RE: Goodbye, Fedora (Limiting -devel to maintainers/contributers/etc?)

[Gilboa Davara]

On Wed, 2007-02-21 at 09:27 -0500, Tony Downey wrote:
>  >
>  > Time to make fedora-devel developers/maintainers/etc only?
>  >
>  
>  Wouldn't that just prove the "trolls'" assertions?  
>  
>  I've been a RH/Fedora user since 1996.  I'd LOVE to contribute to Fedora.  I
>  don't have the amount of free time, though, that I believe is necessary to
>  constitute an honest effort.  
>  
>  Having said that, I remain subscribed to the devel list in order to stay
>  informed and learn.
>  
>  Restricting access to the mailing list would, IMO, just paint a picture of
>  Fedora developers as elitists -- and I don't think that's what you're hoping
>  to achieve.
>  
>  
>  TD
>   
Unless I'm mistaken, the original idea was that -devel members has to be
sponsored before given rw rights.
Being a fedora developer and/or an active -extras maintainer will just
speed things up.

I'm not saying that -devel should be limited to RH/FC/Extras members
-only-, I am saying that something must be done to improve the
signal-to-noise ratio.

- Gilboa

Goodbye, Fedora (Limiting -devel to maintainers/contributers/etc?)

[Andy Green]

Gilboa Davara wrote:

> > Restricting access to the mailing list would, IMO, just paint a
> picture of
> > Fedora developers as elitists -- and I don't think that's what you're
> hoping
> > to achieve. 
>  I'm not saying that -devel should be limited to RH/FC/Extras
> members
>  -only-, I am saying that something must be done to improve the
>  signal-to-noise ratio. 
Is that really true about the ratio?  This ESR "from Hell's heart I stab 
at thee" stuff is going to stay in its own thread.  You can score the 
thread to nothing, but really since it does exist and involves Fedora 
maybe it should get read.

This "core/moderator only" and "I mustn't be recorded" stuff going
on is 
a pattern I have seen elsewhere.  I hope others have seen where it leads 
too and maybe have some caution about it :-(  A good idea is a good idea 
even if it came from the keyboard of a non-anointed person...

-Andy

Goodbye, Fedora (Limiting -devel to maintainers/contributers/etc?)

[Josh Boyer]

On Wed, 2007-02-21 at 15:06 +0000, Andy Green wrote:
>  Gilboa Davara wrote:
>  
>  >> Restricting access to the mailing list would, IMO, just paint a picture of
>  >> Fedora developers as elitists -- and I don't think that's what
> you're hoping
>  >> to achieve.
>  
>  > I'm not saying that -devel should be limited to RH/FC/Extras members
>  > -only-, I am saying that something must be done to improve the
>  > signal-to-noise ratio.
>  
>  Is that really true about the ratio?  This ESR "from Hell's heart I stab 
>  at thee" stuff is going to stay in its own thread.  You can score the 
>  thread to nothing, but really since it does exist and involves Fedora 
>  maybe it should get read.
>  
>  This "core/moderator only" and "I mustn't be recorded" stuff
> going on is 
>  a pattern I have seen elsewhere.  I hope others have seen where it leads 
>  too and maybe have some caution about it :-(  A good idea is a good idea 
>  even if it came from the keyboard of a non-anointed person... 
The trend is going the opposite way anyway.  Lists are opening up rather
than being private.  See the F-A-B list as an example.

josh

Goodbye, Fedora (Limiting -devel to maintainers/contributers/etc?)

[Andy Green]

Andy Green wrote:
>  Gilboa Davara wrote:
>  
> >> Restricting access to the mailing list would, IMO, just paint a 
> >> picture of
> >> Fedora developers as elitists -- and I don't think that's what you're
>
> >> hoping
> >> to achieve.
>  
> > I'm not saying that -devel should be limited to RH/FC/Extras members
> > -only-, I am saying that something must be done to improve the
> > signal-to-noise ratio.
>  
>  Is that really true about the ratio?  This ESR "from Hell's heart I stab 
>  at thee" stuff is going to stay in its own thread.  You can score the  
...and it's not like pulling the bedcovers over the head and bouncing 
everyone who is not "one of us, one of us" out is going to resolve the 
actual issue either:

http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/02/21/1340237

''ESR gives up on Fedora

Wednesday February 21, 2007 (01:33 PM GMT)

By: Eric S. Raymond

The following letter was received from ESR, who has sent it to a number 
of Linux-related publications and mailing lists. It is presented 
verbatim, except for the addition of HTML code.
...''

-Andy

Goodbye, Fedora (Limiting -devel to maintainers/contributers/etc?)

