A new vision statement for Fedora

[Matthew Miller]

A few years ago, the Fedora Council updated the Fedora mission statement.
The result is functional but not particularly inspiring. It talks about what
we’re doing, but not much about the why. So, this year, we worked on a new
vision statement to serve as the proverbial “banner on a hilltop” that we
can use to rally our existing community and to attract new contributors.

Our draft is at:

https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/lets-write-a-new-vision-statement...

We need your feedback and help in crafting a final version. Please reply
here in this thread to keep discussion in one place. We'd like to come to a
decision on this in Februrary.

-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Aleksandra Fedorova]

Hi, Matthew,

I am going to disagree with this change.

First of all, i think this new message looks hostile, especially this part: "The
Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this vision", which reads
as "If you share the vision, you must be in Fedora".

But even it reworded I think the root of this disagreement lies in the perception, what
the vision statement supposed to do.

It seems you are trying to make it sound more appealing or exciting. As you see it as a
way to invite new people.

But mission statement or vision is different from a marketing talking point. It is not
what attracts attention or curiosity, it is what binds us together to do a specific
thing.

And I don't see that thing in the proposed mission statement.

It is a hand wavy proclamation that says that Fedora Project's ultimate goal is the
World Peace and Prosperity. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely support the goal :) But
what makes Fedora to be Fedora is the way how exactly we are trying to help to reach this
goal.

And it should be part of our vision to propose this way. 

The "How" part can change over time as the Project itself grows and changes, but
it should be there. It is what holds us together, and provides the common foundation.

---

Moreover, I have an alternative proposal [1] which I haven't got a lot of feedback
yet.

It maybe worded differently, but in short, I'd like to see the "Integrate
First" statement added to our core values, somewhere next to the Upstream First
thing.

I think the ability to communicate and collaborate (and integrate) is that missing piece
that Peace and Prosperity goal struggles with right now. Together with the definition of
what the "to integrate" means.

And I prefer to see Fedora's mission not to try and take over the world, but to fill
in this gap, based on previous successful experience over many years, but also together
with finding new ways, new workflows and even new definitions for it.

[1] https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/280

[Ben Cotton]

Hi Aleksandra,

Thank you for the thoughtful feedback. I'm going to reply to bits and
pieces of your comments.

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 5:49 AM Aleksandra Fedorova <alpha(a)bookwar.info&gt; wrote:
>  First of all, i think this new message looks hostile, especially this part: "The
> Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this vision", which reads
> as "If you share the vision, you must be in Fedora".
>  
I had not considered that interpretation. Our intent was the opposite:
we want to be a reference model of sorts. In other words, we expect
that there are many other communities out there who will share our
vision and do their own parts to make it happen. Our goal is to serve
as an example of how to do it "right". If you have suggestions on how
to convey that meaning more clearly, they are very welcome.

>  It seems you are trying to make it sound more appealing or exciting.
> As you see it as a way to invite new people.
>  But mission statement or vision is different from a marketing talking point. It is not
> what attracts attention or curiosity, it is what binds us together to do a specific
> thing.
>  It is a hand wavy proclamation that says that Fedora Project's ultimate goal is the
> World Peace and Prosperity. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely support the goal :) But
> what makes Fedora to be Fedora is the way how exactly we are trying to help to reach this
> goal.
>  
It's important to not conflate mission statements and vision
statements. A vision statement should be how we envision the world
(hence the name); it's supposed to be vague and hand-wavy. It's
purpose is inspirational, not practical. A mission statement defines
the scope of what we're going to do to make our vision come true. The
vision is broader than the Fedora Project could ever hope to achieve
on it's own. We'll do our part (which is what the mission statement
describes) and other communities will do theirs.

>  Moreover, I have an alternative proposal [1] which I haven't got
> a lot of feedback yet.
>  It maybe worded differently, but in short, I'd like to see the "Integrate
> First" statement added to our core values, somewhere next to the Upstream First
> thing.
>  
I don't see that as an alternative proposal but a complimentary
proposal. This addresses the mission more than the vision. Part of the
reason you haven't had much feedback on this is that we realized we
needed to set the vision more explicitly before we can give it the
appropriate consideration. Once the vision statement is settled, I'll
use my agenda-making powers to push discussion on your proposal. :-)

>  And I prefer to see Fedora's mission not to try and take over the
> world, but to fill in this gap, based on previous successful experience over many years,
> but also together with finding new ways, new workflows and even new definitions for it.
>  
I totally agree. I think I can speak for the rest of the Council
members and say they all agree, too. We have a broad vision of the
world, but our goal is to focus on a narrow part of the execution.

