Seems my effort to deduplicate @gnome-desktop and @fedora-workstation
got reverted again, because it breaks upgrades from F23 -> F24 via dnf
when @gnome-desktop is not installed, which is the expected and default
case. dnf wants to remove all of GNOME because it's no longer present
in @fedora-workstation, and @gnome-desktop is not already installed.
I don't think we want to continue to maintain these groups separately,
it leads to many "bugs" (unexpected differences) between the two
groups, with developers accidentally editing one but not the other. So:
does anyone have any suggestions to avoid this problem?
The best solution I could come up with is to simply tell users to 'sudo
dnf install @gnome-desktop' before upgrading with dnf, and list this on
the known problems wiki page. Since gnome-software is now our default
and expected method for upgrading Fedora Workstation, I think it's OK
for there to be some hiccups when upgrading with dnf, but it would
still be really nice to have some way to handle this automatically...
could we somehow make the one group depend on the other, for instance?
How does gnome-software handle this issue?
A few months ago we discussed my proposal to disable PulseAudio flat
volumes, as it results in applications setting system volume to 100%,
which at best is loud and annoying, and at worst is bad for your ears
if you're using headphones; I've had to train myself to avoid this
issue by adjusting my headphones' volume with a hardware slider and
always leaving the OS volume at 100%, which is a terrible user
When last discussed, the working group agreed to ask the PulseAudio
developers about the issue, without requiring any changes. Since then,
the developers agreed on a solution to fix this problem without
disabling flat volumes, but the solution has not been implemented yet.
I'm concerned it will not be implemented in time for F24. Due to the
severity of the issue, I propose we require flat volumes to be
temporarily disabled in Fedora 24 and future Fedora releases until the
issue has been fixed.
We were planning to vote on this at the working group meeting today,
but ran out of time, so working group members should vote here. I am
This issue is tracked here:
First and foremost, this is going to be a long email, so if you don't
have time, save it for another day. This is not going to be a rant, I've
posted enough of those. I'm beginning to wonder whether I'm the cause of
the negative perceptions blind people have about linux accessibility. I
switched to linux 5 years ago in august of 2011, and ever since then
I've been advocating for it's use. I seem to have gotten very little in
the way of interest. I'm beginning to wonder if it's my attitude that's
driving people away. I'm blind, and so I depend on assistive software to
use my computer. Because of that, I take a harsh view of products or
software that is not designed to be accessible, at least to some degree.
You'll often find me on irc ranting about some manufacturer or other
because they didn't design their ... oh, coffee maker, microwave, smart
phone, etc to be usable by a blind person. I used to think I had good
reason for this, because the blase answer I'd get from companies when I
asked why they didn't design their products for use by the blind were
usually something like "meh, most of our consumers (they love that word)
can see, so it's just not worth the effort." Nothing gets me on my soap
box faster. It's as if you're saying to me"there aren't enough of you,
so deal. We're sorry you're blind, but go to your local government
agency for a special device." It's what drew me to linux. An open source
operating system that anyone could improve. Anyone meaning me. Wonderful
idea. And yet the attitude is all over the place hear. Sighted
developers who make applications tend to have similar responses,
although instead of "we don't care" it's "we don't know how the
accessibility stack works" This is sometimes followed by implications
that windows or apple is so much easier, but I'll skip that whole rant.
That also gets me on my soap box. The urge to improve the software to
make it accessible conflicts with my very strong one to yell at them for
not understanding the basic fact. To whit, I need accessibility. If I
don't have it, I can't use their program, period. I've lost my temper a
few times on this list and on others because I'll eventually get to a
point where I just can't hold it back anymore. Usually this comes after
a long stint of bug filing, or listening to the "accessibility
developers are limited" reasons for why bugs linger. I'll touch on that
later. That's not how I should be. I need help from people who, although
you guys fight occasionally (I've seen some heated ones hear) you manage
to get along. I have trouble with that. I became a member of fedora
because you guys care about free as in freedom software, and you really
care about accessibility, something not all linux communities do care
about. I came because a lot of the gnome developers are hear, and I want
to make gnome as accessible a desktop as I can. This is where the
limited accessibility resources come in. I'm well aware of that. It's
why I took on filing bugs for the gnome, mate and cinnamon desktops, to
try and help. But to be blunt, I'm utterly sick of hearing the old "we
don't understand the accessibility stack" reason to simply let bugs
linger. I want to fix it. But the right way, instead of ranting which is
my first urge, because that accomplishes nothing. What is hard about the
atk/at-spi stack? Is it complex? Is it lack of documentation? My goals
for linux are to make it better. I've heard things like "it will take a
big influx of money from some company to make any real progress in linux
a11y." I flat out do not believe it. It may help, but it's not critical.
