Re: Considering a logo refresh
by Máirín Duffy
Hey gnokii,
OK your language wasnt clear to me so I wanted to make sure I addressed the issues under the broadest possible interpretation.
There are a lot of ppl who know Fedora isnt Facebook. It's in trying to introduce Fedora to the next generation where we have issues. Linux isnt where it was in the 1990s, 2000s. We're getting people involved in open source much higher up the stack than the OS now; we have developers getting systems from cloud providers who may not ever install an OS bare metal So we have to not only look at who knows us now, but who we want to know us, use us, and use open source who doesn't yet.
This is absolutely not something to be rushed through, and there's no foregone conclusion. If we think it won't work after trying some things out, I don't we should do it.
I know a lot of processes today start with the solution and the "research" up front is a stage show. (US politics right now, enough said.) But that's not the case here.
~m
Sent from my phone, not an iphone.
-------- Original message --------From: "S.Kemter" <sirko.kemter(a)gmail.com> Date: 10/5/18 1:23 PM (GMT-05:00) To: design-team(a)lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: [Design-team] Re: Considering a logo refresh
He Mo,
you missed the point, I did not ask where the weakness of the logo is.
And Facebook is a funny argument, I noticed that to, as I was in Europe.
Here no such problems. But I am the guy who looks in the trash for the
flyer and I noticed that most people who made such comments know exactly
its not FB. You missed even one point look at the little man who raises
his right arm ;)
Its about not rushing it trough, its about thinking what will happen and
who is inflicted and prevent that to much damage is done
Am 05.10.2018 um 23:48 schrieb Máirín Duffy:
> Hey gnokii!
>
> So the parts where we have issues that still exist:
>
> - It is a very common confusion between the Fedora logo and the Facebook logo. I see it in working with high school and college students, I get it from comments about my laptop stickers and T-shirts - a white lower case f on a medium blue background is unfortunately hard for us to own when a company with a reach of billions of daily users is our competition.
>
> - the speech bubble. it's lopsided. it's hard to center. It's hard to fit into shapes. E.g. how do you fit the speech bubble on a hex sticker and have it look good - this was a recent challenge Micah worked on. Someone upstream in the hex sticker repo "helpfully" pushed a Fedora hex design that stripped the bubble from the logo entirely, against our usage guidelines - Micah caught it and is now working on convincing upstream to adopt one that adheres to our guidelines.
>
> - there is no possible way to make the logomark one color. from simple things like one-color printing, to other things like providing one color icons and logos for conference websites and icon systems... it's a very annoying issue that comes up all the time.
>
> - Printing the logo on darker backgrounds - people don't always go through our team, you know this well :) We end up with swag and other items all over the place that are against our logo guidelines, e.g., with thick white outlines along the logo that make it look weird so it stands out on a background that the blue color doesn't contrast well with. :(
>
> - Because the logo has a number of challenging oddities that come up as you try to work with it, as you are well aware of :) it gets a lot of abuse / misuse so it requires a lot more hand-holding by our team even though we're not really resourced (as one of the teams in Fedora that is really 80% or more volunteer) to provide such a high touch level of support. A logo that was more straightforward to work with would - I hope - decrease the amount of design team handholding necessary for it to be reproduced correctly / require less specialized skills.
>
> - For all these years it does kill me that the logo uses Bryant2, a proprietary font. A logo is so central to a brand, it's sort of the soul of a thing - and even though open source is a premier aspect of our identity, the very thing that expresses our identity showcases a font that is not, was created in Illustrator, was not created via an open community process, etc. etc. etc. It doesn't serve as an example that the open source collaborative way is the right way to do things.
>
>
> I get what you're saying about the logos for the editions being different now. They used to be integrated into a system. I don't know the background of the Silverblue logo, but it does not follow our edition logo guidelines and unfortunately we weren't consulted about it (it is a beautiful logo, it's just a missed oppty.) I think at this point it is probably too late to change it because of the investment. It means though, since silverblue is IMHO the most critical edition for Fedora's future, that we'll have to deal with it, embrace it, and come up with yet another system for editions that is less tight than the cloud/atomic | server | workstation system we've had in the past couple of years or so. It's ok. As it was, the edition names were fairly generic ("server" "workstation" etc), Silverblue is a nice standalone name that identifies what it is and gives a bit more vibrancy to our 'portfolio.'
