7:44 p.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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hi all
I'll warn you all now before I start, this is going to be a bit of a
rant. If you don't have the time to read this, please skip. Before I
rant, I want to make this crystal clear that I am *not* aiming this at
fedora. You guys have been incredibly helpful and you seem to really
care about accessibility. <Beginning of rant>
I am, to put it bluntly, completely exasperated with the state of
linux accessibility, and the amount of work that seems to be needed
just to keep accessibility functional, let alone surpassing that of
other operating systems. I switched to linux over 3 years ago, and was
immediately impressed. Within five minutes, I'd wiped off windows and
replaced it with linux. Orca immediately came up talking, I could
install independently, all the apps were accessible, etc. I quickly
ran into the same wall I've been trying to tear down these past 3
years though. When an app fails to be accessible, the fun begins.
First, I'm directed to contact the app developer, usually via mailing
list or irc channel, so I do so. Hi, I'm blind, and I want to use
application x. Unfortunately it has accessibility issues with orca. It
won't "whatever is wrong with the app". Is there anything I can do to
help you fix it? I wait for a response. "go away you blind idiot, I
don't have time to fix accessibility issues. Use windows, it just
works". That's not the response most of the times but it boils down to
this. The response is usually something like "Unfortunately no one on
our team knows about accessibility. Accessibility in linux is
incredibly difficult. Maybe you could try our app in windows, it'll
probably work there." This, to put it bluntly, does not solve my
issue. I'm using linux because I do not want windows, and being told
to go back there just frustrates me. Dejected, I log off of the irc
channel and go to the orca list. Hi. Does anyone have experience with
application X? I'm trying to use it with orca version "orca version"
and it "whatever's wrong with the app. "Can anyone help with a
workaround, or can I provide any info to help?" I get a response back
from joanie, who's the orca maintainer. Provide me with a debug file.
Ok, fine, I do that. SHe looks at it, eventually. SHe either fixes it
in orca, which she's really good at by the way or ... "well I can't
fix this. It's a bug in such and such. You'll have to file a bug." Ok,
so I go find their bugzilla page, and file a bug. If it's a framework,
such as at-spi, I don't even bother filing a bug because I don't know
enough to gather debug info at-spi needs, so I'd just be complaining
"this doesn't work" which won't help anyone. My main problem is this.
I'm tired of being overlooked. I do what I'm supposed to in an open
source project to get bugs fixed. I file a bug. I go on mailing lists
and send emails describing issues I'm having. And the only responses I
tend to get are, "No one knows anything, sorry." "accessibility is
complicated, use windows." "We're too understaffed and we'll get
around to it eventually." What am I doing wrong? You sighted people
have no idea how lucky you have it. You can pick up any product off
the shelf and immediately use it. We have to have so many
prerequisites to be in place before we can even think of using
something, most of the time aren't in place, so we can't use it. Why?
Why is accessibility such an uphill battle. Why do I file bugs, only
to have them sit for months, or years before they're fixed, if they're
fixed at all? All I want is to be equal with the people who don't need
a screen reader to use their computer. If I file a bug, it gets fixed.
I don't want special treatment. I just want accessibility to work, and
to keep working. It so often does not happen. Accessibility gets
broken far too easily, no one knows what broke it, and it stays
broken. So many desktops I cannot use. Kde, xfce, lxde, lxqt,
cinnamon. So many applications I cannot use. Chrome/chromium,
applications written for x, rather than using a gui toolkit like gtk
or qt, applications that use something other than gtk or qt for their
toolkit. I've used alternative platforms, like windows, It *is* not
perfect. It has it's own issues. But the desktop, most of it at least,
works, and works well. No unlabeled controlls, no duplicate controlls,
etc. Applications are another story altogether. Gnome has trouble even
keeping their own login manager accessible, to say nothing of other
dm's, kdm, lightdm, etc. What am I doing wrong? I want linux to be a
no brainer for blind people all over the world to use. Most of them
are downright spoiled and hostile to having to put forth any kind of
effort, so that cannot happen until and unless accessibility is taken
as seriously as user interface design and marketing. Please help me
understand. Am I so insignificant that developers just can't be
bothered helping a blind person use their app, when they can be lazy
and a thousand, a million sighted people can, so what's the point for
a few blind people? Is that it? I cannot even turn to blind agencies
to help me, as distasteful as that sounds to me, because the vast
majority of them seem to have been bought off by microsoft or apple.
