6:33 a.m.
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:30 AM Reindl Harald <h.reindl(a)thelounge.net> wrote:
Am 02.10.18 um 13:25 schrieb Neal Gompa:
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM Michal Schorm <mschorm(a)redhat.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to
send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
>>
>> Gmail
>> -> compose
>> -> options (bottom right)
>> -> plain text mode
>>
>> doesn't work for you?
>>
>> (I'm sending this e-mail with this setting so who knows how can check it)
>>
>
> This is not respected by any of the mobile apps.
so get k9 mail and use imap/smtp - problem solved and a devloper should
be capable to use mail proper
To be quite honest, I am not installing another mail app just for
this. There's not a single legitimate reason for me to bother with the
inconvenience of setting that up and effectively bypassing things like
2FA and whatnot.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
6:46 a.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
On Tue, Oct 02, 2018 07:33:44 -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
To be quite honest, I am not installing another mail app just for
this. There's not a single legitimate reason for me to bother with the
inconvenience of setting that up and effectively bypassing things like
2FA and whatnot.
A known, but unsolved issue from the looks of it (from a 2014 post):
https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/d7ySu-m1rgY
--
Thanks,
Regards,
Ankur Sinha "FranciscoD"
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha
Time zone: Europe/London
10:11 a.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 4:46 AM Ankur Sinha <sanjay.ankur(a)gmail.com> wrote:
A known, but unsolved issue from the looks of it (from a 2014 post):
https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/d7ySu-m1rgY
Yep... and the issue is 4 years old and ends with the recommendation
of "Send Feedback". I have
no idea why Google doesn't add text mode to it's gmail phone apps...
seems like it would be
a simple thing for them to do - but then again, look at their other
apps - especially their
messaging strategy (or apparent lack thereof). It's the wild west over there.
As @Chris mentioned, if people collectively believe it's a big enough
issue, start bouncing
HTML emails.
6:48 a.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
El mar., 2 oct. 2018 a las 13:44, Neal Gompa (<ngompa13(a)gmail.com>) escribió:
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:30 AM Reindl Harald <h.reindl(a)thelounge.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Am 02.10.18 um 13:25 schrieb Neal Gompa:
> > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM Michal Schorm <mschorm(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility
to send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
> >>
> >> Gmail
> >> -> compose
> >> -> options (bottom right)
> >> -> plain text mode
> >>
> >> doesn't work for you?
> >>
> >> (I'm sending this e-mail with this setting so who knows how can check
it)
> >>
> >
> > This is not respected by any of the mobile apps.
>
> so get k9 mail and use imap/smtp - problem solved and a devloper should
> be capable to use mail proper
>
To be quite honest, I am not installing another mail app just for
this. There's not a single legitimate reason for me to bother with the
inconvenience of setting that up and effectively bypassing things like
2FA and whatnot.
IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
R).
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
--
Iñaki Ucar
6:55 a.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
El mar., 2 oct. 2018 a las 13:48, Iñaki Ucar
(<iucar(a)fedoraproject.org>) escribió:
El mar., 2 oct. 2018 a las 13:44, Neal Gompa (<ngompa13(a)gmail.com>) escribió:
>
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:30 AM Reindl Harald <h.reindl(a)thelounge.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 02.10.18 um 13:25 schrieb Neal Gompa:
> > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM Michal Schorm <mschorm(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped
possibility to send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
> > >>
> > >> Gmail
> > >> -> compose
> > >> -> options (bottom right)
> > >> -> plain text mode
> > >>
> > >> doesn't work for you?
> > >>
> > >> (I'm sending this e-mail with this setting so who knows how can
check it)
> > >>
> > >
> > > This is not respected by any of the mobile apps.
> >
> > so get k9 mail and use imap/smtp - problem solved and a devloper should
> > be capable to use mail proper
> >
>
> To be quite honest, I am not installing another mail app just for
> this. There's not a single legitimate reason for me to bother with the
> inconvenience of setting that up and effectively bypassing things like
> 2FA and whatnot.
IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
R).
i.e., see multipart filtering and conversion to plaintext:
https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/filter...
It should be easy to set this up for all Fedora mailing lists.
>
>
> --
> 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
--
Iñaki Ucar
--
Iñaki Ucar
7:03 a.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:56 AM Iñaki Ucar <iucar(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
El mar., 2 oct. 2018 a las 13:48, Iñaki Ucar
(<iucar(a)fedoraproject.org>) escribió:
>
> El mar., 2 oct. 2018 a las 13:44, Neal Gompa (<ngompa13(a)gmail.com>) escribió:
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:30 AM Reindl Harald <h.reindl(a)thelounge.net>
wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Am 02.10.18 um 13:25 schrieb Neal Gompa:
> > > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM Michal Schorm
<mschorm(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped
possibility to send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
> > > >>
> > > >> Gmail
> > > >> -> compose
> > > >> -> options (bottom right)
> > > >> -> plain text mode
> > > >>
> > > >> doesn't work for you?
> > > >>
> > > >> (I'm sending this e-mail with this setting so who knows how
can check it)
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > This is not respected by any of the mobile apps.
> > >
> > > so get k9 mail and use imap/smtp - problem solved and a devloper should
> > > be capable to use mail proper
> > >
> >
> > To be quite honest, I am not installing another mail app just for
> > this. There's not a single legitimate reason for me to bother with the
> > inconvenience of setting that up and effectively bypassing things like
> > 2FA and whatnot.
>
> IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
> automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
> R).
i.e., see multipart filtering and conversion to plaintext:
https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/filter...
It should be easy to set this up for all Fedora mailing lists.
I don't think it's a good idea to convert/transform people's emails in
flight... But multipart mail renders as plain text by most plain text
mail clients, so I'm not sure it's really a problem from Gmail (which
always sends multipart mail when in rich text mode).
