9:34 p.m.
OK, let's all collect the list.
These have already come up:
- kdebase-runtime (currently in a -flags subpackage, used at least 1. by the
keyboard layout switcher to represent a keyboard layout and 2. when
selecting the locale in System Settings to represent a country)
- deluge (currently getting ripped out because that was requested in a bug)
- gcompris
- freeciv
- xfce4-xkb-plugin
- ktorrent (same use as deluge, for geolocation of peers)
Icon themes, containing at least one flag (UN or other) to represent the
locale preferences (and I didn't check if there are other icons containing
flags):
- gnome-icon-theme (UN)
- bluecurve-icon-theme (3 countries, overlayed into a single icon)
- oxygen-icon-theme (UN)
- crystalsvg-icon-theme (2 countries, overlayed into a single icon)
Other KDE packages (yes, KDE ships multiple copies of flags, in slightly
different formats (PNG vs. SVG, sizes)):
- kdeedu (kgeography, that's the "geography learning app" I alluded to, the
flags are part of the information about countries it shows)
- kdeedu-marble (flags are shown in the properties for a place)
- kdegames (ksirk) (similar to FreeCiv in principle: the flags are used to
represent players, who choose a given nation; note that this game is
extra "fun" for the "politically correct" folks because it contains a
map
of Earth with territories not quite matching actual country borders, see
the screenshot at
http://www.kde-apps.org/content/preview.php?preview=1&id=21450&fi...
to get an idea)
- kde-plasma-translatoid (currently getting ripped out because the flags
were noticed and frowned upon during review, uses flags for languages)
That's 14 packages, and I'm sure there are more (if you know of any others,
feel free to reply).
Kevin Kofler
9:41 p.m.
Oh, and while not technically flags, freecol includes historical stems
(decorated shields) of 4 European countries.
Kevin Kofler
9:48 p.m.
Am Samstag, den 23.05.2009, 04:34 +0200 schrieb Kevin Kofler:
OK, let's all collect the list.
[..]
That's 14 packages, and I'm sure there are more (if you know of any others,
feel free to reply).
Openttd, currently under review:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491518
Christoph
10:32 p.m.
On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at> wrote:
OK, let's all collect the list.
These have already come up:
- kdebase-runtime (currently in a -flags subpackage, used at least 1. by the
keyboard layout switcher to represent a keyboard layout
The patch removing the flags from that should be sent upstream too…
countries and languages/keymaps are not a bijection.
11:46 p.m.
Gregory Maxwell wrote:
The patch removing the flags from [kdebase-runtime] should be sent
upstream too…
It's not a patch, it's putting the flags into a subpackage (or before,
running rm) so they are just not there. It's completely the wrong fix,
entirely not upstreamable. It removes the common copy of flags which means
they're also missing where they make more sense, e.g. for the locale
selection (which is per country). Not to mention that I'm not convinced
there's a problem to be fixed there at all.
countries and languages/keymaps are not a bijection.
It's close enough. Many users expect country flags to be used in this place,
just use a search engine to find the many complaints in forums, bugzilla
etc. about those flags being missing in Fedora. (Also note that keymaps !=
languages, they're actually closer to being per country than per language.)
And using flags there is already optional! We can easily tweak kde-settings
so the default is to show only the 2-letter code for the layout by default.
That doesn't require removing the flags altogether (which is highly
confusing for the user because checking the box to show them has no effect,
and it also means the flags are missing in other places).
So no, removing the flags entirely is not upstreamable, and will also be
rejected by upstream (they explicitly decided not to ban flags from KDE).
At most, changing the default for the keyboard layout chooser from showing
the flag (in addition to the name) to just showing the name may be
upstreamable, but even there you have to expect some resistance. No matter
how technically inaccurate they may be, users are asking for the flags in
the keyboard chooser!
Kevin Kofler
12:28 a.m.
On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 12:46 AM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at> wrote:
> countries and languages/keymaps are not a bijection.
It's close enough. Many users expect country flags to be used in this place,
just use a search engine to find the many complaints in forums, bugzilla
etc. about those flags being missing in Fedora. (Also note that keymaps !=
languages, they're actually closer to being per country than per language.)