I'm so tired of the "use windows, it just works. Linux'll never get
anywhere." or the , "Just use mac, it's all I need, and it's
completely accessible." from other blind people when I try to get
interest in fixing linux accessibility issues. I'm a nice person, up
to a point. I'm willing to work with developers who are willing to fix
their accessibility issues. But I'm not as patient as I once was. Too
many times I've been promised accessibility fixes, only to get
nothing. The excuses don't matter if you don't keep your word. It
comes to a point when I just want to log onto an irc channel and yell,
"ok, there's yet another accessible issue. Someone get on this
immediately and fix it or I'll ..." I don't, because that's going to
get me nowhere, as well as banned. But I'm tired of running in
circles. It's not our problem, go bug these people, it's their toolkit
that's keeping orca from reading the app. It's so complex I have only
the vaguest understanding of how the tools fit together in order for
orca to read my screen. <end of rant> Ok, that felt good. I've talked
long enough, so I'll end this. Please don't ban me, like I said in the
beginning this is not fedora's fault. You people have shown that you
care about accessibility, and I've seen proof in your tools. They're
all accessible. This rant is *not* directed at you. But linux
accessibility needs a kick in the pants. It needs a big company with
lots of money behind it, rather than a handful of developers fixing
the issues, in their spair time. I don't know how many blind linux
users their are but reguardless of the number, they deserve the same
experience a sighted user gets when they turn on their computer. I
will do whatever it takes to fix this, if it takes dedicating the rest
of my life to this. I don't have much money to spair, but I can
probably donate some, if money is needed. I picked fedora because it's
backed by redhat, and because the community is caring and helpful. I
need help. What do you long time and sighted linux users think can be
done about this? I'm tired of the disinterest from developers, the
assumption that surely there's another app that I can use, so they
don't have to bother fixing accessibility issues. Surely I can switch
to another platform, usually windows, because linux isn't cut out for
what I want to use it for. That's clearly false, time and time again
with effort it can quickly surpass other platforms. But so often that
effort isn't even started. Or started and abandoned. Google won't even
make chrome accessible using pre existing accessibility frameworks.
At-spi on linux, something else on windows I forget the name. Instead
they develop their own, completely nonstandard and possibly closed
source implementation, and expect you to use that if you want to use
their browser. Duplication of effort is not the answer. I personally
think, and I could be completely wrong, but I think there needs to be
an accessibility standard framework that applications adhere to. This
is already here, in terms of at-spi2. This needs to be baked into the
display server itself, so that applications either cannot, or cannot
easily render their applications inaccessible. Otherwise we're going
to have the same situation we're struggling with today. Accessibility
problem, file bug, wait. It may or may not get fixed. This *needs* to
get fixed and stay fixed. I want to help that happen, not whine and
complain. I realize I've just done that, but this will be the only
email of this kind you'll get from me. I just had to get it out there
for people who have moer experience with linux than I do to chew on.
Please don't ban me, I want to help fedora, and by extension all linux
distros get better in terms of accessibility.
Thanks for reading
Kendell clark
Sent from fedora GNU/Linux version 21
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1:53 a.m.
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hi
Well, I've successfully gotten another blind user to switch over from
windows to fedora, so all is good now. STill want advice from sighted
users for how to get accessibility bugs fixed without causing
headaches, but I'm much better now
Thanks
Kendell clark
Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
kendell clark wrote:
hi all I'll warn you all now before I start, this is going to be
a
bit of a rant. If you don't have the time to read this, please
skip. Before I rant, I want to make this crystal clear that I am
*not* aiming this at fedora. You guys have been incredibly helpful
and you seem to really care about accessibility. <Beginning of
rant> I am, to put it bluntly, completely exasperated with the
state of linux accessibility, and the amount of work that seems to
be needed just to keep accessibility functional, let alone
surpassing that of other operating systems. I switched to linux
over 3 years ago, and was immediately impressed. Within five
minutes, I'd wiped off windows and replaced it with linux. Orca
immediately came up talking, I could install independently, all the
apps were accessible, etc. I quickly ran into the same wall I've
been trying to tear down these past 3 years though. When an app
fails to be accessible, the fun begins. First, I'm directed to
contact the app developer, usually via mailing list or irc channel,
so I do so. Hi, I'm blind, and I want to use application x.
