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Hiya,
I wanted to collect some data on how well whatcanidoforfedora.org works. This is the initial set of questions I've come up with. Could I request folks to please see if they're OK and suggest adding/removing some to improve the data we'll collect from this?
- - are you an existing contributor or a newbie? - - did the site succeed in matching you to a team or task? - - how much time/effort did it take? - - do you feel the site took you through the correct steps to match you to the team/task? - - do you feel it is the correct team or task for you? Why? - - did you undertake the task/join the team? - - did you find the site easy/difficult/confusing to use? - - what language did you use the site in? - - do you feel more confident about being a community member after using the site? - - do you feel that using the site has helped you learn more about the community and the project? - - how do you feel the site can be improved?
I want to learn a few things here: - - do people actually use whatcanido and get anywhere? - - I feel the questions/suggestions are now a bit too specific. I ended up on "anaconda" in a test run, and in "docs beats" in another. I really don't expect a newbie to take either one of these up - they don't know anything about the community, neither the anaconda team, nor the docs team. Can we expect them to become part of the community by undertaking such specific, complicated tasks? So, while whatcanido is a place where you go to find "open tasks", I don't think it's a newbie onboarding tool at the moment. - - does the site give people a general idea of how the community functions?
Ideas/comments/feedback?
I don't know if we can find one place to collect all the feedback - if nothing comes up, I'll just ask people to e-mail me and I can manually collate the information? - -- Thanks, Regards, Ankur Sinha "FranciscoD"
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha
On 08/30/2016 06:58 PM, Ankur Sinha wrote:
[ snip ]
Hey Ankur, I think this is an excellent idea. :) I see you've gotten some responses so far on the Join SIG mailing list and possibly more in private. Have you considered writing a Community Blog article to possible try to bring in some more feedback? That might be one way for you to reach out to a wider audience!
Hiya!
On Fri, 2016-09-02 at 05:26 -0400, Justin W. Flory wrote:
Hey Ankur, I think this is an excellent idea. :) I see you've gotten some responses so far on the Join SIG mailing list and possibly more in private. Have you considered writing a Community Blog article to possible try to bring in some more feedback? That might be one way for you to reach out to a wider audience!
What do folks think of a community blog post requesting feedback on both wcidff[1] and the new join.fp.o demo[2]?
We will need to fix up a way of doing the survey, though. Options:
- Comments section of post - Google drive form thingy - A Disqus thread? - Email - mailing list/private?
Comments?
Forgot the links :D
On Thu, 2016-09-15 at 11:57 +0100, Ankur Sinha wrote:
What do folks think of a community blog post requesting feedback on both wcidff[1] and the new join.fp.o demo[2]?
We will need to fix up a way of doing the survey, though. Options:
- Comments section of post
- Google drive form thingy
- A Disqus thread?
- Email - mailing list/private?
Comments?
[1] https://whatcanidoforfedora.org [2] https://ankursinha.fedorapeople.org/join-v2/
On 09/15/2016 07:57 AM, Ankur Sinha wrote:
Forgot the links :D
On Thu, 2016-09-15 at 11:57 +0100, Ankur Sinha wrote:
What do folks think of a community blog post requesting feedback on both wcidff[1] and the new join.fp.o demo[2]?
We will need to fix up a way of doing the survey, though. Options:
- Comments section of post
- Google drive form thingy
- A Disqus thread?
- Email - mailing list/private?
Comments?
[1] https://whatcanidoforfedora.org [2] https://ankursinha.fedorapeople.org/join-v2/
I think a Community Blog post is a good idea to gather feedback. I would opt for using either the comments on the post or a mailing list for gathering feedback, but I think you should use the tool that does the best job for you to collect helpful feedback (but I really think having it public / open would be best since there's other stakeholders involved with wcidff).
On 08/30/2016 06:58 PM, Ankur Sinha wrote:
- I feel the questions/suggestions are now a bit too specific. I ended
up on "anaconda" in a test run, and in "docs beats" in another. I really don't expect a newbie to take either one of these up - they don't know anything about the community, neither the anaconda team, nor the docs team. Can we expect them to become part of the community by undertaking such specific, complicated tasks?
I think those are both fine teams to start out with and both have decent onboarding processes. So I'm not sure what the problem is.
~m
On 09/15/2016 09:33 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote:
On 08/30/2016 06:58 PM, Ankur Sinha wrote:
- I feel the questions/suggestions are now a bit too specific. I ended
up on "anaconda" in a test run, and in "docs beats" in another. I really don't expect a newbie to take either one of these up - they don't know anything about the community, neither the anaconda team, nor the docs team. Can we expect them to become part of the community by undertaking such specific, complicated tasks?
I think those are both fine teams to start out with and both have decent onboarding processes. So I'm not sure what the problem is.