They aren't really per-country either. To be most accurate I would say are
per-language with occasional national variants.
There are quite a few cases where the implication that a language belongs to a
particular country (or a country has a particular 'right' language) is highly
offensive. It's simply not right, and it's highly insensitive to the social
realities in some parts of the world.
It smacks of the sort of multi-cultural ignorance that Americans are
widely credited with…
[snip]
So no, removing the flags entirely is not upstreamable, and will also
be
rejected by upstream (they explicitly decided not to ban flags from KDE).
Have a citation for that? Specifically for a refusal to stop
conflating keymaps and languages with national flags?
(An complete cessation of flag use is a more general issue, and I
wouldn't be surprised to see KDE refuse to stop using flags to
identify countries… laws and politics be-damned)
[And yes, I follow now that this change itself isn't upstreamable; but
there is nothing wrong with getting upstream to fix that part that is
actually broken even if fedora has a need to go further]
12:26 p.m.
Gregory Maxwell wrote:
They aren't really per-country either. To be most accurate I
would say are
per-language with occasional national variants.
There are quite a few cases where the implication that a language belongs
to a particular country (or a country has a particular 'right' language)
is highly offensive. It's simply not right, and it's highly insensitive to
the social realities in some parts of the world.
Then those users can just turn the darn checkbox off. Users in many other
parts of the world are expecting and asking for those flags. See e.g. bug
reports like these:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=244578
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=236332
(and several more) or forum threads like this:
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=147863
It smacks of the sort of multi-cultural ignorance that Americans are
widely credited with…
Kinda ironic how you're accusing me of multi-cultural ignorance while at the
same time assuming I'm American. :-/
I'm a European (Italian citizen, born and resident in Austria, went to a
French school) who speaks 4 languages fluently (German, Italian, French,
English).
I know that countries and languages don't map 1:1 and that keyboard layouts
don't map 1:1 to either. But if you look at the list of keyboard layouts,
you'll see that 78 layouts out of 83 (checked on Fedora 9) are named after
a country. I don't see how it would be inappropriate to match those up with
a flag. If that's inappropriate, then the name needs fixing too! But then
it's kinda hard to find a proper name and especially a proper 2-letter code
to show in the switcher (so I don't see how 2-letter codes are any better
than flags). (How do you fit "Germany and Austria" into 2 letters?
"da"
won't cut it, that's already Denmark. Even 3 letters are insufficient for
some layouts used in multiple countries. And you can't fit more into a
systray icon.) The remaining 5 layouts (Arabic, Braille, Esperanto, Latin
America and Maori) are shown without a country flag, using just a 3-letter
abbreviation (Maori could probably use a New Zealand flag, but it currently
doesn't). I don't see how that interface is inappropriate.
As for the multi-language countries which have been cited, both Switzerland
and India have A SINGLE keyboard layout in that list (which is generated
from xkb data)! Switzerland has variants for German and French (not sure
which one the Italian speakers use) which you select AFTER you selected the
main layout in the list (and the dialog allows you to pick 2 variants and
to rename them, so if you want to switch between Swiss German and Swiss
French layouts, you can make them show up as de and fr or something of your
choice in the switcher). India has a default + 15 variants (and there too
you can pick multiple ones and rename them). So if you think selecting
layouts per country and considering the language variants variants of the
same layout is broken, complain to the xkb folks, not to KDE!
Have a citation for that? Specifically for a refusal to stop
conflating keymaps and languages with national flags?
See e.g.: http://marc.info/?l=kde-core-devel&m=108491020719046&w=2 (and the
whole thread).
Kevin Kofler
12:21 a.m.
於 六，2009-05-23 於 19:26 +0200，Kevin Kofler 提到：
I know that countries and languages don't map 1:1 and that
keyboard layouts
don't map 1:1 to either. But if you look at the list of keyboard layouts,
you'll see that 78 layouts out of 83 (checked on Fedora 9) are named after
a country. I don't see how it would be inappropriate to match those up with
a flag. If that's inappropriate, then the name needs fixing too!
Unless there is a plan to complete the flags/icons for 83-78=5 layouts,
it does not look consistent, does it?