Unfortunately it has accessibility issues with orca. It won't
"whatever is wrong with the app". Is there anything I can do to
help you fix it? I wait for a response. "go away you blind idiot,
I don't have time to fix accessibility issues. Use windows, it
just works". That's not the response most of the times but it boils
down to this. The response is usually something like "Unfortunately
no one on our team knows about accessibility. Accessibility in
linux is incredibly difficult. Maybe you could try our app in
windows, it'll probably work there." This, to put it bluntly, does
not solve my issue. I'm using linux because I do not want windows,
and being told to go back there just frustrates me. Dejected, I log
off of the irc channel and go to the orca list. Hi. Does anyone
have experience with application X? I'm trying to use it with orca
version "orca version" and it "whatever's wrong with the app.
"Can
anyone help with a workaround, or can I provide any info to help?"
I get a response back from joanie, who's the orca maintainer.
Provide me with a debug file. Ok, fine, I do that. SHe looks at it,
eventually. SHe either fixes it in orca, which she's really good at
by the way or ... "well I can't fix this. It's a bug in such and
such. You'll have to file a bug." Ok, so I go find their bugzilla
page, and file a bug. If it's a framework, such as at-spi, I don't
even bother filing a bug because I don't know enough to gather
debug info at-spi needs, so I'd just be complaining "this doesn't
work" which won't help anyone. My main problem is this. I'm tired
of being overlooked. I do what I'm supposed to in an open source
project to get bugs fixed. I file a bug. I go on mailing lists and
send emails describing issues I'm having. And the only responses I
tend to get are, "No one knows anything, sorry." "accessibility is
complicated, use windows." "We're too understaffed and we'll get
around to it eventually." What am I doing wrong? You sighted
people have no idea how lucky you have it. You can pick up any
product off the shelf and immediately use it. We have to have so
many prerequisites to be in place before we can even think of
using something, most of the time aren't in place, so we can't use
it. Why? Why is accessibility such an uphill battle. Why do I file
bugs, only to have them sit for months, or years before they're
fixed, if they're fixed at all? All I want is to be equal with the
people who don't need a screen reader to use their computer. If I
file a bug, it gets fixed. I don't want special treatment. I just
want accessibility to work, and to keep working. It so often does
not happen. Accessibility gets broken far too easily, no one knows
what broke it, and it stays broken. So many desktops I cannot use.
Kde, xfce, lxde, lxqt, cinnamon. So many applications I cannot use.
Chrome/chromium, applications written for x, rather than using a
gui toolkit like gtk or qt, applications that use something other
than gtk or qt for their toolkit. I've used alternative platforms,
like windows, It *is* not perfect. It has it's own issues. But the
desktop, most of it at least, works, and works well. No unlabeled
controlls, no duplicate controlls, etc. Applications are another
story altogether. Gnome has trouble even keeping their own login
manager accessible, to say nothing of other dm's, kdm, lightdm,
etc. What am I doing wrong? I want linux to be a no brainer for
blind people all over the world to use. Most of them are downright
spoiled and hostile to having to put forth any kind of effort, so
that cannot happen until and unless accessibility is taken as
seriously as user interface design and marketing. Please help me
understand. Am I so insignificant that developers just can't be
bothered helping a blind person use their app, when they can be
lazy and a thousand, a million sighted people can, so what's the
point for a few blind people? Is that it? I cannot even turn to
blind agencies to help me, as distasteful as that sounds to me,
because the vast majority of them seem to have been bought off by
microsoft or apple. I'm so tired of the "use windows, it just
works. Linux'll never get anywhere." or the , "Just use mac, it's
all I need, and it's completely accessible." from other blind
people when I try to get interest in fixing linux accessibility
issues. I'm a nice person, up to a point. I'm willing to work with
developers who are willing to fix their accessibility issues. But
I'm not as patient as I once was. Too many times I've been promised
accessibility fixes, only to get nothing. The excuses don't matter
if you don't keep your word. It comes to a point when I just want
to log onto an irc channel and yell, "ok, there's yet another
accessible issue. Someone get on this immediately and fix it or
I'll ..." I don't, because that's going to get me nowhere, as well
as banned. But I'm tired of running in circles. It's not our
problem, go bug these people, it's their toolkit that's keeping
orca from reading the app. It's so complex I have only the vaguest
understanding of how the tools fit together in order for orca to
read my screen. <end of rant> Ok, that felt good. I've talked long
enough, so I'll end this. Please don't ban me, like I said in the
beginning this is not fedora's fault. You people have shown that
you care about accessibility, and I've seen proof in your tools.
