Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 installations?
Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning app and it should be installed by default IMHO.
Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora 6/7 desktops. I posted a bug for it: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097
Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b?
Thank you very much.
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 installations?
Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning app and it should be installed by default IMHO.
I see this form the opposite direction: I would like to drop K3B for good for my personal use, as it is *the only* desktop application I have using *the other* toolkit (and it does not integrate well with the rest of the desktop, is very slow to start etc.). note: my main usage scenario in using K3B is to write multisession disks, feature not available in nautilus-burn.
In some case the default choice in the Fedora desktop is the easiest to use and/or the most integrated solution, this is why Nautilus-burn is the recommended way to burn disks and on the same thinking, a gtk Bittorent client is preferred to Azureus (and I agree here, with a strong personal liking for Transmission and maybe Deluge).
Of course, the rule is not always true, as Firefox is preferred to Epiphany, and examples can continue on both sides.
Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora 6/7 desktops. I posted a bug for it: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097
Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b?
On 5/15/07, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 installations?
Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning app and it should be installed by default IMHO.
I see this form the opposite direction: I would like to drop K3B for good for my personal use, as it is *the only* desktop application I have using *the other* toolkit (and it does not integrate well with the rest
I installed k3b on my gnome desktop after and some kde dependencies got also installed. so what?!? is that a bad thing?!? Users don't care which toolkit an app uses - when they can use it and it works.
And all the hard work KDE and Gnome people are doing to make the usage of mixed apps the most pleasant experience possible should not be dismissed.
of the desktop, is very slow to start etc.). note: my main usage
Ok, 3 seconds it too much time to wait :) Then switch to windows, they boot much faster than linux :) Speed is not a sane argument here for me.
scenario in using K3B is to write multisession disks, feature not available in nautilus-burn.
I use it all the time, ISO burning the most, making cd and dvd compilations of multimedia... etc... formating DVD-RW and DVD+RW's...
In some case the default choice in the Fedora desktop is the easiest to use and/or the most integrated solution, this is why Nautilus-burn is the recommended way to burn disks and on the same thinking, a gtk
For basic burning it is ok, but most users need more. Trust me I know users habits.
Bittorent client is preferred to Azureus (and I agree here, with a strong personal liking for Transmission and maybe Deluge).
Of course, the rule is not always true, as Firefox is preferred to Epiphany, and examples can continue on both sides.
Firefox is a great example and also is OpenOffice on KDE where it feels a bit misplaced but is needed still.
Valent Turkovic wrote:
I installed k3b on my gnome desktop after and some kde dependencies got also installed. so what?!? is that a bad thing?!? Users don't care
Yes, wasted space is a bad thing: - on the media space is important, the liveCD had already to leave out useful applications due to space constraints; - for an online install there is much more to download; - more libraries will require more updates to be downloaded and installed in the future; - how about machines with a limited amount of RAM?
which toolkit an app uses - when they can use it and it works.
I detailed in another message why users care. Well, maybe not the users coming from Windows, where almost every application has its own incompatible look and feel...
Ok, 3 seconds it too much time to wait :) Then switch to windows, they boot much faster than linux :) Speed is not a sane argument here for me.
GnomeBaker is much faster to start (because the libraries are already in memory).
I use it all the time, ISO burning the most, making cd and dvd compilations of multimedia... etc... formating DVD-RW and DVD+RW's...
I believe you know about ISO burning with a right-click directly from Nautilus.
Of course, the rule is not always true, as Firefox is preferred to Epiphany, and examples can continue on both sides.
Firefox is a great example and also is OpenOffice on KDE where it feels a bit misplaced but is needed still.
I see quite a lot of KDE users preferring Konqueror instead of Firefox and OpenOffice.org was kicked out of the LiveCD because is too large.
On 5/16/07, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
I installed k3b on my gnome desktop after and some kde dependencies got also installed. so what?!? is that a bad thing?!? Users don't care
Yes, wasted space is a bad thing:
- on the media space is important, the liveCD had already to leave out
useful applications due to space constraints;
I didn't mention livecd. I'm talking about dvd installation.
- for an online install there is much more to download;
Well until they invent quantum data transfer and you have everything installed before you finish your thought about installing it.
For every app there is an package that needs to be installed - that is obvious and shouldn't even be mentioned.
