Space for wallpapers in Fedora 16

[Máirín Duffy]

Hi everyone,

The Fedora design team had a meeting today for Fedora 16 planning and
we'd like to try for a four-wallpaper pack for Fedora 16. (We can
provide a slideshow XML file for GNOME, if KDE / XFCE / LXDE support
something like slideshows let us know and we can try to provide it).

We wanted to provide a heads up so that you could account for the space
early on in the cycle if you wanted all of the wallpapers for your spin;
in the past when we've done a slideshow set it has caused last-minute
space issues: we'd very much like to avoid that. 

Based on previous wallpapers and the high resolution we are targeting,
6-8 MB is probably a good guesstimate of the maximum amount of space we
might need. In the end, we may need to pull back and focus on really
polishing only one of the wallpapers; as the release progresses we can
keep you updated on what to expect.

If you're interested in following the artwork progress, we have an
artboard here: http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/

Is this okay?

Thanks,
~m

(As a favor to me, I'd appreciate it very much if you could keep me on
the CC of replies :) )

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Tue, Jun 07, 2011 at 17:45:40 -0400,
  Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  
>  We wanted to provide a heads up so that you could account for the space
>  early on in the cycle if you wanted all of the wallpapers for your spin;
>  in the past when we've done a slideshow set it has caused last-minute
>  space issues: we'd very much like to avoid that.  
One suggestion I have is get something in early that is about the right
size even if it doesn't look good. That will provide an early warning
to people about potential size issues that might miss or forget about
the heads up notice later on.

[Misha Shnurapet]

08.06.2011, 06:45, "Máirín Duffy" <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>  If you're interested in following the artwork progress, we have
> an
>  artboard here: http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/ 
Are all the previous submissions gone?

--
Best regards,
Misha Shnurapet, Fedora Project Contributor
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Shnurapet
shnurapet AT fedoraproject.org, GPG: 00217306

[Máirín Duffy]

On Wed, 2011-06-08 at 01:58 +0000, Misha Shnurapet wrote:
>  08.06.2011, 06:45, "Máirín Duffy"
> <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>  > If you're interested in following the artwork progress, we have an
>  > artboard here: http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/
>  
>  Are all the previous submissions gone? 
They are, and it's my fault. publictest04 had to be taken down so I had
to rebuild it. I thought I had backed it up properly before it had to be
wiped and rebuilt... but when I went to rebuild it the data from the
filesystem was gone (I still had the DB). But I couldn't rebuild it from
what I had so I had to start from scratch. I'm really sorry :(

~m

[Misha Shnurapet]

08.06.2011, 11:48, "Máirín Duffy" <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>  On Wed, 2011-06-08 at 01:58 +0000, Misha Shnurapet wrote:
>
> >  08.06.2011, 06:45, "Máirín Duffy" <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org>;:
> >>  If you're interested in following the artwork progress, we have an
> >>  artboard here: http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/
> >  Are all the previous submissions gone?
>
>  They are, and it's my fault. publictest04 had to be taken down so I had
>  to rebuild it. I thought I had backed it up properly before it had to be
>  wiped and rebuilt... but when I went to rebuild it the data from the
>  filesystem was gone (I still had the DB). But I couldn't rebuild it from
>  what I had so I had to start from scratch. I'm really sorry :( 
It's OK. I'll post mine back if you don't mind.

-- 
Best regards,
Misha Shnurapet, Fedora Project Contributor
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Shnurapet
shnurapet AT fedoraproject.org, GPG: 00217306

[Kevin Kofler]

Máirín Duffy wrote:
>  The Fedora design team had a meeting today for Fedora 16 planning
> and
>  we'd like to try for a four-wallpaper pack for Fedora 16. (We can
>  provide a slideshow XML file for GNOME, if KDE / XFCE / LXDE support
>  something like slideshows let us know and we can try to provide it).
>  
>  We wanted to provide a heads up so that you could account for the space
>  early on in the cycle if you wanted all of the wallpapers for your spin;
>  in the past when we've done a slideshow set it has caused last-minute
>  space issues: we'd very much like to avoid that. 
I'm sorry for raining on your parade again, but I really don't think this is 
a good idea. I'd prefer very much to use the available limited space for 
software than for wallpapers!

