Hi folks,
as I said some time ago on list I'll be doing the Design Suite for Fedora 13. Having had some pretty cool discussion with Diana, Mel and Mo in the hackroo... hospitality suite at FUDCon, I've created and uploaded a first build.
It's already based on yesterday's Rawhide, even though it still calls itself Generic 12 - which means it might very well break. It worked for me in a VM, so you might just want to give it a try. It's currently around 900 MB and already using Peter Robinson's modified base package set, but we'll see if we can fit it into CD-size for the final release.
Actually, I was trying to upload it somewhere quickly and ended up using Wuala. You might need to run a java applet to download it immediately, depending on whether my upload has already propagated to all their systems. Peter has already offered to help with hosting, so this is just a very very temporary solution.
Anyway, enough talk, here you go: http://www.wuala.com/sdziallas/fedora
If you've any suggestions concerning which apps to include, to remove or what else to do, just shout! There's still a bit on my list and I'll move ahead and document more things over winter vacation, too.
Happy holidays & testing! --Sebastian
On 12/22/2009 01:01 AM, Sebastian Dziallas wrote:
as I said some time ago on list I'll be doing the Design Suite for Fedora 13. Having had some pretty cool discussion with Diana, Mel and Mo in the hackroo... hospitality suite at FUDCon, I've created and uploaded a first build.
Nice... are available anywhere some notes about the design concepts agreed there? (like select 'best of breed' apps or include as much as possible, restrict to graphics or also go for audio/video, include or not data...)
It's already based on yesterday's Rawhide, even though it still calls itself Generic 12 - which means it might very well break. It worked for me in a VM, so you might just want to give it a try. It's currently around 900 MB and already using Peter Robinson's modified base package set, but we'll see if we can fit it into CD-size for the final release.
I don't think CD size is a realistic target, my suggestion is to aim for 2GB USB sticks (maybe 1.5GB worth of application, leaving some space for live persistence)
Actually, I was trying to upload it somewhere quickly and ended up using Wuala. You might need to run a java applet to download it immediately, depending on whether my upload has already propagated to all their systems. Peter has already offered to help with hosting, so this is just a very very temporary solution.
Anyway, enough talk, here you go: http://www.wuala.com/sdziallas/fedora
If you've any suggestions concerning which apps to include, to remove or what else to do, just shout! There's still a bit on my list and I'll move ahead and document more things over winter vacation, too.
I don't think I will get the time to play with it this year, can you provide the list of packages?
On 12/22/2009 03:36 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 12/22/2009 01:01 AM, Sebastian Dziallas wrote:
as I said some time ago on list I'll be doing the Design Suite for Fedora 13. Having had some pretty cool discussion with Diana, Mel and Mo in the hackroo... hospitality suite at FUDCon,
Hackroom! Hackroom!
(We used the word "hospitality suite" at the front desk because we weren't sure how the hotel would feel about the word "hack," and this became a running joke at FUDCon Toronto.)
I've created and uploaded a first build.
I'd promised to help out a bit with marketing for this, so the first step was to create a page that we can build into this project's home.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite
It's not ready for widespread "USE THIS!" PR yet, and won't be for some time - but we still need a place where folks who want to contribute can go and find out what's going on. So that's what this is right now.
I redirected the old link so edit history would be preserved, and the link from the old [[Design]] page would still work: https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Artwork/ArtTeamProjects/FedoraAr...
Nice... are available anywhere some notes about the design concepts agreed there? (like select 'best of breed' apps or include as much as possible, restrict to graphics or also go for audio/video, include or not data...)
Not that I know of, but I started a section for it with some notes: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Design_concepts
It's already based on yesterday's Rawhide, even though it still calls itself Generic 12 - which means it might very well break. It worked for me in a VM, so you might just want to give it a try. It's currently around 900 MB and already using Peter Robinson's modified base package set, but we'll see if we can fit it into CD-size for the final release.
I don't think CD size is a realistic target, my suggestion is to aim for 2GB USB sticks (maybe 1.5GB worth of application, leaving some space for live persistence)
Yet more documentation stub-places for after these decisions have been made: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Technical_requirements
I don't think I will get the time to play with it this year, can you provide the list of packages?
