fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default?

[Valent Turkovic]

Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7
installations?

Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning
app and it should be installed by default IMHO.

Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora
6/7 desktops.
I posted a bug for it:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097

Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b?

Thank you very much.

-- 
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registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241
Skype: valent.turkovic

[Nicu Buculei]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora
> 6/7
>  installations?
>  
>  Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning
>  app and it should be installed by default IMHO. 
I see this form the opposite direction: I would like to drop K3B for 
good for my personal use, as it is *the only* desktop application I have 
using *the other* toolkit (and it does not integrate well with the rest 
of the desktop, is very slow to start etc.). note: my main usage 
scenario in using K3B is to write multisession  disks, feature not 
available in nautilus-burn.

In some case the default choice in the Fedora desktop is the easiest to 
use and/or the most integrated solution, this is why Nautilus-burn is 
the recommended way to burn disks and on the same thinking, a gtk 
Bittorent client is preferred to Azureus (and I agree here, with a 
strong personal liking for Transmission and maybe Deluge).

Of course, the rule is not always true, as Firefox is preferred to 
Epiphany, and examples can continue on both sides.

>  Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on
> Fedora
>  6/7 desktops.
>  I posted a bug for it:
>  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097
>  
>  Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b? 

-- 
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro

[Valent Turkovic]

On 5/15/07, Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora(a)nicubunu.ro&gt; wrote:
>  Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  > Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7
>  > installations?
>  >
>  > Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning
>  > app and it should be installed by default IMHO.
>
>  I see this form the opposite direction: I would like to drop K3B for
>  good for my personal use, as it is *the only* desktop application I have
>  using *the other* toolkit (and it does not integrate well with the rest 
I installed k3b on my gnome desktop after and some kde dependencies
got also installed. so what?!? is that a bad thing?!? Users don't care
which toolkit an app uses - when they can use it and it works.

And all the hard work KDE and Gnome people are doing to make the usage
of mixed apps the most pleasant experience possible should not be
dismissed.

>  of the desktop, is very slow to start etc.). note: my main usage
Ok, 3 seconds it too much time to wait :) Then switch to windows, they
boot much faster than linux :) Speed is not a sane argument here for
me.

>  scenario in using K3B is to write multisession  disks, feature not
>  available in nautilus-burn. 
I use it all the time, ISO burning the most, making cd and dvd
compilations of multimedia... etc... formating DVD-RW and DVD+RW's...

>  In some case the default choice in the Fedora desktop is the easiest
> to
>  use and/or the most integrated solution, this is why Nautilus-burn is
>  the recommended way to burn disks and on the same thinking, a gtk 
For basic burning it is ok, but most users need more. Trust me I know
users habits.

>  Bittorent client is preferred to Azureus (and I agree here, with a
>  strong personal liking for Transmission and maybe Deluge).
>
>  Of course, the rule is not always true, as Firefox is preferred to
>  Epiphany, and examples can continue on both sides. 
Firefox is a great example and also is OpenOffice on KDE where it
feels a bit misplaced but is needed still.

[Nicu Buculei]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  
>  I installed k3b on my gnome desktop after and some kde dependencies
>  got also installed. so what?!? is that a bad thing?!? Users don't care 
Yes, wasted space is a bad thing:
- on the media space is important, the liveCD had already to leave out 
useful applications due to space constraints;
- for an online install there is much more to download;
- more libraries will require  more updates to be downloaded and 
installed in the future;
- how about machines with a limited amount of RAM?

>  which toolkit an app uses - when they can use it and it works.
I detailed in another message why users care. Well, maybe not the users 
coming from Windows, where almost every application has its own 
incompatible look and feel...

>  Ok, 3 seconds it too much time to wait :) Then switch to windows,
> they
>  boot much faster than linux :) Speed is not a sane argument here for
>  me. 
GnomeBaker is much faster to start (because the libraries are already in 
memory).

>  I use it all the time, ISO burning the most, making cd and dvd
>  compilations of multimedia... etc... formating DVD-RW and DVD+RW's... 
I believe you know about ISO burning with a right-click directly from 
Nautilus.

> > Of course, the rule is not always true, as Firefox is preferred
> to
> > Epiphany, and examples can continue on both sides.
>  
>  Firefox is a great example and also is OpenOffice on KDE where it
>  feels a bit misplaced but is needed still. 
I see quite a lot of KDE users preferring Konqueror instead of Firefox 
and OpenOffice.org was kicked out of the LiveCD because is too large.


-- 
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro

[Valent Turkovic]

On 5/16/07, Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora(a)nicubunu.ro&gt; wrote:
>  Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  >
>  > I installed k3b on my gnome desktop after and some kde dependencies
>  > got also installed. so what?!? is that a bad thing?!? Users don't care
>
>  Yes, wasted space is a bad thing:
>  - on the media space is important, the liveCD had already to leave out
>  useful applications due to space constraints; 
I didn't mention livecd. I'm talking about dvd installation.

>  - for an online install there is much more to download; 
Well until they invent quantum data transfer and you have everything
installed before you finish your thought about installing it.

For every app there is an package that needs to be installed - that is
obvious and shouldn't even be mentioned.

>  - more libraries will require  more updates to be downloaded and
>  installed in the future; 
I'm very active in pushing deltarpm - if you really wan't to make a
real change then get involved in presto yum plugin project.

>  - how about machines with a limited amount of RAM? 
If somebody can run gnome or kde deskop I can bet you that it can run k3b.

>  > which toolkit an app uses - when they can use it and it works.
>
>  I detailed in another message why users care. Well, maybe not the users
>  coming from Windows, where almost every application has its own
>  incompatible look and feel... 
Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around and
look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in
mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps.

Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that
uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any.

>  > Ok, 3 seconds it too much time to wait :) Then switch to
> windows, they
>  > boot much faster than linux :) Speed is not a sane argument here for
>  > me.
>
>  GnomeBaker is much faster to start (because the libraries are already in
>  memory). 
I answered this in previous message - it is not because of libraries -
please get to know how k3b works before you send such false
information.

I have kde libraries loaded because I have krusader or some other kde
app already running and it is still slower to start k3b - but only a
second slower, and that is because k3b checks the system and
configuration - NOT because of libraries need to load.

>  > I use it all the time, ISO burning the most, making cd and dvd
>  > compilations of multimedia... etc... formating DVD-RW and DVD+RW's...
>
>  I believe you know about ISO burning with a right-click directly from
>  Nautilus. 
And I believe you know that nautilus doesn't have md5 calculator on
it's right click integrated with the ISO burning.
I know why I use k3b over nautilus.

>  >> Of course, the rule is not always true, as Firefox is
> preferred to
>  >> Epiphany, and examples can continue on both sides.
>  >
>  > Firefox is a great example and also is OpenOffice on KDE where it
>  > feels a bit misplaced but is needed still.
>
>  I see quite a lot of KDE users preferring Konqueror instead of Firefox
>  and OpenOffice.org was kicked out of the LiveCD because is too large. 
Great - one single most important app on the whole linux desktop and
it is not on livecd - I really strongly believe that it is a really
huge mistake. Ubuntu in then clearly a much much better live CD then
IMHO - because if you wan't to present a "linux desktio" via LiveCD
how would you do it without OpenOffice? What would you say to
potentianl users - "You know there is this great office suite but we
deleted it of the cd - but trust us it is great!" :)

And again I wasn't aware I was talking about live-cd.

[Valent Turkovic]

-- 
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241
Skype: valent.turkovic


On 5/16/07, Valent Turkovic <valent.turkovic(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On 5/16/07, Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora(a)nicubunu.ro&gt; wrote:
>  > Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  > >
>  > > I installed k3b on my gnome desktop after and some kde dependencies
>  > > got also installed. so what?!? is that a bad thing?!? Users don't care
>  >
>  > Yes, wasted space is a bad thing:
>  > - on the media space is important, the liveCD had already to leave out
>  > useful applications due to space constraints;
>
>  I didn't mention livecd. I'm talking about dvd installation.
>
>  > - for an online install there is much more to download;
>
>  Well until they invent quantum data transfer and you have everything
>  installed before you finish your thought about installing it.
>
>  For every app there is an package that needs to be installed - that is
>  obvious and shouldn't even be mentioned.
>
>  > - more libraries will require  more updates to be downloaded and
>  > installed in the future;
>
>  I'm very active in pushing deltarpm - if you really wan't to make a
>  real change then get involved in presto yum plugin project.
>
>  > - how about machines with a limited amount of RAM?
>
>  If somebody can run gnome or kde deskop I can bet you that it can run k3b.
>
>  > > which toolkit an app uses - when they can use it and it works.
>  >
>  > I detailed in another message why users care. Well, maybe not the users
>  > coming from Windows, where almost every application has its own
>  > incompatible look and feel...
>
>  Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around and
>  look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in
>  mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps.
>
>  Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that
>  uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any.
>
>  > > Ok, 3 seconds it too much time to wait :) Then switch to windows, they
>  > > boot much faster than linux :) Speed is not a sane argument here for
>  > > me.
>  >
>  > GnomeBaker is much faster to start (because the libraries are already in
>  > memory).
>
>  I answered this in previous message - it is not because of libraries -
>  please get to know how k3b works before you send such false
>  information.
>
>  I have kde libraries loaded because I have krusader or some other kde
>  app already running and it is still slower to start k3b - but only a
>  second slower, and that is because k3b checks the system and
>  configuration - NOT because of libraries need to load.
>
>  > > I use it all the time, ISO burning the most, making cd and dvd
>  > > compilations of multimedia... etc... formating DVD-RW and DVD+RW's...
>  >
>  > I believe you know about ISO burning with a right-click directly from
>  > Nautilus.
>
>  And I believe you know that nautilus doesn't have md5 calculator on
>  it's right click integrated with the ISO burning.
>  I know why I use k3b over nautilus.
>
>  > >> Of course, the rule is not always true, as Firefox is preferred to
>  > >> Epiphany, and examples can continue on both sides.
>  > >
>  > > Firefox is a great example and also is OpenOffice on KDE where it
>  > > feels a bit misplaced but is needed still.
>  >
>  > I see quite a lot of KDE users preferring Konqueror instead of Firefox
>  > and OpenOffice.org was kicked out of the LiveCD because is too large.
>
>  Great - one single most important app on the whole linux desktop and
>  it is not on livecd - I really strongly believe that it is a really
>  huge mistake. Ubuntu in then clearly a much much better live CD then
>  IMHO - because if you wan't to present a "linux desktio" via LiveCD
>  how would you do it without OpenOffice? What would you say to
>  potentianl users - "You know there is this great office suite but we
>  deleted it of the cd - but trust us it is great!" :)
>
>  And again I wasn't aware I was talking about live-cd.
>

[Valent Turkovic]

Just to be clear - I don't use Ubuntu, except I test it and look at
what have they done.
I'm a fedora users and really love it...

[Nicu Buculei]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around and
>  look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in
>  mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps.
>  
>  Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that
>  uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any. 
I already said I still use K3b (but I am looking for a change). And yes, 
I have Scribus installed, but not use it even once in a month.