>
>
> I would *strongly* push for logo changes that are honestly just an iteration of what we have, and would still recognizably look like Fedora. I would NOT support a clean slate, from scratch logo design process. You are very correct in that we have well-established branding. I want a refreshed logo that someone would look at and say, "Oh, it looks like Fedora cleaned up their logo, cool" not "What the heck is that? That doesn't look like Fedora? Is that a hat company?" Etc.
>
> I played around with some ideas along these lines to show what I mean. When Matthew files the ticket I'll post them to it.
>
> Does this make sense?
>
> Cheers,
> ~m
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "S.Kemter" <sirko.kemter(a)gmail.com>
>> To: design-team(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> Sent: Friday, October 5, 2018 12:30:56 PM
>> Subject: [Design-team] Re: Considering a logo refresh
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Just one question, which of the "parts" where we had trouble still exists? I
>> mean where we had to extend the logo guidelines, cloud became very fast
>> Atomic and looking to this logo it looks different to the other ones. The
>> cloud version before matched much more to the other ones.
>>
>> So why should we change a well established branding for some things that are
>> shorter in life? I mean if I look around me, if I go the parking area of a
>> university I definitely find some bike with an Fedora sticker and they
>> actually know - thats Fedora and what it is and how long it took me to get
>> to this point. With some of the points it would be so serious changes that I
>> would have to begin at zero. Not to mention it would take us years, to equip
>> all Ambassadors new.
>>
>> So when there shall be done something it has to be carefully and I dont see
>> that coming
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> br gnokii
>>
>> Am 05.10.2018 um 17:49 schrieb Máirín Duffy:
>>
>>
>> Hi Onyeibo,
>>
>> It's the Fedora logo itself that has issues. The other logos I mentioned were
>> just something that had to be discussed in updating our logo docs that
>> brought up the topic of changing the Fedora logo.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> ~m
>>
>> On October 5, 2018 3:36:42 AM EDT, Onyeibo Oku <onyeibo(a)schemefusion.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I fail to appreciate the points in this discussion without visuals
>> Can someone point me to he offending graphics? URLs please?
>>
>> Regards
>> Onyeibo
>>
>> On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 22:05 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
>>
>> What do you think fellow, design team members?
>>
>> Full disclosure, I brought this up to Matthew yesterday when we were
>> discussing the ticket on converting the logo guidelines to asciidoc.
>> We realized they have to be updated with some of the new stuff we've
>> been working on (Fedora IoT logo, Fedora CoreOS logo, etc). And I
>> complained about how I wish I could update the logo too :-)
>>
>> I think a lot of us have struggled with the inability to do one color
>> and the off-centeredness of the bubble. (And wouldn't an open source
>> font be nice??)
>>
>> ~m
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my phone, not an iphone.
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: "Justin W. Flory" <jflory7(a)gmail.com> Date: 10/4/18 5:45 PM
>> (GMT-05:00)
>> To: council-discuss(a)lists.fedoraproject.org Cc: Fedora Design Team
>> <design-team(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> Subject: [Design-team] Re:
>> Considering a logo refresh
>>
>> On 10/4/18 5:02 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
>>
>> Our "freedom + infinity + voice" logo is awesome -- but it also has some
>>
>> problems:
>>
>> * It doesn't work well at small sizes
>> * It doesn't work at all in a single color
>> * The "voice" bubble means it's hard to center visually in designs
>> * The Fedora wordmark is based on a non-open-source font
>> * I'm tired of explaining that it's not Facebook
>>
>> As much as I love our "classic" logo, I think it may be time for a refresh.
>>
>> It's not just about problems -- as we're getting into Year 15, and five
>>
>> years (!) of Fedora.next , our editions strategy is drifting away from
>>
>> "Fedora + logical thing" (like "Fedora Server" or "Fedora Cloud") into more
>>
>> unique brands like "Fedora CoreOS" or "Fedora Silverblue". As I said at
>>
>> Flock, the important thing about Fedora to me is the _people_ — I'd like
>>
>> "Fedora" to be more assocated with the project and the community rather than
>>
>> our software artifacts. I'd love to have a logo which can work as a
>> "community umbrella".