- more libraries will require more updates to be downloaded and
installed in the future;
I'm very active in pushing deltarpm - if you really wan't to make a real change then get involved in presto yum plugin project.
- how about machines with a limited amount of RAM?
If somebody can run gnome or kde deskop I can bet you that it can run k3b.
which toolkit an app uses - when they can use it and it works.
I detailed in another message why users care. Well, maybe not the users coming from Windows, where almost every application has its own incompatible look and feel...
Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around and look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps.
Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any.
Ok, 3 seconds it too much time to wait :) Then switch to windows, they boot much faster than linux :) Speed is not a sane argument here for me.
GnomeBaker is much faster to start (because the libraries are already in memory).
I answered this in previous message - it is not because of libraries - please get to know how k3b works before you send such false information.
I have kde libraries loaded because I have krusader or some other kde app already running and it is still slower to start k3b - but only a second slower, and that is because k3b checks the system and configuration - NOT because of libraries need to load.
I use it all the time, ISO burning the most, making cd and dvd compilations of multimedia... etc... formating DVD-RW and DVD+RW's...
I believe you know about ISO burning with a right-click directly from Nautilus.
And I believe you know that nautilus doesn't have md5 calculator on it's right click integrated with the ISO burning. I know why I use k3b over nautilus.
Of course, the rule is not always true, as Firefox is preferred to Epiphany, and examples can continue on both sides.
Firefox is a great example and also is OpenOffice on KDE where it feels a bit misplaced but is needed still.
I see quite a lot of KDE users preferring Konqueror instead of Firefox and OpenOffice.org was kicked out of the LiveCD because is too large.
Great - one single most important app on the whole linux desktop and it is not on livecd - I really strongly believe that it is a really huge mistake. Ubuntu in then clearly a much much better live CD then IMHO - because if you wan't to present a "linux desktio" via LiveCD how would you do it without OpenOffice? What would you say to potentianl users - "You know there is this great office suite but we deleted it of the cd - but trust us it is great!" :)
And again I wasn't aware I was talking about live-cd.
Just to be clear - I don't use Ubuntu, except I test it and look at what have they done. I'm a fedora users and really love it...
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around and look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps.
Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any.
I already said I still use K3b (but I am looking for a change). And yes, I have Scribus installed, but not use it even once in a month.
It is not the best data source or users sample but have a look at http://mugshot.org/applications K3b is on the 71 place with 68 users, to put in perspective Firefox is 1st with 4272 and gedit 7th place with 1569.
ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 13:41 +0300, skrev Nicu Buculei:
It is not the best data source or users sample but have a look at http://mugshot.org/applications K3b is on the 71 place with 68 users, to put in perspective Firefox is 1st with 4272 and gedit 7th place with 1569.
Just adding the obligatory grain of salt here. Mugshot is still mainly used by willing testers with specialized background like development, QA or other Fedora tasks - as is evident by the prominent placement of GNOME-terminal. I have a feeling that the stats will level out once Mugshot becomes used by more regular users, like our mothers.
Lies, damn lies and statistics, at least untill we get better coverage, how many Mugshot users who send in data do we have, maybe 5000? FC6 alone is around 3 million users, even without the data screw provided by the current mugshot userbase, that's not even 1% of our existing userbase.
- David
It is not the best data source or users sample but have a look at http://mugshot.org/applications K3b is on the 71 place with 68 users, to put in perspective Firefox is 1st with 4272 and gedit 7th place with 1569.
As David said - 5000 users is hardly representative of overall fedora users. I use fedora from fc1 and I have never heard of Mugshot - and how many new users will use it even if they know about it? I guess not too many - and those who use it will be geeks, not your standard fedora desktop user.
ps. I just signed up - and I LOVE IT! :) it is the best web 2.0 site I saw! Great work... and Mugshot app for fedora is also great! Love it ;)
On 5/16/07, Valent Turkovic valent.turkovic@gmail.com wrote:
I use fedora from fc1 and I have never heard of Mugshot - and how many new users will use it even if they know about it? I guess not too many - and those who use it will be geeks, not your standard fedora desktop user.
First of all, you are making a pile of assumptions concerning what a "standard fedora desktop user" and what a "geek" is and assuming that "geeks" don't make up a majority of the installed userbase. This really needs to stop. You can not have sensible arguments predicated on your perception of what the average or standard or geek user is using.