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
8:43 a.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
On Tuesday, 02 October 2018 at 13:55, Iñaki Ucar wrote:
El mar., 2 oct. 2018 a las 13:48, Iñaki Ucar
(<iucar(a)fedoraproject.org>) escribió:
[...]
> IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
> automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
> R).
i.e., see multipart filtering and conversion to plaintext:
https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/filter...
It should be easy to set this up for all Fedora mailing lists.
While it might be easy, it would break GPG signatures on such
e-mails. Arguably it could be skipped for such signed e-mails
as a compromise.
Regards,
Dominik
--
Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
-- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
1:38 a.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
* Iñaki Ucar:
IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
R).
In many cases, the quoting in the text/html part is easier to read (it's
clearer who wrote what) than in the text/plain part.
For example, Igor's message looks like this in HTML:
| Dear developers,
|
| Hello, Dominik ;)
|
| sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
| number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention
The first and last two lines of the snippet are quoted.
The corresponding text/plain version looks like this:
| > Dear developers,
| >
|
| Hello, Dominik ;)
|
| sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
| > number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention
So the quoting has become corrupted. In this case, it is not much of a
problem, but for inline replies it can be really confusing.
Thanks,
Florian
4:43 a.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
On Wednesday, 03 October 2018 at 08:38, Florian Weimer wrote:
* Iñaki Ucar:
> IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
> automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
> R).
In many cases, the quoting in the text/html part is easier to read (it's
clearer who wrote what) than in the text/plain part.
For me it's actually the other way around, because HTML part gets
processed by lynx. Quoting is marked by identation, which is not
automatically highlighted by VIM, while the > prefix in the text/plain
part is.
But that's beside the point. My point was about excessive and
unnecessary bandwith usage (the same information gets sent twice).
Regards,
Dominik
--
Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
-- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
5:04 a.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:44 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
<dominik(a)greysector.net> wrote:
On Wednesday, 03 October 2018 at 08:38, Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Iñaki Ucar:
>
> > IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
> > automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
> > R).
>
> In many cases, the quoting in the text/html part is easier to read (it's
> clearer who wrote what) than in the text/plain part.
For me it's actually the other way around, because HTML part gets
processed by lynx. Quoting is marked by identation, which is not
automatically highlighted by VIM, while the > prefix in the text/plain
part is.
But that's beside the point. My point was about excessive and
unnecessary bandwith usage (the same information gets sent twice).
I respect this issue, but I wonder if it this is a situation where we
are trying to solve a problem for a small number of people by
potential inconveniencing or excluding a lot of people.
While Internet plans vary, I wonder how many pay per bit? In
September, if you assume every message sent to devel list was plain
text and you further assume that the html version was 1.25 times
longer then the total traffic for the month would have been about 10.6
MB. While this is 2.25 more bits than were actually sent (based on
disk size), is it really a problem we should invest effort in fixing?
We know that more and more people are using mailers which can
accidentally or purposefully send HTML mail. We know that we want to
attract people, and not create unneeded barriers to entry. Saying
that you have to change your email client to participate in Fedora is
a huge disincentive. We are effectively putting a sign on the door
saying "go away."
I suggest that if we think this is a serious issue and that we want to
get the maximum possible help to those who are forced to pay by the
bit that we stop sending them mail they don't need all together. Lets
move this mailing list (and others) to discussion.fedoraproject.org.
There the person will be given the ability to select exactly which
subjects they see and allow to be transmitted down the wire.
regards,
bex
Regards,
Dominik
--
Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
-- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
_______________________________________________
devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
--
Brian (bex) Exelbierd | bexelbie(a)redhat.com | bex(a)pobox.com
Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
@bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
5:21 a.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
all this aside,HTML mail format is difficult to qoute and reply on
mobile,plain text would be nice.
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 3:34 PM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd <bexelbie(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:44 AM Dominik 'Rathann'
Mierzejewski
<dominik(a)greysector.net> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, 03 October 2018 at 08:38, Florian Weimer wrote:
> > * Iñaki Ucar:
> >
> > > IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
> > > automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
> > > R).
> >
> > In many cases, the quoting in the text/html part is easier to read
(it's
> > clearer who wrote what) than in the text/plain part.
>
> For me it's actually the other way around, because HTML part gets
> processed by lynx. Quoting is marked by identation, which is not
> automatically highlighted by VIM, while the > prefix in the text/plain
> part is.
>
> But that's beside the point. My point was about excessive and
> unnecessary bandwith usage (the same information gets sent twice).
I respect this issue, but I wonder if it this is a situation where we
are trying to solve a problem for a small number of people by
potential inconveniencing or excluding a lot of people.
While Internet plans vary, I wonder how many pay per bit? In
September, if you assume every message sent to devel list was plain
text and you further assume that the html version was 1.25 times
longer then the total traffic for the month would have been about 10.6
MB. While this is 2.25 more bits than were actually sent (based on
disk size), is it really a problem we should invest effort in fixing?
We know that more and more people are using mailers which can
accidentally or purposefully send HTML mail. We know that we want to
attract people, and not create unneeded barriers to entry. Saying
that you have to change your email client to participate in Fedora is
a huge disincentive. We are effectively putting a sign on the door
saying "go away."
I suggest that if we think this is a serious issue and that we want to
get the maximum possible help to those who are forced to pay by the
bit that we stop sending them mail they don't need all together. Lets
move this mailing list (and others) to discussion.fedoraproject.org.
There the person will be given the ability to select exactly which
subjects they see and allow to be transmitted down the wire.
regards,
bex
>
> Regards,
> Dominik
> --
> Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org
> There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
> oppression to develop psychic muscles.
> -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess
Irulan
> _______________________________________________
> devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.
org/archives/list/devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
--
Brian (bex) Exelbierd | bexelbie(a)redhat.com | bex(a)pobox.com
Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
@bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
_______________________________________________
devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.
fedoraproject.org
4:32 p.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline replies.
Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
lists. Gmail, both on the web and _especially_ on mobile, makes it almost
impossible to do quoting and inline replies properly. I can't imagine other
big consumer email providers are much better.
Yes, this sucks for having nuanced point-by-point discussions. But I don't
think that's a tide we're really going to hold back. We should look at other
tools that fit with the way people do asynchronous online discussion today.
As Brian noted, we're trying out Discourse at https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/
— if you're interested in trying it out, come join the conversation there.
On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 03:51:51PM +0530, Manas Mangaonkar wrote:
all this aside,HTML mail format is difficult to qoute and reply on
mobile,plain text would be nice.
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 3:34 PM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd <bexelbie(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:44 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
> <dominik(a)greysector.net> wrote:
> >
> > On Wednesday, 03 October 2018 at 08:38, Florian Weimer wrote:
> > > * Iñaki Ucar:
> > >
> > > > IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
> > > > automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
> > > > R).
> > >
> > > In many cases, the quoting in the text/html part is easier to read
> (it's
> > > clearer who wrote what) than in the text/plain part.
> >
> > For me it's actually the other way around, because HTML part gets
> > processed by lynx. Quoting is marked by identation, which is not
> > automatically highlighted by VIM, while the > prefix in the text/plain
> > part is.
> >
> > But that's beside the point. My point was about excessive and
> > unnecessary bandwith usage (the same information gets sent twice).
>
> I respect this issue, but I wonder if it this is a situation where we
> are trying to solve a problem for a small number of people by
> potential inconveniencing or excluding a lot of people.
>
> While Internet plans vary, I wonder how many pay per bit? In
> September, if you assume every message sent to devel list was plain
> text and you further assume that the html version was 1.25 times
> longer then the total traffic for the month would have been about 10.6
> MB. While this is 2.25 more bits than were actually sent (based on
> disk size), is it really a problem we should invest effort in fixing?
>
> We know that more and more people are using mailers which can
> accidentally or purposefully send HTML mail. We know that we want to
> attract people, and not create unneeded barriers to entry. Saying
> that you have to change your email client to participate in Fedora is
> a huge disincentive. We are effectively putting a sign on the door
> saying "go away."
>
> I suggest that if we think this is a serious issue and that we want to
> get the maximum possible help to those who are forced to pay by the
> bit that we stop sending them mail they don't need all together. Lets
> move this mailing list (and others) to discussion.fedoraproject.org.
> There the person will be given the ability to select exactly which
> subjects they see and allow to be transmitted down the wire.
>
> regards,
>
> bex
>
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dominik
> > --
> > Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org
> > There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
> > oppression to develop psychic muscles.
> > -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess
Irulan
> > _______________________________________________
> > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.
> org/archives/list/devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>
>
>
> --
> Brian (bex) Exelbierd | bexelbie(a)redhat.com | bex(a)pobox.com
> Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
> @bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
> _______________________________________________
> devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.
> fedoraproject.org
>
_______________________________________________
devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
6:13 p.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 23:33 Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline
replies.
Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
lists. Gmail, both on the web and _especially_ on mobile, makes it almost
impossible to do quoting and inline replies properly. I can't imagine other
big consumer email providers are much better.
Yes, this sucks for having nuanced point-by-point discussions. But I don't
think that's a tide we're really going to hold back. We should look at
other
tools that fit with the way people do asynchronous online discussion today.
As Brian noted, we're trying out Discourse at
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/
— if you're interested in trying it out, come join the conversation there.
How can we get our space there? Packaging and Rust topics.
On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 03:51:51PM +0530, Manas Mangaonkar wrote:
> all this aside,HTML mail format is difficult to qoute and reply
on
> mobile,plain text would be nice.
>
> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 3:34 PM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd <
bexelbie(a)redhat.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:44 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
> > <dominik(a)greysector.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wednesday, 03 October 2018 at 08:38, Florian Weimer wrote:
> > > > * Iñaki Ucar:
> > > >
> > > > > IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
> > > > > automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this
(e.g.,
> > > > > R).
> > > >
> > > > In many cases, the quoting in the text/html part is easier to read
> > (it's
> > > > clearer who wrote what) than in the text/plain part.
> > >
> > > For me it's actually the other way around, because HTML part gets
> > > processed by lynx. Quoting is marked by identation, which is not
> > > automatically highlighted by VIM, while the > prefix in the
text/plain
> > > part is.
> > >
> > > But that's beside the point. My point was about excessive and
> > > unnecessary bandwith usage (the same information gets sent twice).
> >
> > I respect this issue, but I wonder if it this is a situation where we
> > are trying to solve a problem for a small number of people by
> > potential inconveniencing or excluding a lot of people.
> >
> > While Internet plans vary, I wonder how many pay per bit? In
> > September, if you assume every message sent to devel list was plain
> > text and you further assume that the html version was 1.25 times
> > longer then the total traffic for the month would have been about 10.6
> > MB. While this is 2.25 more bits than were actually sent (based on
> > disk size), is it really a problem we should invest effort in fixing?
> >
> > We know that more and more people are using mailers which can
> > accidentally or purposefully send HTML mail. We know that we want to
> > attract people, and not create unneeded barriers to entry. Saying
> > that you have to change your email client to participate in Fedora is
> > a huge disincentive. We are effectively putting a sign on the door
> > saying "go away."
> >
> > I suggest that if we think this is a serious issue and that we want to
> > get the maximum possible help to those who are forced to pay by the
> > bit that we stop sending them mail they don't need all together. Lets
> > move this mailing list (and others) to discussion.fedoraproject.org.
> > There the person will be given the ability to select exactly which
> > subjects they see and allow to be transmitted down the wire.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > bex
> >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Dominik
> > > --
> > > Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org
> > > There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
> > > oppression to develop psychic muscles.
> > > -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the
Princess
Irulan
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > > Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> > > List Guidelines:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > > List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.
