A few years ago, the Fedora Council updated the Fedora mission statement. The result is functional but not particularly inspiring. It talks about what we’re doing, but not much about the why. So, this year, we worked on a new vision statement to serve as the proverbial “banner on a hilltop” that we can use to rally our existing community and to attract new contributors.
Our draft is at:
https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/lets-write-a-new-vision-statement-fo...
We need your feedback and help in crafting a final version. Please reply here in this thread to keep discussion in one place. We'd like to come to a decision on this in Februrary.
Hi, Matthew,
I am going to disagree with this change.
First of all, i think this new message looks hostile, especially this part: "The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this vision", which reads as "If you share the vision, you must be in Fedora".
But even it reworded I think the root of this disagreement lies in the perception, what the vision statement supposed to do.
It seems you are trying to make it sound more appealing or exciting. As you see it as a way to invite new people.
But mission statement or vision is different from a marketing talking point. It is not what attracts attention or curiosity, it is what binds us together to do a specific thing.
And I don't see that thing in the proposed mission statement.
It is a hand wavy proclamation that says that Fedora Project's ultimate goal is the World Peace and Prosperity. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely support the goal :) But what makes Fedora to be Fedora is the way how exactly we are trying to help to reach this goal.
And it should be part of our vision to propose this way.
The "How" part can change over time as the Project itself grows and changes, but it should be there. It is what holds us together, and provides the common foundation.
---
Moreover, I have an alternative proposal [1] which I haven't got a lot of feedback yet.
It maybe worded differently, but in short, I'd like to see the "Integrate First" statement added to our core values, somewhere next to the Upstream First thing.
I think the ability to communicate and collaborate (and integrate) is that missing piece that Peace and Prosperity goal struggles with right now. Together with the definition of what the "to integrate" means.
And I prefer to see Fedora's mission not to try and take over the world, but to fill in this gap, based on previous successful experience over many years, but also together with finding new ways, new workflows and even new definitions for it.
Hi Aleksandra,
Thank you for the thoughtful feedback. I'm going to reply to bits and pieces of your comments.
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 5:49 AM Aleksandra Fedorova alpha@bookwar.info wrote:
First of all, i think this new message looks hostile, especially this part: "The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this vision", which reads as "If you share the vision, you must be in Fedora".
I had not considered that interpretation. Our intent was the opposite: we want to be a reference model of sorts. In other words, we expect that there are many other communities out there who will share our vision and do their own parts to make it happen. Our goal is to serve as an example of how to do it "right". If you have suggestions on how to convey that meaning more clearly, they are very welcome.
It seems you are trying to make it sound more appealing or exciting. As you see it as a way to invite new people. But mission statement or vision is different from a marketing talking point. It is not what attracts attention or curiosity, it is what binds us together to do a specific thing. It is a hand wavy proclamation that says that Fedora Project's ultimate goal is the World Peace and Prosperity. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely support the goal :) But what makes Fedora to be Fedora is the way how exactly we are trying to help to reach this goal.
It's important to not conflate mission statements and vision statements. A vision statement should be how we envision the world (hence the name); it's supposed to be vague and hand-wavy. It's purpose is inspirational, not practical. A mission statement defines the scope of what we're going to do to make our vision come true. The vision is broader than the Fedora Project could ever hope to achieve on it's own. We'll do our part (which is what the mission statement describes) and other communities will do theirs.
Moreover, I have an alternative proposal [1] which I haven't got a lot of feedback yet. It maybe worded differently, but in short, I'd like to see the "Integrate First" statement added to our core values, somewhere next to the Upstream First thing.
I don't see that as an alternative proposal but a complimentary proposal. This addresses the mission more than the vision. Part of the reason you haven't had much feedback on this is that we realized we needed to set the vision more explicitly before we can give it the appropriate consideration. Once the vision statement is settled, I'll use my agenda-making powers to push discussion on your proposal. :-)
And I prefer to see Fedora's mission not to try and take over the world, but to fill in this gap, based on previous successful experience over many years, but also together with finding new ways, new workflows and even new definitions for it.
I totally agree. I think I can speak for the rest of the Council members and say they all agree, too. We have a broad vision of the world, but our goal is to focus on a narrow part of the execution.