But then
it's kinda hard to find a proper name and especially a proper 2-letter code
to show in the switcher (so I don't see how 2-letter codes are any better
than flags). (How do you fit "Germany and Austria" into 2 letters?
"da"
won't cut it, that's already Denmark. Even 3 letters are insufficient for
some layouts used in multiple countries. And you can't fit more into a
systray icon.) The remaining 5 layouts (Arabic, Braille, Esperanto, Latin
America and Maori) are shown without a country flag, using just a 3-letter
abbreviation (Maori could probably use a New Zealand flag, but it currently
doesn't). I don't see how that interface is inappropriate.
Technically, up to 6 alphabets can be actually squeeze in the systray
icon. I already explained in my previous posts. See icon for SCIM of
concrete example.
As for the multi-language countries which have been cited, both
Switzerland
and India have A SINGLE keyboard layout in that list (which is generated
from xkb data)!
I think there are some Dvorak keyboards in China and India, but Dvorak
is not listed in either of them.
Switzerland has variants for German and French (not sure
which one the Italian speakers use) which you select AFTER you selected the
main layout in the list (and the dialog allows you to pick 2 variants and
to rename them, so if you want to switch between Swiss German and Swiss
French layouts, you can make them show up as de and fr or something of your
choice in the switcher). India has a default + 15 variants (and there too
you can pick multiple ones and rename them). So if you think selecting
layouts per country and considering the language variants variants of the
same layout is broken, complain to the xkb folks, not to KDE!
It might be too late for xkb, but KDE/GNOME key layout selector on the
other hand, can provide alternative UI to achieve the same effect.
It is good that KDE can customize the layout label.However
as a input method developer, I am more willing to see the key layouts
which are categorized by ... layout themselves. Such as
QWERTY-- Default
+-ja_JP
+-ko_KR,
+-de_CH
+-fr_CH
+-it_CH
+-en_UK
+...
DVORAK--
QWERTZ--
+-de_CH
+-de_CH@SunDeadKey
+-de_CH@NOSunDeadKey
+-de_CH@Mac
+-fr_CH
+-it_CH
+...
AZERTY--fr_FR
+-fr_BE
....
The benefits of this category systems are:
1. Input method developers only need to deal with the keys that matter
(i.e. 0-9 and a-z) instead of go through the whole country list.
2. End users need fewer scroll for the first level category.
3. Reduce the redundancy: Many countries use essentially the standard
QWERTY layout, no need to show all of them.
4. Flags can be assigned to the second level, either from the listing
locale string or the regional setting. So Aussies, Kiwi, Singaporean can
use their own flags (instead of American flags), everybody is happy. :-)
--
Ding-Yi Chen
Software Engineer
Internationalization Group
Red Hat, Inc.
Looking to carve out IT costs?
www.apac.redhat.com/promo/carveoutcosts/
1:54 a.m.
Ding-Yi Chen wrote:
Unless there is a plan to complete the flags/icons for 83-78=5
layouts,
it does not look consistent, does it?
Those 5 layouts do not match a country, so it makes sense not to show any
flags for them. This is neither a real issue, nor an argument for removing
the remaining 78 flags.
It might be too late for xkb, but KDE/GNOME key layout selector on
the
other hand, can provide alternative UI to achieve the same effect.
It is good that KDE can customize the layout label.However
as a input method developer, I am more willing to see the key layouts
which are categorized by ... layout themselves. Such as
QWERTY-- Default
+-ja_JP
+-ko_KR,
+-de_CH
+-fr_CH
+-it_CH
+-en_UK
+...
DVORAK--
QWERTZ--
+-de_CH
+-de_CH@SunDeadKey
+-de_CH@NOSunDeadKey
+-de_CH@Mac
+-fr_CH
+-it_CH
+...
AZERTY--fr_FR
+-fr_BE
....
The benefits of this category systems are:
1. Input method developers only need to deal with the keys that matter
(i.e. 0-9 and a-z) instead of go through the whole country list.
2. End users need fewer scroll for the first level category.
3. Reduce the redundancy: Many countries use essentially the standard
QWERTY layout, no need to show all of them.