> > org/archives/list/devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Brian (bex) Exelbierd | bexelbie(a)redhat.com | bex(a)pobox.com
> > Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
> > @bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> > List Guidelines:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.
> > fedoraproject.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
_______________________________________________
devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
--
-Igor Gnatenko
6:26 p.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 17:32 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline
replies.
Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
lists.
...like this one. ;)
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
8:02 p.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
On Thu, 04 Oct 2018 16:26:21 -0700
Adam Williamson <adamwill(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 17:32 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline replies.
> Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
> lists.
...like this one. ;)
His email was from mutt as well! I guess fedora-devel just isn't
old-school enough :(
11:20 a.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 02:02:46AM +0100, Andrew Clayton wrote:
Adam Williamson <adamwill(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 17:32 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline replies.
> > Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
> > lists.
> ...like this one. ;)
His email was from mutt as well! I guess fedora-devel just isn't
old-school enough :(
Okay, I admit to some level of trolling there. :)
My point, though, is that I don't think we can afford to be exclusively
old-school to the point where it makes a significant barrier to entry. A few
years ago, I think the landscape was different. As more young people come to
the project with a new perspective on online communication, we should look
at how _our_ practices should evolve.
Top-posting isn't just an annoying Gmail thing; it's a whole different
approach to using email for conversations. And, yeah, it *is* a much worse
one than our old-school threaded, minimal-quoting, usenet-inspired style.
That's why the general trend is *away* from email.
The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in this way,
and https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who might have
some ... trepidation.
I'm not sayin' we are ready to shut this list down, but it's honestly worth
considering if a different approach will be more effective.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
12:41 p.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 02:02:46AM +0100, Andrew Clayton wrote:
> Adam Williamson <adamwill(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 17:32 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > > The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline
replies.
> > > Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
> > > lists.
> > ...like this one. ;)
> His email was from mutt as well! I guess fedora-devel just isn't
> old-school enough :(
Okay, I admit to some level of trolling there. :)
My point, though, is that I don't think we can afford to be exclusively
old-school to the point where it makes a significant barrier to entry.
I agree.
And I think this needs rephrasing since forever:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Place each part of your reply after the text it addresses (i.e., NO
Top-Posting, please see "Wikipedia - Top Posting" and links therein
for more on this).
It's one thing to state a preference for bottom posting, and why. But
the present guidelines encourage people to flip out whenever there's a
top post.
Top-posting isn't just an annoying Gmail thing; it's a whole
different
approach to using email for conversations. And, yeah, it *is* a much worse
one than our old-school threaded, minimal-quoting, usenet-inspired style.
That's why the general trend is *away* from email.
For all the faults of gmail, one thing I like is being able to search
lists within gmail.
The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in this way,
and https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who might have
some ... trepidation.
I'm not sayin' we are ready to shut this list down, but it's honestly worth
considering if a different approach will be more effective.
Far worse would be fragmented list/forums resulting from mutually
exclusive venues. It's probably a joke and not worth the effort to
have automagic behind the scenes cross posting between discourse
forums and hyperkitty (email) lists.
--
Chris Murphy
1:25 p.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
* Matthew Miller:
The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in
this way,
and https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who might have
some ... trepidation.
I'm more worried how these forums exclude commercial contributors. Rust
has the same NC terms. How is this supposed to work for projects which
are not exclusively run and used by hobbyists? How do you incorporate
material that is posted to the forum into free software, when the terms
clearly state that you cannot do this?
Thanks,
Florian
2:21 p.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 08:25:21PM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote:
I'm more worried how these forums exclude commercial
contributors. Rust
has the same NC terms. How is this supposed to work for projects which
are not exclusively run and used by hobbyists? How do you incorporate
material that is posted to the forum into free software, when the terms
clearly state that you cannot do this?
It looks like Foreman hasn't updated the software's boilerplate terms of
service, which puts user content under CC BY-NA-SA.
For the Fedora instance, we've changed that whole long page to a much
simpler statement that
1. Participants are bound by the Fedora Code of Conduct, and
2. User contributions need to be under an acceptable-for-Fedora license,
with the normal Fedora content license (which is CC BY-SA 3.0) by
default.
(See https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/tos)
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
9:12 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:21 AM Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
wrote:
...
That's why the general trend is *away* from email.
The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in this
way,
and
https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who
might
have
some ... trepidation.
I'm not sayin' we are ready to shut this list down, but it's honestly
worth
considering if a different approach will be more effective.
Before the daggers come out.... please take some time to checkout Fedora
Discourse
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/ and read the Foreman community link
above.
As I had previously mentioned, Discourse allows for RSS feeds and email
notifications. It also has a mailing list mode.
It really is a much better solution.
9:24 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 8:13 AM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:21 AM Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
wrote:
...
> That's why the general trend is *away* from email.
>
> The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in this
way,
> and
https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
> is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who might
have
> some ... trepidation.
>
> I'm not sayin' we are ready to shut this list down, but it's honestly
worth
> considering if a different approach will be more effective.
Before the daggers come out.... please take some time to checkout Fedora
Discourse
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/ and read the Foreman community
link above.
As I had previously mentioned, Discourse allows for RSS feeds and email
notifications. It also has a mailing list mode.
RSS is going away. And part of that, Mozilla is removing built-in RSS
support in Firefox 64.
Chris Murphy
9:39 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:25 AM Chris Murphy <lists(a)colorremedies.com>
wrote:
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 8:13 AM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:21 AM Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
> wrote:
> ...
> > That's why the general trend is *away* from email.
> >
> > The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in this
> way,
> > and
> https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
> > is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who might
> have
> > some ... trepidation.
> >
> > I'm not sayin' we are ready to shut this list down, but it's
honestly
> worth
> > considering if a different approach will be more effective.
>
> Before the daggers come out.... please take some time to checkout Fedora
> Discourse
> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/ and read the Foreman community
> link above.