-- Ben Cotton He / Him / His Fedora Program Manager Red Hat TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
Here is what my thoughts after reading the shared blog post:
"We envision a world where free and open source software is accessible and usable." -- Why envision? If I am not wrong envision is "imagine as a future possibility" IMHO, We are very much in a world where free and open source software is accessible and usable and Fedora is a great example of this.
"The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this vision." -- I feel we are not giving enough importance to Fedora here by quoting it just a reference. This meant to be Fedora's vision statement. So Fedora can't be just a reference here.
NOTE: These are purely my thoughts. I read(very quickly) previous responses and my thoughts may not match to those responses.
Regards, Amita
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 7:50 PM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
Hi Aleksandra,
Thank you for the thoughtful feedback. I'm going to reply to bits and pieces of your comments.
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 5:49 AM Aleksandra Fedorova alpha@bookwar.info wrote:
First of all, i think this new message looks hostile, especially this
part: "The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this vision", which reads as "If you share the vision, you must be in Fedora".
I had not considered that interpretation. Our intent was the opposite: we want to be a reference model of sorts. In other words, we expect that there are many other communities out there who will share our vision and do their own parts to make it happen. Our goal is to serve as an example of how to do it "right". If you have suggestions on how to convey that meaning more clearly, they are very welcome.
It seems you are trying to make it sound more appealing or exciting. As
you see it as a way to invite new people.
But mission statement or vision is different from a marketing talking
point. It is not what attracts attention or curiosity, it is what binds us together to do a specific thing.
It is a hand wavy proclamation that says that Fedora Project's ultimate
goal is the World Peace and Prosperity. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely support the goal :) But what makes Fedora to be Fedora is the way how exactly we are trying to help to reach this goal.
It's important to not conflate mission statements and vision statements. A vision statement should be how we envision the world (hence the name); it's supposed to be vague and hand-wavy. It's purpose is inspirational, not practical. A mission statement defines the scope of what we're going to do to make our vision come true. The vision is broader than the Fedora Project could ever hope to achieve on it's own. We'll do our part (which is what the mission statement describes) and other communities will do theirs.
Moreover, I have an alternative proposal [1] which I haven't got a lot
of feedback yet.
It maybe worded differently, but in short, I'd like to see the
"Integrate First" statement added to our core values, somewhere next to the Upstream First thing.
I don't see that as an alternative proposal but a complimentary proposal. This addresses the mission more than the vision. Part of the reason you haven't had much feedback on this is that we realized we needed to set the vision more explicitly before we can give it the appropriate consideration. Once the vision statement is settled, I'll use my agenda-making powers to push discussion on your proposal. :-)
And I prefer to see Fedora's mission not to try and take over the world,
but to fill in this gap, based on previous successful experience over many years, but also together with finding new ways, new workflows and even new definitions for it.
I totally agree. I think I can speak for the rest of the Council members and say they all agree, too. We have a broad vision of the world, but our goal is to focus on a narrow part of the execution.
-- Ben Cotton He / Him / His Fedora Program Manager Red Hat TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis _______________________________________________ council-discuss mailing list -- council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to council-discuss-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedorapr...
Hi, Ben,
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 3:18 PM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
Hi Aleksandra,
Thank you for the thoughtful feedback. I'm going to reply to bits and pieces of your comments.
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 5:49 AM Aleksandra Fedorova alpha@bookwar.info wrote:
First of all, i think this new message looks hostile, especially this part: "The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this vision", which reads as "If you share the vision, you must be in Fedora".
I had not considered that interpretation. Our intent was the opposite: we want to be a reference model of sorts. In other words, we expect that there are many other communities out there who will share our vision and do their own parts to make it happen. Our goal is to serve as an example of how to do it "right".
Isn't exactly the problem? I don't think we can claim that we are doing it "right" (..unlike others), or will be doing. We don't know what is "right" yet, and we may never achieve that. We make our mistakes, and it is the search which is important.
If you have suggestions on how to convey that meaning more clearly, they are very welcome.
Writing is hard (and disagreeing is much easier), so I don't really have an answer.
I would maybe try to switch from "serve as example" to "serve as a tool, which helps everyone to achieve that goal"
It seems you are trying to make it sound more appealing or exciting. As you see it as a way to invite new people. But mission statement or vision is different from a marketing talking point. It is not what attracts attention or curiosity, it is what binds us together to do a specific thing. It is a hand wavy proclamation that says that Fedora Project's ultimate goal is the World Peace and Prosperity. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely support the goal :) But what makes Fedora to be Fedora is the way how exactly we are trying to help to reach this goal.