--
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Fedora Program Manager
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis

[Amita Sharma]

Here is what my thoughts after reading the shared blog post:

"We envision a world where free and open source software is accessible and
usable."
-- Why envision? If I am not wrong envision is "imagine as a future
possibility"
IMHO, We are very much in a world where free and open source software is
accessible and usable and Fedora is a great example of this.

"The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this
vision."
-- I feel we are not giving enough importance to Fedora here by quoting it
just a reference.
This meant to be Fedora's vision statement. So Fedora can't be just a
reference here.

NOTE: These are purely my thoughts. I read(very quickly) previous responses
and my thoughts may not match to those responses.

Regards,
Amita

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 7:50 PM Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  Hi Aleksandra,
>
>  Thank you for the thoughtful feedback. I'm going to reply to bits and
>  pieces of your comments.
>
>  On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 5:49 AM Aleksandra Fedorova <alpha(a)bookwar.info&gt;
>  wrote:
>  >
>  > First of all, i think this new message looks hostile, especially this
>  part: "The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this
>  vision", which reads as "If you share the vision, you must be in Fedora".
>  >
>  I had not considered that interpretation. Our intent was the opposite:
>  we want to be a reference model of sorts. In other words, we expect
>  that there are many other communities out there who will share our
>  vision and do their own parts to make it happen. Our goal is to serve
>  as an example of how to do it "right". If you have suggestions on how
>  to convey that meaning more clearly, they are very welcome.
>
>  > It seems you are trying to make it sound more appealing or exciting. As
>  you see it as a way to invite new people.
>  > But mission statement or vision is different from a marketing talking
>  point. It is not what attracts attention or curiosity, it is what binds us
>  together to do a specific thing.
>  > It is a hand wavy proclamation that says that Fedora Project's ultimate
>  goal is the World Peace and Prosperity. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely
>  support the goal :) But what makes Fedora to be Fedora is the way how
>  exactly we are trying to help to reach this goal.
>  >
>  It's important to not conflate mission statements and vision
>  statements. A vision statement should be how we envision the world
>  (hence the name); it's supposed to be vague and hand-wavy. It's
>  purpose is inspirational, not practical. A mission statement defines
>  the scope of what we're going to do to make our vision come true. The
>  vision is broader than the Fedora Project could ever hope to achieve
>  on it's own. We'll do our part (which is what the mission statement
>  describes) and other communities will do theirs.
>
>  > Moreover, I have an alternative proposal [1] which I haven't got a lot
>  of feedback yet.
>  > It maybe worded differently, but in short, I'd like to see the
>  "Integrate First" statement added to our core values, somewhere next to the
>  Upstream First thing.
>  >
>  I don't see that as an alternative proposal but a complimentary
>  proposal. This addresses the mission more than the vision. Part of the
>  reason you haven't had much feedback on this is that we realized we
>  needed to set the vision more explicitly before we can give it the
>  appropriate consideration. Once the vision statement is settled, I'll
>  use my agenda-making powers to push discussion on your proposal. :-)
>
>  > And I prefer to see Fedora's mission not to try and take over the world,
>  but to fill in this gap, based on previous successful experience over many
>  years, but also together with finding new ways, new workflows and even new
>  definitions for it.
>  >
>  I totally agree. I think I can speak for the rest of the Council
>  members and say they all agree, too. We have a broad vision of the
>  world, but our goal is to focus on a narrow part of the execution.
>
>  --
>  Ben Cotton
>  He / Him / His
>  Fedora Program Manager
>  Red Hat
>  TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
>  _______________________________________________
>  council-discuss mailing list -- council-discuss(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to
>  council-discuss-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]...
>

[Aleksandra Fedorova]

Hi, Ben,

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 3:18 PM Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  Hi Aleksandra,
>
>  Thank you for the thoughtful feedback. I'm going to reply to bits and
>  pieces of your comments.
>
>  On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 5:49 AM Aleksandra Fedorova <alpha(a)bookwar.info&gt; wrote:
>  >
>  > First of all, i think this new message looks hostile, especially this part:
> "The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this vision",
> which reads as "If you share the vision, you must be in Fedora".
>  >
>  I had not considered that interpretation. Our intent was the opposite:
>  we want to be a reference model of sorts. In other words, we expect
>  that there are many other communities out there who will share our
>  vision and do their own parts to make it happen. Our goal is to serve
>  as an example of how to do it "right". 
Isn't exactly the problem? I don't think we can claim that we are
doing it "right" (..unlike others), or will be doing. We don't know
what is "right" yet, and we may never achieve that. We make our
mistakes, and it is the search which is important.