They're all accessible. This rant is *not* directed at you. But
linux accessibility needs a kick in the pants. It needs a big
company with lots of money behind it, rather than a handful of
developers fixing the issues, in their spair time. I don't know how
many blind linux users their are but reguardless of the number,
they deserve the same experience a sighted user gets when they turn
on their computer. I will do whatever it takes to fix this, if it
takes dedicating the rest of my life to this. I don't have much
money to spair, but I can probably donate some, if money is needed.
I picked fedora because it's backed by redhat, and because the
community is caring and helpful. I need help. What do you long time
and sighted linux users think can be done about this? I'm tired of
the disinterest from developers, the assumption that surely there's
another app that I can use, so they don't have to bother fixing
accessibility issues. Surely I can switch to another platform,
usually windows, because linux isn't cut out for what I want to use
it for. That's clearly false, time and time again with effort it
can quickly surpass other platforms. But so often that effort isn't
even started. Or started and abandoned. Google won't even make
chrome accessible using pre existing accessibility frameworks.
At-spi on linux, something else on windows I forget the name.
Instead they develop their own, completely nonstandard and possibly
closed source implementation, and expect you to use that if you
want to use their browser. Duplication of effort is not the answer.
I personally think, and I could be completely wrong, but I think
there needs to be an accessibility standard framework that
applications adhere to. This is already here, in terms of at-spi2.
This needs to be baked into the display server itself, so that
applications either cannot, or cannot easily render their
applications inaccessible. Otherwise we're going to have the same
situation we're struggling with today. Accessibility problem, file
bug, wait. It may or may not get fixed. This *needs* to get fixed
and stay fixed. I want to help that happen, not whine and complain.
I realize I've just done that, but this will be the only email of
this kind you'll get from me. I just had to get it out there for
people who have moer experience with linux than I do to chew on.
Please don't ban me, I want to help fedora, and by extension all
linux distros get better in terms of accessibility. Thanks for
reading Kendell clark Sent from fedora GNU/Linux version 21
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1:23 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 07:44:42PM -0500, kendell clark wrote:
So many desktops I cannot use. Kde, xfce, lxde, lxqt,
cinnamon. So many applications I cannot use. Chrome/chromium,
applications written for x, rather than using a gui toolkit like gtk
or qt, applications that use something other than gtk or qt for their
toolkit.
Hi,
if gnome almost works for you, for some definition of almost, then I
think you should direct your efforts at improving gnome. As the default
desktop in Fedora Workstation it has the highest exposure, and is most
likely to reach the "critical mass" of accessibility-requiring-users.
gnome-software is slowly discouraging people from installing packages
using old toolkits. This already aligns with your needs. Applications
are scored on a number of features, like large icons, proper
descriptive text, etc. Accessibility support was not on that list to
the best of my memory. Maybe you could work with Richard Huges — the
author of gnome—software — to add bonus points to applications which
score well in this regard.