It's important to not conflate mission statements and vision statements. A vision statement should be how we envision the world (hence the name); it's supposed to be vague and hand-wavy. It's purpose is inspirational, not practical.
Ok, I get you point on mission vs vision, but then this vision part seems to be weak for me.
The problem is that it hits very close to the Linkedin-level of buzzwordness (yes, i've just invented this term), which more or less triggers the internal adblock rather than excitement.
I mean is it really different from what everyone claims nowadays? Why would I choose to look into this one in a thousand of similar ones? I would generally agree with the statement of being welcoming and such, but isn't it a default?
A mission statement defines the scope of what we're going to do to make our vision come true. The vision is broader than the Fedora Project could ever hope to achieve on it's own. We'll do our part (which is what the mission statement describes) and other communities will do theirs.
Moreover, I have an alternative proposal [1] which I haven't got a lot of feedback yet. It maybe worded differently, but in short, I'd like to see the "Integrate First" statement added to our core values, somewhere next to the Upstream First thing.
I don't see that as an alternative proposal but a complimentary proposal. This addresses the mission more than the vision. Part of the reason you haven't had much feedback on this is that we realized we needed to set the vision more explicitly before we can give it the appropriate consideration. Once the vision statement is settled, I'll use my agenda-making powers to push discussion on your proposal. :-)
Thinking a bit more... how about adding "inclusive, welcoming, and encourage experimentation _in a collaborative way_"?
I'd say I know other communities which would encourage experimentation even further, but what I always valued in Fedora is that we are not just experimenting, we keep bringing the results of those experiments back together.
And I prefer to see Fedora's mission not to try and take over the world, but to fill in this gap, based on previous successful experience over many years, but also together with finding new ways, new workflows and even new definitions for it.
I totally agree. I think I can speak for the rest of the Council members and say they all agree, too. We have a broad vision of the world, but our goal is to focus on a narrow part of the execution.
"We envision a world where free and open source software is accessible and usable."
What kind of long view are you going for - 10, 20, 50 years? In the past 10-15 years we've (the broader floss community) have already made and are making big strides towards this, so I don't think this really is a fresh inspiration. I think it could reach for more, since it's a vision statement.
The other issue with this, an issue with most technological endeavors - it's focused on the tech, not the people. If a piece of software is usable and accessible in the woods, does anybody know or care?
I would suggest a statement here that focuses more on the world we want to be in (that our work will help us create) rather than just narrowly on the tech within it eg
"We envision people around the world enjoying betterment across every area of life touched by technology, driven by free and open source software."
Or something like that. Focus on the ppl and why the software matters though is my main suggestion here, bc software isn't life and isn't the world. The accessibility and usability become a matter of course / an implementation detail bc if you state people are using it and it makes their lives better, it has to be so.
"In this world, software is built by communities that are inclusive, welcoming, and encourage experimentation."
So this hits on the project vs. community issue. The first sentence focused more on the project / software. This sentence, in contrast, focuses on the community. Is this full statement meant primarily to drive the project, or the management of the community, or both?
I also understand the importance of inclusivity, being welcoming etc. but the way it's brought up here it comes across as a chore or a finger wag or a check list. Plus inclusivity, welcoming, etc are a means to an end not the end. You're supposed to talk abt the end in a vision statement, right?
I'm also not sure I agree with it. Is *all* software *only* built by *communities*? What is a community exactly? If it's not a company, I disagree because while I think open communities are great at achieving some things in software there are other things (like support) they're not too good at. You know? And I think the solution is to rephrase in a way that doesnt invite that line of questioning / debate bc that shouldnt be the point.
Maybe smtg like this
"Diverse communities of people will participate in creation of this software, in an immersive culture of experimentation, collaboration, and sincere camaraderie."
"The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this vision."
A reference is smtg you put up on a shelf to look at occasionally or to stand on to reach a jar on a top shelf. :-)
"The Fedora Project aims to inspire all who share this vision."
Hope this is helpful
~m
On January 14, 2020 9:24:14 AM EST, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
A few years ago, the Fedora Council updated the Fedora mission statement. The result is functional but not particularly inspiring. It talks about what we’re doing, but not much about the why. So, this year, we worked on a new vision statement to serve as the proverbial “banner on a hilltop” that we can use to rally our existing community and to attract new contributors.