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Packages
...and of course, as for everything else we work on in Fedora, we need a section for... https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#How_to_contribute
I'm not entirely sure what the different steps to making a Remix/Spin are (this may be a good thing to write up a tutorial for, and the more we document and think out loud as we do this, the easier writing that tutorial will be) but if we know those steps, it seems to me that the first thing to do would be to fill them in on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Upcoming_milestones so we know how close we are to completion at any given point in time.
--Mel
On 12/22/2009 11:22 AM, Mel Chua wrote:
I'd promised to help out a bit with marketing for this, so the first step was to create a page that we can build into this project's home.
You did a nice and useful work in there.
I'm not entirely sure what the different steps to making a Remix/Spin are (this may be a good thing to write up a tutorial for, and the more we document and think out loud as we do this, the easier writing that tutorial will be) but if we know those steps, it seems to me that the first thing to do would be to fill them in on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Upcoming_milestones so we know how close we are to completion at any given point in time.
I am not an expert in this either but, if I understand correctly, the most of the job is to create a kickstart file with a good selection of packages. We do a few experimental builds to see if is not horribly broken and then try to "sell" it to the build system so it is taken care of automatically: http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/
Merging responses for Nicu's last two replies...
I am not an expert in this either but, if I understand correctly, the most of the job is to create a kickstart file with a good selection of packages. We do a few experimental builds to see if is not horribly broken and then try to "sell" it to the build system so it is taken care of automatically: http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/
Looking again at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Upcoming_milestones, we should probably set a date by which everything that wants to be considered for inclusion in the kickstart file to be packaged, and then another to freeze the kickstart's package list (after testing those packages).
It looks like the Design Studio will bring up some interesting questions while it's being made - things like "what's the line between content and software?" (do brushes count, etc) and how should the various things (whatever they are) we want be delivered via the Design Suite? (packages? webpages? packages of bookmarks to webpages? packages of sampe content?) So it's a good idea to leave plenty of time for those conversations and questions to be resolved.
I think before significant marketing we should clarify the vision and the target, go beyond the generic "professional designers". I bet even us, inside the Design Team, have various expectations from a
"perfect" spin.
Yep. My current working definition for open source marketing is that it's much more than "just" PR - it's "the community-driven process responsible for enabling users to identify, anticipate, and satisfy their own requirements sustainably[0]" so the "identify" part is what I'm thinking about right now, and what I'm here in Design to learn. ;)
/me drops back to watch the process of designers designing something for themselves. Yay, meta!
--Mel
[0] this is a modification of the Chartered Institute of Marketing's definition of marketing, http://www.cim.co.uk/resources/understandingmarket/definitionmkting.aspx, which is "the management process responsible for identifying, anticipating and satisfying customer requirements profitably."
On 12/22/2009 12:29 PM, Mel Chua wrote:
Looking again at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Upcoming_milestones, we should probably set a date by which everything that wants to be considered for inclusion in the kickstart file to be packaged, and then another to freeze the kickstart's package list (after testing those packages).
I strongly believe in the "release early, release often" process, so the first version of the spin does not have to be perfect, it can be just the Desktop Spin with a handful of applications added. Then we can add/remove/refine stuff. And I don't think we will package stuff solely for this spin, the packages will go in the large Fedora repository and we will make a selection from there.
Anyway, we can't have a list of packages before we don't know exactly which type of packages we want to have.
It looks like the Design Studio will bring up some interesting questions while it's being made - things like "what's the line between content and software?" (do brushes count, etc) and how should the various things (whatever they are) we want be delivered via the Design Suite? (packages? webpages? packages of bookmarks to webpages? packages of sampe content?) So it's a good idea to leave plenty of time for those conversations and questions to be resolved.
Not only sample content, but also stock: we have already packaged clipart images from openclipart.org (the package is very old but this is a different and long story), in a similar way we can add stock photography or stock sounds (only the size is a limit - it may be replaced with bookmarks for websites).
Yep. My current working definition for open source marketing is that it's much more than "just" PR - it's "the community-driven process responsible for enabling users to identify, anticipate, and satisfy their own requirements sustainably[0]" so the "identify" part is what I'm thinking about right now, and what I'm here in Design to learn. ;)
/me drops back to watch the process of designers designing something for themselves. Yay, meta!