Plus, the idea of having to tell a company reasons why they should care
about accessibility turns my stomach. They shouldn't need an incentive,
they should simply do it because people need it. I need help. I need
some ideas on how to make developers want to improve
accessibility,rather than making them feel obligated to fix them, which
I understand it usually disinclines them to do much of anything. I may
have to get over my "you have to make your thing accessible" attitude,
which is part of what I need help with. I do think products should be
made accessible, but saber rattling (which is what most of the blind
organizations like to do) has short term results but often makes
developers not want to help. "They'll just sue me if I don't make it
accessible, so why should I bother" is another response, although blind
organizations focus nearly exclusively on windows and apple, so a linux
developer has never said this. I seem to have the right ideas, making
linux better, but I'm wondering if I'm going about it the wrong way. I'm
not in the slightest bit interested in windows or apple, my focus is
strictly on linux accessibility, although that doesn't mean I'm hostile
to windows developers either. I try to be curteous, only slipping up if
we get into a "my OS is better than yours" fight, which thankfully is
rare. I seem to be fighting an unwinnable battle. I want more
accessibility developers. I want community help. People who don't need
orca or magnification using it every once in a while to navigate the
apps they use, which might be different than the ones I use, to fix
accessibility problems. I want more accessibility developers not because
the ones we have aren't good (they're amazing) but because there's just
too much that needs to be done for them to handle it all. And yet we go
back to the incentive thing. "why should I care about linux when people
use windows or mac. I'll focus on that" "no one cares about open source
it's all about the money" "I'm not blind so I don't need it" Nothing
pushes my buttons faster than those kinds of comments, although the I
don't need it comment isn't too bad. I can't think like a business
person. I think in terms of how usable a piece of software or hardware
is. Not in profit margins, market share, public relations, etc so the
very idea of trying to convince someone to care about something that is
absolutely essential to me is ... I can't process it. Google is one
example. I'll shorten the whole chrome rant, but it's a prime example.
Here's a company that makes it's money off of linux and open source.
This company is saying "yeah we really should make a native atk and
at-spi interface in chrome so orca can navigate it, but that's just too
much work, so hear. Install our chromevox addon which, by the way only
works with our special text to speech voice to navigate the web." It
goes back to the idea that blind people can't use the same software as
everyone else. Back in the eighties and nineties this was the thing to
do. You're blind, you need a several thousand dollar device to do basic
things like use a calculator, make notes, keep a calendar, etc. Now for
the most part we can use the same software other people use. Which is
why I have the firm belief that an application should be usable with
whatever screen reader the user has set up, with their voice settings.
The idea of having to install an addon just to be able to use an
application just doesn't sit well with me. This would be midigated
somewhat if those apps that did this would autodetect when accessibility
is enabled on whatever platform you're on and autoinstall it, but they
don't. My whole thing against chrome isn't because it's nonfree software
(although I don't like that much) but because of the addon thing. For
some reason, addons that improve accessibility are completely ok, but
having to install one in order to use something isn't. Is that wrong? Am
I the cause of all the "linux isn't accessible" stuff I hear parroted by
the blind people who don't use it that I come into contact with? I had a
very near miss with windows 10 this past december. I became so
discouraged by the amount of work I have to do to keep linux
accessibility working that I nearly switched. Fortunately linux is just
... it's the community, as well as the amount of stuff I can do with it
for free and all of it open source that kept me hear. So I'm determined
to make a new start. What can I do better? Is my passion for linux
wrong? I seem to get into fights with windows or apple users a lot, and
somehow they happen out of the blue. One minute I mention casually that
I use linux, and the next i'm defending linux against attack. They
usually end with me throwing down the gauntlet and thinking in my head
at least "fine! I'll show you. I'll make linux more accessible than your
apple and prove to you that open source is usable and viable." I'm so
confused I don't know whether that's the right way to handle things or
not. It's why I've been kind of silent in the fedora community lately.