There are only two ways to approach a constructive conversation concerning things like what default applications should be from a user perspective.
1) Define a narrowly tailored definition of ideal usage/user scenario, that in no way claims to be typical or average. You haven't really laided out a case as to why k3b is needed as a default. Just because it has the most functionality (in your view) doesn't mean its the best choice to meet any specific functionality requirements in a targetted usage case. Maximum functionality is not a usage case. Once people agree that this usage/user scenario is worth targeting, then everyone can discuss application choices based on that usage/user. Compromises then are made to best satisfy the competing demands of all targeted usage/user scenarios and technical constraints resulting in a solution that may not be optimal for any specific scenario.
2) Discussion using statistically significant metrics concerning applications in wide use, to help determine what functionality the targeted usage scenarios isn't providing that is commonly needed in the real-world installbase. This sort of thing is very hard to do because until Mugshot started doing what Mugshot is doing, there's no metric on application usage. If you care about trying to gauge what the userbase is actually using (installing is not using), then you should definitely be looking very closely at what Mugshot is doing with application metrics. Mugshot is pretty much the only tool right now that can claim to give any systematic picture of relative application usage in the fedora userbase. If Mugshot can be enabled on enough systems to give a representative sampling of the install base, then its your best and only hope at having real metrics for application usage to mull over instead of personal perceptions.
-jef"9 out of 10 Helen's agree, I miss grip"spaleta
On 5/16/07, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around and look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps.
Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any.
I already said I still use K3b (but I am looking for a change). And yes, I have Scribus installed, but not use it even once in a month.
It is not the best data source or users sample but have a look at http://mugshot.org/applications K3b is on the 71 place with 68 users, to put in perspective Firefox is 1st with 4272 and gedit 7th place with 1569.
k3b is the best rated cd burning app on that list (#70) with gnome-baker ranking as 94th and brasero on 102nd place.
On 5/16/07, Valent Turkovic valent.turkovic@gmail.com wrote:
k3b is the best rated cd burning app on that list (#70) with gnome-baker ranking as 94th and brasero on 102nd place.
I believe that nautilus-cd-burner, since its an extension to nautilus, isn't broken out of the stats for nautilus in mugshot. If that's true, then you have no way to compare usage the nautilus-cd-burner functionality to stand-alone burner apps. You might want to have a discussion with the mugshot developers about how they handle integration of nautilus extensions into their application stats.
-jef
Am Wed, 16 May 2007 12:27:25 +0200 schrieb "Valent Turkovic" valent.turkovic@gmail.com:
I detailed in another message why users care. Well, maybe not the users coming from Windows, where almost every application has its own incompatible look and feel...
Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around and look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps.
Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any.
/me raises his hand
I have two machines and they are strictly divided into Gnome/Xfce and KDE. That's because I really really hate the mixed file dialogs and handlings when putting all of them together. (Don't get me wrong: the gtk file dialog is ok, the kde file dialog is great but I don't want both of them in one session). Only my kde machine has some gtk apps (and of course system-config-*).
And yeah, I'm a member of kde-sig. :) And that's of course only my opinion as a user of both desktops.
Sebastian
Le mercredi 16 mai 2007 à 12:48 +0200, Sebastian Vahl a écrit :
Am Wed, 16 May 2007 12:27:25 +0200 schrieb "Valent Turkovic" valent.turkovic@gmail.com:
Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around and look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps.
Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any.
/me raises his hand
[nim@rousalka ~]$ rpm -qa|grep qt [nim@rousalka ~]$ rpm -qa|grep mono [nim@rousalka ~]$ rpm -q gtk2 gtk2-2.10.11-5.fc7.x86_64
Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any.
/me raises his hand
Just because of this you should join this kinds of discussions :) You are too biased :) No purists are allowed to discuss desktop users and their behaviors :)
I have two machines and they are strictly divided into Gnome/Xfce and KDE. That's because I really really hate the mixed file dialogs and handlings when putting all of them together. (Don't get me wrong: the gtk file dialog is ok, the kde file dialog is great but I don't want both of them in one session). Only my kde machine has some gtk apps (and of course system-config-*).
I don't see any harm in mixed dialogs... I see much greater problem when there is no app for burning on my system!