>>
>> What do you think? This logic makes sense to me. I'm also open-minded to a
>> 2018 refresh.
>> There should probably be some level of engagement with the Fedora
>> Design
>> Team on this too.
>>
>> It is too bad tattoos aren't as easy to update as Fedora. :)
>> design-team mailing list -- design-team(a)lists.fedoraproject.org To
>> unsubscribe send an email to design-team-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List
>> Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List
>> Archives:
>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/design-team@lists.fedorapro...
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>> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List
>> Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List
>> Archives:
>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/design-team@lists.fedorapro...
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> unsubscribe send an email to design-team-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List
>> Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List
>> Archives:
>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/design-team@lists.fedorapro...
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
> _______________________________________________
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5 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Considering a logo refresh
by Máirín Duffy
Hi Francis,
I appreciate and admire your enthusiasm, but a few things:
- We're not boys here. At least half of us are women on this team (as am I.) We do consider gendered language addressing the group to be exclusionary.
- You are *most* welcome to join the team and even if not a member your feedback is welcome, but we do have a process for joining the team. See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design
- It's better not to attach large attachments to the mailing list.
Thanks,~m
Sent from my phone, not an iphone.
-------- Original message --------From: Francis Angonesse <francis.agn(a)outlook.com> Date: 10/5/18 2:04 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Fedora Design Team <design-team(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> Subject: [Design-team] Re: Considering a logo refresh
Hello boys,
fedora concept are nice 😊
we just need a little golden ratio on it?
look at my whale sketch (maybe docker), offcourse it isnt painted XD
De: S.Kemter <sirko.kemter(a)gmail.com>
Enviado: sexta-feira, 5 de outubro de 2018 15:20
Para: design-team(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
Assunto: [Design-team] Re: Considering a logo refresh
He Mo,
you missed the point, I did not ask where the weakness of the logo is.
And Facebook is a funny argument, I noticed that to, as I was in Europe.
Here no such problems. But I am the guy who looks in the trash for the
flyer and I noticed that most people who made such comments know exactly
its not FB. You missed even one point look at the little man who raises
his right arm ;)
Its about not rushing it trough, its about thinking what will happen and
who is inflicted and prevent that to much damage is done
Am 05.10.2018 um 23:48 schrieb Máirín Duffy:
> Hey gnokii!
>
> So the parts where we have issues that still exist:
>
> - It is a very common confusion between the Fedora logo and the Facebook logo. I see it in working with high school and college students, I get it from comments about my laptop stickers and T-shirts - a white lower case f on a medium blue background is unfortunately
hard for us to own when a company with a reach of billions of daily users is our competition.
>
> - the speech bubble. it's lopsided. it's hard to center. It's hard to fit into shapes. E.g. how do you fit the speech bubble on a hex sticker and have it look good - this was a recent challenge Micah worked on. Someone upstream in the hex sticker repo "helpfully"
pushed a Fedora hex design that stripped the bubble from the logo entirely, against our usage guidelines - Micah caught it and is now working on convincing upstream to adopt one that adheres to our guidelines.
>
> - there is no possible way to make the logomark one color. from simple things like one-color printing, to other things like providing one color icons and logos for conference websites and icon systems... it's a very annoying issue that comes up all the time.
>
> - Printing the logo on darker backgrounds - people don't always go through our team, you know this well :) We end up with swag and other items all over the place that are against our logo guidelines, e.g., with thick white outlines along the logo that make
it look weird so it stands out on a background that the blue color doesn't contrast well with. :(
>
> - Because the logo has a number of challenging oddities that come up as you try to work with it, as you are well aware of :) it gets a lot of abuse / misuse so it requires a lot more hand-holding by our team even though we're not really resourced (as one
of the teams in Fedora that is really 80% or more volunteer) to provide such a high touch level of support. A logo that was more straightforward to work with would - I hope - decrease the amount of design team handholding necessary for it to be reproduced
correctly / require less specialized skills.
