On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 5:33 PM Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
In short... both of these projects have the same policy I'm
I get the idea that it's useful to draw a distinction between the
project and the product, and agree with the goal. The upstream naming
preference wasn't really my point in those examples, though. My
examples were an attempt to show that the short name (colloquial name,
even if not the "official" name) often refers to the product, and the
community name is the longer of the two (often with the community
being named after the product, not the other way around). I was also
attempting to emphasize that there's already a distinction made
between Fedora and the Fedora Project that people are already using
that seems to be sufficient, in the same way that those other
projects/communities have a distinction.
it really does allow those organizations to have more clear
Clarity can be achieved by context, the use of improper nouns, and
clear writing style (descriptive thinking). I think people put too
much emphasis in names to communicate meaning (nominative thinking).
Adding "Linux" doesn't really give any clarity, since it's implied
already... and... you can already append it to descriptively add
clarity without changing the name.
> system/software stack. Nobody is ever confused when I say
> refer to the operating system... but if I use it to refer to the
> Fedora project as a whole, people always get confused because they
> think I mean the operating system.
Yes, and that latter confusion is definitely a problem. It means that
activities that we, the Fedora Project engage in that are not just that
operating system always get treated as weird side cases. But we've been
doing those other things for decades, too.
The confusion to which I was referring is typically resolved by using
"Fedora Project" to refer to the project as a whole, or if that's
still unclear, by appending the improper noun "community", as in "the
Fedora Project community" or "the Fedora community". This is no
different than resolving confusion about "Apache" by saying "The
Apache Software Foundation" or "the Apache community".
For me, the bigger problem is that "Fedora Project" too often gets
interpreted as "Fedora project", and people don't know enough about
the world of Fedora to know that "Project" is the name of the overall
effort, rather than a synonym for the Fedora "product". If anything,
this isn't a problem of "Fedora" being a bad/incomplete name for the
software product, but "Fedora Project" being a bad name for the
overall effort. Choosing a better name for the overall effort would
probably yield more clarity of the type you are seeking than changing
the name of the operating system. Perhaps "Fedora Community Effort /
Endeavor" ("FCE") or "Fedora Community Project" (FCP).
I don't agree that the potential confusion means the overall effort is
being "treated as weird side cases". It just means that people engage
with "Fedora" the operating system product more frequently than the
"Fedora Project". This is natural, expected, and not necessarily a
problem to correct.
> If I said "Fedora Linux", I think people would just
think I'm being
> redundant, because "Fedora" implies the Linux kernel (in addition to the
> other OS components it ships with).
I don't see people being confused in this way by, say, "Arch Linux" or
"Linux Mint". I agree that it's a little weird at first, but as Ben Cotton
said, after the first hundred times or so it becomes natural.
Did those distros previously have a name of "Arch" or "Mint" alone,
and then add "Linux" to the name later? If not, then I don't
understand your point.
"Fedora" is what the operating system is currently known as. Yes, I'm
sure we could all get used to being more specific by saying "Fedora
Linux"... but to me, I don't understand why it would be necessary. You
can already say "Fedora Linux" (descriptive thinking) as shorthand for
"The Linux-based operating system named 'Fedora' " or "The Linux
distribution named 'Fedora' ", without actually changing the name to
formally have "Linux" as part of the name itself (nominative
To summarize, it seems we already have distinguishing names, and you
wish to change one of them:
1. Fedora -> Fedora Linux
2. Fedora Project
I don't think this accomplishes much, but if a name changer were
warranted, I would prefer:
2. Fedora Project -> Fedora Community Project / Effort / Endeavor
Or, if the OS really needed to have a name change, how about:
1. Fedora -> Fedora Core ;-)
2. Fedora Project
It doesn't matter to me much. I have expressed my opinion, but am
happy to go with the flow. :)