[Fedora-desktop-list] changing Gnome panel buttons

[Troy Dawson]

Hello,
Alot of my users keep complaining whenever they get a new account on a box 
that the first thing they do is add the terminal button to their panel.  These 
complaints came from both KDE and Gnome users.

I was able to change the default buttons on KDE by changing 
/usr/share/config/kickerrc
But try as I might, I cannot find the file, or set of files, to change the 
default set of buttons that you get on the gnome-panel.

So, in short, what file, or set of files, do you need to modify, to change the 
default gnome-panel buttons?
By default I mean the buttons that a newly created user would see.

Thanks
Troy Dawson

-- 
__________________________________________________
Troy Dawson  dawson(a)fnal.gov  [phone]
Fermilab  ComputingDivision/CSS  CSI Group
__________________________________________________

[Havoc Pennington]

Hi,

This list is for development of the Fedora desktop, questions about
using it should go to fedora-list instead.

On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 09:15, Troy Dawson wrote:
>  So, in short, what file, or set of files, do you need to modify, to
> change the 
>  default gnome-panel buttons?
>  By default I mean the buttons that a newly created user would see.
>   
You might check out the GNOME sysadmin guide, from memory the URL was
http://www.gnome.org/learn/ 

Havoc

[Troy Dawson]

Thank you for pointing me towards the right list.  This is the third fedora 
list I've tried, and I guess maybe the fourth will be the right one.

Since this is the desktop development list, perhaps you missed my subtleness.

75% of my users want want the terminal server icon on the panels, for both KDE 
and Gnome.  The other 25% don't care.

Or is this mailling list only for developing the eye candy such as backdrops 
and icons?

Troy

Havoc Pennington wrote:
>  Hi,
>  
>  This list is for development of the Fedora desktop, questions about
>  using it should go to fedora-list instead.
>  
>  On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 09:15, Troy Dawson wrote:
>  
> >So, in short, what file, or set of files, do you need to modify, to change the 
> >default gnome-panel buttons?
> >By default I mean the buttons that a newly created user would see.
> >
>  
>  
>  You might check out the GNOME sysadmin guide, from memory the URL was
>  http://www.gnome.org/learn/ 
>  
>  Havoc
>  
>  
>  
>  --
>  Fedora-desktop-list mailing list
>  Fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com
>  http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list 
-- 
__________________________________________________
Troy Dawson  dawson(a)fnal.gov  [phone]
Fermilab  ComputingDivision/CSS  CSI Group
__________________________________________________

[Trae McCombs]

Actually,
I think this brings up a good point, which is, why isn't there a
terminal icon present by default in Fedora?  If, as some people have
stated before on the #fedora channel, that Fedora isn't supposed to be
for Grandma, then why not include a link to a term on the default
desktop?

Trae

PS. I am the one to be blamed for sending him to this list.
PPS. No offense meant to any of the tech savvy Grandma's on this mailing
list. :)

On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 12:40, Troy Dawson wrote:
>  Thank you for pointing me towards the right list.  This is the third
> fedora 
>  list I've tried, and I guess maybe the fourth will be the right one.
>  
>  Since this is the desktop development list, perhaps you missed my subtleness.
>  
>  75% of my users want want the terminal server icon on the panels, for both KDE 
>  and Gnome.  The other 25% don't care.
>  
>  Or is this mailling list only for developing the eye candy such as backdrops 
>  and icons?
>  
>  Troy
>  
>  Havoc Pennington wrote:
>  > Hi,
>  > 
>  > This list is for development of the Fedora desktop, questions about
>  > using it should go to fedora-list instead.
>  > 
>  > On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 09:15, Troy Dawson wrote:
>  > 
>  >>So, in short, what file, or set of files, do you need to modify, to change the 
>  >>default gnome-panel buttons?
>  >>By default I mean the buttons that a newly created user would see.
>  >>
>  > 
>  > 
>  > You might check out the GNOME sysadmin guide, from memory the URL was
>  > http://www.gnome.org/learn/
>  > 
>  > Havoc
>  > 
>  > 
>  > 
>  > --
>  > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list
>  > Fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com
>  > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list

[Havoc Pennington]

On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 12:40, Troy Dawson wrote:
>  Thank you for pointing me towards the right list.  This is the third
> fedora 
>  list I've tried, and I guess maybe the fourth will be the right one.
>   
Apologies, Brent just fixed up the list description on the list server.
It certainly wasn't clear.