~m
I think what Ankur was trying to portray was that these might be tasks easy for someone with some technical knowledge to try picking up or if a person has experience working in other open source projects. If a person is a new contributor to open source or unfamiliar with the community structure of Fedora. While the on-boarding processes for each area are well-defined, I believe what Ankur was hoping to accomplish was something that introduces the broader Fedora community to a newcomer and gets them familiar with the Fedora ecosystem.
I also think it is worth stressing that having WCIDFF point to some more advanced projects or big topics is a good idea for existing contributors looking for new areas to contribute or outsiders coming in with plenty of experience or having contributed to other projects. I think WCIDFF assumes a broad definition of what a "newcomer" is, while this site assumes a newcomer is more of someone who has never contributed to Fedora before and has no idea what how to navigate or look around to find more information on teams / sub-projects in Fedora.
This is my interpretation, anyways. :)
I really still fail to understand why we need two onboarding sites. Can we please improve whatcanidoforfedora? Or drop it for something new?
We have a serious web site proliferation problem.
~m ----- Original Message ----- From: Justin W. Flory jflory7@gmail.com To: commops@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 01:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [commops] Re: Asking for feedback - what questions should we ask? whatcanidoforfedora.org
On 09/15/2016 09:33 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote:
On 08/30/2016 06:58 PM, Ankur Sinha wrote:
- I feel the questions/suggestions are now a bit too specific. I ended
up on "anaconda" in a test run, and in "docs beats" in another. I really don't expect a newbie to take either one of these up - they don't know anything about the community, neither the anaconda team, nor the docs team. Can we expect them to become part of the community by undertaking such specific, complicated tasks?
I think those are both fine teams to start out with and both have decent onboarding processes. So I'm not sure what the problem is.
~m
I think what Ankur was trying to portray was that these might be tasks easy for someone with some technical knowledge to try picking up or if a person has experience working in other open source projects. If a person is a new contributor to open source or unfamiliar with the community structure of Fedora. While the on-boarding processes for each area are well-defined, I believe what Ankur was hoping to accomplish was something that introduces the broader Fedora community to a newcomer and gets them familiar with the Fedora ecosystem.
I also think it is worth stressing that having WCIDFF point to some more advanced projects or big topics is a good idea for existing contributors looking for new areas to contribute or outsiders coming in with plenty of experience or having contributed to other projects. I think WCIDFF assumes a broad definition of what a "newcomer" is, while this site assumes a newcomer is more of someone who has never contributed to Fedora before and has no idea what how to navigate or look around to find more information on teams / sub-projects in Fedora.
This is my interpretation, anyways. :)
On Fri, 2016-09-16 at 01:20 -0400, Justin W. Flory wrote:
This is my interpretation, anyways. :)
Couldn't have said it better myself :)
Hey guys!
To what Justin said: *> I think what Ankur was trying to portray was that these might be tasks easy for someone with some technical knowledge to try picking up or if a person has experience working in other open source projects. If a person is a new contributor to open source or unfamiliar with the community structure of Fedora. While the on-boarding processes for each area are well-defined, I believe what Ankur was hoping to accomplish was something that introduces the broader Fedora community to a newcomer and gets them familiar with the Fedora ecosystem.*
I think that this is exactly what I, as a contributor-newbie, would like to see.
I went straight into what I know I could do and read the detailed pages about that, which is fedoraproject.org/wiki/CommOps and wherever that branched out. Then I was quietly spying on the Tuesday-meeting haha... and went through pagure, got an idea what's going on and i'm putting together some questions now.
Anyway on topic, the whatcanidoforfedora.org is good, but I am indeed missing a big-picture kind of introduction. What are different teams about, etc...
-- ps: I'll say hi the next Tuesday =) (irc Rhea)
Best regards, Radka
On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Ankur Sinha sanjay.ankur@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, 2016-09-16 at 01:20 -0400, Justin W. Flory wrote:
This is my interpretation, anyways. :)
Couldn't have said it better myself :)
Thanks, Regards, Ankur Sinha "FranciscoD"
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha
Fedora Community Operations (CommOps) mailing list -- commops@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to commops-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org
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On Sat, 2016-09-17 at 04:37 +0200, Radka Janekova wrote:
Anyway on topic, the whatcanidoforfedora.org is good, but I am indeed missing a big-picture kind of introduction. What are different teams about, etc...
Ah! Awesome! Just the person I am looking for :D
What do you think of something like this, Radka? Does it help? https://ankursinha.fedorapeople.org/join-v2/ - -- Thanks, Regards, Ankur Sinha "FranciscoD"
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha
Hey,
*> What do you think of something like this, Radka? Does it help? https://ankursinha.fedorapeople.org/join-v2/ https://ankursinha.fedorapeople.org/join-v2/*
Visually or the content? The font is way too big on everything there, makes it kinda hard to read, and it may be worth checking how does it look like for colorblind people with those colours... Content is good, does give an overview for other roles, etc...