>
> As I had previously mentioned, Discourse allows for RSS feeds and email
> notifications. It also has a mailing list mode.
>
RSS is going away. And part of that, Mozilla is removing built-in RSS
support in Firefox 64.
Well, for the moment, Discourse supports it (as well as Fedora updates) -
and FWIW I've never used RSS Support in Fx. I use Tiny Tiny RSS and
Inoreader and have yet to have a problem adding a feed from a site. There
are also many many other clients available - too many to list here.
If it goes away however, such is life - and I'll use the next best thing.
But RSS really isn't the point of this thread. My point is that Fedora
should move to Discourse. It's a much better solution for
discussion. We should publish a timeline and just do it.
9:55 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Il giorno mar 16 ott 2018 alle 16:39, "Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us> ha
scritto:
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:25 AM Chris Murphy
<lists(a)colorremedies.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 8:13 AM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:21 AM Matthew Miller
>> <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>> ...
>> > That's why the general trend is *away* from email.
>> >
>> > The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists
>> in this way,
>> > and
>> https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
>> > is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who
>> might have
>> > some ... trepidation.
>> >
>> > I'm not sayin' we are ready to shut this list down, but it's
>> honestly worth
>> > considering if a different approach will be more effective.
>>
>> Before the daggers come out.... please take some time to checkout
>> Fedora Discourse
>> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/ and read the Foreman
>> community link above.
>>
>> As I had previously mentioned, Discourse allows for RSS feeds and
>> email notifications. It also has a mailing list mode.
>
> RSS is going away. And part of that, Mozilla is removing built-in
> RSS support in Firefox 64.
>
Well, for the moment, Discourse supports it (as well as Fedora
updates) - and FWIW I've never used RSS Support in Fx. I use Tiny
Tiny RSS and Inoreader and have yet to have a problem adding a feed
from a site. There are also many many other clients available - too
many to list here.
If it goes away however, such is life - and I'll use the next best
thing.
And anyway.. Firefox is dropping built-in support for RSS, but you'll
be able to use RSS in Firefox through web extensions (or just use
another browser or an external application).
https://www.zdnet.com/article/end-nears-for-rss-firefox-64-to-drop-built-...
Let me add a personal consideration on this regard.
I'm deleting 90% of emails coming in this mailing list, but I have to
be subscribed and filter tens of threads every day just to get the 10%
I'm interested in. If you sum it day by day, it's a lot of waste.
In Discourse I'd be able to receive emails posted in the section I'm
interested in.
Or I may want to receive no email at all, just a notification on the
website.
My email client wouldn't be loaded of stuff I don't need.
My mind would be happier too :-)
10:01 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 8:39 AM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:25 AM Chris Murphy <lists(a)colorremedies.com wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 8:13 AM
Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
> >> On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:21
AM Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org >>
wrote:
>> ...
>> > That's why the general trend is *away* from email.
>> >> > The Foreman community
recently switched away from mailing lists in
>> this way,
>> > and
>> https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
>> > is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who
>> might have
>> > some ... trepidation.
>> >> > I'm not sayin'
we are ready to shut this list down, but it's honestly
>> worth
>> > considering if a different approach will be more effective.
> >> Before the daggers come out.... please take some time
to checkout Fedora
>> Discourse
>> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/ and read the Foreman community
>> link above.
> >> As I had previously mentioned, Discourse allows for
RSS feeds and email
>> notifications. It also has a mailing list mode.
> > RSS is going away. And part of
that, Mozilla is removing built-in RSS
> support in Firefox 64.
Well, for the moment, Discourse
supports it (as well as Fedora updates) -
and FWIW I've never used RSS Support in Fx. I use Tiny Tiny RSS and
Inoreader and have yet to have a problem adding a feed from a site. There
are also many many other clients available - too many to list here.
If it goes away however, such is life - and I'll use the next best thing.
But RSS really isn't the point of this thread. My point is that Fedora
should move to Discourse. It's a much better solution for
discussion. We should publish a timeline and just do it.
What does migration look like? Existing mail archive is imported into
Discourse, or is it a hard break? If hard break, what's the possibility of
a pseudo import, where Discourse searches include results from the mail
archive? Can the existing subscriptions be transferred to Discourse? And
could those transfers default to making list mode?
Infrastructure team would do this work? What's their position, available
resources, and timeframe?
Chris Murphy
10:05 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:39 AM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
But RSS really isn't the point of this thread. My point is that
Fedora should move to Discourse. It's a much better solution for
discussion. We should publish a timeline and just do it.
Fedora should not "just do it" because "it's a much better
solution".
If you want Fedora to consider moving to Discourse over email, it
would be nice to see an analysis like:
1) What are the pros and cons? Is Discourse's mailing list mode an
acceptable interface for people who prefer maillng lists and wouldn't
want to interact with Discourse itself?
2) What's the migration strategy look like? Can users on the mailing
lists be automatically added to the relevant discourse lists?
3) Will there be a transition period where the old list addresses
continue to work? Can they be maintained in perpetuity, or at least
aliased to the right thing?
I'm not saying *you* need to answer these questions, but I think
*someone* should before proposing to move all of Fedora's mailing list
infrastructure to Discourse. We would request answers to similar
questions for a system-wide change proposal, and I think generally
similar policies should be applied when considering major changes to
the distribution's infrastructure. And the mailing lists are
definitely an important part of the distribution's infrastructure.
Ben Rosser
10:11 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 8:06 AM Ben Rosser <rosser.bjr(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:39 AM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us>
wrote:
> But RSS really isn't the point of this thread. My point is that Fedora
should move to Discourse. It's a much better solution for
> discussion. We should publish a timeline and just do it.
Fedora should not "just do it" because "it's a much better
solution".