Our draft is at:
https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/lets-write-a-new-vision-statement-fo...
We need your feedback and help in crafting a final version. Please reply here in this thread to keep discussion in one place. We'd like to come to a decision on this in Februrary.
-- Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader _______________________________________________ council-discuss mailing list -- council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to council-discuss-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedorapr...
On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 10:24 PM Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
A few years ago, the Fedora Council updated the Fedora mission statement. The result is functional but not particularly inspiring. It talks about what we’re doing, but not much about the why. So, this year, we worked on a new vision statement to serve as the proverbial “banner on a hilltop” that we can use to rally our existing community and to attract new contributors.
Our draft is at:
https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/lets-write-a-new-vision-statement-fo...
I think I was one of whom strongly disagree with the current one simply because 'that enables software developers and community members' make me feel contributors is less important than technology.
Reading the new one, I think this draft sounds much more inspiring to me. While I have a small suggestion.
"The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this vision." I think it might be better if we say "The Fedora Project can be ...". By changing 'will' to 'can' I want to make this sentence feel more about a possibility than a future goal.
Just my cents.
We need your feedback and help in crafting a final version. Please reply here in this thread to keep discussion in one place. We'd like to come to a decision on this in Februrary.
-- Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader
Hi,
On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 09:24:14AM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
A few years ago, the Fedora Council updated the Fedora mission statement. The result is functional but not particularly inspiring. It talks about what we’re doing, but not much about the why. So, this year, we worked on a new vision statement to serve as the proverbial “banner on a hilltop” that we can use to rally our existing community and to attract new contributors.
Our draft is at:
https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/lets-write-a-new-vision-statement-fo...
We need your feedback and help in crafting a final version. Please reply here in this thread to keep discussion in one place. We'd like to come to a decision on this in Februrary.
there was already great feedback in this thread. Here is my proposal based on the original vision, the feedback and my thoughts:
"Free and open-source software makes live better. We envision everyone benefiting from the free and open-source software they need to have the best life. The Fedora Project provides a safe space for inclusive, welcoming and open-minded communities to build and distribute this software."
Some annotations: - "open-minded" is the adjective that should mean that we encourage experimentation. - This vision also focuses on actual benefits for people and not on the software just for its own sake - In the original proposal, "will be" in the last sentence implied to me that Fedora does not follow this vision but only in a distant future when it will be a reference.
What are your thoughts?
Kind regards Till
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 10:48:55AM -0000, Aleksandra Fedorova wrote:
First of all, i think this new message looks hostile, especially this part: "The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this vision", which reads as "If you share the vision, you must be in Fedora".
Oh! Like Ben, I also hadn't considered this interpretation. To parse it carefully, note "a reference" not "_the_ reference". But I also don't want to have to tell people "no, we don't mean to be hostile -- you need to read more carefully". Obviosuly that's not right. :)
But even it reworded I think the root of this disagreement lies in the perception, what the vision statement supposed to do.
It seems you are trying to make it sound more appealing or exciting. As you see it as a way to invite new people.
Yes, that's true.
But mission statement or vision is different from a marketing talking point. It is not what attracts attention or curiosity, it is what binds us together to do a specific thing.
Well, yes, but the vision statement *should* be an aspirational "binding".
And I don't see that thing in the proposed mission statement.
It is a hand wavy proclamation that says that Fedora Project's ultimate goal is the World Peace and Prosperity. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely support the goal :) But what makes Fedora to be Fedora is the way how exactly we are trying to help to reach this goal.
Well, remember, the vision statement does not stand alone. It goes with the values (our foundations) and the mission statement, as well as our strategic plan and so on down. The Vision statement *isn't* supposed to say how we are reaching our goal -- it *is* the statement of our desired result.
During the council meeting I gave some examples, including one I found when trying to look for the GNOME project mission and vision and then landed on a page selling garden gnomes. Their mission and vision (extracted from a little bit over-wordiness) are:
Our Mission is to create and market garden gnomes that will bring a bit of humor and peace to people’s lives and will inspire deeper political, environmental, and spiritual awareness and reflection.
Our Vision for the future is a world where humans, animals, garden gnomes, and other yard art live together in peace and harmony.
So, yes, World Peace and Prosperity might be in there a little bit. :)
Moreover, I have an alternative proposal [1] which I haven't got a lot of feedback yet.
