Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

[Paul W. Frields]

**NOTE** We will move our meeting to 9:00am US Eastern time (that's
  1400 UTC) Monday, 2016-Dec-05.

Below are current agenda items I know about.  Corrections and
additions are welcome; please send them by Sunday evening.  In the
future I plan to get this agenda out on Wednesday evening before the
meeting, with agenda items due by Friday night.

* Branding -- cschaller
	* Christian was to have a proposal ready to walk the WG through and
		start gathering input.  Does this exist yet on the wiki?

* coredumpctl -- mcatanzaro
	* Michael did a Change page for F26. Let's make sure we know what
	  the next steps are so it gets picked up by the wrangler/FESCo, and
		plan developer contact as needed.


-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
    The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Thu, 2016-12-01 at 18:41 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>  * Branding -- cschaller
>          * Christian was to have a proposal ready to walk the WG
>  through and
>                  start gathering input.  Does this exist yet on the
>  wiki?
>  
>  * coredumpctl -- mcatanzaro
>          * Michael did a Change page for F26. Let's make sure we know
>  what
>            the next steps are so it gets picked up by the
>  wrangler/FESCo, and
>                  plan developer contact as needed. 
Hi,

I'll miss the last 20 minutes of the meeting (next week only), so might
want to get coredumpctl discussion out of the way first. It shouldn't
take long as we already agreed on the important points at the last
meeting.

Michael

Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

[Christian Schaller]

Hi, so I haven't put anything on the wiki yet, but here is my current proposal:

Mission statement for Branding
We want to use branding elements in our desktop to create a distinct visual identity for
Fedora Workstation. 
These branding elements should signal that Fedora Workstation is more than just a sum of
its parts and over 
time develop instant recognizability of Fedora Workstation in screenshots, presentations
and daily use.

-------------
I be happy for input and improvement suggestions from the community on this. Be aware that
we are trying to
be systematic about this, so lets do this step by step. This statement is meant to clearly
show what we want
to achieve with our branding, so it avoids talking about implementation. We will then
later talk implementation
in light of this mission statement.

Christian



----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul W. Frields" <stickster(a)gmail.com&gt;
> To: desktop(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 6:41:37 PM
> Subject: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05
> 
> **NOTE** We will move our meeting to 9:00am US Eastern time (that's
>   1400 UTC) Monday, 2016-Dec-05.
> 
> Below are current agenda items I know about.  Corrections and
> additions are welcome; please send them by Sunday evening.  In the
> future I plan to get this agenda out on Wednesday evening before the
> meeting, with agenda items due by Friday night.
> 
> * Branding -- cschaller
> 	* Christian was to have a proposal ready to walk the WG through and
> 		start gathering input.  Does this exist yet on the wiki?
> 
> * coredumpctl -- mcatanzaro
> 	* Michael did a Change page for F26. Let's make sure we know what
> 	  the next steps are so it gets picked up by the wrangler/FESCo, and
> 		plan developer contact as needed.
> 
> 
> --
> Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
>   gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
>   http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
>     The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com
> _______________________________________________
> desktop mailing list -- desktop(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to desktop-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>

Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

[Matthew Miller]

On Fri, Dec 02, 2016 at 09:06:03AM -0500, Christian Schaller wrote:
>  Mission statement for Branding
>  We want to use branding elements in our desktop to create a distinct
>  visual identity for Fedora Workstation. These branding elements
>  should signal that Fedora Workstation is more than just a sum of its
>  parts and over time develop instant recognizability of Fedora
>  Workstation in screenshots, presentations and daily use. 
+1 to this!

-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Paul W. Frields]

On Thu, Dec 01, 2016 at 06:33:05PM -0600, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
>  On Thu, 2016-12-01 at 18:41 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>  > * Branding -- cschaller
>  >         * Christian was to have a proposal ready to walk the WG
>  > through and
>  >                 start gathering input.  Does this exist yet on the
>  > wiki?
>  > 
>  > * coredumpctl -- mcatanzaro
>  >         * Michael did a Change page for F26. Let's make sure we know
>  > what
>  >           the next steps are so it gets picked up by the
>  > wrangler/FESCo, and
>  >                 plan developer contact as needed.
>  
>  Hi,
>  
>  I'll miss the last 20 minutes of the meeting (next week only), so might
>  want to get coredumpctl discussion out of the way first. It shouldn't
>  take long as we already agreed on the important points at the last
>  meeting. 
Can do -- thanks for the notice.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
    The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Thu, 2016-12-01 at 18:41 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>  * coredumpctl -- mcatanzaro
>          * Michael did a Change page for F26. Let's make sure we know
>  what
>            the next steps are so it gets picked up by the
>  wrangler/FESCo, and
>                  plan developer contact as needed. 
Hi,

I've posted the change proposal page at [1].

The remaining step is to change the category on the page from
ChangePageIncomplete to ChangeReadyForWrangler.

Michael

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/coredumpctl

Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

[Bastien Nocera]

----- Original Message -----
>  Hi, so I haven't put anything on the wiki yet, but here is my
> current
>  proposal:
>  
>  Mission statement for Branding
>  We want to use branding elements in our desktop to create a distinct visual
>  identity for Fedora Workstation.
>  These branding elements should signal that Fedora Workstation is more than
>  just a sum of its parts and over
>  time develop instant recognizability of Fedora Workstation in screenshots,
>  presentations and daily use.
>  
>  -------------
>  I be happy for input and improvement suggestions from the community on this.
>  Be aware that we are trying to
>  be systematic about this, so lets do this step by step. This statement is
>  meant to clearly show what we want
>  to achieve with our branding, so it avoids talking about implementation. We
>  will then later talk implementation
>  in light of this mission statement. 
I'd remove the "instant recognizability". You can't do instantly, nobody
can.
Fullscreen applications are in control of what they display, and I don't see
how you could recognise *instantly* a presentation made on a Windows or Linux
machine.

I also don't see why we'd need a distinct visual identity. Here, you're
delving
into implementation details. I think we can make Fedora recognisable without
a distinct visual identity.

Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

[Christian Schaller]

----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Bastien Nocera" <bnocera(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  To: "Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop"
> <desktop(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 8:44:44 AM
>  Subject: Re: Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05
>  
>  
>  
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  > Hi, so I haven't put anything on the wiki yet, but here is my current
>  > proposal:
>  > 
>  > Mission statement for Branding
>  > We want to use branding elements in our desktop to create a distinct visual
>  > identity for Fedora Workstation.
>  > These branding elements should signal that Fedora Workstation is more than
>  > just a sum of its parts and over
>  > time develop instant recognizability of Fedora Workstation in screenshots,
>  > presentations and daily use.
>  > 
>  > -------------
>  > I be happy for input and improvement suggestions from the community on
>  > this.
>  > Be aware that we are trying to
>  > be systematic about this, so lets do this step by step. This statement is
>  > meant to clearly show what we want
>  > to achieve with our branding, so it avoids talking about implementation. We
>  > will then later talk implementation
>  > in light of this mission statement.
>  
>  I'd remove the "instant recognizability". You can't do instantly,
> nobody can.
>  Fullscreen applications are in control of what they display, and I don't see
>  how you could recognise *instantly* a presentation made on a Windows or Linux
>  machine. 
Sure, I am open to removing or changing the word instant, on the other hand the 
mission statement is meant to convey general intent, not cover every possible
implementation corner case, so the fact that there are corner cases where we would
not be able to fulfil the wording of the mission statement isn't really a problem
IMHO.

>  I also don't see why we'd need a distinct visual identity.
> Here, you're
>  delving
>  into implementation details. I think we can make Fedora recognisable without
>  a distinct visual identity. 
Not sure I would agree its implementation details, and
I am not sure how you would
make something recognisable without making it distinguishable?

Christian

> _______________________________________________
> desktop mailing list -- desktop(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to desktop-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>

Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

[Bastien Nocera]

----- Original Message -----
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  > From: "Bastien Nocera" <bnocera(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  > To: "Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop"
>  > <desktop(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  > Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 8:44:44 AM
>  > Subject: Re: Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for
>  > agenda 2016-Dec-05
>  > 
>  > 
>  > 
>  > ----- Original Message -----
>  > > Hi, so I haven't put anything on the wiki yet, but here is my current
>  > > proposal:
>  > > 
>  > > Mission statement for Branding
>  > > We want to use branding elements in our desktop to create a distinct
>  > > visual
>  > > identity for Fedora Workstation.
>  > > These branding elements should signal that Fedora Workstation is more
>  > > than
>  > > just a sum of its parts and over
>  > > time develop instant recognizability of Fedora Workstation in
>  > > screenshots,
>  > > presentations and daily use.
>  > > 
>  > > -------------
>  > > I be happy for input and improvement suggestions from the community on
>  > > this.
>  > > Be aware that we are trying to
>  > > be systematic about this, so lets do this step by step. This statement is
>  > > meant to clearly show what we want
>  > > to achieve with our branding, so it avoids talking about implementation.
>  > > We
>  > > will then later talk implementation
>  > > in light of this mission statement.
>  > 
>  > I'd remove the "instant recognizability". You can't do instantly,
> nobody
>  > can.
>  > Fullscreen applications are in control of what they display, and I don't
>  > see
>  > how you could recognise *instantly* a presentation made on a Windows or
>  > Linux
>  > machine.
>  
>  Sure, I am open to removing or changing the word instant, on the other hand
>  the
>  mission statement is meant to convey general intent, not cover every possible
>  implementation corner case, so the fact that there are corner cases where we
>  would
>  not be able to fulfil the wording of the mission statement isn't really a
>  problem
>  IMHO. 
The mission statement is what you want to achieve. If what you want to achieve
is impossible, how do we work towards an unachievable goal?

>  > I also don't see why we'd need a distinct visual
> identity. Here, you're
>  > delving
>  > into implementation details. I think we can make Fedora recognisable
>  > without
>  > a distinct visual identity.
>  Not sure I would agree its implementation details, and I am not sure how you
>  would
>  make something recognisable without making it distinguishable? 
Distinct means it's clearly different. Those car models aren't distinct:
https://medium.com/swlh/the-zombie-mobile-b03932ac971d
though they're recognisable (through their badges, accessories, specific colour
schemes, etc.). An SUV and a sedan are distinct.

Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

[Christian Schaller]

----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Bastien Nocera" <bnocera(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  To: "Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop"
> <desktop(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 9:18:51 AM
>  Subject: Re: Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05
>  
>  
>  
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  > 
>  > 
>  > 
>  > 
>  > ----- Original Message -----
>  > > From: "Bastien Nocera" <bnocera(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  > > To: "Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop"
>  > > <desktop(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  > > Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 8:44:44 AM
>  > > Subject: Re: Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for
>  > > agenda 2016-Dec-05
>  > > 
>  > > 
>  > > 
>  > > ----- Original Message -----
>  > > > Hi, so I haven't put anything on the wiki yet, but here is my current
>  > > > proposal:
>  > > > 
>  > > > Mission statement for Branding
>  > > > We want to use branding elements in our desktop to create a distinct
>  > > > visual
>  > > > identity for Fedora Workstation.
>  > > > These branding elements should signal that Fedora Workstation is more
>  > > > than
>  > > > just a sum of its parts and over
>  > > > time develop instant recognizability of Fedora Workstation in
>  > > > screenshots,
>  > > > presentations and daily use.
>  > > > 
>  > > > -------------
>  > > > I be happy for input and improvement suggestions from the community on
>  > > > this.
>  > > > Be aware that we are trying to
>  > > > be systematic about this, so lets do this step by step. This statement
>  > > > is
>  > > > meant to clearly show what we want
>  > > > to achieve with our branding, so it avoids talking about
>  > > > implementation.
>  > > > We
>  > > > will then later talk implementation
>  > > > in light of this mission statement.
>  > > 
>  > > I'd remove the "instant recognizability". You can't do
> instantly, nobody
>  > > can.
>  > > Fullscreen applications are in control of what they display, and I don't
>  > > see
>  > > how you could recognise *instantly* a presentation made on a Windows or
>  > > Linux
>  > > machine.
>  > 
>  > Sure, I am open to removing or changing the word instant, on the other hand
>  > the
>  > mission statement is meant to convey general intent, not cover every
>  > possible
>  > implementation corner case, so the fact that there are corner cases where
>  > we
>  > would
>  > not be able to fulfil the wording of the mission statement isn't really a
>  > problem
>  > IMHO.
>  
>  The mission statement is what you want to achieve. If what you want to
>  achieve
>  is impossible, how do we work towards an unachievable goal? 
To follow your car analogy, the mission statement is conveying that we want
to make a safe car, even though as a practical concern making a 100% safe car
is probably impossible. 


>  > > I also don't see why we'd need a distinct visual
> identity. Here, you're
>  > > delving
>  > > into implementation details. I think we can make Fedora recognisable
>  > > without
>  > > a distinct visual identity.
>  > Not sure I would agree its implementation details, and I am not sure how
>  > you
>  > would
>  > make something recognisable without making it distinguishable?
>  
>  Distinct means it's clearly different. Those car models aren't distinct:
>  https://medium.com/swlh/the-zombie-mobile-b03932ac971d
>  though they're recognisable (through their badges, accessories, specific
>  colour
>  schemes, etc.). An SUV and a sedan are distinct. 
Yeah, partly based on your feedback we decided to replace the word distinct with the
word distinguishable, as distinct as you are pointing out can be understood to imply 
more radical changes than what we are looking for here.

> _______________________________________________
> desktop mailing list -- desktop(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to desktop-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>

Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

[Andreas Nilsson]

On 2016-12-02 15:06, Christian Schaller wrote:
>  Hi, so I haven't put anything on the wiki yet, but here is my
> current proposal:
>
>  Mission statement for Branding
>  We want to use branding elements in our desktop to create a distinct visual identity for
> Fedora Workstation.
>  These branding elements should signal that Fedora Workstation is more than just a sum of
> its parts and over
>  time develop instant recognizability of Fedora Workstation in screenshots, presentations
> and daily use.
>
>  -------------
>  I be happy for input and improvement suggestions from the community on this. Be aware
> that we are trying to
>  be systematic about this, so lets do this step by step. This statement is meant to
> clearly show what we want
>  to achieve with our branding, so it avoids talking about implementation. We will then
> later talk implementation
>  in light of this mission statement.
>
>  Christian 
Would it be good to add something about "Creating a consistent and 
pleasant experience"? (except in not-bad-wording like that, of course)
I booted a RHEL 7.3 Workstation system the other day, and the transition 
from boot screen to login prompt was a lot less jarring compared to my 
Fedora Workstation systems.
It felt a lot more like a full experience, instead of just a sum of 
random technologies put together.
I know some movement have been made in that direction, but just want to 
make sure it doesn't clash with this effort.
- Andreas

Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

[Matthew Miller]

On Mon, Dec 05, 2016 at 09:52:05AM -0500, Christian Schaller wrote:
>  > Distinct means it's clearly different. Those car models
> aren't
>  > distinct: https://medium.com/swlh/the-zombie-mobile-b03932ac971d
>  > though they're recognisable (through their badges, accessories,
>  > specific colour schemes, etc.). An SUV and a sedan are distinct.
>  Yeah, partly based on your feedback we decided to replace the word
>  distinct with the word distinguishable, as distinct as you are
>  pointing out can be understood to imply more radical changes than
>  what we are looking for here. 
I prefer "distinct", actually, in the full sense — for the car analogy,
think of those Volkswagen commercials when they re-launched the Beetle.
But in the interest of compromise I'm okay with distinguishable. Maybe,
though, "clearly distinguishable" — not just distinguishable if you
are an expert and know a trick.



-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 07:50:18PM -0600, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
>  On Thu, 2016-12-01 at 18:41 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>  > * coredumpctl -- mcatanzaro
>  >         * Michael did a Change page for F26. Let's make sure we know
>  > what
>  >           the next steps are so it gets picked up by the
>  > wrangler/FESCo, and
>  >                 plan developer contact as needed.
>  
>  Hi,
>  
>  I've posted the change proposal page at [1]. 
Nice! I'm obviously biased, but I do think that coredumpctl provides
a nice experience when using a machine for development and debugging.
Couple of nitpicks:

"coredumpctl" is just a front-end, and systemd-coredump is the thing
that actually does the work. The meaning is clear, but strictly speaking,
coredumpctl itself cannot be enabled or disabled.

>  Core dumps will now be stored in the systemd journal 
That's
misleading. Current behaviour of systemd-coredump is to store
the metadata in the journal, and the coredump on disk. Storing it in
the journal was rather inefficient, and we backed away from this. I
think saying "Core dumps will be processed by systemd-coredump and
information about core dumps will be stored in the journal" or
something along those lines would be better.

>  rather than created in the crashing process's current working
> directory by ABRT 
Doesn't abrt store the coredumps in /var/tmp?

>  Notably, crash-time stacktraces will no longer be available 
Can
you explain this a bit more? systemd-coredump generates stack traces
at crash time. Is something missing from them?

>  Developers who prefer to manually work with core dumps will still be
>  able to revert to the previous behavior. 
Previous behaviour would be abrt handling
core dumps.

>  Write some program that crashes (e.g. "int main() {
> ((void(*)())0)(); }"),  
That's too much work ;) bash -c 'kill -SEGV
$$' works just as well.

Zbyszek

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Mon, 2016-12-05 at 17:03 +0000, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
>  That's misleading. Current behaviour of systemd-coredump is to
> store
>  the metadata in the journal, and the coredump on disk. Storing it in
>  the journal was rather inefficient, and we backed away from this. I
>  think saying "Core dumps will be processed by systemd-coredump and
>  information about core dumps will be stored in the journal" or
>  something along those lines would be better. 
OK, I revised the change page to reflect this.

>  > rather than created in the crashing process's current
> working
>  > directory by ABRT
>  
>  Doesn't abrt store the coredumps in /var/tmp? 
If you set ulimit it creates the core dumps in cwd. At least it did in
F23; it's probably broken in F24 due to SELinux or systemd or something
or other, but creating core dumps in cwd is definitely the previous and
intended Fedora behavior.

>  > Notably, crash-time stacktraces will no longer be available
>  
>  Can you explain this a bit more? systemd-coredump generates stack
>  traces
>  at crash time. Is something missing from them? 
I do not know. It's not essential for the change page, so I'll just
remove it for now, unless somebody else chimes in.

>  > Developers who prefer to manually work with core dumps will
> still
>  > be
>  > able to revert to the previous behavior.
>  
>  Previous behaviour would be abrt handling core dumps. 
Yup, or you can revert to traditional Linux behavior too... choice etc.

>  > Write some program that crashes (e.g. "int main() {
>  > ((void(*)())0)(); }"), 
>  
>  That's too much work ;) bash -c 'kill -SEGV $$' works just as well. 
Yeah, that's better indeed.

Michael

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2016-12-05 at 11:50 -0600, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
>  On Mon, 2016-12-05 at 17:03 +0000, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
> wrote:
>  > That's misleading. Current behaviour of systemd-coredump is to store
>  > the metadata in the journal, and the coredump on disk. Storing it in
>  > the journal was rather inefficient, and we backed away from this. I
>  > think saying "Core dumps will be processed by systemd-coredump and
>  > information about core dumps will be stored in the journal" or
>  > something along those lines would be better.
>  
>  OK, I revised the change page to reflect this.
>  
>  > > rather than created in the crashing process's current working
>  > > directory by ABRT
>  > 
>  > Doesn't abrt store the coredumps in /var/tmp?
>  
>  If you set ulimit it creates the core dumps in cwd. At least it did in
>  F23; it's probably broken in F24 due to SELinux or systemd or something
>  or other, but creating core dumps in cwd is definitely the previous and
>  intended Fedora behavior. 
So far as I've seen, it always stores them in /var/spool/abrt .
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net

[Jakub Filak]

"
---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: Michael Catanzaro <mcatanzaro(a)gnome.org&gt;
Komu: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <desktop@lists.
fedoraproject.org>
Datum: 5. 12. 2016 18:51:18
Předmět: Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

"On Mon, 2016-12-05 at 17:03 +0000, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
>  That's misleading. Current behaviour of systemd-coredump is to
> store
>  the metadata in the journal, and the coredump on disk. Storing it in
>  the journal was rather inefficient, and we backed away from this. I
>  think saying "Core dumps will be processed by systemd-coredump and
>  information about core dumps will be stored in the journal" or
>  something along those lines would be better. 
OK, I revised the change page to reflect this.

>  > rather than created in the crashing process's current
> working
>  > directory by ABRT
>  
>  Doesn't abrt store the coredumps in /var/tmp? 
If you set ulimit it creates the core dumps in cwd. At least it did in
F23; it's probably broken in F24 due to SELinux or systemd or something
or other, but creating core dumps in cwd is definitely the previous and
intended Fedora behavior."



ABRT stores the core dump files in /var/spool/abrt and starting with systemd
-229, ABRT does

not create the core dump files in CWD because RLIMIT_CORE (ulimit -c) is 
unlimited by default:

https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/master/NEWS#L895
(https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/master/NEWS#L895)


 
"

>  > Notably, crash-time stacktraces will no longer be available
>  
>  Can you explain this a bit more? systemd-coredump generates stack
>  traces
>  at crash time. Is something missing from them? 
I do not know. It's not essential for the change page, so I'll just
remove it for now, unless somebody else chimes in."



ABRT creates stack trace from the dying process rather than from its core 
dump file.

This approach produces more reliable traces because possibly removed 
libraries are still

available in memory. It has the benefit that users can turn off saving core 
dump files

 to disk. This feature has been requested by developers of applications 
consuming enormous

amounts of memory.

 

"

>  > Developers who prefer to manually work with core dumps will
> still
>  > be
>  > able to revert to the previous behavior.
>  
>  Previous behaviour would be abrt handling core dumps. 
Yup, or you can revert to traditional Linux behavior too... choice etc."



Reverting to traditional Linux behavior is a bit challenge with systemd 
setting RLIMIT_CORE to unlimited.

One must not forget to tell systemd to leave RLIMIT_CORE=0.



"

>  > Write some program that crashes (e.g. "int main() {
>  > ((void(*)())0)(); }"), 
>  
>  That's too much work ;) bash -c 'kill -SEGV $$' works just as well. 
Yeah, that's better indeed.
"









Regards,

Jakub 
"

[Bastien Nocera]

----- Original Message -----
<snip>
>  > Write some program that crashes (e.g. "int main() {
> ((void(*)())0)(); }"),
>  That's too much work ;) bash -c 'kill -SEGV $$' works just as well. 
The "will-crash" package has this, but for a number of different languages
for which ABRT can catch exceptions (Python, Java, etc.) or crashes (C++, etc.)

Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

[Jiri Eischmann]

Christian Schaller píše v Pá 02. 12. 2016 v 09:06 -0500:
>  Hi, so I haven't put anything on the wiki yet, but here is my
> current
>  proposal:
>  
>  Mission statement for Branding
>  We want to use branding elements in our desktop to create a distinct
>  visual identity for Fedora Workstation. 
>  These branding elements should signal that Fedora Workstation is more
>  than just a sum of its parts and over 
>  time develop instant recognizability of Fedora Workstation in
>  screenshots, presentations and daily use.
>  
>  -------------
>  I be happy for input and improvement suggestions from the community
>  on this. Be aware that we are trying to
>  be systematic about this, so lets do this step by step. This
>  statement is meant to clearly show what we want
>  to achieve with our branding, so it avoids talking about
>  implementation. We will then later talk implementation
>  in light of this mission statement.
>  
>  Christian 
I would also like to add that wherever we make UI text changes to
improve recognizability of Fedora we should make sure those changes can
be translated because it has not been the case with quite a few of our
downstream patches we've made. Otherwise it does more harm than good.
I read one review of Fedora 25 and the reviewer complained about Fedora
Workstation not being fully translated just because of one untranslated
 string ('OS Type') in the Settings/Details.
There are not many of them, but apparently even one can ruin the
impression.

Jiri

>  ----- Original Message -----
>  > From: "Paul W. Frields" <stickster(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  > To: desktop(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 6:41:37 PM
>  > Subject: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05
>  > 
>  > **NOTE** We will move our meeting to 9:00am US Eastern time (that's
>  >   1400 UTC) Monday, 2016-Dec-05.
>  > 
>  > Below are current agenda items I know about.  Corrections and
>  > additions are welcome; please send them by Sunday evening.  In the
>  > future I plan to get this agenda out on Wednesday evening before
>  > the
>  > meeting, with agenda items due by Friday night.
>  > 
>  > * Branding -- cschaller
>  > 	* Christian was to have a proposal ready to walk the WG through
>  > and
>  > 		start gathering input.  Does this exist yet on the
>  > wiki?
>  > 
>  > * coredumpctl -- mcatanzaro
>  > 	* Michael did a Change page for F26. Let's make sure we know
>  > what
>  > 	  the next steps are so it gets picked up by the
>  > wrangler/FESCo, and
>  > 		plan developer contact as needed.
>  > 
>  > 
>  > --
>  > Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.
>  > org/
>  >   gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11
>  > 3717
>  >   http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.or
>  > g/
>  >     The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > desktop mailing list -- desktop(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > To unsubscribe send an email to desktop-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.o
>  > rg
>  > 
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  desktop mailing list -- desktop(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to desktop-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org

Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

[Bastien Nocera]

----- Original Message -----
>  Christian Schaller píše v Pá 02. 12. 2016 v 09:06 -0500:
>  > Hi, so I haven't put anything on the wiki yet, but here is my current
>  > proposal:
>  > 
>  > Mission statement for Branding
>  > We want to use branding elements in our desktop to create a distinct
>  > visual identity for Fedora Workstation.
>  > These branding elements should signal that Fedora Workstation is more
>  > than just a sum of its parts and over
>  > time develop instant recognizability of Fedora Workstation in
>  > screenshots, presentations and daily use.
>  > 
>  > -------------
>  > I be happy for input and improvement suggestions from the community
>  > on this. Be aware that we are trying to
>  > be systematic about this, so lets do this step by step. This
>  > statement is meant to clearly show what we want
>  > to achieve with our branding, so it avoids talking about
>  > implementation. We will then later talk implementation
>  > in light of this mission statement.
>  > 
>  > Christian
>  
>  I would also like to add that wherever we make UI text changes to
>  improve recognizability of Fedora we should make sure those changes can
>  be translated because it has not been the case with quite a few of our
>  downstream patches we've made. Otherwise it does more harm than good.
>  I read one review of Fedora 25 and the reviewer complained about Fedora
>  Workstation not being fully translated just because of one untranslated
>   string ('OS Type') in the Settings/Details.
>  There are not many of them, but apparently even one can ruin the
>  impression. 
Downstream patches (in Fedora) usually don't get translated.

Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

[Jiri Eischmann]

Bastien Nocera píše v St 28. 12. 2016 v 04:46 -0500:
>  
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  > Christian Schaller píše v Pá 02. 12. 2016 v 09:06 -0500:
>  > > Hi, so I haven't put anything on the wiki yet, but here is my
>  > > current
>  > > proposal:
>  > > 
>  > > Mission statement for Branding
>  > > We want to use branding elements in our desktop to create a
>  > > distinct
>  > > visual identity for Fedora Workstation.
>  > > These branding elements should signal that Fedora Workstation is
>  > > more
>  > > than just a sum of its parts and over
>  > > time develop instant recognizability of Fedora Workstation in
>  > > screenshots, presentations and daily use.
>  > > 
>  > > -------------
>  > > I be happy for input and improvement suggestions from the
>  > > community
>  > > on this. Be aware that we are trying to
>  > > be systematic about this, so lets do this step by step. This
>  > > statement is meant to clearly show what we want
>  > > to achieve with our branding, so it avoids talking about
>  > > implementation. We will then later talk implementation
>  > > in light of this mission statement.
>  > > 
>  > > Christian
>  > 
>  > I would also like to add that wherever we make UI text changes to
>  > improve recognizability of Fedora we should make sure those changes
>  > can
>  > be translated because it has not been the case with quite a few of
>  > our
>  > downstream patches we've made. Otherwise it does more harm than
>  > good.
>  > I read one review of Fedora 25 and the reviewer complained about
>  > Fedora
>  > Workstation not being fully translated just because of one
>  > untranslated
>  >  string ('OS Type') in the Settings/Details.
>  > There are not many of them, but apparently even one can ruin the
>  > impression.
>  
>  Downstream patches (in Fedora) usually don't get translated. 
Yeah,
that's what I've noticed...
I just hope that any solution to the special Fedora Workstation
branding will take this into account because it definitely harms the
impression and looks unprofessional.

Jiri

Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Wed, 2017-01-04 at 12:40 +0100, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
>  Yeah,
>  that's what I've noticed...
>  I just hope that any solution to the special Fedora Workstation
>  branding will take this into account because it definitely harms the
>  impression and looks unprofessional.
>  
>  Jiri 
I think someone was planning to upstream this change (Bastien, or
Matthias)? There's no reason it has to stay downstream. The only
Fedora-specific parts are our name and logo which can be settings.

Michael

Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

[Matthew Miller]

On Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 07:48:41AM -0600, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
>  I think someone was planning to upstream this change (Bastien, or
>  Matthias)? There's no reason it has to stay downstream. The only
>  Fedora-specific parts are our name and logo which can be settings. 
And which should not be translated (including "Fedora Workstation",
even though Workstation is an English word).

-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

[Bastien Nocera]

----- Original Message -----
>  On Wed, 2017-01-04 at 12:40 +0100, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
>  > Yeah,
>  > that's what I've noticed...
>  > I just hope that any solution to the special Fedora Workstation
>  > branding will take this into account because it definitely harms the
>  > impression and looks unprofessional.
>  > 
>  > Jiri
>  
>  I think someone was planning to upstream this change (Bastien, or
>  Matthias)? There's no reason it has to stay downstream. The only
>  Fedora-specific parts are our name and logo which can be settings. 
Kalev started:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=770593

And as a follow-up:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=695691