If you want Fedora to consider moving to Discourse over email, it
would be nice to see an analysis like:
1) What are the pros and cons? Is Discourse's mailing list mode an
acceptable interface for people who prefer maillng lists and wouldn't
want to interact with Discourse itself?
2) What's the migration strategy look like? Can users on the mailing
lists be automatically added to the relevant discourse lists?
3) Will there be a transition period where the old list addresses
continue to work? Can they be maintained in perpetuity, or at least
aliased to the right thing?
I'm not saying *you* need to answer these questions, but I think
*someone* should before proposing to move all of Fedora's mailing list
infrastructure to Discourse. We would request answers to similar
questions for a system-wide change proposal, and I think generally
similar policies should be applied when considering major changes to
the distribution's infrastructure. And the mailing lists are
definitely an important part of the distribution's infrastructure.
Did you checkout the Fedora Discourse site and read the Foreman analysis
that Matt provided?
We're not talking about re-inventing the wheel here... nor are we the first
organization that have done this.
I'm sure there are lots of lessons learned available to review - and I
would expect that the Fedora team
that is working on Discourse now is totally aware of this.
10:29 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:12 AM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
Did you checkout the Fedora Discourse site and read the Foreman
analysis that Matt provided?
Unless I'm missing something, I am not sure that either of these
things answers my questions. I am not asking the question "will
switching to Discourse increase user engagement" (which seems to be
what the linked Foreman article covers, unless I missed something?)--
I'm asking "what does the transition actually look like for current
users of the mailing lists".
We're not talking about re-inventing the wheel here... nor are we
the first organization that have done this.
I'm sure there are lots of lessons learned available to review - and I would expect
that the Fedora team
that is working on Discourse now is totally aware of this.
Great, then it should be easy for someone to write up a change
proposal-like document detailing the migration strategy.
I am not saying switching to Discourse is a *bad* idea. I am saying
that I, at least, would like to see a more serious proposal than
simply "just do it because it's better". That might require switching
one list over and seeing how well it works (and it sounded like the
Council was considering doing this with council-discuss, which is
probably a good first step).
Ben Rosser
10:40 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:30 AM Ben Rosser <rosser.bjr(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I am not saying switching to Discourse is a *bad* idea. I am saying
that I, at least, would like to see a more serious proposal than
simply "just do it because it's better". That might require switching
one list over and seeing how well it works (and it sounded like the
Council was considering doing this with council-discuss, which is
probably a good first step).
Council is considering it, and CommOps just started a 2-month
experiment to see how it goes. It makes sense to me that we wait and
see how those go before we start considering larger moves. I'm worried
in particular about larger lists such as this one where there's a
large number of users and a high volume of traffic. I haven't used
Discourse enough to know what the experience is like at that point.
I agree that moving to Discourse (or any other change in how we
communicate) needs to be backed by a well-thought-out proposal.
Whichever technology we choose, it will be better for some and worse
for others. That's unavoidable, but we should be intentional about the
changes we make and what impact they will have on the community.
--
Ben Cotton
Fedora Program Manager
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
10:51 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 8:41 AM Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Council is considering it, and CommOps just started a 2-month
experiment to see how it goes. It makes sense to me that we wait and
see how those go before we start considering larger moves. I'm worried
in particular about larger lists such as this one where there's a
large number of users and a high volume of traffic. I haven't used
Discourse enough to know what the experience is like at that point.
I agree that moving to Discourse (or any other change in how we
communicate) needs to be backed by a well-thought-out proposal.
Whichever technology we choose, it will be better for some and worse
for others. That's unavoidable, but we should be intentional about the
changes we make and what impact they will have on the community.
Hey Ben...
Yeah, based upon the trial and previous comments I knew it was being
considered. The point
of my thread was that many people probably haven't taken the time to
checkout the Fedora Discourse
website or read the Foreman analysis that Matt provided. They should.
The difference between using Discourse and mailing lists is night and day.
As far as larger lists... check out this link:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/biggest-busiest-discourse-forums/30674
1:58 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 08:51:33 -0700
"Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
Yeah, based upon the trial and previous comments I knew it was being
considered. The point
of my thread was that many people probably haven't taken the time to
checkout the Fedora Discourse
website or read the Foreman analysis that Matt provided. They
should.
Did this. I didn't like all the clicking; I prefer shortcut keys.
From what I can see on the web, Discourse is trying to mimic social
platforms so users familiar with them find it easy to use. Also seems
targeted to mobiles. That *could* be beneficial for getting new blood
into Fedora, as most younger people who show interest are going to be
in the intersection of those two factors.
The difference between using Discourse and mailing lists is night
and
day.
But which is night and which is day? :-) Seriously, this is a value
judgement, which is true for *you*, but not necessarily for others.
Are you similar to the people who are being targeted by this change?
Yes? That's evidence it might work.
As far as larger lists... check out this link:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/biggest-busiest-discourse-forums/30674
I don't think any of the Fedora lists I'm subscribed to are high
traffic, even this one, so that isn't really relevant. I suppose it
does show there is room for growth.
The fact that the software is open source gives insurance that if the
site goes under, Fedora doesn't have to lose all its interaction
archives. Maybe the database could be backed up periodically, so in an
emergency Fedora could run the software and bring them back up.
3:27 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:59 AM stan <stanl-fedorauser(a)vfemail.net> wrote:
On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 08:51:33 -0700
"Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
> Yeah, based upon the trial and previous comments I knew it was being
> considered. The point
> of my thread was that many people probably haven't taken the time to
> checkout the Fedora Discourse
> website or read the Foreman analysis that Matt provided. They
> should.
Did this. I didn't like all the clicking; I prefer shortcut keys.
Press the ? key and a window will pop up with all the keyboard shutcuts
From what I can see on the web, Discourse is trying to mimic social
platforms so users familiar with them find it easy to use. Also
seems
targeted to mobiles. That *could* be beneficial for getting new blood
into Fedora, as most younger people who show interest are going to be
in the intersection of those two factors.