>
> - For all these years it does kill me that the logo uses Bryant2, a proprietary font. A logo is so central to a brand, it's sort of the soul of a thing - and even though open source is a premier aspect of our identity, the very thing that expresses our identity
showcases a font that is not, was created in Illustrator, was not created via an open community process, etc. etc. etc. It doesn't serve as an example that the open source collaborative way is the right way to do things.
>
>
> I get what you're saying about the logos for the editions being different now. They used to be integrated into a system. I don't know the background of the Silverblue logo, but it does not follow our edition logo guidelines and unfortunately we weren't consulted
about it (it is a beautiful logo, it's just a missed oppty.) I think at this point it is probably too late to change it because of the investment. It means though, since silverblue is IMHO the most critical edition for Fedora's future, that we'll have to
deal with it, embrace it, and come up with yet another system for editions that is less tight than the cloud/atomic | server | workstation system we've had in the past couple of years or so. It's ok. As it was, the edition names were fairly generic ("server"
"workstation" etc), Silverblue is a nice standalone name that identifies what it is and gives a bit more vibrancy to our 'portfolio.'
>
>
> I would *strongly* push for logo changes that are honestly just an iteration of what we have, and would still recognizably look like Fedora. I would NOT support a clean slate, from scratch logo design process. You are very correct in that we have well-established
branding. I want a refreshed logo that someone would look at and say, "Oh, it looks like Fedora cleaned up their logo, cool" not "What the heck is that? That doesn't look like Fedora? Is that a hat company?" Etc.
>
> I played around with some ideas along these lines to show what I mean. When Matthew files the ticket I'll post them to it.
>
> Does this make sense?
>
> Cheers,
> ~m
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "S.Kemter" <sirko.kemter(a)gmail.com>
>> To: design-team(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> Sent: Friday, October 5, 2018 12:30:56 PM
>> Subject: [Design-team] Re: Considering a logo refresh
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Just one question, which of the "parts" where we had trouble still exists? I
>> mean where we had to extend the logo guidelines, cloud became very fast
>> Atomic and looking to this logo it looks different to the other ones. The
>> cloud version before matched much more to the other ones.
>>
>> So why should we change a well established branding for some things that are
>> shorter in life? I mean if I look around me, if I go the parking area of a
>> university I definitely find some bike with an Fedora sticker and they
>> actually know - thats Fedora and what it is and how long it took me to get
>> to this point. With some of the points it would be so serious changes that I
>> would have to begin at zero. Not to mention it would take us years, to equip
>> all Ambassadors new.
>>
>> So when there shall be done something it has to be carefully and I dont see
>> that coming
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> br gnokii
>>
>> Am 05.10.2018 um 17:49 schrieb Máirín Duffy:
>>
>>
>> Hi Onyeibo,
>>
>> It's the Fedora logo itself that has issues. The other logos I mentioned were
>> just something that had to be discussed in updating our logo docs that
>> brought up the topic of changing the Fedora logo.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> ~m
>>
>> On October 5, 2018 3:36:42 AM EDT, Onyeibo Oku <onyeibo(a)schemefusion.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I fail to appreciate the points in this discussion without visuals
>> Can someone point me to he offending graphics? URLs please?
>>
>> Regards
>> Onyeibo
>>
>> On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 22:05 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
>>
>> What do you think fellow, design team members?
>>
>> Full disclosure, I brought this up to Matthew yesterday when we were
>> discussing the ticket on converting the logo guidelines to asciidoc.
>> We realized they have to be updated with some of the new stuff we've
>> been working on (Fedora IoT logo, Fedora CoreOS logo, etc). And I
>> complained about how I wish I could update the logo too :-)
>>
>> I think a lot of us have struggled with the inability to do one color
>> and the off-centeredness of the bubble. (And wouldn't an open source
>> font be nice??)
>>
>> ~m
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my phone, not an iphone.