Both sites are good for different reasons, the question is, how to unify them?
Best regards, Radka
On Sat, Sep 17, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Ankur Sinha sanjay.ankur@gmail.com wrote:
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On Sat, 2016-09-17 at 04:37 +0200, Radka Janekova wrote:
Anyway on topic, the whatcanidoforfedora.org is good, but I am indeed missing a big-picture kind of introduction. What are different teams about, etc...
Ah! Awesome! Just the person I am looking for :D
What do you think of something like this, Radka? Does it help? https://ankursinha.fedorapeople.org/join-v2/
Thanks, Regards, Ankur Sinha "FranciscoD"
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2
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On Sat, 2016-09-17 at 16:51 +0200, Radka Janekova wrote:
Hey,
What do you think of something like this, Radka? Does it help? htt
ps://ankursinha.fedorapeople.org/join-v2/
Visually or the content?
More content and scope wise.
The font is way too big on everything there, makes it kinda hard to read, and it may be worth checking how does it look like for colorblind people with those colours...
Yea, the design/fonts etc. are pretty much vanilla bootstrap + the Fedora colour palette. It'll all go under review if we decide to take this to production. I expect the design to change too - this is something I hacked up to demonstrate how we should have a user friendly web space aimed at potential contributors.
Content is good, does give an overview for other roles, etc...
Ah, great!
Both sites are good for different reasons, the question is, how to unify them?
jflory and I had discussed this before I'd hacked up the join.fp.o prototype. Here's what I think:
wcidff is built using asknot-ng, which is meant to be "as configurable as possible". It takes a "questions" file and basically parses it to static html while building a question/answer graph kind of thing for navigation. It isn't meant to be an "overview" type site at all. The virtue of asknot-ng is the simplicity of deployment - set up questions in order, tweak css, run script, deploy - "extending" it to generate a web app that has more data and a more complex structure (of the type the join prototype has) may not be the easiest thing to do (for me - and I'm no web developer).
It doesn't seem to me that wcidff was developed as a one stop onboarding solution anyway - it was developed as a more configurable version of wcidfm which says, "This project is a place for contributors to start looking for new projects to work on. This will guide you in the right direction depending on your preferred development language.", and it does just that - help folks find tasks - it doesn't claim nor try to give an overview of mozilla, and neither does wcidff.
It's also worth noting that in spite of having wcidfm, mozilla still has a complete "contribute" section on it's main website to help contributors get started. Fedora lacks such a resource at the moment.
Worth a look: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/contribute/
So, we could get rid of join.fp.o entirely (as in redirect it to getfedora.org) and extend getfedora.org to include an overview section - - in the style mozilla does it:
https://www.mozilla.org/en-GB/
Currently, getfedora serves to help people find the right Fedora edition and download it, and little else. It has a "Join" link in the *footer* which takes you to join.fp.o (which is an ugly data dumped wiki page.)
Or we could get back fedoraproject.org which would be more general like the mozilla front page, and then link to getfedora.org and so on?
I'm sure there are other options too - we need to pick the right one. - -- Thanks, Regards, Ankur Sinha "FranciscoD"
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha
On 09/17/2016 12:29 PM, Ankur Sinha wrote:
So, we could get rid of join.fp.o entirely (as in redirect it to getfedora.org) and extend getfedora.org to include an overview section
- in the style mozilla does it:
https://www.mozilla.org/en-GB/
Currently, getfedora serves to help people find the right Fedora edition and download it, and little else. It has a "Join" link in the *footer* which takes you to join.fp.o (which is an ugly data dumped wiki page.)
Or we could get back fedoraproject.org which would be more general like the mozilla front page, and then link to getfedora.org and so on?
I'm sure there are other options too - we need to pick the right one.
Apologies for seemingly being full of stop energy here, but we have a very deliberate plan for the websites and the above quoted option is not going to work.
getfedora.org is meant to be a 'brochure' style site focused specifically on Fedora the OS. It's not meant to make the pitch to contribution at all - was designed specifically to not.
Community resources are meant to be hosted at fedoraproject.org. Furthermore, the onboarding of new contributors is meant to be handled through Fedora hubs. The idea behind Fedora hubs is that the work each team is working on is clear & transparent so you can get a sense of what a team is actually doing and what help they need (see the help widget design https://pagure.io/fedora-hubs/issue/98 ) to make the onboarding process easier. This is something we've talked about and planned for 2 years to overhaul the joining process, see this for a start:
http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2015/03/25/summary-of-enabling-new-contributors-br...
I would really hate to see all of this careful consideration and planning and development effort being disregarded!