Zbyszek
4:23 p.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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hi
You know, that's a fantastic idea. For the most part though,
accessibility just works. There are exceptions, but as long as you
follow the gtk standards, like providing labels for custom widgets,
making sure your button is really set as a button in gtk and doesn't
just draw an image of a button on screen or similar, orca and similar
just work. Gnome does have issues with unlabeled controls, mostly
buttons, and duplicate controlls where orca will read a control twice,
and it's usually the second instance of that control that's actually
sensitive and actionable. But it definitely cannot hurt to have an
accessibility rating for applications. There remain some serious
issues in some toolkits, such as wxgtk. List boxes in linux are not
presentable by orca. This is probably either a toolkit error or an
orca one that can be solved. Qt works for the most part. I would like
eventually, but am not holding my breath, for applications being run
using wine to be usable by orca. This would require some kind of
windows accessibility to linux accessibility translator or mapper.
LIke I said, I want only to be equal among sighted people. I don't
want special treatment. If you're designing a product or software,
just consider accessibility. It isn't magic or a hard thing to do,
it's just something that';s often not done by hardware and software
manufacturers. That said, linux is much much better at this than
windows, who leaves the blind people to their own devices when
installing stuff. There are actually driver install programs that are
inaccessible, so you can't even read the thing that installs your
hardware drivers. Linux's device model is different, and superior imo
and doesn't require this
Thanks for reading
Kendell clark
Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 07:44:42PM -0500, kendell clark wrote:
> So many desktops I cannot use. Kde, xfce, lxde, lxqt, cinnamon.
> So many applications I cannot use. Chrome/chromium, applications
> written for x, rather than using a gui toolkit like gtk or qt,
> applications that use something other than gtk or qt for their
> toolkit.
Hi,
if gnome almost works for you, for some definition of almost, then
I think you should direct your efforts at improving gnome. As the
default desktop in Fedora Workstation it has the highest exposure,
and is most likely to reach the "critical mass" of
accessibility-requiring-users.
gnome-software is slowly discouraging people from installing
packages using old toolkits. This already aligns with your needs.
Applications are scored on a number of features, like large icons,
proper descriptive text, etc. Accessibility support was not on that
list to the best of my memory. Maybe you could work with Richard
Huges — the author of gnome—software — to add bonus points to
applications which score well in this regard.
Zbyszek
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6:34 a.m.
Hey,
As Zbyszek commented, your best bet is to file bugs (preferably upstream)
against those applications which break accessibility.
We also have a number of changes planned to various parts of GNOME to make
it easier to start a screen reader during installation, or on existing
installations.
We've already made great strides in GNOME 3, where enabling accessibility features
doesn't require restarting applications or the desktop. That makes it easier
for users to use, and developers to test applications.
In short, file bugs. For GNOME at least, they will be fixed.
Cheers
----- Original Message -----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
hi
You know, that's a fantastic idea. For the most part though,
accessibility just works. There are exceptions, but as long as you
follow the gtk standards, like providing labels for custom widgets,
making sure your button is really set as a button in gtk and doesn't
just draw an image of a button on screen or similar, orca and similar
just work. Gnome does have issues with unlabeled controls, mostly
buttons, and duplicate controlls where orca will read a control twice,
and it's usually the second instance of that control that's actually
sensitive and actionable. But it definitely cannot hurt to have an
accessibility rating for applications. There remain some serious
issues in some toolkits, such as wxgtk. List boxes in linux are not
presentable by orca. This is probably either a toolkit error or an
orca one that can be solved. Qt works for the most part. I would like
eventually, but am not holding my breath, for applications being run
using wine to be usable by orca. This would require some kind of
windows accessibility to linux accessibility translator or mapper.
LIke I said, I want only to be equal among sighted people. I don't
want special treatment. If you're designing a product or software,
just consider accessibility. It isn't magic or a hard thing to do,
it's just something that';s often not done by hardware and software
manufacturers. That said, linux is much much better at this than
windows, who leaves the blind people to their own devices when
installing stuff. There are actually driver install programs that are
inaccessible, so you can't even read the thing that installs your
hardware drivers. Linux's device model is different, and superior imo
and doesn't require this
Thanks for reading
Kendell clark
Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
3:58 p.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
hi
You guys sure have. Gnome 3 is already quite accessible, and turning
on orca "just works". My rant was mainly aimed at developers who, for
one reason or another, either don't know how to, don't want to, or
will not fix accessibility issues. There are some unlabeled controlls
in gnome, lots of unlabeled buttons in the settings parts of gnome, as
well as duplicate buttons and combo boxes in the power settings. I'll
wait for gnome 3.16 before I start filing bugs since you guys are
busy trying to get that out the door. I will raise one issue now
though. I've heard that the message tray is gone, and in f22, it is.