>  If you have suggestions on how
>  to convey that meaning more clearly, they are very welcome. 
Writing is hard (and disagreeing is much easier), so I don't really
have an answer.

I would maybe try to switch from "serve as example" to "serve as a
tool, which helps everyone to achieve that goal"

>  > It seems you are trying to make it sound more appealing or
> exciting. As you see it as a way to invite new people.
>  > But mission statement or vision is different from a marketing talking point. It is
> not what attracts attention or curiosity, it is what binds us together to do a specific
> thing.
>  > It is a hand wavy proclamation that says that Fedora Project's ultimate goal is
> the World Peace and Prosperity. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely support the goal :)
> But what makes Fedora to be Fedora is the way how exactly we are trying to help to reach
> this goal.
>
>  It's important to not conflate mission statements and vision
>  statements. A vision statement should be how we envision the world
>  (hence the name); it's supposed to be vague and hand-wavy. It's
>  purpose is inspirational, not practical. 
Ok, I get you point on mission vs vision, but then this vision part
seems to be weak for me.

The problem is that it hits very close to the Linkedin-level of
buzzwordness (yes, i've just invented this term), which more or less
triggers the internal adblock rather than excitement.

I mean is it really different from what everyone claims nowadays? Why
would I choose to look into this one in a thousand of similar ones?
I would generally agree with the statement of being welcoming and
such, but isn't it a default?

>  A mission statement defines
>  the scope of what we're going to do to make our vision come true. The
>  vision is broader than the Fedora Project could ever hope to achieve
>  on it's own. We'll do our part (which is what the mission statement
>  describes) and other communities will do theirs.
>
>  > Moreover, I have an alternative proposal [1] which I haven't got a lot of
> feedback yet.
>  > It maybe worded differently, but in short, I'd like to see the "Integrate
> First" statement added to our core values, somewhere next to the Upstream First
> thing.
>  >
>  I don't see that as an alternative proposal but a complimentary
>  proposal. This addresses the mission more than the vision. Part of the
>  reason you haven't had much feedback on this is that we realized we
>  needed to set the vision more explicitly before we can give it the
>  appropriate consideration. Once the vision statement is settled, I'll
>  use my agenda-making powers to push discussion on your proposal. :-) 
Thinking a bit more...
how about adding "inclusive, welcoming, and encourage experimentation
_in a collaborative way_"?

I'd say I know other communities which would encourage experimentation
even further, but what I always valued in Fedora is that we are not
just experimenting, we keep bringing the results of those experiments
back together.

>  > And I prefer to see Fedora's mission not to try and take
> over the world, but to fill in this gap, based on previous successful experience over many
> years, but also together with finding new ways, new workflows and even new definitions for
> it.
>  >
>  I totally agree. I think I can speak for the rest of the Council
>  members and say they all agree, too. We have a broad vision of the
>  world, but our goal is to focus on a narrow part of the execution.
>  
-- 
Aleksandra Fedorova
bookwar

[Máirín Duffy]

"We envision a world where free and open source software is accessible and
usable."

What kind of long view are you going for - 10, 20, 50 years? In the past 10-15 years
we've (the broader floss community) have already made and are making big strides
towards this, so I don't think this really is a  fresh inspiration. I think it could
reach for more, since it's a vision statement.

The other issue with this, an issue with most technological endeavors - it's focused
on the tech, not the people. If a piece of software is usable and accessible in the woods,
does anybody know or care?

I would suggest a statement here that focuses more on the world we want to be in (that our
work will help us create) rather than just narrowly on the tech within it eg

"We envision people around the world enjoying betterment across every area of life
touched by technology, driven by free and open source software."

Or something like that. Focus on the ppl and why the software matters though is my main
suggestion here, bc software isn't life and isn't the world. The accessibility and
usability become a matter of course / an implementation detail bc if you state people are
using it and it makes their lives better, it has to be so.

