
> it is not to be installed by default.  DNF and yum are not identical
> in behavior or supported commands.

Would you mind posting the ticket or meeting mins for FESCO's decision?

Rahul

[Dennis Gilmore]

On Friday, March 13, 2015 03:05:37 PM David Gay wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mike Ruckman" 
> > To: "Fedora Cloud SIG" 
> > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2015 11:29:28 AM
> > Subject: dnf migration period
> >
> > Greetings fellow cloudies!
> >
> > This bug (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1201655) spawned a
> > conversation on IRC that we thought should be moved here to the list.
> >
> > With the migration from yum to dnf in full swing, we've got to figure
> > out what the intent translates to regarding packages installed on the
> > cloud image. Currently, yum is not installed on the cloud images, only
> > dnf. Judging by this discussion during a fesco meeting [0], this is
> > known and expected.
> >
> > The other flavors (Workstation and Server) both have yum installed upon
> > fresh installation. libreport pulls yum in as a dep - so yum is only
> > there until libreport gets migrated. The question for us is, do we want
> > a migration period for cloud users to have time to migrate their tools
> > to dnf? I think from a mere usability standpoint, it makes sense to have
> > yum and dnf installed alongside each other so things don't break; but I
> > can see both sides of the argument.
> >
> > More information on the history of this discussion can be found in the
> > meeting log [0], and this fesco ticket [1].
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > [0]
> > http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teams/fesco/fesco.2015-02-25-18.01.log.ht
> > ml [1] https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1312
> >
> > --
> > // Mike
> > --
> > Fedora QA
> > freenode: roshi
> > http://roshi.fedorapeople.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > cloud mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud
> > Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
>
> I don't see a problem with keeping both installed alongside each other for
> now, as long as people are aware that they *need* to migrate to dnf. We
> don't want a Python 2 -> 3 "migration period". :P

dnf in rawhide is python3 based

Dennis