> The difference between using Discourse and mailing lists is night and
> day.
But which is night and which is day? :-) Seriously, this is a value
judgement, which is true for *you*, but not necessarily for others.
Are you similar to the people who are being targeted by this change?
Yes? That's evidence it might work.
I believe the product provides a more natural discussion environment, while
allowing a mailing list mode for those who prefer that. Considering the
many
current deployments, that appears to be a popular opinion.
> As far as larger lists... check out this link:
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/biggest-busiest-discourse-forums/30674
I don't think any of the Fedora lists I'm subscribed to are high
traffic, even this one, so that isn't really relevant. I suppose it
does show there is room for growth.
That was mainly in response to a concern about the platform scalibility.
4:11 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 13:27:12 -0700
"Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
Press the ? key and a window will pop up with all the keyboard
shutcuts
I couldn't find a way to move to the next topic from within the current
topic. I had to do a u, then a down arrow, then an enter. That is, I
finished reading a response stream, and just want to open the next
one. I tried J and K, but they did nothing except appear in a page
search entry box.
The other thing, is there a way to put the responses in threaded mode,
so they are in context like a tree, the way a newsreader would do it.
The display seems to be a posting time based stream of responses. Maybe
there is a cue I'm missing that tells the post the response is to? Or
maybe it is because I'm not registered and logged in. Is there extra
functionality then?
4:40 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 14:11:21 -0700
stan <stanl-fedorauser(a)vfemail.net> wrote:
I couldn't find a way to move to the next topic from within the
current topic. I had to do a u, then a down arrow, then an enter.
This is wrong. I did u and then had to click on a topic. It didn't
put the focus on the previous topic.
4:53 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 14:11:21 -0700
stan <stanl-fedorauser(a)vfemail.net> wrote:
The other thing, is there a way to put the responses in threaded
mode,
so they are in context like a tree, the way a newsreader would do it.
The display seems to be a posting time based stream of responses.
Maybe there is a cue I'm missing that tells the post the response is
to? Or maybe it is because I'm not registered and logged in. Is
there extra functionality then?
This is already done, it puts the number of replies and the replies
under each post. The first topic I read must have been without
threads. When I read a topic with threads it was obvious.
2:19 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Il giorno mar 16 ott 2018 alle 20:58, stan
<stanl-fedorauser(a)vfemail.net> ha scritto:
On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 08:51:33 -0700
"Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
> Yeah, based upon the trial and previous comments I knew it was being
> considered. The point
> of my thread was that many people probably haven't taken the time to
> checkout the Fedora Discourse
> website or read the Foreman analysis that Matt provided. They
> should.
Did this. I didn't like all the clicking; I prefer shortcut keys.
From what I can see on the web, Discourse is trying to mimic social
platforms so users familiar with them find it easy to use. Also seems
targeted to mobiles. That *could* be beneficial for getting new blood
into Fedora, as most younger people who show interest are going to be
in the intersection of those two factors.
I don't see it this way.
I'm attracted by Discourse as I'm attracted by stackoverflow or similar
platforms. There are obvious reasons why these platforms work better
than the old mailing lists and people using these tools is growing.
I'm not young (getting close to the fourties) and I don't use social,
but I'm definitely in the target.
I've seen this same discussion in another (smaller) open source project
I contribute to for some years. Basically the contrast is between "old
school people" who are attached to their old habits (sometimes for a
very good reason! I love and appreciate old school people) and people
who are curious about new tools they think could improve their and
others' experience.
> The difference between using Discourse and mailing lists is
night
> and
> day.
But which is night and which is day? :-) Seriously, this is a value
judgement, which is true for *you*, but not necessarily for others.
Are you similar to the people who are being targeted by this change?
Yes? That's evidence it might work.
Of course it's subjective. But we don't know how many people in this
community would be in favour of this or that.
The success of Stackoverflow makes me think though...
> As far as larger lists... check out this link:
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/biggest-busiest-discourse-forums/30674
I don't think any of the Fedora lists I'm subscribed to are high
traffic, even this one, so that isn't really relevant. I suppose it
does show there is room for growth.
Perhaps each single list is not high traffic, but if you are subscribed
to 3 or 4 Fedora lists (as I am) then you get a lot of traffic. My
Fedora folder is the busiest folder in my email client. Sometimes I
unsubscribe to some lists, then subscribe again... Discourse would be
my "day" (see above) :D
7:30 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:29:33AM -0400, Ben Rosser wrote:
I am not saying switching to Discourse is a *bad* idea. I am saying
that I, at least, would like to see a more serious proposal than
simply "just do it because it's better". That might require switching
one list over and seeing how well it works (and it sounded like the
Council was considering doing this with council-discuss, which is
probably a good first step).
Yeah, I certainly am not suggesting we switch devel list, at least not for
the forseeable future. Even if this whole thread kind of started with
observations about actual problems we are seeing with the world today and
mailing lists.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
4:22 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Ben Rosser <rosser.bjr(a)gmail.com> wrote:
2) What's the migration strategy look like? Can users on the
mailing
lists be automatically added to the relevant discourse lists?
Can the mailing lists be transferred from Mailman to Discourse and
continue to be the *same* mailing list, with the same address and the
same list ID? Because otherwise you'll break things for subscribers and
force them to redo their configuration.
Just force-subscribing people to a new mailing list won't cause their
local programs to handle messages the same way as those from an old
mailing list. Programs will correctly see a new mailing list that they
don't know anything about, and everybody will have to tell their
programs how to handle messages from this new mailing list.
Transitions like this are what the List-ID header field is for. Even if
the list address changes, the list ID is supposed to remain unchanged,
so that sorting and filtering rules can recognize the list. But I'm sure
many people select on the list address instead, so in practice you have
to preserve both the list ID and the list address to make the transition
smooth.