"In this world, software is built by communities that are inclusive, welcoming, and
encourage experimentation."

So this hits on the project vs. community issue. The first sentence focused more on the
project / software. This sentence, in contrast, focuses on the community. Is this full
statement meant primarily to drive the project, or the management of the community, or
both?

I also understand the importance of inclusivity, being welcoming etc. but the way it's
brought up here it comes across as a chore or a finger wag or a check list. Plus
inclusivity, welcoming, etc are a means to an end not the end. You're supposed to talk
abt the end in a vision statement, right?

I'm also not sure I agree with it. Is *all* software *only* built by *communities*?
What is a community exactly? If it's not a company, I disagree because while I think
open communities are great at achieving some things in software there are other things
(like support) they're not too good at. You know? And I think the solution is to
rephrase in a way that doesnt invite that line of questioning / debate bc that shouldnt be
the point.

Maybe smtg like this

"Diverse communities of people will participate in creation of this software, in an
immersive culture of experimentation, collaboration, and sincere camaraderie."

"The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this vision."

A reference is smtg you put up on a shelf to look at occasionally or to stand on to reach
a jar on a top shelf. :-) 

"The Fedora Project aims to inspire all who share this vision."

Hope this is helpful

~m

On January 14, 2020 9:24:14 AM EST, Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
wrote:
> A few years ago, the Fedora Council updated the Fedora mission
> statement.
> The result is functional but not particularly inspiring. It talks about
> what
> we’re doing, but not much about the why. So, this year, we worked on a
> new
> vision statement to serve as the proverbial “banner on a hilltop” that
> we
> can use to rally our existing community and to attract new
> contributors.
>
> Our draft is at:
>
> https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/lets-write-a-new-vision-statement...
>
> We need your feedback and help in crafting a final version. Please
> reply
> here in this thread to keep discussion in one place. We'd like to come
> to a
> decision on this in Februrary.
>
> -- 
> Matthew Miller
> <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
> Fedora Project Leader
> _______________________________________________
> council-discuss mailing list -- council-discuss(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to
> council-discuss-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]...
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[Zamir Sun]

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 10:24 PM Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  A few years ago, the Fedora Council updated the Fedora mission statement.
>  The result is functional but not particularly inspiring. It talks about what
>  we’re doing, but not much about the why. So, this year, we worked on a new
>  vision statement to serve as the proverbial “banner on a hilltop” that we
>  can use to rally our existing community and to attract new contributors.
>
>  Our draft is at:
>
>  https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/lets-write-a-new-vision-statement...
>  
I think I was one of whom strongly disagree with the current one
simply because 'that enables software developers and community
members' make me feel contributors is less important than technology.

Reading the new one, I think this draft sounds much more inspiring to
me. While I have a small suggestion.

"The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this
vision." I think it might be better if we say "The Fedora Project can
be ...". By changing 'will' to 'can' I want to make this sentence
feel
more about a possibility than a future goal.

Just my cents.

>  We need your feedback and help in crafting a final version. Please
> reply
>  here in this thread to keep discussion in one place. We'd like to come to a
>  decision on this in Februrary.
>
>  --
>  Matthew Miller
>  <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  Fedora Project Leader 
-- 
Ziqian SUN (Zamir)
zsun(a)fedoraproject.org
GPG : 1D86 6D4A 49CE 4BBD 72CF FCF5 D856 6E11 F2A0 525E
Want to know more about Fedora?
Visit https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/

[Till Maas]

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 09:24:14AM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
>  A few years ago, the Fedora Council updated the Fedora mission
> statement.
>  The result is functional but not particularly inspiring. It talks about what
>  we’re doing, but not much about the why. So, this year, we worked on a new
>  vision statement to serve as the proverbial “banner on a hilltop” that we
>  can use to rally our existing community and to attract new contributors.
>  
>  Our draft is at:
>  
>  https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/lets-write-a-new-vision-statement...
>  
>  We need your feedback and help in crafting a final version. Please reply
>  here in this thread to keep discussion in one place. We'd like to come to a
>  decision on this in Februrary. 
there was already great feedback in this thread. Here is my proposal
based on the original vision, the feedback and my thoughts:

"Free and open-source software makes live better. We envision everyone
benefiting from the free and open-source software they need to have the
best life. The Fedora Project provides a safe space for inclusive,
welcoming and open-minded communities to build and distribute this
software."