Notifications have been moved to the calendar, which is accessible,
I've used it. But how do I get to applications that formally resided
in the message tray without resorting to the mouse? Could a keyboard
shortcut be added in 3.16 that would jump to that area? I only ask
because if a blind person has to resort to a mouse to get to status
applets, it will seriously slow us down
Thanks
Kendell clark
Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
Bastien Nocera wrote:
Hey,
As Zbyszek commented, your best bet is to file bugs (preferably
upstream) against those applications which break accessibility.
We also have a number of changes planned to various parts of GNOME
to make it easier to start a screen reader during installation, or
on existing installations.
We've already made great strides in GNOME 3, where enabling
accessibility features doesn't require restarting applications or
the desktop. That makes it easier for users to use, and developers
to test applications.
In short, file bugs. For GNOME at least, they will be fixed.
Cheers
----- Original Message -----
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512
>
> hi You know, that's a fantastic idea. For the most part though,
> accessibility just works. There are exceptions, but as long as
> you follow the gtk standards, like providing labels for custom
> widgets, making sure your button is really set as a button in gtk
> and doesn't just draw an image of a button on screen or similar,
> orca and similar just work. Gnome does have issues with unlabeled
> controls, mostly buttons, and duplicate controlls where orca will
> read a control twice, and it's usually the second instance of
> that control that's actually sensitive and actionable. But it
> definitely cannot hurt to have an accessibility rating for
> applications. There remain some serious issues in some toolkits,
> such as wxgtk. List boxes in linux are not presentable by orca.
> This is probably either a toolkit error or an orca one that can
> be solved. Qt works for the most part. I would like eventually,
> but am not holding my breath, for applications being run using
> wine to be usable by orca. This would require some kind of
> windows accessibility to linux accessibility translator or
> mapper. LIke I said, I want only to be equal among sighted
> people. I don't want special treatment. If you're designing a
> product or software, just consider accessibility. It isn't magic
> or a hard thing to do, it's just something that';s often not done
> by hardware and software manufacturers. That said, linux is much
> much better at this than windows, who leaves the blind people to
> their own devices when installing stuff. There are actually
> driver install programs that are inaccessible, so you can't even
> read the thing that installs your hardware drivers. Linux's
> device model is different, and superior imo and doesn't require
> this Thanks for reading Kendell clark Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
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4:13 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 9:59 PM kendell clark <coffeekingms(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
But how do I get to applications that formally resided
in the message tray without resorting to the mouse? Could a keyboard
shortcut be added in 3.16 that would jump to that area?
It has already been added to the ctrl-alt-tab popup, so it is possible to
navigate to the area using the keyboard. Unfortunately the icons themselves
are notoriously bad with regard to accessibility though ...
4:18 p.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
hi
Sweet, I'll update my test system running f22 and try this. I'll write
back in with feedback
Thanks
Kendell clark
Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
Florian Müllner wrote:
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 9:59 PM kendell clark
<coffeekingms(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> But how do I get to applications that formally resided in the
> message tray without resorting to the mouse? Could a keyboard
> shortcut be added in 3.16 that would jump to that area?
It has already been added to the ctrl-alt-tab popup, so it is
possible to navigate to the area using the keyboard. Unfortunately
the icons themselves are notoriously bad with regard to
accessibility though ...
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4:49 p.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
hi
I've just updated f22. I don't see the item in the control+alt+tab
popup for status icons, but I'll keep looking. This system is pretty
much vanilla fedora with the exception of pidgin, so I'll run that,
which does have a status icon that lives in gnome shell's message
tray. I do have two suggestions that I hope can make it into 3.16,
and a couple more that probably won't. First suggestion. When you
click the updates button in gnome software, the "check for updates"
button is not focusable by orca. You cannot navigate to it by pressing
tab. You have to use orca's flat review to click on it to activate it.