[Gilboa Davara]

On Wed, 2007-02-21 at 15:06 +0000, Andy Green wrote:
>  Gilboa Davara wrote:
>  
>  >> Restricting access to the mailing list would, IMO, just paint a picture of
>  >> Fedora developers as elitists -- and I don't think that's what
> you're hoping
>  >> to achieve.
>  
>  > I'm not saying that -devel should be limited to RH/FC/Extras members
>  > -only-, I am saying that something must be done to improve the
>  > signal-to-noise ratio.
>  
>  Is that really true about the ratio?  This ESR "from Hell's heart I stab 
>  at thee" stuff is going to stay in its own thread.  You can score the 
>  thread to nothing, but really since it does exist and involves Fedora 
>  maybe it should get read. 
>  This "core/moderator only" and "I mustn't be
> recorded" stuff going on is 
>  a pattern I have seen elsewhere.  I hope others have seen where it leads 
>  too and maybe have some caution about it :-(  A good idea is a good idea 
>  even if it came from the keyboard of a non-anointed person...
>   
I'm not saying that non-contributing user's voice should not be heard.
Far from it.
I am saying that fedora-devel should be dedicated to.... fedora
developers/maintainers.

- Gilboa

Goodbye, Fedora (Limiting -devel to maintainers/contributers/etc - A bad idea)

[Naoki]

You can't quantify "contributions" in any easy way. And it's going to
get pretty ugly if you start telling generally useful people they can't
be on the list simply because you don't want to reduce the OT posting.

We all understand the fedora-devel list is for developers, and
technically you can restrict write access to people with a certain level
of access. But at what cost? I test rawhide on various hardware, so I'm
not technically a fedora  developer, but I'd like to think that my
meager testing and occasional bug reports do more good than harm to
fedora. 

Restriction still will not solve your problem of somebody spamming a
personal gripe into the list, even developers aren't immune to that from
time to time so your cost benefit ratio isn't great, probably negative.

What we have here is one person spamming the list with a personal gripe.
No amount of policing the list can ever stop this from happening. The
problem here was only caused by those of us (myself most definitely
included) who responded to an off topic posting.

Besides, an open devel process, even with a few warts, is better than a
closed elitist one.

Goodbye, Fedora (Limiting -devel to maintainers/contributers/etc?)

[Warren Togami]

Gilboa Davara wrote:
>  
>  Unless I'm mistaken, the original idea was that -devel members has to be
>  sponsored before given rw rights.
>  Being a fedora developer and/or an active -extras maintainer will just
>  speed things up. 
No.  fedora-devel-list was originally meant to be developer discussion 
only.  End-user support does not belong here at all.  Unfortunately, 
this list has been increasingly failing us for a few reasons:

- "developer discussion" is a gray area
- policing is a manual process of constant vigilance.  Effort today 
leaves no lasting effects in a few days.

What if more list members helped in the policing, making it an actively 
hostile place for end-users to post support questions?  I dunno...

>  
>  I'm not saying that -devel should be limited to RH/FC/Extras members
>  -only-, I am saying that something must be done to improve the
>  signal-to-noise ratio.
>   
fedora-maintainers was created as an invite only list for this purpose. 
  The signal to noise ratio is a bit better there.  I am personally fine 
with inviting anybody with cvsextras access, or who has done something 
substantive in infrastructure or docs to that list.

Warren Togami
wtogami(a)redhat.com

Goodbye, Fedora (Limiting -devel to maintainers/contributers/etc?)

[Randy Wyatt]

>  Gilboa Davara wrote:
>  >
>  > Unless I'm mistaken, the original idea was that -devel members has to be
>  > sponsored before given rw rights.
>  > Being a fedora developer and/or an active -extras maintainer will just
>  > speed things up.
>
>  No.  fedora-devel-list was originally meant to be developer discussion
>  only.  End-user support does not belong here at all.  Unfortunately,
>  this list has been increasingly failing us for a few reasons:
>
>  - "developer discussion" is a gray area
>  - policing is a manual process of constant vigilance.  Effort today
>  leaves no lasting effects in a few days.
>
>  What if more list members helped in the policing, making it an actively
>  hostile place for end-users to post support questions?  I dunno... 


Making any list actively hostile to end-users is a quick way to lose
end-users. This is one of the reasons I no longer use openSuSE.

Goodbye, Fedora (Limiting -devel to maintainers/contributers/etc?)

[Gilboa Davara]

On Wed, 2007-02-21 at 07:22 -0800, Randy Wyatt wrote:
>  
>          Gilboa Davara wrote:
>          >
>          > Unless I'm mistaken, the original idea was that -devel
>          members has to be 
>          > sponsored before given rw rights.
>          > Being a fedora developer and/or an active -extras maintainer
>          will just
>          > speed things up.
>          
>          No.  fedora-devel-list was originally meant to be developer
>          discussion 
>          only.  End-user support does not belong here at
>          all.  Unfortunately,
>          this list has been increasingly failing us for a few reasons:
>          
>          - "developer discussion" is a gray area
>          - policing is a manual process of constant vigilance.  Effort
>          today 
>          leaves no lasting effects in a few days.
>          
>          What if more list members helped in the policing, making it an
>          actively
>          hostile place for end-users to post support questions?  I
>          dunno...
>  
>  
>  Making any list actively hostile to end-users is a quick way to lose
>  end-users. This is one of the reasons I no longer use openSuSE. 
>   
... but should end-users (with support questions) post in -devel?