Some annotations:
- "open-minded" is the adjective that should mean that we encourage
  experimentation.
- This vision also focuses on actual benefits for people and not on the
  software just for its own sake
- In the original proposal, "will be" in the last sentence implied to me
  that Fedora does not follow this vision but only in a distant future
  when it will be a reference.

What are your thoughts?

Kind regards
Till

[Matthew Miller]

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 10:48:55AM -0000, Aleksandra Fedorova wrote:
>  First of all, i think this new message looks hostile, especially
> this
>  part: "The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this
>  vision", which reads as "If you share the vision, you must be in Fedora".
Oh! Like Ben, I also hadn't considered this interpretation. To parse it
carefully, note "a reference" not "_the_ reference". But I also
don't want
to have to tell people "no, we don't mean to be hostile -- you need to read
more carefully". Obviosuly that's not right. :)

>  But even it reworded I think the root of this disagreement lies in
> the
>  perception, what the vision statement supposed to do.
>  
>  It seems you are trying to make it sound more appealing or exciting. As
>  you see it as a way to invite new people. 
Yes, that's true.

>  But mission statement or vision is different from a marketing
> talking
>  point. It is not what attracts attention or curiosity, it is what binds us
>  together to do a specific thing. 
Well, yes, but the vision statement *should* be an aspirational "binding".
>  
>  And I don't see that thing in the proposed mission statement.
>  
>  It is a hand wavy proclamation that says that Fedora Project's ultimate
>  goal is the World Peace and Prosperity. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely
>  support the goal :) But what makes Fedora to be Fedora is the way how
>  exactly we are trying to help to reach this goal. 
Well, remember, the vision statement does not stand alone. It goes with the
values (our foundations) and the mission statement, as well as our strategic
plan and so on down. The Vision statement *isn't* supposed to say how we are
reaching our goal -- it *is* the statement of our desired result.


During the council meeting I gave some examples, including one I found when
trying to look for the GNOME project mission and vision and then landed on a
page selling garden gnomes.  Their mission and
vision (extracted from a little bit over-wordiness) are:

  Our Mission is to create and market garden gnomes that will bring a bit of
  humor and peace to people’s lives and will inspire deeper political,
  environmental, and spiritual awareness and reflection.

  Our Vision for the future is a world where humans, animals, garden gnomes,
  and other yard art live together in peace and harmony.

So, yes, World Peace and Prosperity might be in there a little bit. :)


>  Moreover, I have an alternative proposal [1] which I haven't got
> a lot of
>  feedback yet. 
>  It maybe worded differently, but in short, I'd like to see the
> "Integrate
>  First" statement added to our core values, somewhere next to the Upstream
>  First thing. 

I'm not convinced that I agree with this as a basic tenant, really. But
that's kind of a separate issue.... the vision really _should_ be about
change in the world, not about the specifics of what we're building.


>  And I prefer to see Fedora's mission not to try and take over the
> world,
>  but to fill in this gap, based on previous successful experience over many
>  years, but also together with finding new ways, new workflows and even new
>  definitions for it. 
We also wanted the statement to not be "world domination" — I agree with you
on that. Actually, I don't think that what you're saying here is _that_ far
off from what we ended up with!


-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Matthew Miller]

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 08:35:40PM +0530, Amita Sharma wrote:
>  Here is what my thoughts after reading the shared blog post:
>  
>  "We envision a world where free and open source software is accessible and
>  usable."
>  -- Why envision? If I am not wrong envision is "imagine as a future
>  possibility"
>  IMHO, We are very much in a world where free and open source software is
>  accessible and usable and Fedora is a great example of this. 
I think Fedora does provide a great example, but I also think we're
obviously not far enough. I'd love to hear alternate wordings.


>  
>  "The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares this
>  vision."
>  -- I feel we are not giving enough importance to Fedora here by quoting it
>  just a reference.
>  This meant to be Fedora's vision statement. So Fedora can't be just a
>  reference here. 
This is kind of funny because it's basically the opposite objection to 
Aleksandra's. But either way I definitely hear that we need to work on how
we're saying this. :)

-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Matthew Miller]

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 01:11:45PM -0500, Máirín Duffy wrote:
>  "We envision a world where free and open source software is
> accessible and
>  usable."
>  
>  What kind of long view are you going for - 10, 20, 50 years? In the past
>  10-15 years we've (the broader floss community) have already made and are
>  making big strides towards this, so I don't think this really is a  fresh
>  inspiration. I think it could reach for more, since it's a vision
>  statement. 
Let's say ten years. And, okay, yes, let's reach for more!

