DevAssistant vs. Interface Guidelines (Applications installed by default)

[Tomas Radej]

Hi,

DevAssistant upstream here. We're acutely aware of the DA GUI not 
conforming to the guidelines, and not only for that reason, we intend to 
drop it entirely and replace it with an in-house Web UI for Fedora 24. 
The replacement is a part of the larger effort of converting DA to a 
client/server model, which is underway, and should be ready for F24.

If, then, there is someone willing to write a GTK-based GUI client for 
DA from scratch (the current GUI will not be usable at all due to 
reworked architecture), we'll be more than happy to help them make it 
happen (We already have some design sketches from Mizmo, so the design 
part is taken care of). Mind you that none of us really understands GTK, 
PyGObject, and the like, so it's the inner workings we can help with 
rather than making the GUI itself. We'll have a public DA server API out 
soon, so I can point the person to it once it's done.

In any case, we're very much interested in DevAssistant staying 
installed by default, so we'd like to work this out before the actual 
suggestion of dropping it makes it to the table. If you have any 
questions or comments, please post to 
[e-mail], or come to #devassistant at Freenode.

Cheers,

[Bastien Nocera]

----- Original Message -----
> Hi,
>
> DevAssistant upstream here. We're acutely aware of the DA GUI not
> conforming to the guidelines, and not only for that reason, we intend to
> drop it entirely and replace it with an in-house Web UI for Fedora 24.
> The replacement is a part of the larger effort of converting DA to a
> client/server model, which is underway, and should be ready for F24.

<snip>

This is the architecture:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devassistant/2015-April/000065.htm...
?

[Tomas Radej]

Hi,

On 03/09/15 18:50, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> > Hi,
> >
> > DevAssistant upstream here. We're acutely aware of the DA GUI not
> > conforming to the guidelines, and not only for that reason, we intend to
> > drop it entirely and replace it with an in-house Web UI for Fedora 24.
> > The replacement is a part of the larger effort of converting DA to a
> > client/server model, which is underway, and should be ready for F24.
>
> <snip>
>
> This is the architecture:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devassistant/2015-April/000065.htm...
> ?

No, there were fundamental changes after that. I will post a revised 
outline tomorrow to the DA mailing list, and link to it in this 
conversation.

[Tomas Radej]

On 03/09/15 18:59, Tomas Radej wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 03/09/15 18:50, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > DevAssistant upstream here. We're acutely aware of the DA GUI not
> > > conforming to the guidelines, and not only for that reason, we intend to
> > > drop it entirely and replace it with an in-house Web UI for Fedora 24.
> > > The replacement is a part of the larger effort of converting DA to a
> > > client/server model, which is underway, and should be ready for F24.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > This is the architecture:
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devassistant/2015-April/000065.htm...
> >
> > ?
>
> No, there were fundamental changes after that. I will post a revised
> outline tomorrow to the DA mailing list, and link to it in this
> conversation.

Here's the outline: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devassistant/2015-September/000086...

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Fri, 2015-09-04 at 18:37 +0200, Tomas Radej wrote:
> Here's the outline: 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devassistant/2015-September
> /000086.html

"Running "da-gui" will then open your default browser pointed to
localhost:port where the web app will reside."

I think we can work with this plan. da-gui sounds good for spins, but
for Workstation we would want to use a GNOME web app. We would need to
think a bit about how to package a web app so that it can be installed
using RPM, which we haven't done before, but I don't think this will
present any significant challenges. (We might need some small changes
in Epiphany and GNOME Software to make sure removal works properly.)

If you haven't used GNOME web apps before, you can install a few like
Twitter and Facebook using GNOME Software, or install one for any
arbitrary site using Epiphany (via the menu in the upper-right section
of the title bar).

Michael

[Stephen Gallagher]

On Fri, 2015-09-04 at 13:41 -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
> On Fri, 2015-09-04 at 18:37 +0200, Tomas Radej wrote:
> > Here's the outline: 
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devassistant/2015-Septemb
> > er
> > /000086.html
>
> "Running "da-gui" will then open your default browser pointed to
> localhost:port where the web app will reside."
>
> I think we can work with this plan. da-gui sounds good for spins, but
> for Workstation we would want to use a GNOME web app. We would need
> to
> think a bit about how to package a web app so that it can be
> installed
> using RPM, which we haven't done before,

Incorrect. Take a look at Cockpit for an example of how to do this.