I installed fedora 7 and there is no burning app on my system. How can I know that I have to go in nautilus to Go menue and then click on CD/DVD burning? Can you please explain that? There is no excuse for not at least putting a link to gnome menu for burn:/// and calling it "CD/DVD Burning application"
Valent Turkovic wrote:
I don't see any harm in mixed dialogs... I see much greater problem when there is no app for burning on my system!
I installed fedora 7 and there is no burning app on my system. How can I know that I have to go in nautilus to Go menue and then click on CD/DVD burning? Can you please explain that? There is no excuse for not at least putting a link to gnome menu for burn:/// and calling it "CD/DVD Burning application"
Make sure a box is checked in gnome-volume-properties and nautilus-burn is started when you insert a blank.
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 12:27 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
On 5/16/07, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
<snip>
I use it all the time, ISO burning the most, making cd and dvd compilations of multimedia... etc... formating DVD-RW and DVD+RW's...
I believe you know about ISO burning with a right-click directly from Nautilus.
And I believe you know that nautilus doesn't have md5 calculator on it's right click integrated with the ISO burning. I know why I use k3b over nautilus.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Valent Turkovic escribió:
Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 installations?
Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning app and it should be installed by default IMHO.
Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora 6/7 desktops. I posted a bug for it: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097
Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b?
Thank you very much.
I would assume that the main reason not to include it, is that it requires a hefty amount of KDE packages (almost a small installation of the bulk of KDE) to run. It requires KDE-base, KDE-multimedia (not to mention QT) and maybe I'm skipping a few others. Sure, it is a good program, and by all means it should be on by default in every Fedora KDE installation. If you don't mind cross DE programs, you can also install it if you are using GNOME, XFCE, Fluxbox or whatever other DE you want (which is what I do, anyway). Bottom line is that K3B is more of an option than a requirement.
For those GNOME users, there're alternatives like Gnome Baker (successor of the old gToaster, which at the time was THE best CD burning front end for Linux) or the already mentioned nautilus-burn. Sure, K3B is great, but it should be part or not of the default installation whether you'll be installing KDE or not, not on by default, at least that's my opinion.
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 installations?
Best is certainly subjective. If I a GNOME user I certainly don't want a whole bunch of KDE packages to have K3b installed. If I just want to burn some files quickly nautilus cd burning is more suitable. For other purposes there are programs like Brasero.
Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning app and it should be installed by default IMHO.
Installed by default in where? The GNOME based live images wouldn't have enough space. KDE based live images already have them. If you choose KDE in "Fedora" spin you get k3b by default too.
Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora 6/7 desktops. I posted a bug for it: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097
Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b?
Merge will get such programs more maintainers hopefully.
Rahul
On 5/15/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 installations?
Best is certainly subjective. If I a GNOME user I certainly don't want a whole bunch of KDE packages to have K3b installed. If I just want to burn some files quickly nautilus cd burning is more suitable. For other purposes there are programs like Brasero.
I'm not only giving my own personal opinion, but also of a few other people who switched from windows to linux desktop. And they love k3b more than they did Nero on the "dark" side :)
Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning app and it should be installed by default IMHO.
Installed by default in where? The GNOME based live images wouldn't have enough space. KDE based live images already have them. If you choose KDE in "Fedora" spin you get k3b by default too.
I installed gnome desktiop from Fedora 7 test 4 dvd, and I feel that from DVD it should be installed by default no matter what DE I choose.
Gnome has some programs that KDE doesn't and also is true for the KDE (qt). There is no point sticking to only one platform - the best apps from whole array of linux apps should be presented to new users. Users don't care it it's qt or not.
Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora 6/7 desktops. I posted a bug for it: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097
Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b?
Merge will get such programs more maintainers hopefully.
Rahul
Great !
-- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
Valent Turkovic wrote:
I'm not only giving my own personal opinion, but also of a few other people who switched from windows to linux desktop. And they love k3b more than they did Nero on the "dark" side :)
Out of curiosity, have those users tried GnomeBaker? Maybe Brassero also? Which advantages have K3b over those? (beside support for mp3, which is not enabled in Fedora anyway)
I installed gnome desktiop from Fedora 7 test 4 dvd, and I feel that from DVD it should be installed by default no matter what DE I choose.
Not if Gnome have a comparable native alternative.
Gnome has some programs that KDE doesn't and also is true for the KDE (qt). There is no point sticking to only one platform - the best apps from whole array of linux apps should be presented to new users. Users don't care it it's qt or not.