It is not the best data source or users sample but have a look at 
http://mugshot.org/applications
K3b is on the 71 place with 68 users, to put in perspective Firefox is 
1st with 4272 and gedit 7th place with 1569.

-- 
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro

[David Nielsen]

ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 13:41 +0300, skrev Nicu Buculei:

>  It is not the best data source or users sample but have a look at 
>  http://mugshot.org/applications
>  K3b is on the 71 place with 68 users, to put in perspective Firefox is 
>  1st with 4272 and gedit 7th place with 1569. 
Just adding the obligatory grain of salt here. Mugshot is still mainly
used by willing testers with specialized background like development, QA
or other Fedora tasks - as is evident by the prominent placement of
GNOME-terminal. I have a feeling that the stats will level out once
Mugshot becomes used by more regular users, like our mothers. 

Lies, damn lies and statistics, at least untill we get better coverage,
how many Mugshot users who send in data do we have, maybe 5000? FC6
alone is around 3 million users, even without the data screw provided by
the current mugshot userbase, that's not even 1% of our existing
userbase.

- David

[Valent Turkovic]

>  It is not the best data source or users sample but have a look at
>  http://mugshot.org/applications
>  K3b is on the 71 place with 68 users, to put in perspective Firefox is
>  1st with 4272 and gedit 7th place with 1569. 
As David said - 5000 users is hardly representative of overall fedora
users. I use fedora from fc1 and I have never heard of Mugshot - and
how many new users will use it even if they know about it? I guess not
too many - and those who use it will be geeks, not your standard
fedora desktop user.

ps. I just signed up - and I LOVE IT! :) it is the best web 2.0 site I
saw! Great work... and Mugshot app for fedora is also great! Love it
;)

[Jef Spaleta]

On 5/16/07, Valent Turkovic <valent.turkovic(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  I use fedora from fc1 and I have never heard of Mugshot - and
>  how many new users will use it even if they know about it?
>  I guess not too many - and those who use it will be geeks, not your standard
>  fedora desktop user. 
First of all, you are making a pile of assumptions concerning what a
"standard fedora desktop user" and what a "geek" is and assuming that
"geeks" don't make up a majority of the installed userbase.  This
really needs to stop.  You can not have sensible arguments predicated
on your perception of what the average or standard or geek user is
using.

There are only two ways to approach a constructive conversation
concerning things like what default applications should be from a user
perspective.

1) Define a narrowly tailored definition of ideal usage/user scenario,
that in no way claims to be typical or average. You haven't really
laided out a case as to why k3b is needed as a default.  Just because
it has the most functionality (in your view) doesn't mean its the best
choice to meet any specific functionality requirements in a targetted
usage case. Maximum functionality is not a usage case. Once people
agree that this usage/user scenario is worth targeting, then everyone
can discuss application choices based on that usage/user.  Compromises
then are made to best satisfy the competing demands of all targeted
usage/user scenarios and technical constraints resulting in a solution
that may not be optimal for any specific scenario.

2) Discussion using statistically significant metrics concerning
applications in wide use, to help determine what functionality the
targeted usage scenarios isn't providing that is commonly needed in
the real-world installbase. This sort of thing is very hard to do
because until Mugshot started doing what Mugshot is doing, there's no
metric on application usage.
If you care about trying to gauge what the userbase is actually using
(installing is not using), then you should definitely be looking very
closely at what Mugshot is doing with application metrics.  Mugshot is
pretty much the only tool right now that can claim to give any
systematic picture of relative application usage in the fedora
userbase.  If Mugshot can be enabled on enough systems to give a
representative sampling of the install base, then its your best and
only hope at having real metrics for application usage to mull over
instead of personal perceptions.

-jef"9 out of 10 Helen's agree, I miss grip"spaleta

[Valent Turkovic]

On 5/16/07, Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora(a)nicubunu.ro&gt; wrote:
>  Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  > Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around and
>  > look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in
>  > mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps.
>  >
>  > Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that
>  > uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any.
>
>  I already said I still use K3b (but I am looking for a change). And yes,
>  I have Scribus installed, but not use it even once in a month.
>
>  It is not the best data source or users sample but have a look at
>  http://mugshot.org/applications
>  K3b is on the 71 place with 68 users, to put in perspective Firefox is
>  1st with 4272 and gedit 7th place with 1569. 
k3b is the best rated cd burning app on that list (#70) with
gnome-baker ranking as 94th and brasero on 102nd place.

[Jef Spaleta]

On 5/16/07, Valent Turkovic <valent.turkovic(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  k3b is the best rated cd burning app on that list (#70) with
>  gnome-baker ranking as 94th and brasero on 102nd place. 
I believe that nautilus-cd-burner, since its an extension to nautilus,
isn't broken out of the stats for nautilus in mugshot.  If that's
true, then you have no way to compare usage the nautilus-cd-burner
functionality to stand-alone burner apps.  You might want to have a
discussion with the mugshot developers about how they handle
integration of nautilus extensions into their application stats.

-jef

[Sebastian Vahl]

Am Wed, 16 May 2007 12:27:25 +0200
schrieb "Valent Turkovic" <valent.turkovic(a)gmail.com&gt;:

>  > I detailed in another message why users care. Well, maybe not
> the
>  > users coming from Windows, where almost every application has its
>  > own incompatible look and feel...
>  
>  Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around and
>  look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in
>  mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps.
>  
>  Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that
>  uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any. 
/me raises his hand

I have two machines and they are strictly divided into Gnome/Xfce and
KDE. That's because I really really hate the mixed file dialogs and
handlings when putting all of them together. (Don't get me wrong: the
gtk file dialog is ok, the kde file dialog is great but I don't want
both of them in one session). Only my kde machine has some gtk apps
(and of course system-config-*).