Honestly, if I would be designing a spin for myself, the result would be total chaos :D If you look at my desk, everything look like a mess.
On 12/22/2009 11:22 AM, Mel Chua wrote:
I'd promised to help out a bit with marketing for this, so the first step was to create a page that we can build into this project's home.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite
It's not ready for widespread "USE THIS!" PR yet, and won't be for some time - but we still need a place where folks who want to contribute can go and find out what's going on. So that's what this is right now.
I think before significant marketing we should clarify the vision and the target, go beyond the generic "professional designers". I bet even us, inside the Design Team, have various expectations from a "perfect" spin.
On Tue, 2009-12-22 at 12:08 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 12/22/2009 11:22 AM, Mel Chua wrote:
I'd promised to help out a bit with marketing for this, so the first step was to create a page that we can build into this project's home.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite
It's not ready for widespread "USE THIS!" PR yet, and won't be for some time - but we still need a place where folks who want to contribute can go and find out what's going on. So that's what this is right now.
I think before significant marketing we should clarify the vision and the target, go beyond the generic "professional designers". I bet even us, inside the Design Team, have various expectations from a "perfect" spin.
To throw something in: * target 1: showcase of design team work (perhaps customise the looks of the spin, add more wallpapers, include echo icons?) * target 2: typesetting -- fonts, inkscape, TeX, color profiles are IMHO a must * target 3: general art/design work -- gimp, inkscape, color profiles, brushes, perhaps our echo-artist helper scripts, ... * target 4: video editing -- something for screencasting, something to grab raw video from video camera, pitivi or kino or something like that for cutting, perhaps an app for sound editing/recording, include dirac/schrodinger codec (I think theora, vorbis, flac, etc. are already in), perhaps some app for subtitling (I'm maintaining subtitleeditor myself, but there are more) * target 5: desktop publishing -- OpenOffice.org + templates, scribus
And of course customised bookmarks.
Martin
On 12/22/2009 01:15 PM, Martin Sourada wrote:
To throw something in: * target 1: showcase of design team work (perhaps customise the looks of the spin, add more wallpapers, include echo icons?)
I don't like this target, I think we should go beyond "showing of" into something we would use ourselves.
* target 2: typesetting -- fonts, inkscape, TeX, color profiles are IMHO a must * target 3: general art/design work -- gimp, inkscape, color profiles, brushes, perhaps our echo-artist helper scripts, ... * target 4: video editing -- something for screencasting, something to grab raw video from video camera, pitivi or kino or something like that for cutting, perhaps an app for sound editing/recording, include dirac/schrodinger codec (I think theora, vorbis, flac, etc. are already in), perhaps some app for subtitling (I'm maintaining subtitleeditor myself, but there are more) * target 5: desktop publishing -- OpenOffice.org + templates, scribus
My option would be for a combination of 2-5 and address a large target of creative uses. And I think those targets are linked deeply, here are a couple of examples: - a couple of days ago I was editing a video. I discovered I *need* image editing applications (I used Inkscape, but GIMP would have been equally useful) since I had to add a logo and a nice opening screen; - for serious desktop publishing you don't use only the final application, you will usually have to process photos (GIMP) and create original art (Inkscape).
On Tue, 2009-12-22 at 14:44 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 12/22/2009 01:15 PM, Martin Sourada wrote:
To throw something in: * target 1: showcase of design team work (perhaps customise the looks of the spin, add more wallpapers, include echo icons?)
I don't like this target, I think we should go beyond "showing of" into something we would use ourselves.
* target 2: typesetting -- fonts, inkscape, TeX, color profiles are IMHO a must * target 3: general art/design work -- gimp, inkscape, color profiles, brushes, perhaps our echo-artist helper scripts, ... * target 4: video editing -- something for screencasting, something to grab raw video from video camera, pitivi or kino or something like that for cutting, perhaps an app for sound editing/recording, include dirac/schrodinger codec (I think theora, vorbis, flac, etc. are already in), perhaps some app for subtitling (I'm maintaining subtitleeditor myself, but there are more) * target 5: desktop publishing -- OpenOffice.org + templates, scribusMy option would be for a combination of 2-5 and address a large target of creative uses. And I think those targets are linked deeply, here are a couple of examples:
- a couple of days ago I was editing a video. I discovered I *need*
image editing applications (I used Inkscape, but GIMP would have been equally useful) since I had to add a logo and a nice opening screen;
- for serious desktop publishing you don't use only the final
application, you will usually have to process photos (GIMP) and create original art (Inkscape).