4. Flags can be assigned to the second level, either from the listing
locale string or the regional setting. So Aussies, Kiwi, Singaporean can
use their own flags (instead of American flags), everybody is happy. :-)
Please propose these UI improvements to KDE upstream. They have nothing to
do with Fedora's policy on flags in any case. (You write yourself that
flags would still be useful, or even more useful, under that scheme.)
Kevin Kofler
9:27 p.m.
於 一，2009-05-25 於 08:54 +0200，Kevin Kofler 提到：
Ding-Yi Chen wrote:
> Unless there is a plan to complete the flags/icons for 83-78=5 layouts,
> it does not look consistent, does it?
Those 5 layouts do not match a country, so it makes sense not to show any
flags for them. This is neither a real issue, nor an argument for removing
the remaining 78 flags.
I prefer the consistence way. :-)
> QWERTY-- Default
> +-ja_JP
> +-ko_KR,
> +-de_CH
> +-fr_CH
> +-it_CH
> +-en_UK
> +...
> DVORAK--
> QWERTZ--
> +-de_CH
> +-de_CH@SunDeadKey
> +-de_CH@NOSunDeadKey
> +-de_CH@Mac
> +-fr_CH
> +-it_CH
> +...
> AZERTY--fr_FR
> +-fr_BE
> ....
>
> The benefits of this category systems are:
> 1. Input method developers only need to deal with the keys that matter
> (i.e. 0-9 and a-z) instead of go through the whole country list.
> 2. End users need fewer scroll for the first level category.
> 3. Reduce the redundancy: Many countries use essentially the standard
> QWERTY layout, no need to show all of them.
> 4. Flags can be assigned to the second level, either from the listing
> locale string or the regional setting. So Aussies, Kiwi, Singaporean can
> use their own flags (instead of American flags), everybody is happy. :-)
Please propose these UI improvements to KDE upstream. They have nothing to
do with Fedora's policy on flags in any case. (You write yourself that
flags would still be useful, or even more useful, under that scheme.)
Kevin Kofler
I will bring up the key layout issue in i18n meeting first.
Well, I myself did not against the flags, just want them to be
informative and nobody should feel being left out.
By the way, the keyboard icons should be customizable,
so they can be flags, part of keyboards, pretty flowers
or left blank for space/performance/political concerns.
--
Ding-Yi Chen
Software Engineer
Internationalization Group
Red Hat, Inc.
Looking to carve out IT costs?
www.apac.redhat.com/promo/carveoutcosts/
10:39 p.m.
On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at> wrote:
- freeciv
Oh, come on. Freeciv lists flags of countries that have actually
existed but don't any more (Babylonians, Persians), never existed but
might some day (Antarctica, Quebec), and never existed and never will
(Martians). Removing the flags from the game will make the game
pointless and unplayable.
Come on, we can do better than police games. They are *supposed* to be
fictitious! I can play for Soviets and invade the US, how's that for
historical or political correctness? :)
Regards,
--
Konstantin Ryabitsev
Montréal, Québec
11:42 p.m.
Konstantin Ryabitsev wrote:
Oh, come on. Freeciv lists flags of countries that have actually
existed but don't any more (Babylonians, Persians), never existed but
might some day (Antarctica, Quebec), and never existed and never will
(Martians). Removing the flags from the game will make the game
pointless and unplayable.
Come on, we can do better than police games.
That's kinda (part of) my point. I'm not the one who wants to burn all
flags, quite the opposite (I find even this subpackage idea to be too
restrictive and completely pointless).
Kevin Kofler
11:33 p.m.
On 05/22/2009 07:34 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
OK, let's all collect the list.
These have already come up:
- kdebase-runtime (currently in a -flags subpackage, used at least 1. by the
keyboard layout switcher to represent a keyboard layout and 2. when
selecting the locale in System Settings to represent a country)
- deluge (currently getting ripped out because that was requested in a bug)
- gcompris
- freeciv
- xfce4-xkb-plugin
- ktorrent (same use as deluge, for geolocation of peers)
netpanzer (marks units as belonging to a player but no historical
significance)
Probably a better way to do this is to get a list of all the files in
the distribution and look through that for image files that could be flags.