Well, on my desktop K3b look alien (I can tell from a mile it use another set of widgets) and is very slow to start. Its Open/Save dialogs look strange and do not include the bookmarks available in all other applications, the order of "OK"/"Cancel" buttons in dialogs is weird, the menu structure is bad (instead of Edit > Preferences it have Settings). I could go with this more and more.
On 5/16/07, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
I'm not only giving my own personal opinion, but also of a few other people who switched from windows to linux desktop. And they love k3b more than they did Nero on the "dark" side :)
Out of curiosity, have those users tried GnomeBaker? Maybe Brassero also? Which advantages have K3b over those? (beside support for mp3, which is not enabled in Fedora anyway)
Yes. They tested a few and still came back to k3b. Why? I know only they said it is the best they used - I didn't go into details.
I installed gnome desktiop from Fedora 7 test 4 dvd, and I feel that from DVD it should be installed by default no matter what DE I choose.
Not if Gnome have a comparable native alternative.
Ok, here I agree. But not even brasero is installed by default on my gnome desktop in fedora core 6 or fedora 7 test 4.
Gnome has some programs that KDE doesn't and also is true for the KDE (qt). There is no point sticking to only one platform - the best apps from whole array of linux apps should be presented to new users. Users don't care it it's qt or not.
Well, on my desktop K3b look alien (I can tell from a mile it use
I think you are a bit too biased to make this claim. I alt-tab firefox-nautilus-thunderbird-openoffice-evolution and then k3b... and when I switch to k3b it doesn't look at least out of place. It looks like a native linux app - and in place. I don't judge an app by widgets set and think that is discriminating.
another set of widgets) and is very slow to start.
I (and probably over 50% of users) have one or other app that uses other widget set - on my system k3b launces in 2 seconds, and that is not because of time to load libraries but because it test the system and devices during launch - if you aren't familiar how k3b works I suggest you use it first and then claim that it is slow because of kde libraries.
On my desktop k3b
Its Open/Save dialogs look strange and do not include the bookmarks available in all other applications, the order of "OK"/"Cancel" buttons in dialogs is weird, the menu structure is bad (instead of Edit > Preferences it have Settings). I could go with this more and more
Come on, are you really serious? Almost every app has differently places some buttons or menu... Try using some really different app like gaim ie. pidgin - what would you say to that app?
-- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro
-- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 12:10 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
Its Open/Save dialogs look strange and do not include the bookmarks available in all other applications, the order of "OK"/"Cancel" buttons in dialogs is
weird,
the menu structure is bad (instead of Edit > Preferences it have Settings). I could go with this more and more
Come on, are you really serious? Almost every app has differently places some buttons or menu... Try using some really different app like gaim ie. pidgin - what would you say to that app?
The whole point of the GNOME HIG is so that all core GNOME applications are consistent in look and feel. GAIM/Pidgin is not a core GNOME application and makes little effort to follow the HIG, however if you look at the UI for Gossip you will see an IM client that integrates far better with GNOME.
One of the reasons that Apple has been praised for its desktop is because of the ruthless application of their HIG to all parts of the system. This means that the learning curve for new users is significantly lower.
Keith.
On 5/16/07, Keith Sharp kms@passback.co.uk wrote:
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 12:10 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
Its Open/Save dialogs look strange and do not include the bookmarks available in all other applications, the order of "OK"/"Cancel" buttons in dialogs is
weird,
the menu structure is bad (instead of Edit > Preferences it have Settings). I could go with this more and more
Come on, are you really serious? Almost every app has differently places some buttons or menu... Try using some really different app like gaim ie. pidgin - what would you say to that app?
The whole point of the GNOME HIG is so that all core GNOME applications are consistent in look and feel. GAIM/Pidgin is not a core GNOME application and makes little effort to follow the HIG, however if you look at the UI for Gossip you will see an IM client that integrates far better with GNOME.
I haven't used gossip more that 6 months so in order to be up-to-date I just installed it.
I don't see any better integration from gossip with Gnome in any case - I would say that they are both nicely integrated with Gnome desktop. Second thing is feature wise you can't even compare the two. Gossip is jabber client and gaim is general IM client. I use ICQ, jabber and other IM protocols. Gossip can't do anything beside jabber protocol. Plus gossip crashed 4-5 times before it connected to our local network jabber server!!! Gaim is much more stable! I prefer stability and features of gaim any time over gossip's "Gnome HIG compatibillity" and better "Gnome integration" - especially because gaim integrates great with the gnome desktop.