And yeah, I'm a member of kde-sig.  :)
And that's of course only my opinion as a user of both desktops.

Sebastian

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Le mercredi 16 mai 2007 à 12:48 +0200, Sebastian Vahl a écrit :
>  Am Wed, 16 May 2007 12:27:25 +0200
>  schrieb "Valent Turkovic" <valent.turkovic(a)gmail.com&gt;: 
>  > Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around
> and
>  > look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in
>  > mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps.
>  > 
>  > Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that
>  > uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any.
>  
>  /me raises his hand 
[nim@rousalka ~]$ rpm -qa|grep qt
[nim@rousalka ~]$ rpm -qa|grep mono
[nim@rousalka ~]$ rpm -q gtk2
gtk2-2.10.11-5.fc7.x86_64

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot
Purist

[Valent Turkovic]

>  > Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app
> that
>  > uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any.
>
>  /me raises his hand 
Just because of this you should join this kinds of discussions :) You
are too biased :)
No purists are allowed to discuss desktop users and their behaviors :)

>  I have two machines and they are strictly divided into Gnome/Xfce and
>  KDE. That's because I really really hate the mixed file dialogs and
>  handlings when putting all of them together. (Don't get me wrong: the
>  gtk file dialog is ok, the kde file dialog is great but I don't want
>  both of them in one session). Only my kde machine has some gtk apps
>  (and of course system-config-*). 
I don't see any harm in mixed dialogs... I see much greater problem
when there is no app for burning on my system!

I installed fedora 7 and there is no burning app on my system. How can
I know that I have to go in nautilus to Go menue and then click on
CD/DVD burning? Can you please explain that? There is no excuse  for
not at least putting a link to gnome menu for burn:/// and calling it
"CD/DVD Burning application"

[Nicu Buculei]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  
>  I don't see any harm in mixed dialogs... I see much greater problem
>  when there is no app for burning on my system!
>  
>  I installed fedora 7 and there is no burning app on my system. How can
>  I know that I have to go in nautilus to Go menue and then click on
>  CD/DVD burning? Can you please explain that? There is no excuse  for
>  not at least putting a link to gnome menu for burn:/// and calling it
>  "CD/DVD Burning application" 
Make sure a box is checked in gnome-volume-properties and nautilus-burn 
is started when you insert a blank.

-- 
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro

[Bastien Nocera]

On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 12:27 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  On 5/16/07, Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora(a)nicubunu.ro&gt; wrote:
>  > Valent Turkovic wrote: 
<snip>
>  > > I use it all the time, ISO burning the most, making cd and
> dvd
>  > > compilations of multimedia... etc... formating DVD-RW and DVD+RW's...
>  >
>  > I believe you know about ISO burning with a right-click directly from
>  > Nautilus.
>  
>  And I believe you know that nautilus doesn't have md5 calculator on
>  it's right click integrated with the ISO burning.
>  I know why I use k3b over nautilus. 
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153428

[Gain Paolo Mureddu]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Valent Turkovic escribió:
>  Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora
> 6/7
>  installations?
>
>  Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning
>  app and it should be installed by default IMHO.
>
>  Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora
>  6/7 desktops.
>  I posted a bug for it:
>  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097
>
>  Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b?
>
>  Thank you very much.
>  
I would assume that the main reason not to include it, is that it
requires a hefty amount of KDE packages (almost a small installation
of the bulk of KDE) to run. It requires KDE-base, KDE-multimedia (not
to mention QT) and maybe I'm skipping a few others. Sure, it is a good
program, and by all means it should be on by default in every Fedora
KDE installation. If you don't mind cross DE programs, you can also
install it if you are using GNOME, XFCE, Fluxbox or whatever other DE
you want (which is what I do, anyway). Bottom line is that K3B is more
of an option than a requirement.

For those GNOME users, there're alternatives like Gnome Baker
(successor of the old gToaster, which at the time was THE best CD
burning front end for Linux) or the already mentioned nautilus-burn.
Sure, K3B is great, but it should be part or not of the default
installation whether you'll be installing KDE or not, not on by
default, at least that's my opinion.
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[Rahul Sundaram]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora
> 6/7
>  installations? 
Best is certainly subjective. If I a GNOME user I certainly don't want a 
whole bunch of KDE packages to have K3b installed. If I just want to 
burn some files quickly nautilus cd burning is more suitable. For other 
purposes there are programs like Brasero.
>  
>  Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning
>  app and it should be installed by default IMHO. 
Installed by default in where? The GNOME based live images wouldn't have 
enough space. KDE based live images already have them. If you choose KDE 
in "Fedora" spin you get k3b by default too.

>  Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on
> Fedora
>  6/7 desktops.
>  I posted a bug for it:
>  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097
>  
>  Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b? 
Merge will get such programs more maintainers hopefully.

Rahul

[Valent Turkovic]

On 5/15/07, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  > Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7
>  > installations?
>  Best is certainly subjective. If I a GNOME user I certainly don't want a
>  whole bunch of KDE packages to have K3b installed. If I just want to
>  burn some files quickly nautilus cd burning is more suitable. For other
>  purposes there are programs like Brasero. 
I'm not only giving my own personal opinion, but also of a few other
people who switched from windows to linux desktop. And they love k3b
more than they did Nero on the "dark" side :)

>  > Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd
> burning
>  > app and it should be installed by default IMHO.
>
>  Installed by default in where? The GNOME based live images wouldn't have
>  enough space. KDE based live images already have them. If you choose KDE
>  in "Fedora" spin you get k3b by default too. 
I installed gnome desktiop from Fedora 7 test 4 dvd, and I feel that
from DVD it should be installed by default no matter what DE I choose.