-Toshio
12:02 a.m.
Christoph Wickert wrote:
Openttd, currently under review:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491518
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
netpanzer (marks units as belonging to a player but no historical
significance)
With those 2, we're now at 16 packages including flags and 1 including
historical stems/shields.
This already exceeds the "4 or 5 packages" estimate by a factor of 3 to 4.
And no systematic search was even done. Censoring flags means censoring a
lot of packages and breaking some of them entirely. It is not a trivial
issue at all.
Note that I have yet to see an icon for preferences-desktop-locale which
doesn't use one or more flags. Echo uses a "generic" all-blue flag, but
this is fairly close to some real flags (e.g. the UN flag is blue with some
logo on it, the Somali flag is blue with a white star on it, the city of
Nitra in Slovakia uses a solid blue flag with a swallowtail form
(flagid.org found that one for me)) and there are also plenty of possible
political etc. interpretations for a solid blue flag. I don't think
a "generic" flag is any less of a problem there than a UN flag.
Kevin Kofler
12:28 p.m.
Remi Collet wrote:
ocsinventory use flags for locale selection.
Patch is ready, I'm just waiting for upstream feedback.
IMHO you shouldn't patch it. The policy has been suspended for now, we need
to get it thrown out entirely. If upstream uses flags, we should ship them.
Kevin Kofler
1:47 a.m.
Le 23/05/2009 04:34, Kevin Kofler a écrit :
[...]
- gcompris
[...]
For this one, flags are used to select current language (at least, I do
not know all the proposed games, I'll have to ask upstream if flags
are/will be used elsewhere).
gcompris is an educationnal software, for 2 years old and more children.
Flags usage to select language is not exactly part of the educational
side the soft, but it's also part of it (think that a two years old
child may "prefer" choosing his language according to the flag, not to
the text).
Considering this, I'm not sure simply removing flags for gcompris is the
thing to do.
Any thoughts ?
At last, my question is quite simple : what should I do ? Remove flags,
put them into a subpackage, or let them as it ?
Regards,
Johan
4:51 a.m.
On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 08:47:03AM +0200, Johan Cwiklinski wrote:
Le 23/05/2009 04:34, Kevin Kofler a écrit :
> [...]
> - gcompris
> [...]
>
At last, my question is quite simple : what should I do ? Remove flags,
put them into a subpackage, or let them as it ?
For now you shouldn't need to do anything. Yesterday's FESCO meeting
suspended the flags policy pending the collection of more data, and a
review. It might be useful to consider what effect stipping the flags
would have on the package, and posting that somewhere for FESCO's
consideration. Possibly there should be a tracker ticket to collect this
sort of data on?
Ewan
11:41 a.m.
Johan Cwiklinski wrote:
gcompris is an educationnal software, for 2 years old and more
children.
Flags usage to select language is not exactly part of the educational
side the soft, but it's also part of it (think that a two years old
child may "prefer" choosing his language according to the flag, not to
the text).
I think a two-year-old is more likely to click through the list to look at the
pretty pictures until bored, and then all the texts in the program are in
some random illegible language.
Björn Persson
10:07 a.m.
On 05/23/2009 09:41 AM, Björn Persson wrote:
Johan Cwiklinski wrote:
> gcompris is an educationnal software, for 2 years old and more children.
>
> Flags usage to select language is not exactly part of the educational
> side the soft, but it's also part of it (think that a two years old
> child may "prefer" choosing his language according to the flag, not to
> the text).
I think a two-year-old is more likely to click through the list to look at the
pretty pictures until bored, and then all the texts in the program are in
some random illegible language.
A two year old (through kindergartener or first grader) is certainly
capable of choosing a symbol that they've been taught to use from a
table of other symbols. The real question is whether there's a time in
a child's development when they can pick out an image that gets them
into a program but can't pick out a two letter abbreviation to do the same.
BTW, gcompris, has audio in various languages for children to learn
from. So it's not just text that's being translated by the language
selection.
-Toshio
6:01 p.m.
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
A two year old (through kindergartener or first grader) is certainly
capable of choosing a symbol that they've been taught to use from a
table of other symbols. The real question is whether there's a time in
a child's development when they can pick out an image that gets them
into a program but can't pick out a two letter abbreviation to do the same.
