On 23 January 2014 14:14, Josh Boyer <jwboyer@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Stephen John Smoogen <smooge@gmail.com> wrote:

> My view of the matter was pretty much the same as Tom's and I was at FLOCK.
> The language at the sessions I attended was not one of "We would like to do
> this" but that it was a done thing. I realize a lot of that is the 'get shit
> done because we are all together' mentality which comes from conferences but
> by the time I left FLOCK I was pretty sure this was all done and either get
> in the boat or get out. I wasn't even aware of the FESCO items until this
> email as I figured it had been done and decided at FLOCK.

If one is advocating for something they strongly believe in, they
definitely are not going to say "I think maybe we should do this kinda
but it might be a crazy idea."  They advocate by saying "I am going to
do this and I am going to drive it forward until I am told no."  That
doesn't mean they can just skip all the processes and steps required
to get their idea approved.

I would be a lot happier if people actually did have some humility and at least went with 'this might be a crazy idea but I am doing the following and I would like people to try it out' and actually listening to the people who did try it out. Instead we have a lot of 'I have written X and it is what we will be using in the next release'. and then wonder why the hell we cut our install and contributor base after that next release.

Boostrapping is hard.  I didn't come up with the idea and this might
not have been the best way to do it, but hindsight is 20/20.  I do
hope that if you are interested in a WG/Product that you do
participate because the governance for them is set up and will allow
different WG members going forward.  I've also seen lots of non-member
participation be really fruitful already.

I do not doubt that non-member participation has been fruitful. At this point of the proceedings most of my time is spent hitting the 'd' key because my responses would not be fruitful and in a couple of cases, career limiting. You people don't need any more of that negativity, you already have enough. Once people get to the the technical side of how to accomplish possibly 4 times the work with RPMS and alternate packages on the same or less hardware and disk space.. then it becomes an interesting problem to me where I can contribute.

Stephen J Smoogen.