>  75% of my users want want the terminal server icon on the panels, for
> both KDE 
>  and Gnome.  The other 25% don't care. 
We're looking at the broader Windows-replacement desktop though, not
just historical unix users.

Certainly it's possible to customize the defaults for each site, and it
would make sense in your case. I believe Red Hat IT dept has a kickstart
setup or package tweaks to configure the default panel for RHEL3 for Red
Hat internal users.

Havoc

[Troy Dawson]

Sorry for blowing up at you.  I've just been told too many times to go 
someplace else.
Thanks for that link.  I could swear I'd searched all over gnomes web site, 
but I had never found that.
Troy
Havoc Pennington wrote:
>  Hi,
>  
>  This list is for development of the Fedora desktop, questions about
>  using it should go to fedora-list instead.
>  
>  On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 09:15, Troy Dawson wrote:
>  
> >So, in short, what file, or set of files, do you need to modify, to change the 
> >default gnome-panel buttons?
> >By default I mean the buttons that a newly created user would see.
> >
>  
>  
>  You might check out the GNOME sysadmin guide, from memory the URL was
>  http://www.gnome.org/learn/ 
>  
>  Havoc
>  
>   
-- 
__________________________________________________
Troy Dawson  dawson(a)fnal.gov  [phone]
Fermilab  ComputingDivision/CSS  CSI Group
__________________________________________________

[seth vidal]

On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 13:02, Troy Dawson wrote:
>  Sorry for blowing up at you.  I've just been told too many times
> to go 
>  someplace else.
>  Thanks for that link.  I could swear I'd searched all over gnomes web site, 
>  but I had never found that. 
You never found it b/c iirc, it's not linked from anywhere on the gnome
website. At all.

:)

-sv

[seth vidal]

On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 13:29, seth vidal wrote:
>  On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 13:02, Troy Dawson wrote:
>  > Sorry for blowing up at you.  I've just been told too many times to go 
>  > someplace else.
>  > Thanks for that link.  I could swear I'd searched all over gnomes web site, 
>  > but I had never found that.
>  
>  You never found it b/c iirc, it's not linked from anywhere on the gnome
>  website. At all.
>  
>  :) 
yes it is not linked from anywhere:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120073


-sv

[Troy Dawson]

seth vidal wrote:
>  On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 13:29, seth vidal wrote:
>  
> >On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 13:02, Troy Dawson wrote:
> >
> >>Sorry for blowing up at you.  I've just been told too many times to go 
> >>someplace else.
> >>Thanks for that link.  I could swear I'd searched all over gnomes web site, 
> >>but I had never found that.
> >
> >You never found it b/c iirc, it's not linked from anywhere on the gnome
> >website. At all.
> >
> >:)
>  
>  
>  yes it is not linked from anywhere:
>  http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120073
>  
>  
>  -sv
>   
Thanks,
That really is a very useful area.  Hopefully they fix it so that there aren't 
more people like me, getting frustrated because they can't find the documentation.
Troy
-- 
__________________________________________________
Troy Dawson  dawson(a)fnal.gov  [phone]
Fermilab  ComputingDivision/CSS  CSI Group
__________________________________________________

[Kreg Steppe]

It is linked from Here:
http://www.gnome.org/start/2.4/

(I Meant to send this yesterday, but I was having an email-fiasco)
Kreg

Troy Dawson wrote:

>  seth vidal wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 13:29, seth vidal wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 13:02, Troy Dawson wrote:
> >>
> >>> Sorry for blowing up at you.  I've just been told too many times to 
> >>> go someplace else.
> >>> Thanks for that link.  I could swear I'd searched all over gnomes 
> >>> web site, but I had never found that.
> >>
> >>
> >> You never found it b/c iirc, it's not linked from anywhere on the gnome
> >> website. At all.
> >>
> >> :)
> >
> >
> >
> > yes it is not linked from anywhere:
> > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120073
> >
> >
> > -sv
> >
>  Thanks,
>  That really is a very useful area.  Hopefully they fix it so that 
>  there aren't more people like me, getting frustrated because they 
>  can't find the documentation.
>  Troy

[seth vidal]

On Thu, 2003-11-20 at 12:41, Kreg Steppe wrote:
>  It is linked from Here:
>  http://www.gnome.org/start/2.4/
>  
>  (I Meant to send this yesterday, but I was having an email-fiasco)
>  Kreg
>   
curiously enough - if you're trying to go from the front page to that
information you have to follow the link 'DOWNLOAD'


that seems a touch counter-intuitive, doesn't it?

-sv

[Kreg Steppe]

Actually I didn't. I followed the link that says:
GNOME 2.4 Desktop & Developer Platform

over on the right from www.gnome.org

But you are right... I think that they could have made it a little more 
intuitive.

Kreg


seth vidal wrote:
>  On Thu, 2003-11-20 at 12:41, Kreg Steppe wrote:
>  
> >It is linked from Here:
> >http://www.gnome.org/start/2.4/
> >
> >(I Meant to send this yesterday, but I was having an email-fiasco)
> >Kreg
> >
>  
>  
>  curiously enough - if you're trying to go from the front page to that
>  information you have to follow the link 'DOWNLOAD'
>  
>  
>  that seems a touch counter-intuitive, doesn't it?
>  
>  -sv
>  
>  
>  
>  --
>  Fedora-desktop-list mailing list
>  Fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com
>  http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list

[Behdad Esfahbod]

I think we need so more dynamic default setup.  For example if
the user has selected Development profile during install, guess
he needs the terminal icon in panel.  I know the reason it's not
currently there by default if for home users that perhaps do not
know what a terminal is.

behdad

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Troy Dawson wrote:

>  Hello,
>  Alot of my users keep complaining whenever they get a new account on a box
>  that the first thing they do is add the terminal button to their panel.  These
>  complaints came from both KDE and Gnome users.
>
>  I was able to change the default buttons on KDE by changing
>  /usr/share/config/kickerrc
>  But try as I might, I cannot find the file, or set of files, to change the
>  default set of buttons that you get on the gnome-panel.
>
>  So, in short, what file, or set of files, do you need to modify, to change the
>  default gnome-panel buttons?
>  By default I mean the buttons that a newly created user would see.
>
>  Thanks
>  Troy Dawson
>
>

[Kreg Steppe]

I think that since Fedora isn't geared towards Home users any longer, 
but towards enthusiasts, and the like, I think that maybe there could be 
a little re-engineering of the defaults. I for one, the first thing that 
I do, is pull that icon right to my panel.

Kreg

Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> I think we need so more dynamic default setup.  For example if
> the user has selected Development profile during install, guess
> he needs the terminal icon in panel.  I know the reason it's not
> currently there by default if for home users that perhaps do not
> know what a terminal is.
>
> behdad
>
> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Troy Dawson wrote:
>
>   
>
> >Hello,
> >Alot of my users keep complaining whenever they get a new account on a box
> >that the first thing they do is add the terminal button to their panel.  These
> >complaints came from both KDE and Gnome users.
> >
> >I was able to change the default buttons on KDE by changing
> >/usr/share/config/kickerrc
> >But try as I might, I cannot find the file, or set of files, to change the
> >default set of buttons that you get on the gnome-panel.
> >
> >So, in short, what file, or set of files, do you need to modify, to change the
> >default gnome-panel buttons?
> >By default I mean the buttons that a newly created user would see.
> >
> >Thanks
> >Troy Dawson
> >
> >
> >    
> >
>
>
> --
> Fedora-desktop-list mailing list
> Fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com
> http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
>   
>