Good points. Actually the target 1 was meant rather as complementary to the spin -- create a spin for designers but also include some work we have done ourselves and are proud of it and tune the look'n'feel of the spin ;-) The main purpose should be combination of 2-5 targets, I was merely listing some (partly overlapping) subsets of the whole spin I think that would be worth optimizing it for (we won't be probably marketing for all creative users at once but for Joe who does web design, for Jane who likes to do home videos, for Pete who is professional typesetter, ...). Although, looking back through the list, probably desktop publishing and typesetting should be merged as one subset...
Martin
On 12/22/2009 03:12 PM, Martin Sourada wrote:
On 12/22/2009 01:15 PM, Martin Sourada wrote:
To throw something in: * target 1: showcase of design team work (perhaps customise the looks of the spin, add more wallpapers, include echo icons?)
Good points. Actually the target 1 was meant rather as complementary to the spin -- create a spin for designers but also include some work we have done ourselves and are proud of it and tune the look'n'feel of the spin ;-)
Actually, I had the opportunity to think a bit about this part: I think is a good idea to NOT customise the look of the spin. Why? Because we show this way we care about the "normal" spins being the best we can do, don't relegate them to a second place and focus the attention on our own "toy".
Of course, in addition to that we can have a ton of additional themes we like to play with.
On Tue, 2009-12-22 at 16:15 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 12/22/2009 03:12 PM, Martin Sourada wrote:
On 12/22/2009 01:15 PM, Martin Sourada wrote:
To throw something in: * target 1: showcase of design team work (perhaps customise the looks of the spin, add more wallpapers, include echo icons?)
Good points. Actually the target 1 was meant rather as complementary to the spin -- create a spin for designers but also include some work we have done ourselves and are proud of it and tune the look'n'feel of the spin ;-)
Actually, I had the opportunity to think a bit about this part: I think is a good idea to NOT customise the look of the spin. Why? Because we show this way we care about the "normal" spins being the best we can do, don't relegate them to a second place and focus the attention on our own "toy".
Well, that's a good reason, however the "normal" spins' (especially the desktop spin) owners do not ask for our opinion in terms of design other than wallpaper. Effectively if we want to polish fedora look we need to do it in our spin first and then bug the other spin owners to implement it as well... Basically the design spin could (among other things) serve as a place to look for when you'd like to see a preview of fedora future look, or maybe a better phrase would be "a preview of what the design team would like fedora to look like".
Of course, in addition to that we can have a ton of additional themes we like to play with.
Yup, that's a good suggestion.
Martin
Martin Sourada wrote:
And of course customised bookmarks.
Anybody up for collecting a number of links and putting them in the wiki (the resources category has apparently already some nice links) and an appropriate file? https://fedorahosted.org/education/browser/bookmarks/default-bookmarks.html shows how such a file may look like.
I'd be happy to help with packaging & reviewing.
--Sebastian
Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 12/22/2009 01:01 AM, Sebastian Dziallas wrote:
Sorry for being so calm over the holidays - I was planning to get all of this done much earlier but got somehow stuck in the middle.
as I said some time ago on list I'll be doing the Design Suite for Fedora 13. Having had some pretty cool discussion with Diana, Mel and Mo in the hackroo... hospitality suite at FUDCon, I've created and uploaded a first build.
Nice... are available anywhere some notes about the design concepts agreed there? (like select 'best of breed' apps or include as much as possible, restrict to graphics or also go for audio/video, include or not data...)
I think (if I recall correctly) we were taking the "what would help designers - so also people on the design team or those who want to get involved" approach. Admittedly, that's a pretty broad one and I think we mentioned that having sample content and introductions either somewhere on the spin or on a bookmarked page would be good.
It's already based on yesterday's Rawhide, even though it still calls itself Generic 12 - which means it might very well break. It worked for me in a VM, so you might just want to give it a try. It's currently around 900 MB and already using Peter Robinson's modified base package set, but we'll see if we can fit it into CD-size for the final release.