One of the reasons that Apple has been praised for its desktop is because of the ruthless application of their HIG to all parts of the system. This means that the learning curve for new users is significantly lower.
Ok. How many apps does apple have on a default OSX fresh installed desktop? I would say 100%. And when users customize the desktop I would dare to say that there is still 50% of Apple apps on average desktop and 50% of other software developers.
How many apps are Gnome apps on default Fedora install? They probably all are gtk based but probably less than 30% are gnome. When users customize their desktops I guess this number falls drastically...
Gnome can only apply it's HIG to it's apps and hope others do the same. But even with HIG there are some nonsenses in gnome like not being able to alt-tab when dragging a file with a mouse - why?!?
So you can't expect Fedora to be in the same class as apple because Fedora doesn't make any of the core apps for "Fedora desktop" - also is also true for Gnome and KDE teams because they don't make Firefox and OpenOffice...
Valent.
ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 19:53 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic:
I don't see any better integration from gossip with Gnome in any case
- I would say that they are both nicely integrated with Gnome desktop.
Second thing is feature wise you can't even compare the two. Gossip is jabber client and gaim is general IM client. I use ICQ, jabber and other IM protocols. Gossip can't do anything beside jabber protocol. Plus gossip crashed 4-5 times before it connected to our local network jabber server!!! Gaim is much more stable! I prefer stability and features of gaim any time over gossip's "Gnome HIG compatibillity" and better "Gnome integration" - especially because gaim integrates great with the gnome desktop.
I use Gossip for about 16 hours a day without a crash. It was also forked into the Empathy program to support Telepathy so we could get support for all manners of functionality including VoIP, Videoconferencing and naturally multiple IM protocols.
Using Empathy I'm currently chatting on MSN and Jabber (only protocols I use currently), works fine - we should be able to offer users an improved communications experience with gar better integration and a more userfriendly interface in F8 using Empathy.
- David
On 5/16/07, David Nielsen david@lovesunix.net wrote:
ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 19:53 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic:
I don't see any better integration from gossip with Gnome in any case
- I would say that they are both nicely integrated with Gnome desktop.
Second thing is feature wise you can't even compare the two. Gossip is jabber client and gaim is general IM client. I use ICQ, jabber and other IM protocols. Gossip can't do anything beside jabber protocol. Plus gossip crashed 4-5 times before it connected to our local network jabber server!!! Gaim is much more stable! I prefer stability and features of gaim any time over gossip's "Gnome HIG compatibillity" and better "Gnome integration" - especially because gaim integrates great with the gnome desktop.
I use Gossip for about 16 hours a day without a crash. It was also forked into the Empathy program to support Telepathy so we could get support for all manners of functionality including VoIP, Videoconferencing and naturally multiple IM protocols.
Gossip works ok now... but for some reason it crashed a few times on account creation.
Using Empathy I'm currently chatting on MSN and Jabber (only protocols I use currently), works fine - we should be able to offer users an improved communications experience with gar better integration and a more userfriendly interface in F8 using Empathy.
Is there some repository I can use to install and test empathy with fedora 7?
- David
-- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 20:14 +0200, David Nielsen wrote:
ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 19:53 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic:
I don't see any better integration from gossip with Gnome in any case
- I would say that they are both nicely integrated with Gnome desktop.
Second thing is feature wise you can't even compare the two. Gossip is jabber client and gaim is general IM client. I use ICQ, jabber and other IM protocols. Gossip can't do anything beside jabber protocol. Plus gossip crashed 4-5 times before it connected to our local network jabber server!!! Gaim is much more stable! I prefer stability and features of gaim any time over gossip's "Gnome HIG compatibillity" and better "Gnome integration" - especially because gaim integrates great with the gnome desktop.
I use Gossip for about 16 hours a day without a crash. It was also forked into the Empathy program to support Telepathy so we could get support for all manners of functionality including VoIP, Videoconferencing and naturally multiple IM protocols.
Using Empathy I'm currently chatting on MSN and Jabber (only protocols I use currently), works fine - we should be able to offer users an improved communications experience with gar better integration and a more userfriendly interface in F8 using Empathy.