[Havoc Pennington]

On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 13:26, Kreg Steppe wrote:
>  I think that since Fedora isn't geared towards Home users any
> longer, 
>  but towards enthusiasts, and the like, I think that maybe there could be 
>  a little re-engineering of the defaults. I for one, the first thing that 
>  I do, is pull that icon right to my panel.
>   
I'm not sure the idea of Fedora is only command line or old-school unix
people though; rather early adopters, people willing to try new things.
I feel like as developers of the desktop part of the OS, we should maybe
try to dogfood and avoid the command line as much as possible. Though
I'm not the best at this myself.

My feeling on terminal on the panel has always been that it takes
approximately 2 seconds to add the icon, so I haven't ever understood
why people feel it's so important to have there by default.

Havoc

[Colin Charles]

On Thu, 2003-11-20 at 08:24, Havoc Pennington wrote:

>  My feeling on terminal on the panel has always been that it takes
>  approximately 2 seconds to add the icon, so I haven't ever understood
>  why people feel it's so important to have there by default. 
That's because of first impressions. You already have a whole lot of
other apps there, why not the usual terminal?

Some folks take a while to learn that right-clicking will only then
bring up a new terminal (easily). 

If we have Mozilla there, and we do OpenOffice.org, maybe we ought to
just have a terminal there as well. And if its meant to take up less
screen real-estate, reduce the panel-size by default (its 48x48 iirc
which is way too large, imho).
-- 
Colin Charles, byte(a)aeon.com.my
http://www.bytebot.net/

[Kevin Francis]

i agree. leave the terminal be. 2 seconds isn't going to change anyones 
impression. having a direct link to a terminal will however change my 
brothers impression of his desktop ( he's a windows user ) to "techy".

--
Kevin Francis
<http://denial.loose-screws.com/>

Havoc Pennington wrote:
>  On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 13:26, Kreg Steppe wrote:
>  
> >I think that since Fedora isn't geared towards Home users any longer, 
> >but towards enthusiasts, and the like, I think that maybe there could be 
> >a little re-engineering of the defaults. I for one, the first thing that 
> >I do, is pull that icon right to my panel.
> >
>  
>  
>  I'm not sure the idea of Fedora is only command line or old-school unix
>  people though; rather early adopters, people willing to try new things.
>  I feel like as developers of the desktop part of the OS, we should maybe
>  try to dogfood and avoid the command line as much as possible. Though
>  I'm not the best at this myself.
>  
>  My feeling on terminal on the panel has always been that it takes
>  approximately 2 seconds to add the icon, so I haven't ever understood
>  why people feel it's so important to have there by default.
>  
>  Havoc
>  
>  
>  
>  --
>  Fedora-desktop-list mailing list
>  Fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com
>  http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list

[Alexander Larsson]

On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 19:26, Kreg Steppe wrote:
>  I think that since Fedora isn't geared towards Home users any
> longer, 
>  but towards enthusiasts, and the like, I think that maybe there could be 
>  a little re-engineering of the defaults. I for one, the first thing that 
>  I do, is pull that icon right to my panel. 
This is a misconception. Just because we're not currently good enough to
be able to be used by anyone doesn't mean we've decided to not pursue
that goal. The goal of the Fedora desktop is to (eventually) be good
enough and usable enough that anyone should be able to use a default
install and be productive.

This is important to us, since this is what would make Linux a viable
alternative to Windows and MacOS X, and this is the end goal for Fedora.
Just because computer enthusiasts are who currently most use Fedora we
shouldn't ignore this. 