My passion hasn't dimmed, but I've been trying to avoid getting into
situations where I'll yell at well meaning people. I'll close with this.
I need as much help as you guys can give me to be a better community
member. Am I asking too much when I ask gnome developers, or application
developers for that matter to use a screen reader or magnifier with
their application before release to catch accessibility bugs? It seems
reasonable to me, but maybe I'm off? And to mathias as well. I sincerely
apologize for my tone in that last email. I was at one of my
discouragement points,where the amount of work seemed overwhelming. It's
why I'm asking for help.
Thanks for reading
In our meeting today we agreed that having testable primary selection
and startup notification mechanisms (testable != bug-free) for Alpha
would be part of determining whether Wayland could be switched to
default in F24.
However, there are a couple other items that need addressing. Which
of these should also block that decision? (Input is helpful, but note
the WG needs to make a decision on these points.)
* Tablet support and protocols
(I take it this is "~equivalent set to what we handle now in GNOME")
* Input methods
(Needs a fix for positioning the chooser apparently?)
* On screen keyboard
(This seems on a good trajectory from what Matthias said, but
doesn't hurt to include.)
* Accessibility features
(Michael Catanzaro mentioned a set of these taken from
However, the outlook seems not good, and IMHO we need a better story
for a11y users.)
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com
I'm relatively conversant in the background behind Wayland, and I
understand everything under <https://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html>
However, beyond sites like Phoronix, this doesn't make for very good
talking points. I'd like to focus on things on tangible,
user-visible benefits that Wayland will offer on F24 or F25.
I'm aware of:
* Better HiDPI support for multiple monitors.
* Maybe better multi-monitor support overall?
* Sheer-free video playback
* Enables better sandboxing or xdg-apps (although I don't know the
implementation details here)
Is the above correct? What else do we have?
Fedora Project Leader
We are working toward enabling the GNOME desktop on Wayland as the
default for the Fedora Workstation project. The question is: What
features do we have to complete in order to make this switch? Everyone
seems to have their own ideas of what is required, and a systematic
approach is needed to organize the effort.
Over the years, many features have been developed for the traditional
X11-based GNOME desktop, and we are bringing these features over to the
Wayland-based version. Quite a few of these features have already been
implemented for the Wayland-based desktop and we already have highly
functional desktop experience that everyone can use, but it is not yet
complete. In order for us to enable it by default we need to both
implement the missing features and fix the bugs in features that are
For the bugs, we simply need to fix them. However, the situation with
features is more complex. We each have our own list of features that we
believe need to be implemented, but we lack a complete list of all the
missing features and a clear way to determine when we have implemented
enough of them to enable the Wayland-based GNOME desktop by default.
Toward that goal, we are consolidating all of the various feature lists
in the following Fedora wiki page:
We are putting this on the Fedora wiki (instead of a GNOME, Wayland,
kernel, Freedesktop or other wiki) since this is a Fedora decision on
when we feel the Wayland-based GNOME desktop is ready to be the default
for our Fedora Workstation project.
The initial step is to list all features for the Wayland-based GNOME
desktop. Olivier Fourdan, who has been heavily involved in the upstream
Wayland development and also involved in GNOME development activities,
has agreed to maintain this page. If you have ideas for what features
should be included, please add them to the wiki page and discuss them on
What we need for each missing or incomplete feature is a descriptive
name and what stage of development it is in. Links to other pages where
more detailed description of the feature status and implementation
details are also welcomed. For the development stages, there are
kernel, supporting libraries, Wayland protocol, XWayland, mutter, gtk+
and application levels. For example, tablet support is currently
implemented in the kernel and supporting libraries. The protocol has
been proposed and is under discussion. Once the protocol has been
accepted, there will be additional development needed at higher levels.