Cockpit ships AppData and a desktop file in the RPM:
https://github.com/cockpit-project/cockpit/blob/master/src/ws/cockpit.a
ppdata.xml.in
https://github.com/cockpit-project/cockpit/blob/master/src/ws/cockpit.d
esktop.in
> but I don't think this will
> present any significant challenges. (We might need some small changes
> in Epiphany and GNOME Software to make sure removal works properly.)
>
> If you haven't used GNOME web apps before, you can install a few like
> Twitter and Facebook using GNOME Software, or install one for any
> arbitrary site using Epiphany (via the menu in the upper-right
> section
> of the title bar).
>
> Michael

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Tue, 2015-09-08 at 08:43 -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote:
> Incorrect. Take a look at Cockpit for an example of how to do this.
>
> Cockpit ships AppData and a desktop file in the RPM:
> https://github.com/cockpit-project/cockpit/blob/master/src/ws/cockpit
> .a
> ppdata.xml.in
> https://github.com/cockpit-project/cockpit/blob/master/src/ws/cockpit
> .d
> esktop.in

Hi!

Hm, that is something different. The desktop file contains:

Exec=xdg-open http://localhost:9090

That's not what we want here, since it would open as one new tab in the
main browser window, using the default web browser. I think it's the
best we can do without making any changes in GNOME Software or
Epiphany, but it breaks our application model [1] (e.g. "Do not affect
or interfere with the behavior of other applications."). In contrast, a
GNOME web app functions as a separate application. If you have GNOME
Software installed, you have a few hidden in
~/.local/share/applications that look like this:

Exec=epiphany --application-mode -
-profile="/home/mcatanzaro/.config/epiphany/app-epiphany
-askfedora.desktop-0ff313329d0570e2d3e8b7d673488063ea6c1183" 
https://ask.fedoraproject.org

We have hardcoded assumptions in Epiphany that the app is just a
desktop file installed in your home directory. We would need to upgrade
the interface for removing web apps to detect if it is installed in a
system package, and if so hand off the job of removal to GNOME
Software.

Michael

[1] https://developer.gnome.org/hig/stable/application-basics.html.en

[Tomas Radej]

Hi,

On 08/09/15 18:15, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Hm, that is something different. The desktop file contains:
>
> Exec=xdg-open http://localhost:9090
>
> That's not what we want here, since it would open as one new tab in the
> main browser window, using the default web browser. I think it's the
> best we can do without making any changes in GNOME Software or
> Epiphany, but it breaks our application model [1] (e.g. "Do not affect
> or interfere with the behavior of other applications."). In contrast, a
> GNOME web app functions as a separate application. If you have GNOME
> Software installed, you have a few hidden in
> ~/.local/share/applications that look like this:
>
> Exec=epiphany --application-mode -
> -profile="/home/mcatanzaro/.config/epiphany/app-epiphany
> -askfedora.desktop-0ff313329d0570e2d3e8b7d673488063ea6c1183"
> https://ask.fedoraproject.org

What's the intended approach when we want to provide the Web UI for 
non-GNOME users too? I assume it's having two desktop files, one with 
OnlyShowIn=GNOME, but what about the other?

I'm not very seasoned (i. e. not at all) in Desktop things, so I'd like 
to ask for a hint.

Thanks,

[Mathieu Bridon]

On Tue, 2015-09-08 at 18:34 +0200, Tomas Radej wrote:
> What's the intended approach when we want to provide the Web UI for
> non-GNOME users too? I assume it's having two desktop files, one with
> OnlyShowIn=GNOME, but what about the other?

You could use the opposite: NotShowIn=GNOME

But then, what URL will that web app point to?

Will it point to localhost? (and if so, what will start the local DA
server? and what about deployments using a remote server?)

Will it point to a remote DA server? (but then... what happens if there
is no DA server running at that address? and what about using a local
server?)

All in all, with that client/server architecture, I'm not sure it makesmuch sense to have a web app installed with an RPM, pointing to a URL which might not exist, requiring some action from the user before they can run the app. (either changing the URL to point ot their remote server, or starting the local server)

Maybe it is better to not ship a desktop file, but merely let the user
connect to their DA server by opening the right URL in their preferred
browser? (either manually, or with a CLI tool like da-gui in your
proposal)

That doesn't seem like too much of a hardship for developers. :)

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Tue, 2015-09-08 at 18:34 +0200, Tomas Radej wrote:
> What's the intended approach when we want to provide the Web UI for 
> non-GNOME users too? I assume it's having two desktop files, one with
> OnlyShowIn=GNOME, but what about the other?
>
> I'm not very seasoned (i. e. not at all) in Desktop things, so I'd
> like 
> to ask for a hint.
>
> Thanks,

Hm. The desktop file with xdg-open is probably the best answer for
other desktops that we have right now; you would use NotShowIn=GNOME in
the desktop-agnostic desktop file, and OnlyShowIn=GNOME in the GNOME
web app's desktop file. But this is not a very good answer since it
requires duplicate desktop files and special treatment for GNOME.

Michael