The KDE spin was at 692 MiB for Fedora 15 and our plan is to add Kamoso 
(webcam application, newly released and reviewed) and at least one backup 
solution for Fedora 16. It all has to fit into 700 MiB. That means, we're 
basically already out of space. We may have to scale back our plans due to 
the usual package size growth we've been seeing at each release anyway, it'd 
be sad if wallpapers were the issue.

I realize and understand that a good-looking default wallpaper is a very 
important part of the user experience. I just don't think we need 4 of them 
installed by default. Users can easily replace their wallpaper anyway. I 
think it'd be a much better idea to have one beautiful default wallpaper and 
focus on polishing that, also because schedules are tight (as you have 
noticed in previous release cycles).

        Kevin Kofler

[Elad]

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at&gt; wrote:

>  Máirín Duffy wrote:
>  > The Fedora design team had a meeting today for Fedora 16 planning and
>  > we'd like to try for a four-wallpaper pack for Fedora 16. (We can
>  > provide a slideshow XML file for GNOME, if KDE / XFCE / LXDE support
>  > something like slideshows let us know and we can try to provide it).
>  >
>  > We wanted to provide a heads up so that you could account for the space
>  > early on in the cycle if you wanted all of the wallpapers for your spin;
>  > in the past when we've done a slideshow set it has caused last-minute
>  > space issues: we'd very much like to avoid that.
>
>  I'm sorry for raining on your parade again, but I really don't think this
>  is
>  a good idea. I'd prefer very much to use the available limited space for
>  software than for wallpapers!
>
>  The KDE spin was at 692 MiB for Fedora 15 and our plan is to add Kamoso
>  (webcam application, newly released and reviewed) and at least one backup
>  solution for Fedora 16. It all has to fit into 700 MiB. That means, we're
>  basically already out of space. We may have to scale back our plans due to
>  the usual package size growth we've been seeing at each release anyway,
>  it'd
>  be sad if wallpapers were the issue.
>
>  I realize and understand that a good-looking default wallpaper is a very
>  important part of the user experience. I just don't think we need 4 of them
>  installed by default. Users can easily replace their wallpaper anyway. I
>  think it'd be a much better idea to have one beautiful default wallpaper
>  and
>  focus on polishing that, also because schedules are tight (as you have
>  noticed in previous release cycles).
>
>         Kevin Kofler
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  design-team mailing list
>  design-team(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team 


Why don't you try to cut down on some useless software instead? a lot of
un-needed software is installed by default, eg. sendmail. you could simply
don't install sendmail by default and save 1.5MB! And I'm sure there is more
useless software you can remove to make some space for wallpapers and other
*useful* software.
-- 
-Elad.

[Kevin Kofler]

Elad wrote:
>  Why don't you try to cut down on some useless software instead?
We are already removing everything that's truly useless.

>  a lot of un-needed software is installed by default, eg. sendmail.
> you
>  could simply don't install sendmail by default and save 1.5MB! 
Sendmail is not entirely useless:
* It's used to e-mail logs or other notifications to root's local mailbox 
(which can be read either by firing up KMail as root and configuring it for 
a local mailbox, or (better solution) by setting up an alias to forward the 
mail to a regular local user, firing up KMail as that user and configuring 
it for a local mailbox, which can coexist with one or more POP3 and/or IMAP 
mailboxes, by the way).
* It can be used by KMail to send mail without an SMTP server (which still 
does work in some environments, though you may get filtered by ISP outbound 
port blocking, residential IP blacklists etc.).
so these are at least 2 contexts in which sendmail together with KMail can 
be useful.