- Gilboa

Goodbye, Fedora (Limiting -devel to maintainers/contributers/etc?)

[Warren Togami]

Randy Wyatt wrote:
>  
>  Making any list actively hostile to end-users is a quick way to lose 
>  end-users. This is one of the reasons I no longer use openSuSE.
>   
There are far better places to get end-user support, like 
fedoraforum.org or Bugzilla.

It is simply off-topic to ask for end-user support on this list.  It 
HURTS the project to increase the noise on this list, because it 
discourages useful people (developers) from reading the list on a 
regular basis.

Warren Togami
wtogami(a)redhat.com

Goodbye, Fedora (Limiting -devel to maintainers/contributers/etc?)

[Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail]

On 2/21/07, Warren Togami <wtogami(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  Randy Wyatt wrote: 
>  There are far better places to get end-user support, like
>  fedoraforum.org or Bugzilla.
>
>  It is simply off-topic to ask for end-user support on this list.  It
>  HURTS the project to increase the noise on this list, because it
>  discourages useful people (developers) from reading the list on a
>  regular basis.
>  
I'm new here btw .. How about questions that related to codes or how
something works internally - eg: how pilgrim does it job on making a
liveCD rw (I know this question dont belong here but on
fedora-livecd-list .. its juz an example ) .. for the reason of doing
something that involve development / student research ?? .. Its not
quite end user and not quite developer .. but something in the middle
.. more technical than end user , but less than an actual development
..

not to forget young/newbie developers who still learning on how to
help in oss development

is here is the right place to refer or theres somewhere else for that?

>  Warren Togami
>  wtogami(a)redhat.com
>
>  --
>  fedora-devel-list mailing list
>  fedora-devel-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>  

-- 
-----------------------------------------------
regards
Hikaru
-----------------------------------------------
Mohd Izhar Firdaus Bin Ismail
Amano Hikaru
天野晃 「あまの ひかる」
Universiti Teknologi PETRONAS
ICT 2nd Year 1st Semester
mohd.izhar.firdaus(a)gmail.com
-----------------------------------------------
kagesenshi.87(a)gmail.com
Blog: http://kagesenshi.blogspot.com
-----------------------------------------------

Goodbye, Fedora (Limiting -devel to maintainers/contributers/etc?)

[Karsten Hopp]

Warren Togami schrieb:
>  Randy Wyatt wrote:
> >
> > Making any list actively hostile to end-users is a quick way to lose 
> > end-users. This is one of the reasons I no longer use openSuSE.
> >
>  
>  There are far better places to get end-user support, like 
>  fedoraforum.org or Bugzilla.
>   
Bugzilla is NOT a place to get support, please go back and read the main page again:
'Bugzilla is not an avenue for technical assistance or support, but simply a bug
tracking system.'


I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't encourage our users to clog bugzilla with
support requests.

   Thanks

    Karsten

Goodbye, Fedora (Limiting -devel to maintainers/contributers/etc?)

[Gilboa Davara]

On Wed, 2007-02-21 at 10:15 -0500, Warren Togami wrote:
>  Gilboa Davara wrote:
>  > 
>  > Unless I'm mistaken, the original idea was that -devel members has to be
>  > sponsored before given rw rights.
>  > Being a fedora developer and/or an active -extras maintainer will just
>  > speed things up.
>  
>  No.  fedora-devel-list was originally meant to be developer discussion 
>  only.  End-user support does not belong here at all.  Unfortunately, 
>  this list has been increasingly failing us for a few reasons:
>  
>  - "developer discussion" is a gray area
>  - policing is a manual process of constant vigilance.  Effort today 
>  leaves no lasting effects in a few days. 
Ouch. Bad phrasing on my side.
I meant: A couple of of months ago it was suggest that the -devel ML
will become semi-closed - pushing the public debates into a newly formed
ML.

>  
>  What if more list members helped in the policing, making it an actively 
>  hostile place for end-users to post support questions?  I dunno... 
Personally, I can live with support questions.
However, politics, flame-wars and the occasional troll makes my skin
crawl.

>  
>  > 
>  > I'm not saying that -devel should be limited to RH/FC/Extras members
>  > -only-, I am saying that something must be done to improve the
>  > signal-to-noise ratio.
>  > 
>  
>  fedora-maintainers was created as an invite only list for this purpose. 
>    The signal to noise ratio is a bit better there.  I am personally fine 
>  with inviting anybody with cvsextras access, or who has done something 
>  substantive in infrastructure or docs to that list. 
/+1
I'm suggesting that -devel should mirror this behavior.
(AFAIK maintainers is for packaging/cvs/extras/etc questions/problems -
IMHO a similar ML should be created for development/long-term
discussions)

>  
>  Warren Togami
>  wtogami(a)redhat.com 
- Gilboa