It maybe worded differently, but in short, I'd like to see the "Integrate First" statement added to our core values, somewhere next to the Upstream First thing.
I'm not convinced that I agree with this as a basic tenant, really. But that's kind of a separate issue.... the vision really _should_ be about change in the world, not about the specifics of what we're building.
And I prefer to see Fedora's mission not to try and take over the world, but to fill in this gap, based on previous successful experience over many years, but also together with finding new ways, new workflows and even new definitions for it.
We also wanted the statement to not be "world domination" — I agree with you on that. Actually, I don't think that what you're saying here is _that_ far off from what we ended up with!
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 08:35:40PM +0530, Amita Sharma wrote:
Here is what my thoughts after reading the shared blog post:
"We envision a world where free and open source software is accessible and usable." -- Why envision? If I am not wrong envision is "imagine as a future possibility" IMHO, We are very much in a world where free and open source software is accessible and usable and Fedora is a great example of this.
I think Fedora does provide a great example, but I also think we're obviously not far enough. I'd love to hear alternate wordings.
"The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this vision." -- I feel we are not giving enough importance to Fedora here by quoting it just a reference. This meant to be Fedora's vision statement. So Fedora can't be just a reference here.
This is kind of funny because it's basically the opposite objection to Aleksandra's. But either way I definitely hear that we need to work on how we're saying this. :)
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 01:11:45PM -0500, Máirín Duffy wrote:
"We envision a world where free and open source software is accessible and usable."
What kind of long view are you going for - 10, 20, 50 years? In the past 10-15 years we've (the broader floss community) have already made and are making big strides towards this, so I don't think this really is a fresh inspiration. I think it could reach for more, since it's a vision statement.
Let's say ten years. And, okay, yes, let's reach for more!
The other issue with this, an issue with most technological endeavors - it's focused on the tech, not the people. If a piece of software is usable and accessible in the woods, does anybody know or care?
I think that's partly what we meant with "accessible" -- if it's in the proverbial woods where no one sees it, it is not accessible.
I would suggest a statement here that focuses more on the world we want to be in (that our work will help us create) rather than just narrowly on the tech within it eg
"We envision people around the world enjoying betterment across every area of life touched by technology, driven by free and open source software."
Hmmmm -- doesn't that go *more* to talking about the tech? And, also, I'm worried that it goes too far outside the scope of what we're actually able to impact. "Every area of life touched by technology" is... a lot.
Or something like that. Focus on the ppl and why the software matters though is my main suggestion here, bc software isn't life and isn't the world. The accessibility and usability become a matter of course / an implementation detail bc if you state people are using it and it makes their lives better, it has to be so.
Yeah, this I understand. Thanks. :)
"In this world, software is built by communities that are inclusive, welcoming, and encourage experimentation."
So this hits on the project vs. community issue. The first sentence focused more on the project / software. This sentence, in contrast, focuses on the community. Is this full statement meant primarily to drive the project, or the management of the community, or both?
[...]
I also understand the importance of inclusivity, being welcoming etc. but the way it's brought up here it comes across as a chore or a finger wag or a check list. Plus inclusivity, welcoming, etc are a means to an end not the end. You're supposed to talk abt the end in a vision statement, right?
Oh! To me, this _is_ about the end. I want a world of software that's built by healthy collaborative communities — to me, that's a goal in itself. ("Friends" is as fundamental a value as "Features" or "Freedom".)
I'm also not sure I agree with it. Is *all* software *only* built by *communities*? What is a community exactly? If it's not a company, I disagree because while I think open communities are great at achieving some things in software there are other things (like support) they're not too good at. You know? And I think the solution is to rephrase in a way that doesnt invite that line of questioning / debate bc that shouldnt be the point.
I think our employer shows that this doesn't have to be a dichotomy. Software can be built by communities and companies can be participants in those communities. There are _some_ aspects of support where a company standing behind a product is vital, but there are other areas of support where an active, engaged community of helpers is objectively better.
"Diverse communities of people will participate in creation of this software, in an immersive culture of experimentation, collaboration, and sincere camaraderie."
I like some of where you're going with this, I'd like something stronger than "participate".
"The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this vision."
A reference is smtg you put up on a shelf to look at occasionally or to stand on to reach a jar on a top shelf. :-)
"The Fedora Project aims to inspire all who share this vision."