In addition, the relevant size for live image size constraints is the xz-
compressed size, not the uncompressed size. Since RPMs are compressed with 
the same technology (xz) as the live images, the package size is a good 
indicator. The sendmail package is only 683 KiB. Wallpapers, on the other 
hand, are already compressed (as PNGs or JPGs) and don't really compress any 
further. So, to compensate for 6 MiB of extra wallpapers, we would need to 
find 10 packages of the size of sendmail and sacrifice them, sendmail alone 
is hardly going to make a difference.

>  And I'm sure there is more useless software you can remove to
> make some
>  space for wallpapers and other *useful* software. 
I'm not convinced. We already worked hard on trimming useless stuff, 
especially the one which really matters size-wise.

        Kevin Kofler

[Martin Sourada]

Hi Kevin,

On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 02:25:49 +0200 
Kevin Kofler wrote:
>  > And I'm sure there is more useless software you can remove
> to make
>  > some space for wallpapers and other *useful* software.
>  
>  I'm not convinced. We already worked hard on trimming useless stuff, 
>  especially the one which really matters size-wise.
>   
I perfectly understand your concerns, still if we manage to do the four
wallpapers, I'd really like to see them in. Maybe you could start
targeting a bigger device than CD? I highly doubt KDE would even run
anywhere where there isn't support for either booting from USB
stick or DVD. We have more lightweight spins (like XFCE or LXDE) for
these ancient PCs. At one point you will have to make that decision --
for better or worse, software is getting bigger with time and there'll
come a time where CD wouldn't be big enough to have on it a useful set
of KDE apps.

Just food for thought ;-)

Martin

[Jaroslav Reznik]

On Saturday, June 11, 2011 08:52:06 AM Martin Sourada wrote:
>  Hi Kevin,
>  
>  On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 02:25:49 +0200
>  
>  Kevin Kofler wrote:
>  > > And I'm sure there is more useless software you can remove to make
>  > > some space for wallpapers and other *useful* software.
>  > 
>  > I'm not convinced. We already worked hard on trimming useless stuff,
>  > especially the one which really matters size-wise.
>  
>  I perfectly understand your concerns, still if we manage to do the four
>  wallpapers, I'd really like to see them in. Maybe you could start
>  targeting a bigger device than CD? I highly doubt KDE would even run
>  anywhere where there isn't support for either booting from USB
>  stick or DVD. We have more lightweight spins (like XFCE or LXDE) for
>  these ancient PCs. At one point you will have to make that decision --
>  for better or worse, software is getting bigger with time and there'll
>  come a time where CD wouldn't be big enough to have on it a useful set
>  of KDE apps. 
Yep,
we already have 2 gig version. So it still applies what I proposed - single main 
wp for our default smaller spin (and for kdm/ksplash), 4 wps for the bigger one.

R.

>  Just food for thought ;-)
>  
>  Martin 
-- 
Jaroslav Řezník <jreznik(a)redhat.com&gt;
Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: [phone]
Mobile: [phone]
Red Hat, Inc.                               http://cz.redhat.com/

[Jaroslav Reznik]

On Tuesday, June 07, 2011 11:45:40 PM Máirín Duffy wrote:
>  Hi everyone,
>  
>  The Fedora design team had a meeting today for Fedora 16 planning and
>  we'd like to try for a four-wallpaper pack for Fedora 16. (We can
>  provide a slideshow XML file for GNOME, if KDE / XFCE / LXDE support
>  something like slideshows let us know and we can try to provide it).
>  
>  We wanted to provide a heads up so that you could account for the space
>  early on in the cycle if you wanted all of the wallpapers for your spin;
>  in the past when we've done a slideshow set it has caused last-minute
>  space issues: we'd very much like to avoid that.
>  
>  Based on previous wallpapers and the high resolution we are targeting,
>  6-8 MB is probably a good guesstimate of the maximum amount of space we
>  might need. In the end, we may need to pull back and focus on really
>  polishing only one of the wallpapers; as the release progresses we can
>  keep you updated on what to expect.
>  
>  If you're interested in following the artwork progress, we have an
>  artboard here: http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/ 
Hi,
yep, we have a support for slideshow in Plasma. But it depends if it's just 
slideshow or time based wp change as we saw before in Gnome. I was thinking 
about implemnting it to Plasma but after aseigo's review of the old one Gnome 
XML file I decided better not do it. Even aseigo is still waiting for 
implementation :)

Just one thing - as Kevin pointed out - the extended slideshow wps should be in 
separate subpackage and the default package should be the single one due to live 
image space constraints. Especially for Plasma spin.