Gnome has some programs that KDE doesn't and also is true for the KDE
(qt). There is no point sticking to only one platform - the best apps
from whole array of linux apps should be presented to new users. Users
don't care it it's qt or not.

>  > Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well
> on Fedora
>  > 6/7 desktops.
>  > I posted a bug for it:
>  > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097
>  >
>  > Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b?
>
>  Merge will get such programs more maintainers hopefully.
>
>  Rahul 
Great !

>  --
>  Fedora-desktop-list mailing list
>  Fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
>

[Nicu Buculei]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  
>  I'm not only giving my own personal opinion, but also of a few other
>  people who switched from windows to linux desktop. And they love k3b
>  more than they did Nero on the "dark" side :) 
Out of curiosity, have those users tried GnomeBaker? Maybe Brassero also?
Which advantages have K3b over those? (beside support for mp3, which is 
not enabled in Fedora anyway)

>  I installed gnome desktiop from Fedora 7 test 4 dvd, and I feel that
>  from DVD it should be installed by default no matter what DE I choose. 
Not if Gnome have a comparable native alternative.

>  Gnome has some programs that KDE doesn't and also is true for the
> KDE
>  (qt). There is no point sticking to only one platform - the best apps
>  from whole array of linux apps should be presented to new users. Users
>  don't care it it's qt or not. 
Well, on my desktop K3b look alien (I can tell from a mile it use 
another set of widgets) and is very slow to start. Its Open/Save dialogs 
look strange and do not include the bookmarks available in all other 
applications, the order of "OK"/"Cancel" buttons in dialogs is weird,

the menu structure is bad (instead of Edit > Preferences it have 
Settings). I could go with this more and more.

-- 
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro

[Valent Turkovic]

On 5/16/07, Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora(a)nicubunu.ro&gt; wrote:
>  Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  >
>  > I'm not only giving my own personal opinion, but also of a few other
>  > people who switched from windows to linux desktop. And they love k3b
>  > more than they did Nero on the "dark" side :)
>
>  Out of curiosity, have those users tried GnomeBaker? Maybe Brassero also?
>  Which advantages have K3b over those? (beside support for mp3, which is
>  not enabled in Fedora anyway) 
Yes. They tested a few and still came back to k3b. Why? I know only
they said it is the best they used - I didn't go into details.

>  > I installed gnome desktiop from Fedora 7 test 4 dvd, and I feel that
>  > from DVD it should be installed by default no matter what DE I choose.
>
>  Not if Gnome have a comparable native alternative. 
Ok, here I agree. But not even brasero is installed by default on my
gnome desktop in fedora core 6 or fedora 7 test 4.

>  > Gnome has some programs that KDE doesn't and also is true
> for the KDE
>  > (qt). There is no point sticking to only one platform - the best apps
>  > from whole array of linux apps should be presented to new users. Users
>  > don't care it it's qt or not.
>
>  Well, on my desktop K3b look alien (I can tell from a mile it use 
I think you are a bit too biased to make this claim.
I alt-tab firefox-nautilus-thunderbird-openoffice-evolution and then
k3b... and when I switch to k3b it doesn't look at least out of place.
It looks like a native linux app - and in place.
I don't judge an app by widgets set and think that is discriminating.

>  another set of widgets) and is very slow to start. 
I (and probably over 50% of users) have one or other app that uses
other widget set - on my system k3b launces in 2 seconds, and that is
not because of time to load libraries but because it test the system
and devices during launch - if you aren't familiar how k3b works I
suggest you use it first and then claim that it is slow because of kde
libraries.

On my desktop k3b

> Its Open/Save dialogs
>  look strange and do not include the bookmarks available in all other
>  applications, the order of "OK"/"Cancel" buttons in dialogs is
> weird,
>  the menu structure is bad (instead of Edit > Preferences it have
>  Settings). I could go with this more and more 
Come on, are you really serious?
Almost every app has differently places some buttons or menu... Try
using some really different app like gaim ie. pidgin - what would you
say to that app?

>  --
>  nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
>  Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
>  Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
>  my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro
>
>  --
>  Fedora-desktop-list mailing list
>  Fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
>

[Keith Sharp]

On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 12:10 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  >Its Open/Save dialogs
>  > look strange and do not include the bookmarks available in all other
>  > applications, the order of "OK"/"Cancel" buttons in dialogs is
>  weird,
>  > the menu structure is bad (instead of Edit > Preferences it have
>  > Settings). I could go with this more and more
>  
>  Come on, are you really serious?
>  Almost every app has differently places some buttons or menu... Try
>  using some really different app like gaim ie. pidgin - what would you
>  say to that app?  
The whole point of the GNOME HIG is so that all core GNOME applications
are consistent in look and feel.  GAIM/Pidgin is not a core GNOME
application and makes little effort to follow the HIG, however if you
look at the UI for Gossip you will see an IM client that integrates far
better with GNOME.

One of the reasons that Apple has been praised for its desktop is
because of the ruthless application of their HIG to all parts of the
system.  This means that the learning curve for new users is
significantly lower.

Keith.

[Valent Turkovic]

On 5/16/07, Keith Sharp <kms(a)passback.co.uk&gt; wrote:
>  On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 12:10 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  > >Its Open/Save dialogs
>  > > look strange and do not include the bookmarks available in all other
>  > > applications, the order of "OK"/"Cancel" buttons in dialogs
> is
>  > weird,
>  > > the menu structure is bad (instead of Edit > Preferences it have
>  > > Settings). I could go with this more and more
>  >
>  > Come on, are you really serious?
>  > Almost every app has differently places some buttons or menu... Try
>  > using some really different app like gaim ie. pidgin - what would you
>  > say to that app?
>
>  The whole point of the GNOME HIG is so that all core GNOME applications
>  are consistent in look and feel.  GAIM/Pidgin is not a core GNOME
>  application and makes little effort to follow the HIG, however if you
>  look at the UI for Gossip you will see an IM client that integrates far
>  better with GNOME. 
I haven't used gossip more that 6 months so in order to be up-to-date
I just installed it.

I don't see any better integration from gossip with Gnome in any case
- I would say that they are both nicely integrated with Gnome desktop.
Second thing is feature wise you can't even compare the two. Gossip is
jabber client and gaim is general IM client. I use ICQ, jabber and
other IM protocols. Gossip can't do anything beside jabber protocol.
Plus gossip crashed 4-5 times before it connected to our local network
jabber server!!! Gaim is much more stable! I prefer stability and
features of gaim any time over gossip's "Gnome HIG compatibillity" and
better "Gnome integration" - especially because gaim integrates great
with the gnome desktop.

>  One of the reasons that Apple has been praised for its desktop is
>  because of the ruthless application of their HIG to all parts of the
>  system.  This means that the learning curve for new users is
>  significantly lower. 
Ok.
How many apps does apple have on a default OSX fresh installed
desktop? I would say 100%. And when users customize the desktop I
would dare to say that there is still 50% of Apple apps on average
desktop and 50% of other software developers.

How many apps are Gnome apps on default Fedora install? They probably
all are gtk based but probably less than 30% are gnome.
When users customize their desktops I guess this number falls drastically...

Gnome can only apply it's HIG to it's apps and hope others do the
same. But even with HIG there are some nonsenses in gnome like not
being able to alt-tab when dragging a file with a mouse - why?!?

So you can't expect Fedora to be in the same class as apple because
Fedora doesn't make any of the core apps for "Fedora desktop" - also
is also true for Gnome and KDE teams because they don't make Firefox
and OpenOffice...

Valent.

[David Nielsen]

ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 19:53 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic:

>  I don't see any better integration from gossip with Gnome in any
> case
>  - I would say that they are both nicely integrated with Gnome desktop.
>  Second thing is feature wise you can't even compare the two. Gossip is
>  jabber client and gaim is general IM client. I use ICQ, jabber and
>  other IM protocols. Gossip can't do anything beside jabber protocol.
>  Plus gossip crashed 4-5 times before it connected to our local network
>  jabber server!!! Gaim is much more stable! I prefer stability and
>  features of gaim any time over gossip's "Gnome HIG compatibillity" and
>  better "Gnome integration" - especially because gaim integrates great
>  with the gnome desktop. 
I use Gossip for about 16 hours a day without a crash. It was also
forked into the Empathy program to support Telepathy so we could get
support for all manners of functionality including VoIP,
Videoconferencing and naturally multiple IM protocols.

Using Empathy I'm currently chatting on MSN and Jabber (only protocols I
use currently), works fine - we should be able to offer users an
improved communications experience with gar better integration and a
more userfriendly interface in F8 using Empathy.

- David

[Valent Turkovic]

On 5/16/07, David Nielsen <david(a)lovesunix.net&gt; wrote:
>  ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 19:53 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic:
>
>  > I don't see any better integration from gossip with Gnome in any case
>  > - I would say that they are both nicely integrated with Gnome desktop.
>  > Second thing is feature wise you can't even compare the two. Gossip is
>  > jabber client and gaim is general IM client. I use ICQ, jabber and
>  > other IM protocols. Gossip can't do anything beside jabber protocol.
>  > Plus gossip crashed 4-5 times before it connected to our local network
>  > jabber server!!! Gaim is much more stable! I prefer stability and
>  > features of gaim any time over gossip's "Gnome HIG compatibillity"
> and
>  > better "Gnome integration" - especially because gaim integrates great
>  > with the gnome desktop.
>
>  I use Gossip for about 16 hours a day without a crash. It was also
>  forked into the Empathy program to support Telepathy so we could get
>  support for all manners of functionality including VoIP,
>  Videoconferencing and naturally multiple IM protocols. 
Gossip works ok now... but for some reason it crashed a few times on
account creation.

>  Using Empathy I'm currently chatting on MSN and Jabber (only
> protocols I
>  use currently), works fine - we should be able to offer users an
>  improved communications experience with gar better integration and a
>  more userfriendly interface in F8 using Empathy. 
Is there some repository I can use to install and test empathy with fedora 7?

>  - David
>
>  --
>  Fedora-desktop-list mailing list
>  Fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
>
>

[Brian Pepple]

On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 20:14 +0200, David Nielsen wrote:
>  ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 19:53 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic:
>  
>  > I don't see any better integration from gossip with Gnome in any case
>  > - I would say that they are both nicely integrated with Gnome desktop.
>  > Second thing is feature wise you can't even compare the two. Gossip is
>  > jabber client and gaim is general IM client. I use ICQ, jabber and
>  > other IM protocols. Gossip can't do anything beside jabber protocol.
>  > Plus gossip crashed 4-5 times before it connected to our local network
>  > jabber server!!! Gaim is much more stable! I prefer stability and
>  > features of gaim any time over gossip's "Gnome HIG compatibillity"
> and
>  > better "Gnome integration" - especially because gaim integrates great
>  > with the gnome desktop.
>  
>  I use Gossip for about 16 hours a day without a crash. It was also
>  forked into the Empathy program to support Telepathy so we could get
>  support for all manners of functionality including VoIP,
>  Videoconferencing and naturally multiple IM protocols.
>  
>  Using Empathy I'm currently chatting on MSN and Jabber (only protocols I
>  use currently), works fine - we should be able to offer users an
>  improved communications experience with gar better integration and a
>  more userfriendly interface in F8 using Empathy. 
After F7 is released, I'll be pushing an update for gossip-0.24 which
will support the use of the telepathy-plugins for those adventurous
souls.

Regarding Empathy I'm a little skeptical of it's readiness for inclusion
in Fedora since it's only had 2 releases so far. ;)

Later,
/B
-- 
Brian Pepple <bpepple(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;

gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E
BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B  CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E

[David Nielsen]

ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 15:48 -0400, skrev Brian Pepple:
>  On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 20:14 +0200, David Nielsen wrote:
>  > ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 19:53 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic:
>  > 
>  > > I don't see any better integration from gossip with Gnome in any case
>  > > - I would say that they are both nicely integrated with Gnome desktop.
>  > > Second thing is feature wise you can't even compare the two. Gossip is
>  > > jabber client and gaim is general IM client. I use ICQ, jabber and
>  > > other IM protocols. Gossip can't do anything beside jabber protocol.
>  > > Plus gossip crashed 4-5 times before it connected to our local network
>  > > jabber server!!! Gaim is much more stable! I prefer stability and
>  > > features of gaim any time over gossip's "Gnome HIG
> compatibillity" and
>  > > better "Gnome integration" - especially because gaim integrates
> great
>  > > with the gnome desktop.
>  > 
>  > I use Gossip for about 16 hours a day without a crash. It was also
>  > forked into the Empathy program to support Telepathy so we could get
>  > support for all manners of functionality including VoIP,
>  > Videoconferencing and naturally multiple IM protocols.
>  > 
>  > Using Empathy I'm currently chatting on MSN and Jabber (only protocols I
>  > use currently), works fine - we should be able to offer users an
>  > improved communications experience with gar better integration and a
>  > more userfriendly interface in F8 using Empathy.
>  
>  After F7 is released, I'll be pushing an update for gossip-0.24 which
>  will support the use of the telepathy-plugins for those adventurous
>  souls.
>  
>  Regarding Empathy I'm a little skeptical of it's readiness for inclusion
>  in Fedora since it's only had 2 releases so far. ;) 
I've been giving it a good run for it's money, it's not bugfree but it's
surprisingly stable given the that it's in the early stages of
development.

- David

[Nicu Buculei]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  
>  Gnome can only apply it's HIG to it's apps and hope others do the
>  same. But even with HIG there are some nonsenses in gnome like not
>  being able to alt-tab when dragging a file with a mouse - why?!?
>  
>  So you can't expect Fedora to be in the same class as apple because
>  Fedora doesn't make any of the core apps for "Fedora desktop" - also
>  is also true for Gnome and KDE teams because they don't make Firefox
>  and OpenOffice... 
I don't get it: Fedora can't be in the same class as Apple and we should 
just stop trying?

Fedora does not make the core apps indeed, but a lot of Fedora 
developers work upstream (or are even maintainers) on those applications.

-- 
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro

[Valent Turkovic]

>  purposes there are programs like Brasero. 
Why at least isn't Brasero installed by default?
I didn't wvwn know that there is a program called brasero. Now I
installed it and it is really nice. At lease brasero should be
installed by default.

[David Nielsen]

ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 10:48 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic:

>  Why at least isn't Brasero installed by default?
>  I didn't wvwn know that there is a program called brasero. Now I
>  installed it and it is really nice. At lease brasero should be
>  installed by default. 
Because burning as functionality doesn't warrent a seperate application,
that is a historical design mistake made primarily because integration
was not possible in the desktops at the time when burners became
affordable for everyone.

GNOME already provides me with burning functionality, burn an iso by
clicking it, want a music cd then create it in your music player (I use
Banshee but rhythmbox does this also) and so on. 

I'd opt for making the integration more visible rather than doing the
cope out of including a seperate application. We could extend f-spot if
it doesn't already support photoCDs so you could compile one directly in
your photo management application and likewise for other use cases which
to me seems like a much better ideal to strive for.

- David Nielsen

[Jesse Keating]

On Wednesday 16 May 2007 12:20:29 David Nielsen wrote:
>  Because burning as functionality doesn't warrent a seperate
> application,
>  that is a historical design mistake made primarily because integration
>  was not possible in the desktops at the time when burners became
>  affordable for everyone.
>
>  GNOME already provides me with burning functionality, burn an iso by
>  clicking it, want a music cd then create it in your music player (I use
>  Banshee but rhythmbox does this also) and so on.
>
>  I'd opt for making the integration more visible rather than doing the
>  cope out of including a seperate application. We could extend f-spot if
>  it doesn't already support photoCDs so you could compile one directly in
>  your photo management application and likewise for other use cases which
>  to me seems like a much better ideal to strive for. 
+10.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora

[Nicolas Mailhot]

>  On Wednesday 16 May 2007 12:20:29 David Nielsen wrote: 
>  > I'd opt for making the integration more visible rather than
> doing the
>  > cope out of including a seperate application. 
There's zip reason a separate application can not be integrated. See
sound-juicer in rhythmbox. All you need is to pass info from the
picture/sound/whatever app to the burning app so it starts in the right
mode without requiring the user to re-enter info.

I'd rather have a full-featured integrated gnome burning app than a
limited nautilus mode that forces users to search and install a
non-integrated burning app as soon as they have non-trivial burning
needs.

You'll note that historically all the fancy integrated nautilus views
have been replaced by dedicated apps in GNOME. Nautilus modes do not
scale. They embark too much "file manager"-oriented garbage that
clutters the UI and leaves no place for more task-oriented menus and
widgets.

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot

[Valent Turkovic]

On 5/17/07, Nicolas Mailhot <nicolas.mailhot(a)laposte.net&gt; wrote:
>  > On Wednesday 16 May 2007 12:20:29 David Nielsen wrote:
>
>  > > I'd opt for making the integration more visible rather than doing the
>  > > cope out of including a seperate application.
>
>  There's zip reason a separate application can not be integrated. See
>  sound-juicer in rhythmbox. All you need is to pass info from the
>  picture/sound/whatever app to the burning app so it starts in the right
>  mode without requiring the user to re-enter info.
>
>  I'd rather have a full-featured integrated gnome burning app than a
>  limited nautilus mode that forces users to search and install a
>  non-integrated burning app as soon as they have non-trivial burning
>  needs.
>
>  You'll note that historically all the fancy integrated nautilus views
>  have been replaced by dedicated apps in GNOME. Nautilus modes do not
>  scale. They embark too much "file manager"-oriented garbage that
>  clutters the UI and leaves no place for more task-oriented menus and
>  widgets. 
Amen to that! :)
Please don't thing users are satisfied with limited nautilus
burning... if you do any study you will see they are not!

[Skunk Worx]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora
> 6/7
>  installations?
>  
>  Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning
>  app and it should be installed by default IMHO.
>  
>  Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora
>  6/7 desktops.
>  I posted a bug for it:
>  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097
>  
>  Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b?
>  
>  Thank you very much.
>   
Personally I'm glad they keep things to a minimum. It seems like every 
PC I've used for media mastering is a little odd.

In general, I've found k3b and nautilus to be coaster ovens. I don't 
even bother anymore.

For DVDs I use mkisofs and growisofs on the command line.

For CDs I use xcdroast.

---
John

[Valent Turkovic]

On 5/18/07, Skunk Worx <skunkworx(a)verizon.net&gt; wrote:
>  Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  > Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7
>  > installations?
>  >
>  > Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning
>  > app and it should be installed by default IMHO.
>  >
>  > Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora
>  > 6/7 desktops.
>  > I posted a bug for it:
>  > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097
>  >
>  > Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b?
>  >
>  > Thank you very much.
>  >
>
>  Personally I'm glad they keep things to a minimum. It seems like every
>  PC I've used for media mastering is a little odd.
>
>  In general, I've found k3b and nautilus to be coaster ovens. I don't
>  even bother anymore.
>
>  For DVDs I use mkisofs and growisofs on the command line.
>
>  For CDs I use xcdroast.
>
>  --- 
I know that powerusers have milion an one way to bake a cake... but
what message do you send to new users? DOn't use linux... it's not for
you!?!

k3b works great on all mine systems (3 laptops and 1 deskop with every
hardware and linux distro mix you can think off).

[Skunk Worx]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  On 5/18/07, Skunk Worx <skunkworx(a)verizon.net&gt; wrote:
> > Valent Turkovic wrote:
> > > Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b?
> > >
> >
> > Personally I'm glad they keep things to a minimum. It seems like every
> > PC I've used for media mastering is a little odd.
> >
> > ---
>  
>  I know that powerusers have milion an one way to bake a cake... but
>  what message do you send to new users? DOn't use linux... it's not for
>  you!?!
>   
I don't think this message is being sent. The Fedora online help clearly 
explains how to write using the default gnome tools.

One of the most common complaints about Linux is there are too many ways 
to do things.

The Fedora KDE live-cd has k3b on it. It's kind of nice to have the 
option to try either desktop then decide to install your favorite on the 
hard drive.

>  k3b works great on all mine systems (3 laptops and 1 deskop with
> every
>  hardware and linux distro mix you can think off).
>   
I'm not a power user, I had to google to see all the various problems 
people were having with reading and writing on various hardware and 
software platforms to learn how to deal with them.

My experience differs from yours. Last year about 1/8 writers I tested 
had issues requiring firmware or software updates before they would 
reliably burn using...anything.

---
John

[Bastien Nocera]

On Thu, 2007-05-17 at 22:15 -0700, Skunk Worx wrote:
>  Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  > Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7
>  > installations?
>  > 
>  > Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning
>  > app and it should be installed by default IMHO.
>  > 
>  > Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora
>  > 6/7 desktops.
>  > I posted a bug for it:
>  > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097
>  > 
>  > Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b?
>  > 
>  > Thank you very much.
>  > 
>  
>  Personally I'm glad they keep things to a minimum. It seems like every 
>  PC I've used for media mastering is a little odd.
>  
>  In general, I've found k3b and nautilus to be coaster ovens. I don't 
>  even bother anymore. 
If you can, get yourself some CD-RW and file bugs. I don't see what
nautilus-cd-burner would be doing differently from xcdroast in terms of
burning.

>  For DVDs I use mkisofs and growisofs on the command line. 
nautilus-cd-burner uses growisofs as well, and burns directly to DVD
with the latest versions. I'm not sure how n-c-b would work any
differently from growisofs on the command-line.

>  For CDs I use xcdroast.