So I think what might make the most sense is to build this as a Fedora Hubs widget rather than Yet Another Website.
Is there anything I can do to help you understand Fedora Hubs better / understand how such a feature would integrate with it / get involved with the hubs team?
~m
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On Tue, 2016-09-20 at 10:03 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
Apologies for seemingly being full of stop energy here, but we have a very deliberate plan for the websites and the above quoted option is not going to work.
Apologies for being so late with my reply. I didn't want to rush into a reply. The new university term started last week and we're up to our eye brows with work here.
getfedora.org is meant to be a 'brochure' style site focused specifically on Fedora the OS. It's not meant to make the pitch to contribution at all - was designed specifically to not.
That certainly is something we agree on :)
Community resources are meant to be hosted at fedoraproject.org.
but fedoraproject.org, the URL redirects to getfedora.org which, as you've said above, is only meant to highlight the products. So there's really no direct link from fedoraproject.org to a majority of other community resources - not the wiki or the teams or roles on join.fp.o, not apps.fedoraproject.org so one can get an overview of the infra etc. And, yes, this is by design, which is perfectly OK.
Furthermore, the onboarding of new contributors is meant to be handled through Fedora hubs. The idea behind Fedora hubs is that the work each team is working on is clear & transparent so you can get a sense of what a team is actually doing and what help they need (see the help widget design https://pagure.io/fedora-hubs/issue/98%C2%A0)
Sure. As the screenshot in the same ticket (https://pagure.io/fedora-hu bs/issue/raw/files/9998995815383a6f392ed567f0fe26966e76236030c1f5b510d7 9eaf20391d34-HelpWidgetFinal.png) shows, the help widget will list specific tasks that the team needs help with. Great.
to make the onboarding process easier.
This is something we've talked about and planned for 2 years to overhaul the joining process, see this for a start:
http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2015/03/25/summary-of-enabling-new- contributors-brainstorm-session/
<snip>
So I think what might make the most sense is to build this as a Fedora Hubs widget rather than Yet Another Website.
Is there anything I can do to help you understand Fedora Hubs better / understand how such a feature would integrate with it / get involved with the hubs team?
I've read your post multiple times and I more than chuffed with the design of the hubs. I'm even more chuffed about fedora-join possibly being used as a welcome wagon since that's the main goal of the SIG anyway.
But, all this work is aimed at someone who has already decided that they want to contribute to Fedora. "The Understanding chain", for example, starts at: 'Pretend you're a new contributor to Fedora. "I want to join and contribute. I have no idea where to start."' For this scenario, the help widget and the cookies and everything else work really well
BUT
what I'm saying is that we should start a step or two before this instead: "I'm looking at the Fedora website - do I want to contribute to Fedora?". So, if one plays the same game but from this starting point, looking at getfedora.org, you go:
- - OK, so they have three products. Nice. - - What is the community about? Hrm.. making these three products. But then, how is it different from Ubuntu? That's a Linux distro too, right? And I hear Suse is quite nice too.
We provide little info other than our three products to distinguish ourselves from other distributions. Yes, of course our products distinguish us and they're extremely marketable, but more importantly, it is our very particular stance on Free software that really distinguishes us. It is also the only thing that does not change between releases, and between marketing paradigms.
So we're not really discussing the same issue when we each use the term "onboarding". I'm looking for something that gives a person a general overview of all of Fedora: - - why Fedora exists in the first place - - how our work supports the Free software movement and why we have something called a list of "forbidden items" - - what, broadly speaking, are the kind of tasks/tools and skills that go into making a release - - how so many different teams/SIGs function together
and then armed with this information, we help them find the specific resource - getfedora/hubs/planet/whatever. Surely, the chances of someone that is now better aware of the project, community, mission statement, products, roles, teams, signing up to contribute are higher than someone who knows nothing about the project.
I keep looking at mozilla's homepage: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/?v=a
The first thing you see is
"Internet for people, not profit.
Hi. We're Mozilla, the proudly non profit champions of the Internet, helping to keep it healthy, open an accessible to all."
Now, that establishes a unique identity and speaks to a newbie - it puts the goal of the project and the ideal they're striving towards first. Then you scroll down and they tell you about Firefox and Rust and Servo and all that which are means to this ideal (not the other way around).
So, if you look at the prototype: https://ankursinha.fedorapeople.org/join-v2/
that's all it tries to do - give an overview of the project. (I still think of it as a redesign of the current join.fp.o page rather than a new website.)
So none of us are trying to disregard any planning or effort, we're just trying to solve a different problem here. - -- Thanks, Regards, Ankur Sinha "FranciscoD"
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha
commops@lists.fedoraproject.org
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Ankur Sinha -
Catalin -
Justin W. Flory -
Máirín Duffy -
Radka Janekova