Another important thing is - we need some simple designs. I really like Fedora 
designs as these aren't usually the boring abstract something like in other 
distros but today with Gnome Shell, the Plasma Netbook brother (I'm surprised 
how similar these two are, very nice for touchable netbooks) - the desktop now 
serves for activities (both Shell and Plasma ones). The Plasma Active is going 
to be even more using the desktop... So this is something you, as Design team 
should consider. But still I hope we can have amazing designs, not just colorful 
spits :) 

Thanks
Jaroslav

>  Is this okay?
>  
>  Thanks,
>  ~m
>  
>  (As a favor to me, I'd appreciate it very much if you could keep me on
>  the CC of replies :) )
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  kde mailing list
>  kde(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde
>  New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org 
-- 
Jaroslav Řezník <jreznik(a)redhat.com&gt;
Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: [phone]
Mobile: [phone]
Red Hat, Inc.                               http://cz.redhat.com/

[María Leandro]

Hola people!


Best case scenario: We have a light saber and we use it to make developers,
packagers and everyone to put 4 awesome wallpapers in a 10gb extended (with
some magic) DVD

Real case scenario: We have (and will have in the next couple of weeks) a
group of impressive wallpapers with Verne's books as inspiration.

Worst case scenario: We build this transition and a group of verne's
wallpapers (rather transition or just a wallpapers set) and spread it to the
world.

----

Why?

This is one of the oportunities that we need to take. We have all team
working in several ideas and with a huge motivation to "send a message" with
our artwork. I think that instead say *no* we should keep providing ideas to
use all the artwork that we are (and will be) producing for the next month.

So... anyone has more ideas on how implement this great wallpapers?






-- 
tatica

[Máirín Duffy]

On Wed, 2011-06-08 at 11:51 +0000, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
>  yep, we have a support for slideshow in Plasma. But it depends if
> it's just 
>  slideshow or time based wp change as we saw before in Gnome. I was thinking 
>  about implemnting it to Plasma but after aseigo's review of the old one Gnome 
>  XML file I decided better not do it. Even aseigo is still waiting for 
>  implementation :) 
We were thinking it would just be a simple slideshow. No time-based
transition effects. 

>  Just one thing - as Kevin pointed out - the extended slideshow wps
> should be in 
>  separate subpackage and the default package should be the single one due to live 
>  image space constraints. Especially for Plasma spin. 
Okay, shipping four wallpapers by default was not a problem in earlier
Fedoras when we've done this before (at least on the desktop spin.) We
did ship the four wallpapers, which were the same wallpaper with
different colorations. Fedora 8 and Fedora 9 are some examples of this.
We didn't know it would be a problem if we gave advance notice; it seems
even with advance notice it's a problem, so I guess we have no choice -
one wallpaper it is then.

>  Another important thing is - we need some simple designs. I really
> like Fedora 
>  designs as these aren't usually the boring abstract something like in other 
>  distros but today with Gnome Shell, the Plasma Netbook brother (I'm surprised 
>  how similar these two are, very nice for touchable netbooks) - the desktop now 
>  serves for activities (both Shell and Plasma ones). The Plasma Active is going 
>  to be even more using the desktop... So this is something you, as Design team 
>  should consider. But still I hope we can have amazing designs, not just colorful 
>  spits :)  
This is a good point, but this is probably not the appropriate thread to
bring that up. Please start a new thread on the design-team list for
this or you can of course provide artists feedback directly on the
artboard - thanks!  :)

~m

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Wed, Jun 08, 2011 at 17:53:25 -0400,
  Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  
>  Okay, shipping four wallpapers by default was not a problem in earlier
>  Fedoras when we've done this before (at least on the desktop spin.) We
>  did ship the four wallpapers, which were the same wallpaper with
>  different colorations. Fedora 8 and Fedora 9 are some examples of this.
>  We didn't know it would be a problem if we gave advance notice; it seems
>  even with advance notice it's a problem, so I guess we have no choice -
>  one wallpaper it is then. 
Some of the other spins aren't currently that tight on space. So if it is
OK to do it differently on different spins, then maybe many of the
other spins could use the slide show and the space constrained ones
could use a single wallpaper.

