socializing upcoming GNOME UI changes?

[Matthew Miller]

Looks like GNOME 40 won't be just another number — there's a significant
update to the Overview, with in particular workspaces moved from vertical to
horizontal. And it looks like the dash goes at the bottom now?

The changes look well-thought through and sensible, but it's also the most
significant change to the GNOME 3 UI in a long time.

The GNOME blog here https://blogs.gnome.org/shell-dev/ is a good start, but
I think we should plan to have some Fedora Magazine articles about this as
well.

Also, is there an extension which brings back the old layout for people who
want to stay the way it is?

[Neal Gompa]

On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 12:02 PM Matthew Miller
 wrote:
> Looks like GNOME 40 won't be just another number — there's a significant
> update to the Overview, with in particular workspaces moved from vertical to
> horizontal. And it looks like the dash goes at the bottom now?
>
> The changes look well-thought through and sensible, but it's also the most
> significant change to the GNOME 3 UI in a long time.

That's what was said when GNOME 3 UI was in development...
> The GNOME blog here https://blogs.gnome.org/shell-dev/ is a good start, but
> I think we should plan to have some Fedora Magazine articles about this as
> well.
>
> Also, is there an extension which brings back the old layout for people who
> want to stay the way it is?

*sighs*

--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Matthew Miller]

On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 12:08:49PM -0500, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > Looks like GNOME 40 won't be just another number — there's a significant
> > update to the Overview, with in particular workspaces moved from vertical to
> > horizontal. And it looks like the dash goes at the bottom now?
> > The changes look well-thought through and sensible, but it's also the most
> > significant change to the GNOME 3 UI in a long time.
>
> That's what was said when GNOME 3 UI was in development...

Well, this is clearly less of a shift than that. But, yeah: we've got a good
thing going.

[Allan Day]

Matthew Miller  wrote:
> Looks like GNOME 40 won't be just another number — there's a significant
> update to the Overview, with in particular workspaces moved from vertical
> to
> horizontal. And it looks like the dash goes at the bottom now?
>
> The changes look well-thought through and sensible, but it's also the most
> significant change to the GNOME 3 UI in a long time.
>
> The GNOME blog here https://blogs.gnome.org/shell-dev/ is a good start,
> but
> I think we should plan to have some Fedora Magazine articles about this as
> well.

I'm happy to help with this, and with coordination in general. Just let me
know if there's anyone I should be speaking to.
> Also, is there an extension which brings back the old layout for people who
> want to stay the way it is?

Bit too early for that, really - nothing's landed in master yet.

Allan

[Benjamin Berg]

On Tue, 2020-12-22 at 11:20 +0000, Allan Day wrote:
> Matthew Miller  wrote:
>
> [SNIP]
> > Also, is there an extension which brings back the old layout for
> > people who want to stay the way it is?
>
> Bit too early for that, really - nothing's landed in master yet.

True, it is too early to answer the specific question. The answer to
the more general question, whether there are plans (and resources) to
create such an extension (or option), might still be interesting
though.

Benjamin
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[Allan Day]

Benjamin Berg  wrote:
...
> > > Also, is there an extension which brings back the old layout for
> > > people who want to stay the way it is?
> >
> > Bit too early for that, really - nothing's landed in master yet.
>
> True, it is too early to answer the specific question. The answer to
> the more general question, whether there are plans (and resources) to
> create such an extension (or option), might still be interesting
> though.

True. To be honest, I doubt that the core team that's working on this
will have time to be implementing an extension (or extensions) of that
nature. In place of that, I wouldn't be surprised if we get community
efforts to do some of this, and that's something we could try to
promote.

However, undoing the new design probably won't be easy. I'm assuming
that changing the orientation of the workspaces to be vertical would
likely be hard, since that's deeply tied into how the overview is
organised. Likewise, moving the dash back to its position on the left
gets awkward when you consider that the workspaces pan horizontally.
The new design is nice in that everything fits together nicely,
including the shortcuts and gestures, but that results in less wiggle
room.

When it comes to extensions my personal priority is to ensure that we
have a functional dash to dock extension ready for the next release.

Allan

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 2:05 pm, Allan Day  wrote:
> When it comes to extensions my personal priority is to ensure that we
> have a functional dash to dock extension ready for the next release.

Why? If it's actually important, then surely it should become a setting 
that doesn't require an extension. And if it's not important, why do we 
care?

[Allan Day]

Michael Catanzaro  wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 2:05 pm, Allan Day  wrote:
> > When it comes to extensions my personal priority is to ensure that we
> > have a functional dash to dock extension ready for the next release.
>
> Why?

Because a lot of people rely on it (hard to get precise numbers but
it's a significant minority). Also, some Red Hat customers use it.
> If it's actually important, then surely it should become a setting
> that doesn't require an extension. And if it's not important, why do we
> care?

I'm actually interested in making dash to dock an option in the
future, but whether it's an extension or not seems like a different
question from whether it's important or not? I mean, there are plenty
of options which are important but which exist as extensions, classic
mode and friends being the obvious examples.

Allan

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 3:55 pm, Allan Day  wrote:
> I'm actually interested in making dash to dock an option in the
> future

OK then, well if everything is going to be redesigned, now seems like 
as good a time as any for it. And I suspect Ubuntu will thank you!
> but whether it's an extension or not seems like a different
> question from whether it's important or not? I mean, there are plenty
> of options which are important but which exist as extensions, classic
> mode and friends being the obvious examples.

Eh... classic mode is a little special in that it is a supported, 
upstream option that we install by default in Workstation. The fact 
that it's implemented with extensions is just an implementation detail.

[Allan Day]

Michael Catanzaro  wrote:
...
> > I'm actually interested in making dash to dock an option in the
> > future
>
> OK then, well if everything is going to be redesigned, now seems like
> as good a time as any for it. And I suspect Ubuntu will thank you!

It's not just up to me, and it could be a big discussion. I was
planning on coming back to that after we'd got this release out of the
way.
> > but whether it's an extension or not seems like a different
> > question from whether it's important or not? I mean, there are plenty
> > of options which are important but which exist as extensions, classic
> > mode and friends being the obvious examples.
>
> Eh... classic mode is a little special in that it is a supported,
> upstream option that we install by default in Workstation. The fact
> that it's implemented with extensions is just an implementation detail.

Alright.

Allan

Hi,

Just out of curiosity. How do we do Gnome's usability testing? i.e.
Whenever new changes are implemented.
   I remember during Devconf.CZ 2016 or 2017, few volunteers were carrying
out Gnome's usability testing.

Best Regards,
Pravin Satpute

On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 at 22:32, Matthew Miller 
wrote:
> Looks like GNOME 40 won't be just another number — there's a significant
> update to the Overview, with in particular workspaces moved from vertical
> to
> horizontal. And it looks like the dash goes at the bottom now?
>
> The changes look well-thought through and sensible, but it's also the most
> significant change to the GNOME 3 UI in a long time.
>
> The GNOME blog here https://blogs.gnome.org/shell-dev/ is a good start,
> but
> I think we should plan to have some Fedora Magazine articles about this as
> well.
>
> Also, is there an extension which brings back the old layout for people who
> want to stay the way it is?
>
> --
> Matthew Miller
>
> Fedora Project Leader
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[Allan Day]

[e-mail]  wrote:
...
> Just out of curiosity. How do we do Gnome's usability testing? i.e. Whenever new changes are implemented.
>    I remember during Devconf.CZ 2016 or 2017, few volunteers were carrying out Gnome's usability testing.

I think the best thing to do would be to coordinate with upstream in
advance of any tests, to ensure that the things you run tests on are
going to receive attention. No point in testing a UI that's unlikely
to get touched! Ideally we'd be able to integrate testing into the
design and development process itself, so we're testing prototypes or
development versions, maybe even in some kind of iterative
test/redesign/retest pattern.

Just let me know if you want to pursue this - I can help.

Allan

On Tue, 22 Dec 2020 at 23:02, Allan Day  wrote:
> [e-mail]  wrote:
> ...
> > Just out of curiosity. How do we do Gnome's usability testing? i.e.
>
> Whenever new changes are implemented.
> > I remember during Devconf.CZ 2016 or 2017, few volunteers were
>
> carrying out Gnome's usability testing.
>
> I think the best thing to do would be to coordinate with upstream in
> advance of any tests, to ensure that the things you run tests on are
> going to receive attention. No point in testing a UI that's unlikely
> to get touched! Ideally we'd be able to integrate testing into the
> design and development process itself, so we're testing prototypes or
> development versions, maybe even in some kind of iterative
> test/redesign/retest pattern.

Agree with you, it should be part of the Upstream process itself.
> Just let me know if you want to pursue this - I can help.

As of now, no plans. But I will definitely reach out to you, in case any
plans around it.

Thanks,
Pravin
> Allan
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