A nemonic of alt+c would make sense. When restarting to install
updates, would it be possible to start gdm in a minimal state, just
enough to allow orca to turn on and announce "installing updates"
downloading updates, etc? At the moment all I see while updates are
downloaded and installed is the fedora logo. Now comes my suggestions
that won't make it into 3.16 unless I am very lucky. I'd like to
suggest that status icons be moved to the top bar, possibly before or
after the "settings" menu with system hardware, wifi, bluetooth,
power, etc, so everything is in one place. I'd also like to suggest a
"software" item be permanently attached to the top bar if gnome
software is installed, so that the user can check for update manually,
configure when updates are checked for, etc. I don't think it's
possible to configure gnome software much at the moment, it checks
when it's told to. The gnome guys have done a fantastic job with
accessibility. I wasn't sure about this new notifications system but
it's accessible and very handy. Congratulations on a job very very
well done! I'll file that vte bug so it can get fixed, as well as bugs
against gnome-control-center if there are any unlabeled buttons or
duplicates
Thanks for reading
Kendell clark
Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
kendell clark wrote:
hi Sweet, I'll update my test system running f22 and try this.
I'll
write back in with feedback Thanks Kendell clark Sent from Fedora
GNU/Linux
Florian Müllner wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 9:59 PM kendell clark
> <coffeekingms(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> But how do I get to applications that formally resided in the
>> message tray without resorting to the mouse? Could a keyboard
>> shortcut be added in 3.16 that would jump to that area?
> It has already been added to the ctrl-alt-tab popup, so it is
> possible to navigate to the area using the keyboard.
> Unfortunately the icons themselves are notoriously bad with
> regard to accessibility though ...
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6:06 p.m.
New subject: VTE bug filed, was: frustrated with the state of linux accessibility
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
hi all. I've just filed the vte bug. This affects orca, which will
intermittently fail to read new incoming text, skipping lines of text,
or cutting off the first letter of text. The URL is at,
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=746488.
Thanks
Kendell clark
Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
kendell clark wrote:
hi I've just updated f22. I don't see the item in the
control+alt+tab popup for status icons, but I'll keep looking. This
system is pretty much vanilla fedora with the exception of pidgin,
so I'll run that, which does have a status icon that lives in gnome
shell's message tray. I do have two suggestions that I hope can
make it into 3.16, and a couple more that probably won't. First
suggestion. When you click the updates button in gnome software,
the "check for updates" button is not focusable by orca. You cannot
navigate to it by pressing tab. You have to use orca's flat review
to click on it to activate it. A nemonic of alt+c would make sense.
When restarting to install updates, would it be possible to start
gdm in a minimal state, just enough to allow orca to turn on and
announce "installing updates" downloading updates, etc? At the
moment all I see while updates are downloaded and installed is the
fedora logo. Now comes my suggestions that won't make it into 3.16
unless I am very lucky. I'd like to suggest that status icons be
moved to the top bar, possibly before or after the "settings" menu
with system hardware, wifi, bluetooth, power, etc, so everything is
in one place. I'd also like to suggest a "software" item be
permanently attached to the top bar if gnome software is installed,
so that the user can check for update manually, configure when
updates are checked for, etc. I don't think it's possible to
configure gnome software much at the moment, it checks when it's
told to. The gnome guys have done a fantastic job with
accessibility. I wasn't sure about this new notifications system
but it's accessible and very handy. Congratulations on a job very
very well done! I'll file that vte bug so it can get fixed, as well
as bugs against gnome-control-center if there are any unlabeled
buttons or duplicates Thanks for reading Kendell clark Sent from
Fedora GNU/Linux
kendell clark wrote:
> hi Sweet, I'll update my test system running f22 and try this.
> I'll write back in with feedback Thanks Kendell clark Sent from
> Fedora GNU/Linux
> Florian Müllner wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 9:59 PM kendell clark
>> <coffeekingms(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>> But how do I get to applications that formally resided in the
>>> message tray without resorting to the mouse? Could a
>>> keyboard shortcut be added in 3.16 that would jump to that
>>> area?
>> It has already been added to the ctrl-alt-tab popup, so it is
>> possible to navigate to the area using the keyboard.