[Jaroslav Reznik]

On Wednesday, June 08, 2011 11:53:25 PM Máirín Duffy wrote:
>  On Wed, 2011-06-08 at 11:51 +0000, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
>  > yep, we have a support for slideshow in Plasma. But it depends if it's
>  > just slideshow or time based wp change as we saw before in Gnome. I was
>  > thinking about implemnting it to Plasma but after aseigo's review of the
>  > old one Gnome XML file I decided better not do it. Even aseigo is still
>  > waiting for implementation :)
>  
>  We were thinking it would just be a simple slideshow. No time-based
>  transition effects. 
Ok. This is not a problem to set it up.

>  > Just one thing - as Kevin pointed out - the extended slideshow
> wps should
>  > be in separate subpackage and the default package should be the single
>  > one due to live image space constraints. Especially for Plasma spin.
>  
>  Okay, shipping four wallpapers by default was not a problem in earlier
>  Fedoras when we've done this before (at least on the desktop spin.) We
>  did ship the four wallpapers, which were the same wallpaper with
>  different colorations. Fedora 8 and Fedora 9 are some examples of this.
>  We didn't know it would be a problem if we gave advance notice; it seems
>  even with advance notice it's a problem, so I guess we have no choice -
>  one wallpaper it is then. 
I'm not saying it's a problem. Just the solution should be - to have one 
"master" wallpaper packaged in a standalone subpackage (and probably used for 
GDM/KDM/KSplash) and package the rest slideshow in the another subpackage. Spins 
that have a spare space can ship base one wp package + slides package (even 2G 
Plasma spin!!!). Regular Plasma spin can ship just the base one. And we will see 
- maybe we will have some space available and we could ship all - can't say for 
sure now. But I still prefer a little bit more ship software users are asking us 
to include in live image.

>  > Another important thing is - we need some simple designs. I
> really like
>  > Fedora designs as these aren't usually the boring abstract something
>  > like in other distros but today with Gnome Shell, the Plasma Netbook
>  > brother (I'm surprised how similar these two are, very nice for
>  > touchable netbooks) - the desktop now serves for activities (both Shell
>  > and Plasma ones). The Plasma Active is going to be even more using the
>  > desktop... So this is something you, as Design team should consider. But
>  > still I hope we can have amazing designs, not just colorful spits :)
>  
>  This is a good point, but this is probably not the appropriate thread to
>  bring that up. Please start a new thread on the design-team list for
>  this or you can of course provide artists feedback directly on the
>  artboard - thanks!  :) 
Yeah, I know it wasn't the best place to mix it but it's still somehow related 
to the topics. The base wp could be the simple one for example, slideshow could 
be more artistic like - so probably not the default one even for smaller spins? 
Just and idea.

Jaroslav

>  ~m 
-- 
Jaroslav Řezník <jreznik(a)redhat.com&gt;
Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: [phone]
Mobile: [phone]
Red Hat, Inc.                               http://cz.redhat.com/

[Kevin Kofler]

Máirín Duffy wrote:
>  Okay, shipping four wallpapers by default was not a problem in
> earlier
>  Fedoras when we've done this before (at least on the desktop spin.) We
>  did ship the four wallpapers, which were the same wallpaper with
>  different colorations. Fedora 8 and Fedora 9 are some examples of this. 
FYI, back then, KDE (which was version 3.5 resp. 4.0) did not support 
multiple wallpapers at all, so we had to just pick one for the KDE spin.

These days, the functionality should be there, but space has become the main 
issue.

        Kevin Kofler