After F7 is released, I'll be pushing an update for gossip-0.24 which will support the use of the telepathy-plugins for those adventurous souls.
Regarding Empathy I'm a little skeptical of it's readiness for inclusion in Fedora since it's only had 2 releases so far. ;)
Later, /B
ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 15:48 -0400, skrev Brian Pepple:
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 20:14 +0200, David Nielsen wrote:
ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 19:53 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic:
I don't see any better integration from gossip with Gnome in any case
- I would say that they are both nicely integrated with Gnome desktop.
Second thing is feature wise you can't even compare the two. Gossip is jabber client and gaim is general IM client. I use ICQ, jabber and other IM protocols. Gossip can't do anything beside jabber protocol. Plus gossip crashed 4-5 times before it connected to our local network jabber server!!! Gaim is much more stable! I prefer stability and features of gaim any time over gossip's "Gnome HIG compatibillity" and better "Gnome integration" - especially because gaim integrates great with the gnome desktop.
I use Gossip for about 16 hours a day without a crash. It was also forked into the Empathy program to support Telepathy so we could get support for all manners of functionality including VoIP, Videoconferencing and naturally multiple IM protocols.
Using Empathy I'm currently chatting on MSN and Jabber (only protocols I use currently), works fine - we should be able to offer users an improved communications experience with gar better integration and a more userfriendly interface in F8 using Empathy.
After F7 is released, I'll be pushing an update for gossip-0.24 which will support the use of the telepathy-plugins for those adventurous souls.
Regarding Empathy I'm a little skeptical of it's readiness for inclusion in Fedora since it's only had 2 releases so far. ;)
I've been giving it a good run for it's money, it's not bugfree but it's surprisingly stable given the that it's in the early stages of development.
- David
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Gnome can only apply it's HIG to it's apps and hope others do the same. But even with HIG there are some nonsenses in gnome like not being able to alt-tab when dragging a file with a mouse - why?!?
So you can't expect Fedora to be in the same class as apple because Fedora doesn't make any of the core apps for "Fedora desktop" - also is also true for Gnome and KDE teams because they don't make Firefox and OpenOffice...
I don't get it: Fedora can't be in the same class as Apple and we should just stop trying?
Fedora does not make the core apps indeed, but a lot of Fedora developers work upstream (or are even maintainers) on those applications.
ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 10:48 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic:
Why at least isn't Brasero installed by default? I didn't wvwn know that there is a program called brasero. Now I installed it and it is really nice. At lease brasero should be installed by default.
Because burning as functionality doesn't warrent a seperate application, that is a historical design mistake made primarily because integration was not possible in the desktops at the time when burners became affordable for everyone.
GNOME already provides me with burning functionality, burn an iso by clicking it, want a music cd then create it in your music player (I use Banshee but rhythmbox does this also) and so on.
I'd opt for making the integration more visible rather than doing the cope out of including a seperate application. We could extend f-spot if it doesn't already support photoCDs so you could compile one directly in your photo management application and likewise for other use cases which to me seems like a much better ideal to strive for.
- David Nielsen
On Wednesday 16 May 2007 12:20:29 David Nielsen wrote:
Because burning as functionality doesn't warrent a seperate application, that is a historical design mistake made primarily because integration was not possible in the desktops at the time when burners became affordable for everyone.
GNOME already provides me with burning functionality, burn an iso by clicking it, want a music cd then create it in your music player (I use Banshee but rhythmbox does this also) and so on.
I'd opt for making the integration more visible rather than doing the cope out of including a seperate application. We could extend f-spot if it doesn't already support photoCDs so you could compile one directly in your photo management application and likewise for other use cases which to me seems like a much better ideal to strive for.
+10.
On Wednesday 16 May 2007 12:20:29 David Nielsen wrote:
I'd opt for making the integration more visible rather than doing the cope out of including a seperate application.
There's zip reason a separate application can not be integrated. See sound-juicer in rhythmbox. All you need is to pass info from the picture/sound/whatever app to the burning app so it starts in the right mode without requiring the user to re-enter info.
I'd rather have a full-featured integrated gnome burning app than a limited nautilus mode that forces users to search and install a non-integrated burning app as soon as they have non-trivial burning needs.
You'll note that historically all the fancy integrated nautilus views have been replaced by dedicated apps in GNOME. Nautilus modes do not scale. They embark too much "file manager"-oriented garbage that clutters the UI and leaves no place for more task-oriented menus and widgets.
