On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 10:13 PM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 3:07 PM Kevin Fenzi <kevin(a)scrye.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 04, 2021 at 01:03:27PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > Hi all! I just got back from Open Source Summit, several of the talks I
> > found interesting were on RISC-V -- a high-level one about the
> > organizational structure, and Drew Fustini's more technical talk.
> > In that, he noted that there's a Fedora build *, but it isn't an
> > Fedora arch. As I understand it, the major infrastructure blocker is simply
> > that there isn't server-class hardware (let alone hardware that will build
> > fast enough that it isn't a frustrating bottleneck).
> We have avoided using emulation in the past because we would be chasing
> bugs in our emulation that aren't in real hardware and vice versa.
> How good is the emulation support? Do we know/have people who can fix
> things in it when we hit them? Tools folks: is emulation an option here?
> Or do we still forbid it?
> > So, one question is: if we used, say, ARM or x86_64 Amazon cloud instances
> > as builders, could we build fast enough under QEMU emulation to work? We
> > have a nice early advantage, but if we don't keep moving, we'll lose
> > But beyond that: What other things might be limits? Are there key bits of
> > the distro which don't build yet? Is there a big enough risc-v team to
> > respond to arch-specific build failures? And, do we have enough people to do
> > QA around release time?
> Well, one big thing is that it's been a while since we had any secondary
> arches and it's unclear how they would work today. In the distant past
> secondary arches had their own koji and builders and composes and
> releases and used koji-shadow to try and match up with primary koji.
> This was basically more than a full time job for someone and I am sure
> koji-shadow has atrophied in recent years, but perhaps at least some
> subset could be made to work again.
> On the other hand we could just add it into primary koji, but then it
> really really has to keep up or it's going to block everything else.
> So, probibly a 'secondary' koji and builders to start with to bootstrap
> and to gather info on how hard it is to keep up and good emulation is
> would be worthwhile, but it's gonna need some dedicated work.
> Perhaps we could get a up to date status report from folks working on
> this, answering such questions as:
> * How good is emulation support
The lack of real hardware for RISC-V has made it so almost everyone is
working with emulation. It's not realistic right now to work with real
> * What would it take to keep up with the other arches? Is that possible?
Right now we run 170 QEMUs and a few boards. Most QEMU VMs run with 4
cores, but some are configured with 8 cores + 32GB of RAM.
The number of boards (physical machines) will increase.
With the QEMU setup we could deliver thousands of builds per week.
Of course we cannot fully keep up. For example OpenJDK doesn't have a
JIT which can be used in some packages (building or running tests).
In general we have been running Fedora GNOME Wayland Desktop setup
with RISC-V SoC (SiFive) + AMD GPUs for years now. I can even play a
4K movie (thanks to the GPU acceleration).
The real hardware options do not have the performance to keep up with
the other architectures.
> * What device(s) would we want to target and could we get sufficent
> numbers of them for QA and devel folks to debug problems and test?
This is probably more of a question for Fedora RISC-V folks like
Richard W.M. Jones...
The only device capable of PC-like setup is SiFive Unmatched today.
That's the only board you could buy.
There are cheaper boards based on Allwinner D1, but that cheap is a
complicated story. They used some reversed bits in PTE and RVV is
0.7.1, which is not compatible with what will be ratified. Technically
the chip can run in "compatible" mode, but that would kill peripherals
The current RISC-V Platforms and Profiles specifications are also not
finished thus there aren't any devices that would have the official
stamps of some compatibility level. If everything goes well these
things will be finalized / ratified sooner than later.
> * Are there folks who can bootstrap/shepard the koji shadowing process?
We already have the other Koji instance that could be converted into a
shadow Koji, couldn't it?
I currently avoided "koji shadow" and used my silly scripts (which
works as long as you learn all Fedora packages and how things work
with some packages/ecosystems).
> 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
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