The fact is that enthusiasts (like everyone on this mailing list) can
easily configure their desktop the way they want, and they all do
(differently, and very often so that it looks and works similar to some
older setup we've gotten used to). However, "normal" users (and I know
this is a bad term) typically won't ever change anything from the
default, and its therefore important that we design the defaults with
them foremost in mind. 

The terminal is an important part of Unix, and believe me, I spend most
of my time in a terminal. However, the idea of the desktop and a gui is
that you're supposed to be able to use the computer and be productive
without having to learn and remember a lot of commands. A terminal isn't
very good for this (even if its very efficient for other things), so
pushing one on the user that doesn't need it is bad.

This doesn't mean we should *hide* the terminal, we just shouldn't
expose it extra prominently in the UI. If you're a user that needs to
start a terminal often, then by default you're a user that is able to
add a terminal icon to the panel in less than 5 seconds, and chances are
that you're already not using the default setup anyway.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Alexander Larsson                                            Red Hat, Inc 
                   alexl(a)redhat.com    alla(a)lysator.liu.se 
He's an obese zombie barbarian gone bad. She's a beautiful wisecracking 
traffic cop trying to make a difference in a man's world. They fight crime!

[Kreg Steppe]

After reading your, and Havoc's points I do agree with you.

I dont believe that I was looking at the bigger picture. You guys are 
right that it doesn't take 2 secs to put it on the panel...and UI 
choices should reflect upon the goal of a more Desktop User experience.

I enjoy a good debate, but I will say that you are right.

Kreg



Alexander Larsson wrote:
>  On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 19:26, Kreg Steppe wrote:
>  
> >I think that since Fedora isn't geared towards Home users any longer, 
> >but towards enthusiasts, and the like, I think that maybe there could be 
> >a little re-engineering of the defaults. I for one, the first thing that 
> >I do, is pull that icon right to my panel.
>  
>  
>  This is a misconception. Just because we're not currently good enough to
>  be able to be used by anyone doesn't mean we've decided to not pursue
>  that goal. The goal of the Fedora desktop is to (eventually) be good
>  enough and usable enough that anyone should be able to use a default
>  install and be productive.
>  
>  This is important to us, since this is what would make Linux a viable
>  alternative to Windows and MacOS X, and this is the end goal for Fedora.
>  Just because computer enthusiasts are who currently most use Fedora we
>  shouldn't ignore this. 
>  
>  The fact is that enthusiasts (like everyone on this mailing list) can
>  easily configure their desktop the way they want, and they all do
>  (differently, and very often so that it looks and works similar to some
>  older setup we've gotten used to). However, "normal" users (and I know
>  this is a bad term) typically won't ever change anything from the
>  default, and its therefore important that we design the defaults with
>  them foremost in mind. 
>  
>  The terminal is an important part of Unix, and believe me, I spend most
>  of my time in a terminal. However, the idea of the desktop and a gui is
>  that you're supposed to be able to use the computer and be productive
>  without having to learn and remember a lot of commands. A terminal isn't
>  very good for this (even if its very efficient for other things), so
>  pushing one on the user that doesn't need it is bad.
>  
>  This doesn't mean we should *hide* the terminal, we just shouldn't
>  expose it extra prominently in the UI. If you're a user that needs to
>  start a terminal often, then by default you're a user that is able to
>  add a terminal icon to the panel in less than 5 seconds, and chances are
>  that you're already not using the default setup anyway.
>  
>  =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>   Alexander Larsson                                            Red Hat, Inc 
>                     alexl(a)redhat.com    alla(a)lysator.liu.se 
>  He's an obese zombie barbarian gone bad. She's a beautiful wisecracking 
>  traffic cop trying to make a difference in a man's world. They fight crime! 
>  
>  
>  --
>  Fedora-desktop-list mailing list
>  Fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com
>  http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list