Yes, I like it!
Hope this is helpful
Yes, very much!
On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 02:11:22PM +0800, Zamir Sun wrote:
I think I was one of whom strongly disagree with the current one simply because 'that enables software developers and community members' make me feel contributors is less important than technology.
To be clear, we're not looking at replacing the mission. We want to add this vision statement to work together with that statement.
On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 04:48:40PM +0100, Till Maas wrote:
"Free and open-source software makes live better. We envision everyone benefiting from the free and open-source software they need to have the best life. The Fedora Project provides a safe space for inclusive, welcoming and open-minded communities to build and distribute this software."
Some annotations:
- "open-minded" is the adjective that should mean that we encourage experimentation.
- This vision also focuses on actual benefits for people and not on the software just for its own sake
- In the original proposal, "will be" in the last sentence implied to me that Fedora does not follow this vision but only in a distant future when it will be a reference.
What are your thoughts?
I like the part about making lives better. Providing a space is an interesting idea I need to think about more. :)
On January 16, 2020 4:37:34 PM EST, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 01:11:45PM -0500, Máirín Duffy wrote:
I would suggest a statement here that focuses more on the world we
want to
be in (that our work will help us create) rather than just narrowly
on the
tech within it eg
"We envision people around the world enjoying betterment across every
area
of life touched by technology, driven by free and open source
software."
Hmmmm -- doesn't that go *more* to talking about the tech?
It doesn't - the technology is relegated to a means / a touch whereas the main subject is people's lives improving. (And the unsaid thing which we've probably said elsewhere is how open source is uniquely positioned to do that, privacy, innovation, standards / compat, better tech, etc.)
And, also, I'm worried that it goes too far outside the scope of what we're actually able to impact. "Every area of life touched by technology" is... a lot.
A vision statement should not be a statement of scope - that's the mission statement. The vision statement is a statement of direction and purpose. *We* aren't the only actors so making a world the way we envision it isn't all on us. It's the dream that drives us and helps us figure out which way to go esp. if we hit a turn.
"In this world, software is built by communities that are inclusive, welcoming, and encourage experimentation."
So this hits on the project vs. community issue. The first sentence focused more on the project / software. This sentence, in contrast, focuses on the community. Is this full statement meant primarily to
drive
the project, or the management of the community, or both?
[...]
I also understand the importance of inclusivity, being welcoming etc.
but
the way it's brought up here it comes across as a chore or a finger
wag or
a check list. Plus inclusivity, welcoming, etc are a means to an end
not
the end. You're supposed to talk abt the end in a vision statement,
right?
Oh! To me, this _is_ about the end. I want a world of software that's built by healthy collaborative communities — to me, that's a goal in itself. ("Friends" is as fundamental a value as "Features" or "Freedom".)
But being welcoming and inclusive isnt the end if the community still isnt diverse (and I would argue that is where we are now.... making strides towards a diverse community ansolutely but not where I think we'd see ourselves in an ideal vision right?) I'd argue diversity is the end, and welcoming / inclusivity / etc is how you get there. Doesn't mean they get tossed out the window - same as w accessibility and usability - they're required as a matter of course for the end so you don't need to explicitly call them out.
I'm also not sure I agree with it. Is *all* software *only* built by *communities*? What is a community exactly? If it's not a company, I disagree because while I think open communities are great at
achieving
some things in software there are other things (like support) they're
not
too good at. You know? And I think the solution is to rephrase in a
way
that doesnt invite that line of questioning / debate bc that shouldnt
be
the point.
I think our employer shows that this doesn't have to be a dichotomy. Software can be built by communities and companies can be participants in those communities. There are _some_ aspects of support where a company standing behind a product is vital, but there are other areas of support where an active, engaged community of helpers is objectively better.
Right but my point wasnt whether or not a company can be part of a community - my point was community is a term that invites that line of argument / spiral - you even took the bait lol when I was just bringing it up in meta. It's probably better to just sidestep it by rephrasing in a way where such esoteric questions don't come up - bc those q's focus on the implementation and the how, not the what we want to achieve...
And the vision of the community shouldnt be to be a community...
"Diverse communities of people will participate in creation of this software, in an immersive culture of experimentation, collaboration,
and
sincere camaraderie."
I like some of where you're going with this, I'd like something stronger than "participate".
s/participate in the creation of this software/create this software ??