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: "Justin W. Flory" <jflory7(a)gmail.com> Date: 10/4/18 5:45 PM
>> (GMT-05:00)
>> To: council-discuss(a)lists.fedoraproject.org Cc: Fedora Design Team
>> <design-team(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> Subject: [Design-team] Re:
>> Considering a logo refresh
>>
>> On 10/4/18 5:02 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
>>
>> Our "freedom + infinity + voice" logo is awesome -- but it also has some
>>
>> problems:
>>
>> * It doesn't work well at small sizes
>> * It doesn't work at all in a single color
>> * The "voice" bubble means it's hard to center visually in designs
>> * The Fedora wordmark is based on a non-open-source font
>> * I'm tired of explaining that it's not Facebook
>>
>> As much as I love our "classic" logo, I think it may be time for a refresh.
>>
>> It's not just about problems -- as we're getting into Year 15, and five
>>
>> years (!) of Fedora.next , our editions strategy is drifting away from
>>
>> "Fedora + logical thing" (like "Fedora Server" or "Fedora Cloud") into more
>>
>> unique brands like "Fedora CoreOS" or "Fedora Silverblue". As I said at
>>
>> Flock, the important thing about Fedora to me is the _people_ — I'd like
>>
>> "Fedora" to be more assocated with the project and the community rather than
>>
>> our software artifacts. I'd love to have a logo which can work as a
>> "community umbrella".
>>
>> What do you think? This logic makes sense to me. I'm also open-minded to a
>> 2018 refresh.
>> There should probably be some level of engagement with the Fedora
>> Design
>> Team on this too.
>>
>> It is too bad tattoos aren't as easy to update as Fedora. :)
>> design-team mailing list -- design-team(a)lists.fedoraproject.org To
>> unsubscribe send an email to design-team-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> Fedora Code of Conduct:
https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List
Fedora Code of Conduct - getfedora.org
getfedora.org
The Fedora community is made up of a mixture of professionals and volunteers from all over the world, working on every aspect of the distribution from coding through to marketing.
>> Guidelines:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List
>> Archives:
>>
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/design-team@lists.fedorapro...
>> design-team mailing list -- design-team(a)lists.fedoraproject.org To
>> unsubscribe send an email to design-team-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> Fedora Code of Conduct:
https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List
>> Guidelines:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List
>> Archives:
>>
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/design-team@lists.fedorapro...
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> design-team mailing list -- design-team(a)lists.fedoraproject.org To
>> unsubscribe send an email to design-team-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> Fedora Code of Conduct:
https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List
>> Guidelines:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List
>> Archives:
>>
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/design-team@lists.fedorapro...
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> design-team mailing list -- design-team(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to design-team-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> Fedora Code of Conduct:
https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
>> List Guidelines:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>> List Archives:
>>
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/design-team@lists.fedorapro...
>>
> _______________________________________________
> design-team mailing list -- design-team(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to design-team-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/design-team@lists.fedorapro...
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to design-team-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct:
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https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives:
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5 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0
Re: Considering a logo refresh
by Justin W. Flory
On 10/4/18 5:02 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> Our "freedom + infinity + voice" logo is awesome -- but it also has some
> problems:
>
> * It doesn't work well at small sizes
> * It doesn't work at all in a single color
> * The "voice" bubble means it's hard to center visually in designs
> * The Fedora wordmark is based on a non-open-source font
> * I'm tired of explaining that it's not Facebook
>
> As much as I love our "classic" logo, I think it may be time for a refresh.
>
> It's not just about problems -- as we're getting into Year 15, and five
> years (!) of Fedora.next, our editions strategy is drifting away from
> "Fedora + logical thing" (like "Fedora Server" or "Fedora Cloud") into more
> unique brands like "Fedora CoreOS" or "Fedora Silverblue". As I said at
> Flock, the important thing about Fedora to me is the _people_ — I'd like
> "Fedora" to be more assocated with the project and the community rather than
> our software artifacts. I'd love to have a logo which can work as a
> "community umbrella".
>
> What do you think?
>
This logic makes sense to me. I'm also open-minded to a 2018 refresh.
There should probably be some level of engagement with the Fedora Design
Team on this too.
It is too bad tattoos aren't as easy to update as Fedora. :)
--
Cheers,
Justin W. Flory
jflory7(a)gmail.com
5 years, 6 months
- 1
- 0