This feature will remain on the list until it is complete at all levels.
The next step is determining which of these features must be implemented
before we can enable Wayland by default in Fedora Workstation. The plan
is to form a small group of people deeply involved in the Wayland, GNOME
and/or Fedora development to prioritize the list of features and then
draw a line in this prioritized list above which all features must be
complete before we will enable the GNOME desktop on Wayland by default
in our Fedora Workstation project. We can then evaluate this list
during the Fedora 24 development cycle to determine if we are ready to
enable Wayland by default in the alpha, beta and final releases.
## About the thing
I am organizing a (potentially big) user-funding campaign for Free Software
In retrospect, last week I launched the Autonomia, an association of
independent professionals (self-employed, freelancers) that is free, open,
fair and transparent.
This project, in a week, matured so well, received so much positive
feedback, and so many potential customers came, that I felt strongly
motivated to try together an old idea of mine, which is a closely related
Make the users themselves directly (and massively) finance Free Software
(more precisely the GNU/Linux desktop).
## About the numbers
In Brazil, there are 100,000,000 internet users.
Since the current metrics point to 1% of GNU/Linux users, there are,
therefore, 1,000,000 of Free Software users in Brazil.
Even if we reduce this number by 1% again (to be "realistic" as possible),
we still have a number of 10,000 people with full potential to finance the
And this is the focus of the "first phase" of the project: to make 10,000
Brazilians pay for 10 Brazilians to work full-time and every month in Free
In money, each supporter would need to invest a measly USD 0.50 per month
for it to become reality. This way each 1,000 people would raise USD 500
per month, which is enough to pay USD 440 (2 times the minimum wage in
Brazil) for each professional, and still pay the costs of operation and
maintenance of the project itself.
## About the workers and the softwares
Having getting the money, the current strategy would be as follows, in
1. Developer (OSTree).
2. Developer (xdg-app).
3. Developer (GNOME Shell).
4. Developer (GTK).
5. UI Designer (Shell, GTK, Web, Core Apps).
6. Developer (GNOME Web).
7. Developer (GNOME Core Apps - Documents, Music, Videos & Photos).
10. Marketing person.
Who will search, hire and manage these professionals will be the
above-mentioned association, the Autonomia. Because it is an association of
independent professionals, non-profit, where everyone is payed the same
value per hour and where revenues and expenses are public and transparent.
## About me
I'm Diogo Campos, a self-taught web developer, and self-employed, who
lives in Brazil (Florianópolis, Santa Catarina).
I've tried to contribute to Free Software (and Free Culture in general)
several times, but always give up because of my (really) bad financial
situation until now.
Michael Catanzaro probably remember me, for my last contribution attempt (a
bunch of designs for GNOME Web). Perhaps Allan Day remember me too. And if
I'm not mistaken, someone who works in the GNOME Maps lives right next to
me (must confirm, however).
I am first gathering information from the active community to, then, seek
the support of all the specialized media, related communities, and
interested institutions and individuals to do, together, a large, surprise
and massive social event, both on Brazil and outside of it. Probably on day
22, and probably through Patreon. Still working on the details.
I am also already creating textual/informational material for the campaign.
I am thinking in focusing the term "Linux" to take the risk of the campaign
"leaking" to the mainstream media.
Also, a friend which is a Graphic Designer will build graphic material for
the campaign for free.
## About you
What do you think about the project?
What do you think of the positions and the benefited softwares?
Would you help to spread the campaign? If not, why?
Who do you recommend to contact and seek support (internationally)?
I thought about Linux Action Show, Bad Voltage, Brian Lunduke, Fedora
Magazine, People from GNOME Planet and Fedora Planet, GNOME Foundation,
Free Software Foundation, EFF, Richard Stallman, Wogue and Phoronix.
Some more? Or some of these should I not?
If you are Brazilian, who should I contact? I thought only about BR-Linux
until now. Some more? Or someone who should I not?
For now, that's it. I will keep you updated.