>  The other issue with this, an issue with most technological endeavors
> -
>  it's focused on the tech, not the people. If a piece of software is usable
>  and accessible in the woods, does anybody know or care? 
I think that's partly what we meant with "accessible" -- if it's in the
proverbial woods where no one sees it, it is not accessible. 


>  I would suggest a statement here that focuses more on the world we
> want to
>  be in (that our work will help us create) rather than just narrowly on the
>  tech within it eg
>  
>  "We envision people around the world enjoying betterment across every area
>  of life touched by technology, driven by free and open source software." 
Hmmmm -- doesn't that go *more* to talking about the tech? And, also, I'm
worried that it goes too far outside the scope of what we're actually able
to impact. "Every area of life touched by technology" is... a lot.


>  Or something like that. Focus on the ppl and why the software
> matters
>  though is my main suggestion here, bc software isn't life and isn't the
>  world. The accessibility and usability become a matter of course / an
>  implementation detail bc if you state people are using it and it makes
>  their lives better, it has to be so. 
Yeah, this I understand. Thanks. :)

>  "In this world, software is built by communities that are
> inclusive,
>  welcoming, and encourage experimentation."
>  
>  So this hits on the project vs. community issue. The first sentence
>  focused more on the project / software. This sentence, in contrast,
>  focuses on the community. Is this full statement meant primarily to drive
>  the project, or the management of the community, or both? 
[...]
>  I also understand the importance of inclusivity, being welcoming etc.
> but
>  the way it's brought up here it comes across as a chore or a finger wag or
>  a check list. Plus inclusivity, welcoming, etc are a means to an end not
>  the end. You're supposed to talk abt the end in a vision statement, right? 
Oh! To me, this _is_ about the end. I want a world of software that's built
by healthy collaborative communities — to me, that's a goal in itself.
("Friends" is as fundamental a value as "Features" or
"Freedom".)

>  I'm also not sure I agree with it. Is *all* software *only* built
> by
>  *communities*? What is a community exactly? If it's not a company, I
>  disagree because while I think open communities are great at achieving
>  some things in software there are other things (like support) they're not
>  too good at. You know? And I think the solution is to rephrase in a way
>  that doesnt invite that line of questioning / debate bc that shouldnt be
>  the point. 
I think our employer shows that this doesn't have to be a dichotomy.
Software can be built by communities and companies can be participants in
those communities. There are _some_ aspects of support where a company
standing behind a product is vital, but there are other areas of support
where an active, engaged community of helpers is objectively better.


>  "Diverse communities of people will participate in creation of
> this
>  software, in an immersive culture of experimentation, collaboration, and
>  sincere camaraderie." 
I like some of where you're going with this, I'd like something stronger
than "participate".


>  "The Fedora Project will be a reference for everyone who shares
> this vision."
>  
>  A reference is smtg you put up on a shelf to look at occasionally or to stand on to reach
> a jar on a top shelf. :-) 
>  
>  "The Fedora Project aims to inspire all who share this vision." 
Yes, I like it! 

>  Hope this is helpful 
Yes, very much!

-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 02:11:22PM +0800, Zamir Sun wrote:
>  I think I was one of whom strongly disagree with the current one
>  simply because 'that enables software developers and community
>  members' make me feel contributors is less important than technology. 
To be clear, we're not looking at replacing the mission. We want to add this
vision statement to work together with that statement.