I don't think CD size is a realistic target, my suggestion is to aim for 2GB USB sticks (maybe 1.5GB worth of application, leaving some space for live persistence)
Well, it depends on what we end up with. For example OpenOffice Impress is a *major* space consumer. Basically, it means that we're using about 150 MB for a single application. Excluding that one would bring us down to 750 MB, which isn't too far from CD-size. However, since we're just starting to talk about it, I guess we'll just see what comes close.
In the end, it might well be a 2 GB target - I don't know, yet.
Actually, I was trying to upload it somewhere quickly and ended up using Wuala. You might need to run a java applet to download it immediately, depending on whether my upload has already propagated to all their systems. Peter has already offered to help with hosting, so this is just a very very temporary solution.
Anyway, enough talk, here you go: http://www.wuala.com/sdziallas/fedora
If you've any suggestions concerning which apps to include, to remove or what else to do, just shout! There's still a bit on my list and I'll move ahead and document more things over winter vacation, too.
I don't think I will get the time to play with it this year, can you provide the list of packages?
Finally, I've thrown something in the wiki - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Packages has all the details. I didn't include a real rationale for now, so feel free to rant! ;)
Aside from that, the page looks really cool (thanks Mel!) - if anybody has package suggestions or further ideas, just add them there.
Cheers & Happy New Year! --Sebastian
Maybe you could make the full build and a netinstall? I'm fine with a file that big, but I know many people don't have DVD-ROM's, so that could help as well.
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Sebastian Dziallas sebastian@when.comwrote:
Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 12/22/2009 01:01 AM, Sebastian Dziallas wrote:
Sorry for being so calm over the holidays - I was planning to get all of this done much earlier but got somehow stuck in the middle.
as I said some time ago on list I'll be doing the Design Suite for Fedora 13. Having had some pretty cool discussion with Diana, Mel and Mo in the hackroo... hospitality suite at FUDCon, I've created and uploaded a first build.
Nice... are available anywhere some notes about the design concepts agreed there? (like select 'best of breed' apps or include as much as possible, restrict to graphics or also go for audio/video, include or not data...)
I think (if I recall correctly) we were taking the "what would help designers - so also people on the design team or those who want to get involved" approach. Admittedly, that's a pretty broad one and I think we mentioned that having sample content and introductions either somewhere on the spin or on a bookmarked page would be good.
It's already based on yesterday's Rawhide, even though it still calls itself Generic 12 - which means it might very well break. It worked for me in a VM, so you might just want to give it a try. It's currently around 900 MB and already using Peter Robinson's modified base package set, but we'll see if we can fit it into CD-size for the final release.
I don't think CD size is a realistic target, my suggestion is to aim for 2GB USB sticks (maybe 1.5GB worth of application, leaving some space for live persistence)
Well, it depends on what we end up with. For example OpenOffice Impress is a *major* space consumer. Basically, it means that we're using about 150 MB for a single application. Excluding that one would bring us down to 750 MB, which isn't too far from CD-size. However, since we're just starting to talk about it, I guess we'll just see what comes close.
In the end, it might well be a 2 GB target - I don't know, yet.
Actually, I was trying to upload it somewhere quickly and ended up using Wuala. You might need to run a java applet to download it immediately, depending on whether my upload has already propagated to all their systems. Peter has already offered to help with hosting, so this is just a very very temporary solution.
Anyway, enough talk, here you go: http://www.wuala.com/sdziallas/fedora
If you've any suggestions concerning which apps to include, to remove or what else to do, just shout! There's still a bit on my list and I'll move ahead and document more things over winter vacation, too.
I don't think I will get the time to play with it this year, can you provide the list of packages?
Finally, I've thrown something in the wiki - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Packages has all the details. I didn't include a real rationale for now, so feel free to rant! ;)
Aside from that, the page looks really cool (thanks Mel!) - if anybody has package suggestions or further ideas, just add them there.
Cheers & Happy New Year! --Sebastian _______________________________________________ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
On 12/31/2009 03:30 AM, Brad Fanella wrote:
Maybe you could make the full build and a netinstall? I'm fine with a file that big, but I know many people don't have DVD-ROM's, so that could help as well.
There is no need for a dedicated netinstall, all packages will be available in the repository, you can use the normal netinstall and add them from there. If you don't have a DVD, then probably is easier to put the image on an USB stick.
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