Wayland-by-default: it is for Alpha, unless you change something

[Adam Williamson]

Hey folks!

We were just chewing over the Wayland-by-default Change and Fedora 25
status in the QA meeting. That led me to realize maybe this needs
emphasizing:

Alpha go/no-go (after the initial slip) is Thursday. We will be trying
to cut the Alpha RC today or tomorrow. Right now, *Wayland will be the
default* in any Alpha compose, because that's the state of things in
the 'stable' repo right now.

If you *don't* want Wayland to be default in Alpha you need to take
action right away. Wednesday is too late - unless we find blocking
issues in the RC compose and have to slip again, which you shouldn't
rely on.

If you want Wayland not to be default in Alpha, you need to file a bug
and propose it as either a blocker or a freeze exception issue
immediately, and submit an update that changes the default and mark it
as fixing the bug. Please ask me or any other person involved in the
blocker process if you need help on doing that.

If no blocker/FE bug is filed, Wayland will be the default in Alpha.

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Mon, 2016-08-22 at 08:30 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> If you *don't* want Wayland to be default in Alpha you need to take
> action right away. Wednesday is too late - unless we find blocking
> issues in the RC compose and have to slip again, which you shouldn't
> rely on.

Hi,

Thanks for the warning. We do want Wayland to be the default in the
alpha release, so no action is required. If we decide to switch back to
X11, we'll probably do it sometime between alpha release and beta
freeze.

Michael

[Paul W. Frields]

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 10:50:20AM -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
> On Mon, 2016-08-22 at 08:30 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > If you *don't* want Wayland to be default in Alpha you need to take
> > action right away. Wednesday is too late - unless we find blocking
> > issues in the RC compose and have to slip again, which you shouldn't
> > rely on.
>
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the warning. We do want Wayland to be the default in the
> alpha release, so no action is required. If we decide to switch back to
> X11, we'll probably do it sometime between alpha release and beta
> freeze.

Yes to all this.  Olivier, could we get you to update the wiki page
please? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault

[Olivier Fourdan]

Hi Paul
> > Thanks for the warning. We do want Wayland to be the default in the
> > alpha release, so no action is required. If we decide to switch back to
> > X11, we'll probably do it sometime between alpha release and beta
> > freeze.
>
> Yes to all this.  Olivier, could we get you to update the wiki page
> please? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault

I tried to update this page to the best of my knowledge, but there is some overlap with https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Wayland_features so I also linked to that page from https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault as well.

Please let me know if that's what you had in mind,

Cheers,
Olivier

[Paul W. Frields]

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 03:28:33AM -0400, Olivier Fourdan wrote:
> Hi Paul
> > > Thanks for the warning. We do want Wayland to be the default in the
> > > alpha release, so no action is required. If we decide to switch back to
> > > X11, we'll probably do it sometime between alpha release and beta
> > > freeze.
> >
> > Yes to all this.  Olivier, could we get you to update the wiki page
> > please? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault
>
> I tried to update this page to the best of my knowledge, but there is some overlap with https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Wayland_features so I also linked to that page from https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault as well.
>
> Please let me know if that's what you had in mind,

That's helpful, thank you.  I think it would also be helpful -- not
just for me, really for FESCo, storytellers, and the community at
large -- to know how the features fall into categories:

* Must be finished (modulo expected bugs) for F25
* Expected to finish for F26
* Nice-to-have but not a set time/release to finish

If there are some clear trends in things users ask for that aren't
planned (anti-features?), we should collect those in the same place to
set proper expectations.  I suspect these may be spelled out in one or
more design docs somewhere but need to be collated somehow.

[Paul W. Frields]

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 05:06:56PM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 03:28:33AM -0400, Olivier Fourdan wrote:
> > Hi Paul
> > > > Thanks for the warning. We do want Wayland to be the default in the
> > > > alpha release, so no action is required. If we decide to switch back to
> > > > X11, we'll probably do it sometime between alpha release and beta
> > > > freeze.
> > >
> > > Yes to all this.  Olivier, could we get you to update the wiki page
> > > please? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault
> >
> > I tried to update this page to the best of my knowledge, but there is some overlap with https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Wayland_features so I also linked to that page from https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault as well.
> >
> > Please let me know if that's what you had in mind,
>
> That's helpful, thank you.  I think it would also be helpful -- not
> just for me, really for FESCo, storytellers, and the community at
> large -- to know how the features fall into categories:
> Must be finished (modulo expected bugs) for F25
> Expected to finish for F26
> Nice-to-have but not a set time/release to finish
>
> If there are some clear trends in things users ask for that aren't
> planned (anti-features?), we should collect those in the same place to
> set proper expectations.  I suspect these may be spelled out in one or
> more design docs somewhere but need to be collated somehow.

Sorry to respond to myself, I realized a wrinkle I didn't call out.
We should make sure that completion measures are clear.  Take for
example this Wayland feature:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Wayland_features#BLOCKER:_primary_selection

What does 100% mean here?  How is that related to e.g. WebKit
consumers/users?  Again, a matter of setting expectations for what
"done" means so it's not a moving goal post.

[Samuel Rakitničan]

> On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 05:06:56PM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>
> <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Wayland_features#BLOCKER:_primary_selectio...
>
> What does 100% mean here?

I would like to know that also. I believe I have all the recent pieces with support for locking/confinement, yet games are still not working properly. Is there something else needed still?

[Olivier Fourdan]

Hi
> > <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Wayland_features#BLOCKER:_primary_selectio...
> >
> > What does 100% mean here?
>
> I would like to know that also. I believe I have all the recent pieces with
> support for locking/confinement, yet games are still not working properly.
> Is there something else needed still?

Yeap, that's a good example actually.

Pointer locking and confinement protocols have landed, and the implementation in mutter as well, but for the games to take advantage of it, they must also implement it (assuming these run natively in Wayland).

So for example, inthe case of games using SDL, the patches for SDL that Jonas has contributed have not landed upstream yet and are pending review, so the SDL games that can run natively in Wayland cannot use pointer locking and confinement, even though it's there in both Wayland and the compositor (mutter).

As for the games not running natively and still relying on X11, Xwayland doesn't have the bits for pointer locking and confinement.

Cheers,
Olivier

[Olivier Fourdan]

Hi
> Sorry to respond to myself, I realized a wrinkle I didn't call out.
> We should make sure that completion measures are clear.  Take for
> example this Wayland feature:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Wayland_features#BLOCKER:_primary_selection
>
> What does 100% mean here?  How is that related to e.g. WebKit
> consumers/users?  Again, a matter of setting expectations for what
> "done" means so it's not a moving goal post.

100% here means it's implemented in GNOME, i.e. in the gtk+ Wayland protocol, in the compositor for GNOME (mutter), and in our toolkit of choice for GNOME (gtk+) modulo possible bugs.

The protocol has been proposed upstream as a general Wayland protocol [1] but it has not reached consensus yet and therefore decision was made to add it as a gtk+ Wayland protocol meanwhile [2], so other toolkits or implementations might be lacking support for primary selection.

Cheers,
Olivier

[1] https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/wayland-devel/2016-February/027101.ht...
[2] https://git.gnome.org/browse/gtk+/commit/?id=787e1d7