On 5/17/07, Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mailhot@laposte.net wrote:
On Wednesday 16 May 2007 12:20:29 David Nielsen wrote:
I'd opt for making the integration more visible rather than doing the cope out of including a seperate application.
There's zip reason a separate application can not be integrated. See sound-juicer in rhythmbox. All you need is to pass info from the picture/sound/whatever app to the burning app so it starts in the right mode without requiring the user to re-enter info.
I'd rather have a full-featured integrated gnome burning app than a limited nautilus mode that forces users to search and install a non-integrated burning app as soon as they have non-trivial burning needs.
You'll note that historically all the fancy integrated nautilus views have been replaced by dedicated apps in GNOME. Nautilus modes do not scale. They embark too much "file manager"-oriented garbage that clutters the UI and leaves no place for more task-oriented menus and widgets.
Amen to that! :) Please don't thing users are satisfied with limited nautilus burning... if you do any study you will see they are not!
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 installations?
Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning app and it should be installed by default IMHO.
Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora 6/7 desktops. I posted a bug for it: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097
Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b?
Thank you very much.
Personally I'm glad they keep things to a minimum. It seems like every PC I've used for media mastering is a little odd.
In general, I've found k3b and nautilus to be coaster ovens. I don't even bother anymore.
For DVDs I use mkisofs and growisofs on the command line.
For CDs I use xcdroast.
--- John
On 5/18/07, Skunk Worx skunkworx@verizon.net wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 installations?
Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning app and it should be installed by default IMHO.
Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora 6/7 desktops. I posted a bug for it: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097
Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b?
Thank you very much.
Personally I'm glad they keep things to a minimum. It seems like every PC I've used for media mastering is a little odd.
In general, I've found k3b and nautilus to be coaster ovens. I don't even bother anymore.
For DVDs I use mkisofs and growisofs on the command line.
For CDs I use xcdroast.
I know that powerusers have milion an one way to bake a cake... but what message do you send to new users? DOn't use linux... it's not for you!?!
k3b works great on all mine systems (3 laptops and 1 deskop with every hardware and linux distro mix you can think off).
Valent Turkovic wrote:
On 5/18/07, Skunk Worx skunkworx@verizon.net wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b?
Personally I'm glad they keep things to a minimum. It seems like every PC I've used for media mastering is a little odd.
I know that powerusers have milion an one way to bake a cake... but what message do you send to new users? DOn't use linux... it's not for you!?!
I don't think this message is being sent. The Fedora online help clearly explains how to write using the default gnome tools.
One of the most common complaints about Linux is there are too many ways to do things.
The Fedora KDE live-cd has k3b on it. It's kind of nice to have the option to try either desktop then decide to install your favorite on the hard drive.
k3b works great on all mine systems (3 laptops and 1 deskop with every hardware and linux distro mix you can think off).
I'm not a power user, I had to google to see all the various problems people were having with reading and writing on various hardware and software platforms to learn how to deal with them.
My experience differs from yours. Last year about 1/8 writers I tested had issues requiring firmware or software updates before they would reliably burn using...anything.
--- John
On Thu, 2007-05-17 at 22:15 -0700, Skunk Worx wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 installations?
Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning app and it should be installed by default IMHO.
Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora 6/7 desktops. I posted a bug for it: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097
Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b?
Thank you very much.
Personally I'm glad they keep things to a minimum. It seems like every PC I've used for media mastering is a little odd.
In general, I've found k3b and nautilus to be coaster ovens. I don't even bother anymore.
If you can, get yourself some CD-RW and file bugs. I don't see what nautilus-cd-burner would be doing differently from xcdroast in terms of burning.
For DVDs I use mkisofs and growisofs on the command line.
nautilus-cd-burner uses growisofs as well, and burns directly to DVD with the latest versions. I'm not sure how n-c-b would work any differently from growisofs on the command-line.
For CDs I use xcdroast.
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
-
Bastien Nocera -
Brian Pepple -
David Nielsen -
Gain Paolo Mureddu -
Jef Spaleta -
Jesse Keating -
Keith Sharp -
Nicolas Mailhot -
Nicu Buculei -
Rahul Sundaram -
Sebastian Vahl -
Skunk Worx -
Valent Turkovic