Hi, I'm wondering what is the state of relations between Fedora and compiz-fusion projects? I see that lot of other distros have 3D Desktop as a feature for few releases back even in the installers. In Fedora there is a option "Enable desktop effects" but it looks from users point of view that it is there only so that nobody can't say that fedora project doesn't have 3D desktop feature. I personaly have a feeling when I use it that this feature it is not given enough attention in Fedora. Some distributions ask during the install if users would like to start 3D desktop feature, and in Fedora users usually need to know exactly where to go to enable 3D effects. I'm not saying that one is better that the other, just saying what I see on other distros.
I'm not trying to start some flame bait thread, but I'm really asking what is the official Fedora project standpoint regarding 3D Desktop.
Cheers, Valent.
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Hi,
In Fedora there is a option "Enable desktop effects" but it looks from users point of view that it is there only so that nobody can't say that fedora project doesn't have 3D desktop feature.
You are being obnoxious. AIGLX which is used in most distributions for "3D desktops" today was developed with Fedora.
I'm not trying to start some flame bait thread, but I'm really asking what is the official Fedora project standpoint regarding 3D Desktop.
http://hoegsberg.blogspot.com/2007/08/compiz-and-fedora.html
Rahul
On Feb 1, 2008 3:15 PM, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Hi,
In Fedora there is a option "Enable desktop effects" but it looks from users point of view that it is there only so that nobody can't say that fedora project doesn't have 3D desktop feature.
You are being obnoxious. AIGLX which is used in most distributions for "3D desktops" today was developed with Fedora.
Maybe Valent is right, that for a *user* (someone unaware of what's under the hood, and, moreover, who coded it) looking at desktop-efffects, it may indeed seem that way. If it does, then we're not giving the correct picture out there. Which is something that nowadays we all agree we should work on fixing.
-d
I'm not trying to start some flame bait thread, but I'm really asking what is the official Fedora project standpoint regarding 3D Desktop.
http://hoegsberg.blogspot.com/2007/08/compiz-and-fedora.html
Rahul
On Feb 1, 2008 2:42 PM, Dimitris Glezos dimitris@glezos.com wrote:
On Feb 1, 2008 3:15 PM, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Hi,
In Fedora there is a option "Enable desktop effects" but it looks from users point of view that it is there only so that nobody can't say that fedora project doesn't have 3D desktop feature.
You are being obnoxious. AIGLX which is used in most distributions for "3D desktops" today was developed with Fedora.
Maybe Valent is right, that for a *user* (someone unaware of what's under the hood, and, moreover, who coded it) looking at desktop-efffects, it may indeed seem that way. If it does, then we're not giving the correct picture out there. Which is something that nowadays we all agree we should work on fixing.
-d
I know that you are devels here and that have the other insight that I users do (like me), but please look at it from my perpective. First I know that red hat developers made aiglx (I bloged about it 3 years ago) but since a lot has happened. Novell put out XGL and compiz worked only with XGL in the beginning (novell got a lot of heat for that) and now compiz works with both XGL and aiglx. Then came beryl... and finaly compiz-fusion project. And although I know that all those project benefited from aiglx the general perspection is that "beryl" or now "compiz-fusion" enables 3D to desktop, users don't know that Fedora and Red hat are to thank for most of that.
Not for the part of Fedra - I saw lots of distros that enabled "3D Desktop" even as back as 3 releases ago... and Fedora still does not. I read the blog post Rahul gave me and I thought as much - great developers in fedora and red hat want thing to work better so they are fixing issues and not releasing to early. I understand that. Other distros may have gone and enabled it and had more issues that they had positive feedback or and maybe they had more positive feedback, I don't know.
This question arose when I saw how fedora pushes the envelope of a modern desktop on many fronts - PulseAudio being just one of them, and using them before other distros, and compare that to 3D Dektop feature looks like 3D desktop is being ignored - this is ofcourse just from a users point of view because I know that there is lot of work "under the hood" that normal users don't see.
Valent.
On Feb 1, 2008 2:15 PM, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Hi,
In Fedora there is a option "Enable desktop effects" but it looks from users point of view that it is there only so that nobody can't say that fedora project doesn't have 3D desktop feature.
You are being obnoxious. AIGLX which is used in most distributions for "3D desktops" today was developed with Fedora.
Have I offended you in some way?
I'm not trying to start some flame bait thread, but I'm really asking what is the official Fedora project standpoint regarding 3D Desktop.
http://hoegsberg.blogspot.com/2007/08/compiz-and-fedora.html
Rahul
I know about aigxl being made by red hat developers, I bloged about it some 3 years ago on my blog when nobody outside red hat knew that aiglx.
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/index.php/archives/extremni-eyecandy/
ps. thanks for the link, I'll read it right now
Valent
Valent Turkovic wrote:
On Feb 1, 2008 2:15 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Hi, In Fedora there is a option "Enable desktop effects" but it looks from users point of view that it is there only so that nobody can't say that fedora project doesn't have 3D desktop feature.
You are being obnoxious. AIGLX which is used in most distributions for "3D desktops" today was developed with Fedora.
Have I offended you in some way?
No. I merely find that claim unnecessary and inflammatory especially with the knowledge that tells you otherwise. Asking a question about development plans is perfectly fine otherwise.
Rahul
On Feb 1, 2008 5:39 PM, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
On Feb 1, 2008 2:15 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Hi, In Fedora there is a option "Enable desktop effects" but it looks from users point of view that it is there only so that nobody can't say that fedora project doesn't have 3D desktop feature.
You are being obnoxious. AIGLX which is used in most distributions for "3D desktops" today was developed with Fedora.
Have I offended you in some way?
No. I merely find that claim unnecessary and inflammatory especially with the knowledge that tells you otherwise. Asking a question about development plans is perfectly fine otherwise.
Why do you believe so strongly that I was dishonest when I said that it wasn't a flame bait?
I really wanted an answer about "3D Desktop" and that to me is not equal to aiglx. Aiglx is the base of it AFAIK but doesn't make it by itself. 3D Desktop is for me aiglx+compiz fusion+configuring some defalt behaviour on gnome, etc...
Valent.
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Why do you believe so strongly that I was dishonest when I said that it wasn't a flame bait?
You previous claims in the same email looked inconsistent with your last assertion and you have been posting similar mails in other lists too. I would have phrased it entirely differently if I was merely asking a question about Feature X or development plan Y. Besides the blog link I posted was the first hit when searching for "Compiz default in Fedora"
Also noticed,
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewGdm has been updated now with some information on Compiz.
Rahul
On Feb 1, 2008 6:24 PM, Valent Turkovic valent.turkovic@gmail.com wrote:
On Feb 1, 2008 5:39 PM, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
On Feb 1, 2008 2:15 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Hi, In Fedora there is a option "Enable desktop effects" but it looks from users point of view that it is there only so that nobody can't say that fedora project doesn't have 3D desktop feature.
You are being obnoxious. AIGLX which is used in most distributions for "3D desktops" today was developed with Fedora.
Have I offended you in some way?
No. I merely find that claim unnecessary and inflammatory especially with the knowledge that tells you otherwise. Asking a question about development plans is perfectly fine otherwise.
Why do you believe so strongly that I was dishonest when I said that it wasn't a flame bait?
I really wanted an answer about "3D Desktop" and that to me is not equal to aiglx. Aiglx is the base of it AFAIK but doesn't make it by itself. 3D Desktop is for me aiglx+compiz fusion+configuring some defalt behaviour on gnome, etc...
Valent.
I have just enabled compiz-fusion, because I usually don't use it... and I have these issues: - keyboard super key currenty isn't properly setup (and I have Cherry Linux keyboard with tux on super key :) ) - some plugins don't work even if they are enabled - shortcuts overlap and start some other effect that ones I setup in CompizConfig Settings
These are some minore bugs but still show that compiz and compiz-fusion on Fedora needs some polish compared to other distros that ship compiz and compiz-fusion that JustWork for users.
I'm wasn't sure that fedora was even looking to enable compiz, and now that I see it will I'll go and test compiz and compiz fusion more and submit bugs in bz.
Cheers, Valent.
On Feb 1, 2008 7:37 PM, Valent Turkovic valent.turkovic@gmail.com wrote:
I have just enabled compiz-fusion, because I usually don't use it... and I have these issues:
- keyboard super key currenty isn't properly setup (and I have Cherry
Linux keyboard with tux on super key :) )
- some plugins don't work even if they are enabled
- shortcuts overlap and start some other effect that ones I setup in
CompizConfig Settings
These are some minore bugs but still show that compiz and compiz-fusion on Fedora needs some polish compared to other distros that ship compiz and compiz-fusion that JustWork for users.
I'm wasn't sure that fedora was even looking to enable compiz, and now that I see it will I'll go and test compiz and compiz fusion more and submit bugs in bz.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=431302
I also found this bug and it affects KDE4 and gnome desktop with compiz running with dual screen setup.
Valent.
Enabling compiz by default can not be done yet because some applications simply do not work correctly with it (windowed opengl apps etc.). Work is being done to fix this (redirected direct rendering). Without it enabling compiz by default isn't an option, but users have the option to enable it via 4 clicks.
On Feb 1, 2008 5:35 PM, drago01 drago01@gmail.com wrote:
Enabling compiz by default can not be done yet because some applications simply do not work correctly with it (windowed opengl apps etc.). Work is being done to fix this (redirected direct rendering). Without it enabling compiz by default isn't an option, but users have the option to enable it via 4 clicks.
This is the answer I was looking for.
Thank you Drago.
On Feb 1, 2008 3:47 AM, Valent Turkovic valent.turkovic@gmail.com wrote:
Some distributions ask during the install if users would like to start 3D desktop feature, and in Fedora users usually need to know exactly where to go to enable 3D effects. I'm not saying that one is better that the other, just saying what I see on other distros.
In the future, please do not make general comparisons about 'other distros' when you want to make a comparative statement. If you want to make a comparison, say specifically which distros you want other people to look at. There's absolutely no way for me to know which distros you are talking about.. and i'm sure as hell not going to start randomly installing distros from distrowatch in an effort to understand exactly what you are talking about.
Valent, you have already commented in another location that you want to see podcasts. Here's is a perfect example where YOU could have provided some sort of video podcast for the rest of us to watch so the we can understand exactly what you are talking about.. It would have been a very good use of a video podcast. Making some rather generalized statements about unspecified 'other distros' doesn't give us enough information to even have a competent dialog.
In the future, you must be more specific.
-jef.
-jef
On Feb 4, 2008 12:28 AM, Jeff Spaleta jspaleta@gmail.com wrote:
On Feb 1, 2008 3:47 AM, Valent Turkovic valent.turkovic@gmail.com wrote:
Some distributions ask during the install if users would like to start 3D desktop feature, and in Fedora users usually need to know exactly where to go to enable 3D effects. I'm not saying that one is better that the other, just saying what I see on other distros.
In the future, please do not make general comparisons about 'other distros' when you want to make a comparative statement. If you want to make a comparison, say specifically which distros you want other people to look at. There's absolutely no way for me to know which distros you are talking about.. and i'm sure as hell not going to start randomly installing distros from distrowatch in an effort to understand exactly what you are talking about.
Well I had a really bad experience on fedora lists with naming the exact distros and that is why I opted to be a bit elusive this time. My experience is that fedora devels (or non devels on this lists) don't like mentioning names like ubuntu, opensuse, mandriva, etc... and don't like being compared and that is why I didn't name any names.
Ubuntu and Mandriva are the ones I thought about but didn't mention out loud.
Valent, you have already commented in another location that you want to see podcasts. Here's is a perfect example where YOU could have provided some sort of video podcast for the rest of us to watch so the we can understand exactly what you are talking about.. It would have been a very good use of a video podcast. Making some rather generalized statements about unspecified 'other distros' doesn't give us enough information to even have a competent dialog.
Can you be just a bit more specific? I can do that... what would be cool - a video podcast about comparing fedora and different distros of 3D desktop bugs I came across?
In the future, you must be more specific.
No problem.
Cheers, Valent.
On Feb 4, 2008 6:59 PM, Valent Turkovic valent.turkovic@gmail.com wrote:
Valent, you have already commented in another location that you want to see podcasts. Here's is a perfect example where YOU could have provided some sort of video podcast for the rest of us to watch so the we can understand exactly what you are talking about.. It would have been a very good use of a video podcast. Making some rather generalized statements about unspecified 'other distros' doesn't give us enough information to even have a competent dialog.
I had an unfortunate lapsus calami in previous post.
I wanted to ask what would be interesting to see in video podcast form? Would it be more interesting to compare some features that I see other distros have that would also be beneficial in Fedora? Or are you talking about 3D Desktop and that it would be interesting for you to see issues with regular usage of 3D Desktop on Fedora?
Cheers, Valent.
On Feb 4, 2008 12:25 PM, Valent Turkovic valent.turkovic@gmail.com wrote:
I wanted to ask what would be interesting to see in video podcast form? Would it be more interesting to compare some features that I see other distros have that would also be beneficial in Fedora?
I personally do not care about what other distros do or do not do. I personally don't care about any of this 3d desktop crap... at all. Even when it looks good... its pointless distraction.
What I am suggesting is that you need to find a better way to communicate some of what you care about, in a way that persuades other people to care.
Right now your writing style on mailinglists is starting to put people off. If your ultimate goal is to persuade other people to act on things you want to see done, you need to make some adjustments in your approach, or you are just going to be tuned out. I'm even having a hard time at this point, and I'm making an effort, a serious effort, to watch what you post and respond constructively.
You've previously stated that you want to see podcasts... well here's your chance to take a leading role and start producing podcast and by doing so encouraging people to follow your lead.
-jef
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
-
Dimitris Glezos -
drago01 -
Jef Spaleta -
Rahul Sundaram -
Valent Turkovic