-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 04:48:40PM +0100, Till Maas wrote:
>  "Free and open-source software makes live better. We envision
> everyone
>  benefiting from the free and open-source software they need to have the
>  best life. The Fedora Project provides a safe space for inclusive,
>  welcoming and open-minded communities to build and distribute this
>  software."
>  
>  Some annotations:
>  - "open-minded" is the adjective that should mean that we encourage
>    experimentation.
>  - This vision also focuses on actual benefits for people and not on the
>    software just for its own sake
>  - In the original proposal, "will be" in the last sentence implied to me
>    that Fedora does not follow this vision but only in a distant future
>    when it will be a reference.
>  
>  What are your thoughts? 
I like the part about making lives better. Providing a space is an
interesting idea I need to think about more. :)

-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Máirín Duffy]

On January 16, 2020 4:37:34 PM EST, Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 01:11:45PM -0500, Máirín Duffy wrote: 
> > I would suggest a statement here that focuses more on the world
> we
> want to
> > be in (that our work will help us create) rather than just narrowly
> on the
> > tech within it eg
> > 
> > "We envision people around the world enjoying betterment across every
> area
> > of life touched by technology, driven by free and open source
> software."
>
> Hmmmm -- doesn't that go *more* to talking about the tech? 
It doesn't - the technology is relegated to a means / a touch whereas the main subject
is people's lives improving. (And the unsaid thing which we've probably said
elsewhere is how open source is uniquely positioned to do that, privacy, innovation,
standards / compat, better tech, etc.)

>  And, also,
> I'm
> worried that it goes too far outside the scope of what we're actually
> able
> to impact. "Every area of life touched by technology" is... a lot. 
A vision statement should not be a statement of scope - that's the mission statement.
The vision statement is a statement of direction and purpose. *We* aren't the only
actors so making a world the way we envision it isn't all on us. It's the dream
that drives us and helps us figure out which way to go esp. if we hit a turn. 

> > "In this world, software is built by communities that are
> inclusive,
> > welcoming, and encourage experimentation."
> > 
> > So this hits on the project vs. community issue. The first sentence
> > focused more on the project / software. This sentence, in contrast,
> > focuses on the community. Is this full statement meant primarily to
> drive
> > the project, or the management of the community, or both?
> [...]
> > I also understand the importance of inclusivity, being welcoming etc.
> but
> > the way it's brought up here it comes across as a chore or a finger
> wag or
> > a check list. Plus inclusivity, welcoming, etc are a means to an end
> not
> > the end. You're supposed to talk abt the end in a vision statement,
> right?
>
> Oh! To me, this _is_ about the end. I want a world of software that's
> built
> by healthy collaborative communities — to me, that's a goal in itself.
> ("Friends" is as fundamental a value as "Features" or
> "Freedom".) 
But being welcoming and inclusive isnt the end if the community still isnt diverse (and I
would argue that is where we are now.... making strides towards a diverse community
ansolutely but not where I think we'd see ourselves in an ideal vision right?) I'd
argue diversity is the end, and welcoming / inclusivity / etc is how you get there.
Doesn't mean they get tossed out the window - same as w accessibility and usability -
they're required as a matter of course for the end so you don't need to explicitly
call them out.
> > I'm also not sure I agree with it. Is *all* software *only* built by
> > *communities*? What is a community exactly? If it's not a company, I
> > disagree because while I think open communities are great at
> achieving
> > some things in software there are other things (like support) they're
> not
> > too good at. You know? And I think the solution is to rephrase in a
> way
> > that doesnt invite that line of questioning / debate bc that shouldnt
> be
> > the point.
>
> I think our employer shows that this doesn't have to be a dichotomy.
> Software can be built by communities and companies can be participants
> in
> those communities. There are _some_ aspects of support where a company
> standing behind a product is vital, but there are other areas of
> support
> where an active, engaged community of helpers is objectively better.
>  
Right but my point wasnt whether or not a company can be part of a community - my point
was community is a term that invites that line of argument / spiral - you even took the
bait lol when I was just bringing it up in meta. It's probably better to just sidestep
it by rephrasing in a way where such esoteric questions don't come up - bc those
q's focus on the implementation and the how, not the what we want to achieve...

And the vision of the community shouldnt be to be a community... 

> > "Diverse communities of people will participate in creation
> of this
> > software, in an immersive culture of experimentation, collaboration,
> and
> > sincere camaraderie."
>
> I like some of where you're going with this, I'd like something
> stronger
> than "participate". 
s/participate in the creation of this software/create this software    ??
>  
Thanks for going thru everyone's feedback and taking the time to respond. It's
more fulfilling to take the time to review & reflect & and share when it's
clear it's being read and considered. :-)

~m
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[Jean-Baptiste Holcroft]

Thanks for sharing this text and asking for a community discussion about 
it.
This is the kind of things that let some room for people contributing in 
non technical fields of Fedora (yes, here I speak about localization).

Le 2020-01-16 22:40, Matthew Miller a écrit :
>  I like the part about making lives better. Providing a space is an
>  interesting idea I need to think about more. :) 
It goes in the right direction to talk about the people and the impact 
of free/libre software in life.
What Mairin and Till wrote is interesting, but we may go beyond 
self-interest of the user to go the the global interest.

Free/libre and open source software is a way to emancipate not only one 
person for it's own interest, but also the society in which the person 
is living in.
We provide tools to protect and tools to be used as weapons in many 
fights.

We can protect:
* privacy, because we don't sell anything and don't collect anything
* the balance between software user and software builders/seller
* culture, by allowing usage of local languages existence in the digital 
world
* ...

We provide weapons:
* for the many fights protect various interests,
* we empower people with tools and knowledge,
* ...

I'd love to:
* see the word "libre" written next to "Free",
* see the text talking about "people emancipation" (focused on what is 
the ability of the person to interact with the rest of the world) 
instead of "life improvement" (focused on the person's self interest).

Jean-Baptiste

[Tim Cuthbertson]

My minor comment is that I appreciate very much the focus on software freedom. IMO, this
is becoming more important as time goes on.

[Vitaliy Shatrov]

"As others, kernel 5.4.8 (and 5.8.10 and 5.5rc6) broke my wifi (
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fedora/comments/enj8y1/newest_kernel_breaks_wifi... 1 )
and sound ( also NVIDIA drivers in the kernel 5.3 were broken) ; So I had a new clean
install of Fedora 31." --
https://ask.fedoraproject.org/t/install-nvidia-drivers-without-updating-t...

How about to, nonetheless, add a linux-lts package in Fedora, to Fedora not being behind
some other bleeding edge distros anymore in the matters of recovery from something going
wrong?

[Ian Harris]

Whoops. I wanted to reply to this list but I think I did it wrong. I seem to have created
a new thread. I meant for my comments to appear on this list. The title of my post is
"My two cents worth", so please read it in the context of this thread.
Thanks.

[Matthew Miller]

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 01:18:10PM -0000, Ian Harris wrote:
>  Whoops. I wanted to reply to this list but I think I did it wrong. I
> seem
>  to have created a new thread. I meant for my comments to appear on this
>  list. The title of my post is "My two cents worth", so please read it in
>  the context of this thread. 
Thanks Ian! I'll make sure to read it there.

I'm just getting back to turning my attention to this after several weeks of
conference travel. :)

-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Ben Cotton]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the great discussion about this. The Council took your feedback
into consideration and came up with a new draft:

>  The Fedora Project envisions a world where everyone benefits from
> free 
and open source software built by inclusive, welcoming, and open-minded
communities.

You can read more about it on Matthew's CommBlog post[1] and continue
discussing in this thread.

[1]
https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/lets-keep-writing-a-new-vision-st...

-- 
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Senior Program Manager, Fedora & CentOS Stream
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis

[Ben Cotton]

Hi everyone. We can now see! The Council unanimously approved[1] the
second draft of the vision statement:

>  The Fedora Project envisions a world where everyone benefits from
> free and open source software built by inclusive, welcoming, and open-minded communities.
[1] https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/290

-- 
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Senior Program Manager, Fedora & CentOS Stream
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis

[Jhoanir Torres]

Hi there!

Is this change official now? Can we spread the voice on social networks and
local Fedora events?

Thanks!



El jue., 19 de marzo de 2020 08:17, Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt;
escribió:

>  Hi everyone. We can now see! The Council unanimously approved[1] the
>  second draft of the vision statement:
>
>  > The Fedora Project envisions a world where everyone benefits from free
>  and open source software built by inclusive, welcoming, and open-minded
>  communities.
>
>  [1] https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/290
>
>  --
>  Ben Cotton
>  He / Him / His
>  Senior Program Manager, Fedora & CentOS Stream
>  Red Hat
>  TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
>  _______________________________________________
>  council-discuss mailing list -- council-discuss(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to
>  council-discuss-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]...
>

[Ben Cotton]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 10:41 AM Jhoanir Torres
<jhoanir(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  Hi there!
>
>  Is this change official now? Can we spread the voice on social networks and local Fedora
> events?
>  
Yes, it's official. Spread the word far and wide. I'm working on
adding it to the project docs on the website.


-- 
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Senior Program Manager, Fedora & CentOS Stream
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis