6:30 a.m.
Hi Design team,
I've been working on a write up for the strategic working group
regarding UX design, and I want to make sure I'm clearly stating the
role of the Fedora Design team and how they interact with other
groups. The page I wrote is posted here:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/Desktop_user_experience_desi...
Are there places in that page where I could more explicitly outline
the work the Design team does regularly with other teams that affects
the look and feel of the Fedora distribution?
--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com
7:02 a.m.
Hi, Paul!
I can't give you any input but I just wanted to say how cool it is
that you are specifying this clearly. Very neat. Looks like Fedora
isn't repeating some mistakes we've seen elsewhere lately... ;)
I will be watching this with interest!
Fab
# Fabian A. Scherschel
# Podcaster, Blogger, Fedora Contributor
# https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FabianScherschel
7:05 a.m.
On 04/07/2010 02:30 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
I've been working on a write up for the strategic working group
regarding UX design, and I want to make sure I'm clearly stating the
role of the Fedora Design team and how they interact with other
groups. The page I wrote is posted here:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/Desktop_user_experience_desi...
I think there is a big overstatement with "often" in "The Fedora Desktop
SIG is often supported by the Fedora Design team in the creation of new UI".
--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
9:54 a.m.
On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 03:05:26PM +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 04/07/2010 02:30 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>
> I've been working on a write up for the strategic working group
> regarding UX design, and I want to make sure I'm clearly stating the
> role of the Fedora Design team and how they interact with other
> groups. The page I wrote is posted here:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/Desktop_user_experience_desi...
I think there is a big overstatement with "often" in "The Fedora Desktop
SIG is often supported by the Fedora Design team in the creation of new UI".
Perhaps I should be making a distinction between UI designed
specifically for Fedora and UI work that's done in an upstream
community. Would that help the sense of the document too?
--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com
5:23 p.m.
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Hash: SHA1
On 04/07/2010 04:30 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
Hi Design team,
I've been working on a write up for the strategic working group
regarding UX design, and I want to make sure I'm clearly stating the
role of the Fedora Design team and how they interact with other
groups. The page I wrote is posted here:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/Desktop_user_experience_desi...
Are there places in that page where I could more explicitly outline
the work the Design team does regularly with other teams that affects
the look and feel of the Fedora distribution?
That is interesting. It reminds one of former contributors initiating
that idea but to be fallen on deaf ear.
Glad that draft is back.
- --
Luya Tshimbalanga
Graphic & Web Designer
E: luya(a)fedoraproject.org
W: http://www.thefinalzone.net
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5:25 p.m.
On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 03:23:28PM -0700, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote:
On 04/07/2010 04:30 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> Hi Design team,
>
> I've been working on a write up for the strategic working group
> regarding UX design, and I want to make sure I'm clearly stating the
> role of the Fedora Design team and how they interact with other
> groups. The page I wrote is posted here:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/Desktop_user_experience_desi...
>
> Are there places in that page where I could more explicitly outline
> the work the Design team does regularly with other teams that affects
> the look and feel of the Fedora distribution?
>
That is interesting. It reminds one of former contributors initiating
that idea but to be fallen on deaf ear.
Glad that draft is back.
I've made a bunch of changes in the page that hopefully make it easier
to read and understand. Thanks to everyone who provided input along
the way.
--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com
6:09 p.m.
On 04/07/2010 05:00 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
Hi Design team,
I've been working on a write up for the strategic working group
regarding UX design, and I want to make sure I'm clearly stating the
role of the Fedora Design team and how they interact with other
groups. The page I wrote is posted here:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/Desktop_user_experience_desi...
Are there places in that page where I could more explicitly outline
the work the Design team does regularly with other teams that affects
the look and feel of the Fedora distribution?
I find this description a bit fuzzy and I assuming part of the goal of
documenting this is conflict resolution. I would like see a few
different decisions presented as examples to make the point you are
trying to make. So for example, let's say the Desktop SIG wants to
keep the current default theme and the design team proposes a new one or
vice versa, whose has the final authority? Does whatever is upstream
win or is the responsibility within one team or another?
What if the design team proposes a new UI for system-config-printer or
Anaconda?
The guideline suggests that design team should be consulted on Fedora
specific UI changes but is there a mandate or even a strong
recommendation to do so?
Rahul
7:55 p.m.
On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 04:39 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
I find this description a bit fuzzy and I assuming part of the goal of
documenting this is conflict resolution. I would like see a few
different decisions presented as examples to make the point you are
trying to make. So for example, let's say the Desktop SIG wants to
keep the current default theme and the design team proposes a new one or
vice versa, whose has the final authority? Does whatever is upstream
win or is the responsibility within one team or another?
"we work together". Really, the description is necessarily a bit fuzzy,
since the collaboration between various involved groups (fedora
designers, desktop team, upstreams) is a fluid process. And I would
argue that it is good to leave things on this level. Unless you want to
follow the Ubuntu model where the Canonical design team is calling the
shots behind closed doors...
What if the design team proposes a new UI for system-config-printer
or
Anaconda?
The guideline suggests that design team should be consulted on Fedora
specific UI changes but is there a mandate or even a strong
recommendation to do so?
It has rarely been the case in the past that the design team has
proposed changes 'spontaneously'. Most cases that I have been involved
in have started with a request for design advice from the other side.
Maybe this is something that we should consider changing. I think it
could be interesting to have 'UX focus areas' for a release. E.g. we
could declare F14 to be the 'release where we examine and improve the
printing experience', and organize UI reviews/papercut sessions around
that topic. Of course, this requires buy-in from the maintainers and
developers of affected packages.
Matthias
9:25 p.m.
On 04/08/2010 06:25 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
"we work together". Really, the description is necessarily
a bit fuzzy,
since the collaboration between various involved groups (fedora
designers, desktop team, upstreams) is a fluid process. And I would
argue that it is good to leave things on this level. Unless you want to
follow the Ubuntu model where the Canonical design team is calling the
shots behind closed doors...
On the contrary, that sort of thing is precisely what I am trying to
avoid and ensure that we have thought about this in length. If the
responsibilities are defined clearly, we set the expectations
accordingly and if we commit ourselves explicitly to work on a
collaborative way, we can expect the community to hold us accountable
for that. So I would like to see the document to a bit more explicit
about the process that we are trying to follow even if is a fluid one,
say so!
It has rarely been the case in the past that the design team has
proposed changes 'spontaneously'. Most cases that I have been involved
in have started with a request for design advice from the other side.
Maybe this is something that we should consider changing. I think it
could be interesting to have 'UX focus areas' for a release. E.g. we
could declare F14 to be the 'release where we examine and improve the
printing experience', and organize UI reviews/papercut sessions around
that topic. Of course, this requires buy-in from the maintainers and
developers of affected packages.
Yes. I would like to see the design team focus beyond themes, more into
these sort of broader changes, working with the Desktop SIG (Not that it
isn't already happening)
Rahul
2:57 a.m.
On Thursday 08 April 2010 04:25:59 am Rahul Sundaram wrote:
On 04/08/2010 06:25 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> "we work together". Really, the description is necessarily a bit fuzzy,
> since the collaboration between various involved groups (fedora
> designers, desktop team, upstreams) is a fluid process. And I would
> argue that it is good to leave things on this level. Unless you want to
> follow the Ubuntu model where the Canonical design team is calling the
> shots behind closed doors...
On the contrary, that sort of thing is precisely what I am trying to
avoid and ensure that we have thought about this in length. If the
responsibilities are defined clearly, we set the expectations
accordingly and if we commit ourselves explicitly to work on a
collaborative way, we can expect the community to hold us accountable
for that. So I would like to see the document to a bit more explicit
about the process that we are trying to follow even if is a fluid one,
say so!
> It has rarely been the case in the past that the design team has
> proposed changes 'spontaneously'. Most cases that I have been involved
> in have started with a request for design advice from the other side.
>
> Maybe this is something that we should consider changing. I think it
> could be interesting to have 'UX focus areas' for a release. E.g. we
> could declare F14 to be the 'release where we examine and improve the
> printing experience', and organize UI reviews/papercut sessions around
> that topic. Of course, this requires buy-in from the maintainers and
> developers of affected packages.
Yes. I would like to see the design team focus beyond themes, more into
these sort of broader changes, working with the Desktop SIG (Not that it
isn't already happening)
Hi Rahul,
this shouldn't be limited by "Desktop SIG" only, there are other teams over
there - already mentioned Anaconda, we (system configuration tools) etc... So
instead of mentioning Desktop SIG I would use Fedora sub-projects - this of
course means broader collaboration - project, UX team, destkop team and input
from other (possibly) affected teams.
But yes - it should go beyond wallpaper, splashes and marketing banners -
maybe more consistency over releases would allow design team (and me too) do
more work. But on the other side - I like new visual experience (and really
very different every release). The dark side - I don't have time to follow it
in KDE everywhere I'd like to see (e.g Plasma theme).
Jaroslav
Rahul
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--
Jaroslav Řezník <jreznik(a)redhat.com>
Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno
Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 602 797 774
Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/
8:15 p.m.
On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 04:39:16AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
On 04/07/2010 05:00 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> Hi Design team,
>
> I've been working on a write up for the strategic working group
> regarding UX design, and I want to make sure I'm clearly stating the
> role of the Fedora Design team and how they interact with other
> groups. The page I wrote is posted here:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/Desktop_user_experience_desi...
>
> Are there places in that page where I could more explicitly outline
> the work the Design team does regularly with other teams that affects
> the look and feel of the Fedora distribution?
>
I find this description a bit fuzzy and I assuming part of the goal of
documenting this is conflict resolution. I would like see a few
different decisions presented as examples to make the point you are
trying to make. So for example, let's say the Desktop SIG wants to
keep the current default theme and the design team proposes a new one or
vice versa, whose has the final authority? Does whatever is upstream
win or is the responsibility within one team or another?
What if the design team proposes a new UI for system-config-printer or
Anaconda?
The guideline suggests that design team should be consulted on Fedora
specific UI changes but is there a mandate or even a strong
recommendation to do so?
There is a balance that has to occur. The overall Fedora preference
is not to depart heavily from upstream, and that should influence
decisions. At the same time, Fedora also needs to have some
distinctive look and feel, and at times those may come into conflict.
Overall we want experienced UI designers to make these decisions,
which is why the Design team is responsible for overall look and feel.
At the same time we have to strike a balance for meritocracy, and the
people doing the work also have to both take responsibility for
changes, and also consult with and respect the input of experienced
people around them. We want these decisions to be made
*collaboratively*, not by pitting any one team against another.
The Anaconda example is interesting because in fact Mairin Duffy
worked on that redesign. (I don't know about s-c-p, although that
seems quite improved over the F-7/F-8 era version.) A proposed UI
always has to be put in place by developers, and that process is a
collaboration, not a contest.
"Should" is definitely a strong recommendation (that's the dictionary
sense at least). I don't see a way of making the consultations
mandatory unless we can guarantee that everyone will get the requisite
amount of experienced designer time. To progress to that point, we
should spend time figuring out how to get more of those designers
actively involved.
--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com
2:59 a.m.
On Wednesday 07 April 2010 01:30:48 pm Paul W. Frields wrote:
Hi Design team,
I've been working on a write up for the strategic working group
regarding UX design, and I want to make sure I'm clearly stating the
role of the Fedora Design team and how they interact with other
groups. The page I wrote is posted here:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/Desktop_user_experience_design
ers
Are there places in that page where I could more explicitly outline
the work the Design team does regularly with other teams that affects
the look and feel of the Fedora distribution?
Hi Paul,
I wouldn't limit the scope of this project only on Desktop SIG - it's a big
but not only the one consumer of UX design. But of course other projects
should work together with UX and desktop team together.
Jaroslav
--
Jaroslav Řezník <jreznik(a)redhat.com>
Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno
Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 602 797 774
Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/
8:44 a.m.
On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 09:59:35AM +0200, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
On Wednesday 07 April 2010 01:30:48 pm Paul W. Frields wrote:
> Hi Design team,
>
> I've been working on a write up for the strategic working group
> regarding UX design, and I want to make sure I'm clearly stating the
> role of the Fedora Design team and how they interact with other
> groups. The page I wrote is posted here:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/Desktop_user_experience_design
> ers
>
> Are there places in that page where I could more explicitly outline
> the work the Design team does regularly with other teams that affects
> the look and feel of the Fedora distribution?
Hi Paul,
I wouldn't limit the scope of this project only on Desktop SIG - it's a big
but not only the one consumer of UX design. But of course other projects
should work together with UX and desktop team together.
You're right about the scope of Design work, Jaroslav. The page I
wrote is not a definition of the Design team's work, but an answer to
a specific question that was posed to the Board. So it's necessarily
limited in scope to (hopefully) do a good job of answering that
specific question.
But a lot of the discussion in that page draws from the history and
practice on the Design team of working with many other parts of
Fedora. If anyone wants to draw out pieces to put on the Design
team's main wiki page (or anywhere else that makes sense), I'd
encourage it.
--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com
5125
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design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
12 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Fabian A. Scherschel -
Jaroslav Reznik -
Luya Tshimbalanga -
Matthias Clasen -
Nicu Buculei -
Paul W. Frields -
Rahul Sundaram