Thanks for going thru everyone's feedback and taking the time to respond. It's more fulfilling to take the time to review & reflect & and share when it's clear it's being read and considered. :-)
~m
Thanks for sharing this text and asking for a community discussion about it. This is the kind of things that let some room for people contributing in non technical fields of Fedora (yes, here I speak about localization).
Le 2020-01-16 22:40, Matthew Miller a écrit :
I like the part about making lives better. Providing a space is an interesting idea I need to think about more. :)
It goes in the right direction to talk about the people and the impact of free/libre software in life. What Mairin and Till wrote is interesting, but we may go beyond self-interest of the user to go the the global interest.
Free/libre and open source software is a way to emancipate not only one person for it's own interest, but also the society in which the person is living in. We provide tools to protect and tools to be used as weapons in many fights.
We can protect: * privacy, because we don't sell anything and don't collect anything * the balance between software user and software builders/seller * culture, by allowing usage of local languages existence in the digital world * ...
We provide weapons: * for the many fights protect various interests, * we empower people with tools and knowledge, * ...
I'd love to: * see the word "libre" written next to "Free", * see the text talking about "people emancipation" (focused on what is the ability of the person to interact with the rest of the world) instead of "life improvement" (focused on the person's self interest).
Jean-Baptiste
My minor comment is that I appreciate very much the focus on software freedom. IMO, this is becoming more important as time goes on.
"As others, kernel 5.4.8 (and 5.8.10 and 5.5rc6) broke my wifi ( https://www.reddit.com/r/Fedora/comments/enj8y1/newest_kernel_breaks_wifi_ho... 1 ) and sound ( also NVIDIA drivers in the kernel 5.3 were broken) ; So I had a new clean install of Fedora 31." -- https://ask.fedoraproject.org/t/install-nvidia-drivers-without-updating-the-...
How about to, nonetheless, add a linux-lts package in Fedora, to Fedora not being behind some other bleeding edge distros anymore in the matters of recovery from something going wrong?
Whoops. I wanted to reply to this list but I think I did it wrong. I seem to have created a new thread. I meant for my comments to appear on this list. The title of my post is "My two cents worth", so please read it in the context of this thread. Thanks.
On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 01:18:10PM -0000, Ian Harris wrote:
Whoops. I wanted to reply to this list but I think I did it wrong. I seem to have created a new thread. I meant for my comments to appear on this list. The title of my post is "My two cents worth", so please read it in the context of this thread.
Thanks Ian! I'll make sure to read it there.
I'm just getting back to turning my attention to this after several weeks of conference travel. :)
Hi everyone,
Thanks for the great discussion about this. The Council took your feedback into consideration and came up with a new draft:
The Fedora Project envisions a world where everyone benefits from free
and open source software built by inclusive, welcoming, and open-minded communities.
You can read more about it on Matthew's CommBlog post[1] and continue discussing in this thread.
[1] https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/lets-keep-writing-a-new-vision-state...
Hi everyone. We can now see! The Council unanimously approved[1] the second draft of the vision statement:
The Fedora Project envisions a world where everyone benefits from free and open source software built by inclusive, welcoming, and open-minded communities.
[1] https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/290
Hi there!
Is this change official now? Can we spread the voice on social networks and local Fedora events?
Thanks!
El jue., 19 de marzo de 2020 08:17, Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com escribió:
Hi everyone. We can now see! The Council unanimously approved[1] the second draft of the vision statement:
The Fedora Project envisions a world where everyone benefits from free
and open source software built by inclusive, welcoming, and open-minded communities.
[1] https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/290
-- Ben Cotton He / Him / His Senior Program Manager, Fedora & CentOS Stream Red Hat TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis _______________________________________________ council-discuss mailing list -- council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to council-discuss-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedorapr...
On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 10:41 AM Jhoanir Torres jhoanir@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hi there!
Is this change official now? Can we spread the voice on social networks and local Fedora events?
Yes, it's official. Spread the word far and wide. I'm working on adding it to the project docs on the website.
council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org
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Aleksandra Fedorova -
Amita Sharma -
Ben Cotton -
Ian Harris -
Jean-Baptiste Holcroft -
Jhoanir Torres -
Matthew Miller -
Máirín Duffy -
Till Maas -
Tim Cuthbertson -
Vitaliy Shatrov -
Zamir Sun