>> Unfortunately the icons themselves are notoriously bad with
>> regard to accessibility though ...
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6:32 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 10:49 PM kendell clark <coffeekingms(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
I've just updated f22. I don't see the item in the
control+alt+tab
popup for status icons, but I'll keep looking.
The 3.15.92 update is still in testing (http://goo.gl/f2tWVk), so that's
expected. In the meanwhile, I've filed
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=746487 for some more status icon
improvements.
6:42 p.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
hi
Yay! Thanks a lot for this. I'll comment on that bug. That explains
why I didn't get gnome 3.15.92. I do have the testing repo enabled but
maybe my mirror hasn't synced yet.
Thanks
Kendell clark
Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
Florian Müllner wrote:
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 10:49 PM kendell clark
<coffeekingms(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I've just updated f22. I don't see the item in the
> control+alt+tab popup for status icons, but I'll keep looking.
The 3.15.92 update is still in testing (http://goo.gl/f2tWVk), so
that's expected. In the meanwhile, I've filed
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=746487 for some more
status icon improvements.
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6:45 p.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
hi
just curious. What changed in gnome 3.16 to make status icons
inaccessible? In gnome 3.14, the message tray was never inaccessible.
Some of the icons wouldn't let me access their pop up menu but they
all corresponded with their application. EG pidgin internet messenger,
vlc media player, etc. Is this still the case with the icons being
moved to the bottom left of the screen?
Thanks
Kendell clark
Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
Florian Müllner wrote:
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 10:49 PM kendell clark
<coffeekingms(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I've just updated f22. I don't see the item in the
> control+alt+tab popup for status icons, but I'll keep looking.
The 3.15.92 update is still in testing (http://goo.gl/f2tWVk), so
that's expected. In the meanwhile, I've filed
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=746487 for some more
status icon improvements.
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3:34 p.m.
On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 12:46 AM kendell clark <coffeekingms(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
just curious. What changed in gnome 3.16 to make status icons
inaccessible? In gnome 3.14, the message tray was never inaccessible.
Status icons were decoupled from notifications, and the message tray was
removed altogether, as well as the items that grouped notifications
(usually by application). The latter was what provided
accessible-name/event handling for status icons, not the icons themselves
- so when the icons were moved, I overlooked the missing accessibility
features that used to be provided by the removed bits.
Some of the icons wouldn't let me access their pop up menu but
they
all corresponded with their application. EG pidgin internet messenger,
vlc media player, etc. Is this still the case with the icons being
moved to the bottom left of the screen?
<https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop>
Yes, with the patches from the aforementioned bug. It is still up to the
application providing the icon to handle keyboard events, but at least
almost all icons should have a name.
12:31 a.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
hi all
Just had the opportunity to test latest updates to f22. The status
icons are indeed back. The icons are there but are inaccessible. It's
possible the patches in the bug posted here haven't been added yet,
and if so I apologize. There is a very important problem in gdm that
imo needs to be fixed before 3.16, despite the code freeze. Orca is
unable to read the login screen. It simply can't see the gdm window. I
think, but don't know for sure, that this is because it's using
wayland. I can report a bug if needed, but I won't be of much help,
since all I know is orca doesn't read it, not why or how to provide
debug info. I will of course help however I can.
Thanks
Kendell clark
Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
kendell clark wrote:
hi just curious. What changed in gnome 3.16 to make status icons
inaccessible? In gnome 3.14, the message tray was never
inaccessible. Some of the icons wouldn't let me access their pop up
menu but they all corresponded with their application. EG pidgin
internet messenger, vlc media player, etc. Is this still the case
with the icons being moved to the bottom left of the screen?
Thanks Kendell clark Sent from Fedora GNU/Linux
Florian Müllner wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 10:49 PM kendell clark
> <coffeekingms(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've just updated f22. I don't see the item in the
>> control+alt+tab popup for status icons, but I'll keep looking.
> The 3.15.92 update is still in testing (http://goo.gl/f2tWVk),
> so that's expected. In the meanwhile, I've filed
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=746487 for some more
> status icon improvements.
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participants (4)
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Bastien Nocera -
Florian Müllner -
kendell clark -
Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek