will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7?

[Valent Turkovic]

Will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7?

I don't see any "cd/dvd burning application" in gnome menu after a
clean Fedora 7 test 4 install. Why is that?

I know nautilus has burning functionality - but usability wise it is
terrible located and I can bet that no standard user will ever find
it.

Don't you do usability testing? Put a your mum, dad or some fiends and
ask them do try and burn a dvd or cd... and watch what they do.

[Bastien Nocera]

On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 10:17 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> Will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7?

There's nautilus-cd-burner
> I don't see any "cd/dvd burning application" in gnome menu after a
> clean Fedora 7 test 4 install. Why is that?

There is, it's nautilus-cd-burner
> I know nautilus has burning functionality - but usability wise it is
> terrible located and I can bet that no standard user will ever find
> it.

Ha! So why the rethorical questions?
> Don't you do usability testing? Put a your mum, dad or some fiends and
> ask them do try and burn a dvd or cd... and watch what they do.

Please avoid flamebaits.

If nautilus-cd-burner doesn't have a good interface, please write down
the use cases, and explain the current workflow, then we can try to
enhance it, and make it better for mum, dad and the friends.

[Nicu Buculei]

Bastien Nocera wrote:
> If nautilus-cd-burner doesn't have a good interface, please write down
> the use cases, and explain the current workflow, then we can try to
> enhance it, and make it better for mum, dad and the friends.

If I put down a couple of use cases for writing multisession discs with 
nautilus-burn, I stand any chance to convince someone?
I know the feature was talked in the past and rejected because blanks 
are very cheap these days.

[Bastien Nocera]

On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 11:33 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > If nautilus-cd-burner doesn't have a good interface, please write down
> > the use cases, and explain the current workflow, then we can try to
> > enhance it, and make it better for mum, dad and the friends.
>
> If I put down a couple of use cases for writing multisession discs with 
> nautilus-burn, I stand any chance to convince someone?
> I know the feature was talked in the past and rejected because blanks 
> are very cheap these days.

And also because there's no link between blank media (ie, in a specific
drive) and the CD/DVD creator UI and there's no easy way to show the
existing files differently in nautilus.

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Le vendredi 18 mai 2007 à 10:22 +0100, Bastien Nocera a écrit :
> > > If nautilus-cd-burner doesn't have a good interface, please write down
> > > the use cases, and explain the current workflow, then we can try to
> > > enhance it, and make it better for mum, dad and the friends.

nautilus-cd-burner tries too hard to be a file manager and as a result
its task-oriented UI sucks, its menu entry is not in the right place,
etc

Something like brasero that reuses good parts of the nautilus file
selector but is dedicated to burning without trying to be something else
is much more user-friendly (not that brasero couldn't be improved a lot,
but at least its basics are sound)

[Bastien Nocera]

On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 11:39 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Le vendredi 18 mai 2007 à 10:22 +0100, Bastien Nocera a écrit :
> > > > If nautilus-cd-burner doesn't have a good interface, please write down
> > > > the use cases, and explain the current workflow, then we can try to
> > > > enhance it, and make it better for mum, dad and the friends.
>
> nautilus-cd-burner tries too hard to be a file manager and as a result
> its task-oriented UI sucks, its menu entry is not in the right place,
> etc
>
> Something like brasero that reuses good parts of the nautilus file
> selector but is dedicated to burning without trying to be something else
> is much more user-friendly (not that brasero couldn't be improved a lot,
> but at least its basics are sound)

Ok, let's compare this to the Apple burner UI (not their strong point,
to be fair).

To create a new data disk, other than the integrated "export" functions
in iPhoto, iTunes, etc. you need to:
- Open the Disk Utility
- Create a new image of a certain size (will show up on the Desktop)
- Drag'n'drop files using the file manager in the disk utility
- Burn the image back in the Disk Utility

What do you think of:
- when blank CD/DVD is inserted, popup non-spatial nautilus window, with
the sidebar tree rooted at CD/DVD creator
- remove CD/DVD creator from the places menu
- Add a "Master and burn CD/DVD" application entry in the system tools
menu

Would it make the task smoother? This is why I asked for use-cases and
workflows, they're not just for show, they're useful.

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Le vendredi 18 mai 2007 à 10:50 +0100, Bastien Nocera a écrit :
> What do you think of:
> when blank CD/DVD is inserted, popup non-spatial nautilus window, with
>
> the sidebar tree rooted at CD/DVD creator

unfortunately, won't work
> remove CD/DVD creator from the places menu

yes
> Add a "Master and burn CD/DVD" application entry in the system tools
>
> menu

yes
> Would it make the task smoother? This is why I asked for use-cases and
> workflows, they're not just for show, they're useful.

Ok, you asked for it. I apologize if a certain level of frustration and
fury at the )@#! default GNOME solution leaks through.

I'll only write about mastering random data disks since
audio/video/picture disk mastering is likely to be launched from
dedicated apps, which should pre-answer many questions and only call the
burn app for the last burn stage

Ideal solution:

1. have a "Master and burn CD/DVD" application entry in the system tools
menu

2. the first time a new kind of blank is inserted, ask if the user wants
to launch the app (and remember the answer even if it's "do nothing")

3. when the app is launched, display a multi-area single window with one
part dedicated to selecting things to burn and the other showing the
current to-burn disk composition. Pin the to-burn part so it never
disappears from the screen

4. provide many sizing hints to help users fit data on disk. Biggest
hurdle when burning things is making them fit. Examples:
- size column in the file selector part so users see the size of what
they can select (not in number of files, in number of bytes)
- nero-like iso size gauge (showing the limits of the inserted blank,
user-overridable with typical blank sizes)
- baobab view of the to-burn selection, with a slice showing what space
is left or what space needs to be removed to fit on one disk

5. if the selection is too big for one image, auto-split it on several
disks (using smart date & hierarchy splitting so the split makes
senses). Provide user feedback on the envisioned split (for examples
using stripes of different colour for separate disk content in the
to-burn area)

6. do auto-filtering of commonly filtered files (hidden & backup files,
etc) but show the user what you're filtering and help him put some of
them back in the disk image if he wants to burn them too (when you do a
home backup you do not want to lose dotfiles/dirs). This can be done
with a similar area to the to-burn area + user drag & dropping from one
to the other

7. when the user selects burn :
- propose to name the disk
- propose to associate an icon to the disk
- propose to add md5/sha1/sha256 file sums to the disk (and sign it
using seahorse)
- propose to chain-check this list after the burn (no intermediate
dialog that kills unattended burning)
- propose to chain-burn several disk copies

Ideal user workflow : insert blank, drag & drop stuff in the burn area
(with all the visual hints helping check everything is ok in real-time),
press burn, name disks, go take a coffee.

Because nautilus-cd-burner thinks it's a file manager not a burn app it
fails this in numerous ways:

1. in spacial mode you are forced to interact with many windows (some
bright person added a firefox-like blue burn line to avoid a separate
menu/popup, but wasn't choked by the multi-window spacial requirement or
the general unfitness of the nautilus UI to the task)

2. in non-spacial mode nautilus will just change folders and leave
burning mode at the slightest opportunity because it didn't noticed we
asked to burn things and just thinks we are browsing yet another folder

3. you have zip sizing help (again nautilus-cd-burner will apply common
file manager rules and forget we are doing a specific task with specific
constraints). And when you get to the burn stage you better hope the
total size is burnable because the app is not going to help you

4. however you have a ton of unrelated menu items (emblems, shortcuts…)
that clutter the UI and have no relevance for a burn task

5. you have zip checksumming/signing/verifying options, when scratched
disks are a major user worry

On the plus side nautilus is about as broken as the windows thing people
are writing vengeful reviews about, so ex-windows users will happily
note Linux is as broken-by-design as windows.

Because apps like brasero or k3b are written to help users actually burn
stuff (instead of trying to masquerade a file manager as a burning app)
they are light-years ahead of the nautilus thing usability-wise.

In the course of this review I had nautilus-burn die at least twice from
to-burn selections it choked on.

[Steffen Kluge]

On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 10:50 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> Ok, let's compare this to the Apple burner UI (not their strong point,
> to be fair).
>
> To create a new data disk, other than the integrated "export" functions
> in iPhoto, iTunes, etc. you need to:
> Open the Disk Utility
> Create a new image of a certain size (will show up on the Desktop)
> Drag'n'drop files using the file manager in the disk utility
> Burn the image back in the Disk Utility

Not true. On my Mac it works like this:
- insert a blank CD, watch a blank CD icon appear on the desktop
- double-click blank CD icon to open it as a Finder window (optional)
- drag files into it (or onto the icon)
- click burn.

Disk Utility is not involved.

Cheers
Steffen.

[Valent Turkovic]

On 5/18/07, Bastien Nocera  wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 10:17 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> > Will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7?
>
> There's nautilus-cd-burner

Nope there is not. Not in my "Application" menu.
> > I don't see any "cd/dvd burning application" in gnome menu after a
> > clean Fedora 7 test 4 install. Why is that?
>
> There is, it's nautilus-cd-burner

I say again, there is not on my default Fedora 7 test 4 install.
> > I know nautilus has burning functionality - but usability wise it is
> > terrible located and I can bet that no standard user will ever find
> > it.
>
> Ha! So why the rethorical questions?

No it is not. It was a claim.
In my application menu under gnome there is not any item called "cd
burner" or nautilus cd burner... nothing.
> > Don't you do usability testing? Put a your mum, dad or some fiends and
> > ask them do try and burn a dvd or cd... and watch what they do.
>
> Please avoid flamebaits.

I'm not throwing flamebaits. I would like you to picture yourselves as
a new user who just installed his shiny new fedora 7 linux desktiop
and wan't to burn some files to a cd or a dvd. This user called Pero
has no idea that nautilus has burning option and concludes that this
linux thing has no cd/dvd burning app installed.
> If nautilus-cd-burner doesn't have a good interface, please write down
> the use cases, and explain the current workflow, then we can try to
> enhance it, and make it better for mum, dad and the friends.

I don't plan to. I would like to see k3b or at least brasero installed
by default on fedora desktops because you can't do anything but basic
burning with nautilus - and that is just confusing.

In current scenario you say to users use nautilus if you have simple
burning tasks, and if you have anything more complex install some
burning app and use that.

And I can say that people I talked to, who are medium-advanced users
from windows side just don't trust nautilus-burn or don't like it.
Even if they need to burn just one file - the task nautilus-burn does
perfectly - they still won't use it.

If your plan it to make Fedora desktop more accessible to
windows-switcher this argument is  not you should be ignoring.

I can argure that it is much better to say to users (by having it
installed by default) - go and use k3b as it can do anything you can
think off to a dvd or cd. In this case users use only one app  - and
get familiar with it from the start and don't have us use one in the
beginning and then switch to using another when nautilus-burn outgrows
their needs.

If you are too strict on k3b being a qt app then use brasero instead -
but use one at least.
> --
> Fedora-desktop-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list

[Bastien Nocera]

On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 11:07 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> On 5/18/07, Bastien Nocera  wrote:
> > On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 10:17 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> > > Will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7?
> >
> > There's nautilus-cd-burner
>
> Nope there is not. Not in my "Application" menu.

You can see it in "Places"
> > > I don't see any "cd/dvd burning application" in gnome menu after a
> > > clean Fedora 7 test 4 install. Why is that?
> >
> > There is, it's nautilus-cd-burner
>
> I say again, there is not on my default Fedora 7 test 4 install.

Same here.
> > > I know nautilus has burning functionality - but usability wise it is
> > > terrible located and I can bet that no standard user will ever find
> > > it.
> >
> > Ha! So why the rethorical questions?
>
> No it is not. It was a claim.
> In my application menu under gnome there is not any item called "cd
> burner" or nautilus cd burner... nothing.

It's under Places, again.
> > > Don't you do usability testing? Put a your mum, dad or some fiends and
> > > ask them do try and burn a dvd or cd... and watch what they do.
> >
> > Please avoid flamebaits.
>
> I'm not throwing flamebaits. I would like you to picture yourselves as
> a new user who just installed his shiny new fedora 7 linux desktiop
> and wan't to burn some files to a cd or a dvd. This user called Pero
> has no idea that nautilus has burning option and concludes that this
> linux thing has no cd/dvd burning app installed.

Then the problem is about making it more discoverable, not adding a menu
entry for another application.
> > If nautilus-cd-burner doesn't have a good interface, please write down
> > the use cases, and explain the current workflow, then we can try to
> > enhance it, and make it better for mum, dad and the friends.
>
> I don't plan to. I would like to see k3b or at least brasero installed
> by default on fedora desktops because you can't do anything but basic
> burning with nautilus - and that is just confusing.

What do you call advanced? Is it just multi-session discs?

The only other thing you can't do with the default install is mixed CDs
(audio + data), which I've never really seen used except commercially.
> In current scenario you say to users use nautilus if you have simple
> burning tasks, and if you have anything more complex install some
> burning app and use that.

What complex burning tasks?
> And I can say that people I talked to, who are medium-advanced users
> from windows side just don't trust nautilus-burn or don't like it.
> Even if they need to burn just one file - the task nautilus-burn does
> perfectly - they still won't use it.

Why don't they trust it? It uses cdrecord and growisofs just like k3b
does, so I'm not sure why one would be trusting one more than the other.
> If your plan it to make Fedora desktop more accessible to
> windows-switcher this argument is  not you should be ignoring.

We're not ignoring it, just that we don't know what the problem is, and
you're offering a quick-fix, not something thought out with evidence to
back it up.
> I can argure that it is much better to say to users (by having it
> installed by default) - go and use k3b as it can do anything you can
> think off to a dvd or cd. In this case users use only one app  - and
> get familiar with it from the start and don't have us use one in the
> beginning and then switch to using another when nautilus-burn outgrows
> their needs.
>
> If you are too strict on k3b being a qt app then use brasero instead -
> but use one at least.

We don't want users to need to use k3b, or brasero. They can choose to
install it afterwards (see the discussions about making installation of
new software better).

On thing I can think of for nautilus-cd-burner, is for the "CD/DVD
creator" file manager window to show up in non-spatial mode, with a tree
on the side, so it's easier to see the whole CD mastering tree.

I filed this as:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=439388
and it would need changes to nautilus, gnome-volume-manager and
gnome-panel.