It's not really about getting into the program but rather configuring the
program. Gcompris uses the locale from the environment by default, like all
well-behaved programs do, but you can go to the configuration screen and
choose another locale if you want to. Then you need to exit Gcompris and
start it again before the change takes effect on the whole program, so I
doubt that the intention is that children should choose their locale every
time they start Gcompris.
I haven't quite figured out why the developers felt a need to have a separate
locale setting just for Gcompris, but in those cases where it's needed I
think a parent or teacher will configure the program and then tell the
children not to touch the settings.
BTW, gcompris, has audio in various languages for children to learn
from. So it's not just text that's being translated by the language
selection.
In that case I would suggest a recorded voice that says "Should I speak
English?" and the equivalent in each language – if the intention really is
that children who can't read should be able to choose their language.
Björn Persson
3:32 a.m.
2009/5/25 Björn Persson :
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> A two year old (through kindergartener or first grader) is certainly
> capable of choosing a symbol that they've been taught to use from a
> table of other symbols. The real question is whether there's a time in
> a child's development when they can pick out an image that gets them
> into a program but can't pick out a two letter abbreviation to do the same.
It's not really about getting into the program but rather configuring the
program. Gcompris uses the locale from the environment by default, like all
well-behaved programs do, but you can go to the configuration screen and
choose another locale if you want to. Then you need to exit Gcompris and
start it again before the change takes effect on the whole program, so I
doubt that the intention is that children should choose their locale every
time they start Gcompris.
I haven't quite figured out why the developers felt a need to have a separate
locale setting just for Gcompris, but in those cases where it's needed I
think a parent or teacher will configure the program and then tell the
children not to touch the settings.
Remember this is a learning software.
You can have your system configured for french and let your child both
play sometimes in french and otherwise learn english with GCompris.
----------
Mathieu Bridon (bochecha)
12:04 p.m.
Johan Cwiklinski (mailings(a)x-tnd.be) said:
Considering this, I'm not sure simply removing flags for gcompris
is the
thing to do.
Any thoughts ?
It's the right thing from a UI standpoint. That dialog is horrible.
Here's an example, when started in es_MX.UTF-8:
http://notting.fedorapeople.org/gcompris.png
1) I started it in the locale of the largest Spanish-speaking population
on the globe. So I get a (broken) flag image for an entirely different
country?
2) Say I'm a child who can't read the language but is supposed to pick
the language via flag. Not only is it not using a flag that I'd recognize
in my locale, how am I even supposed to know that it's a language
configuration area? There's no other information other than a name of the
language (or 'your system default', which also isn't going to make
a lot of sense to most kids)
3) There's also entries there to change the timing of the game, the skin,
whether to have music or sound effects, etc. None of these have iconographic
representations to make them usable by the pre-literate set.
So yes, long term, the flags should be removed. Ideally, upstream would
be convinced to do it.
Bill
1:55 a.m.
On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 4:34 AM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at> wrote:
[snip]
That's 14 packages, and I'm sure there are more (if you know
of any others,
feel free to reply).
perl-Lingua-Flags, currently up for review.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=502054
But it doesn't actually use the flags - just makes them available for
other modules to use - though they are both technically
and substantively essential to this package.
--
Iain.
2:53 a.m.
On Sat, 2009-05-23 at 04:34 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
That's 14 packages, and I'm sure there are more (if you know
of any others,
feel free to reply).
Two more games that use flags:
- bygfoot. For this one, flags are most certainly essential - I can’t
imagine how to manage a football command without seeing, for example,
Brazil flag.
- springlobby. It shows user country/location with flag.
Regards,
Alexey
5480
days inactive
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25 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
Alexey Torkhov -
Bill Nottingham -
Björn Persson -
Christoph Wickert -
Ding Yi Chen -
Ewan Mac Mahon -
Gregory Maxwell -
Iain Arnell -
Johan Cwiklinski -
José Abílio Matos -
Kevin Kofler -
Konstantin Ryabitsev -
Mathieu Bridon -
Remi Collet -
Toshio Kuratomi