Björn Persson
4:45 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 3:22 PM, Björn Persson <Bjorn(a)xn--rombobjrn-67a.se> wrote:
Ben Rosser <rosser.bjr(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> 2) What's the migration strategy look like? Can users on the mailing
> lists be automatically added to the relevant discourse lists?
Can the mailing lists be transferred from Mailman to Discourse and
continue to be the *same* mailing list, with the same address and the
same list ID? Because otherwise you'll break things for subscribers and
force them to redo their configuration.
Just force-subscribing people to a new mailing list won't cause their
local programs to handle messages the same way as those from an old
mailing list. Programs will correctly see a new mailing list that they
don't know anything about, and everybody will have to tell their
programs how to handle messages from this new mailing list.
Transitions like this are what the List-ID header field is for. Even if
the list address changes, the list ID is supposed to remain unchanged,
so that sorting and filtering rules can recognize the list. But I'm sure
many people select on the list address instead, so in practice you have
to preserve both the list ID and the list address to make the transition
smooth.
Along those same lines, we have a bunch of permalinks floating about
with the current mailing list. The permalink is available in
hyperkitty UI, as well as a header in the mails. For example the email
I'm replying to has header:
Archived-At:
<https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.o...
Ideally these get preserved somehow.
--
Chris Murphy
3:20 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
* Björn Persson:
Ben Rosser <rosser.bjr(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> 2) What's the migration strategy look like? Can users on the mailing
> lists be automatically added to the relevant discourse lists?
Can the mailing lists be transferred from Mailman to Discourse and
continue to be the *same* mailing list, with the same address and the
same list ID? Because otherwise you'll break things for subscribers and
force them to redo their configuration.
Discourse uses labels instead of folders, and a discussion can have
multiple labels, so filing email into separate folders per topic (devel
vs legal vs docs) is tricky because you get only a single message. It
can be done, but it's a bit of client-side work.
On the Rust Discourse instance, the email threading doesn't feel quite
right, either.
Email responses end up with hard line breaks in the web interface, which
may not look as nice as web-submitted contributions.
I assume that if you don't care about folders and threads, it will work
well enough.
Although it would make me sad to see the move. Mailing lists are hardly
the main source of Fedora overhead for me. That's dist-git and RPM
patch management. 8-(
Thanks,
Florian
11:13 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:20:49 +0200,
Florian Weimer <fweimer(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Email responses end up with hard line breaks in the web interface, which
may not look as nice as web-submitted contributions.
Did you test this for format=flowed? I would expect hard line breaks if that
wasn't used.
12:16 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
* Bruno Wolff, III:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:20:49 +0200,
Florian Weimer <fweimer(a)redhat.com> wrote:
>
>Email responses end up with hard line breaks in the web interface, which
>may not look as nice as web-submitted contributions.
Did you test this for format=flowed? I would expect hard line breaks
if that wasn't used.
I did not test with format=flowed. It may look better there, but I
stopped using it because it looks really bad for mailing list usage.
(Really long lines in most web-based mailing list archives and stuff
like that.)
Thanks,
Florian
11:31 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:06 AM Ben Rosser <rosser.bjr(a)gmail.com> wrote:
2) What's the migration strategy look like? Can users on the
mailing
lists be automatically added to the relevant discourse lists?
3) Will there be a transition period where the old list addresses
continue to work? Can they be maintained in perpetuity, or at least
aliased to the right thing?
I agree these are absolutely the most important questions to answer.
Silently breaking the experience for anyone not paying enough attention is
not acceptable.
-Dan
9:41 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Il giorno mar 16 ott 2018 alle 16:12, "Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us> ha
scritto:
On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:21 AM Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
...
> That's why the general trend is *away* from email.
>
> The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in
this way,
> and
https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
> is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who
might have
> some ... trepidation.
>
> I'm not sayin' we are ready to shut this list down, but it's
honestly worth
> considering if a different approach will be more effective.
Before the daggers come out.... please take some time to checkout
Fedora Discourse
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/ and read the Foreman community
link above.
As I had previously mentioned, Discourse allows for RSS feeds and
email notifications. It also has a mailing list mode.
It really is a much better solution.
I agree with you and I'm happy about the discussion.fedoraproject.org
"experiment".
12:31 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, 2018-10-16 at 07:12 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:21 AM Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
wrote:
...
> That's why the general trend is *away* from email.
>
> The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in this
way,
> and
https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
> is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who might
have
> some ... trepidation.
>
> I'm not sayin' we are ready to shut this list down, but it's honestly
worth
> considering if a different approach will be more effective.
Before the daggers come out.... please take some time to checkout Fedora
Discourse
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/ and read the Foreman community link
above.
As I had previously mentioned, Discourse allows for RSS feeds and email
notifications. It also has a mailing list mode.
From the foreman post, in the comments:
Email interface does not really work, there should be rather called
“notifications”. You must visit the site eventually.
I personally find this a fatal flaw, I do not have time to waste
visiting slow websites for each project I follow. If I have to switch
away from my mail client I just end up unfollowing the project unless I
am focusing specifically on it at that time.
It really is a much better solution.
Better for whom and for what purpose ?
I am sure it won't be better for me, all "web forums" I ever used made
for my disappearence from the platform as it was too expensive (time-
wise) for me to keep up.
Simo.
--
Simo Sorce
Sr. Principal Software Engineer
Red Hat, Inc
12:35 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, 2018-10-16 at 13:31 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
On Tue, 2018-10-16 at 07:12 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:21 AM Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
> wrote:
> ...
> > That's why the general trend is *away* from email.
> >
> > The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in this
>
> way,
> > and
>
> https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
> > is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who might
>
> have
> > some ... trepidation.
> >
> > I'm not sayin' we are ready to shut this list down, but it's
honestly
>
> worth
> > considering if a different approach will be more effective.
>
> Before the daggers come out.... please take some time to checkout Fedora
> Discourse
> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/ and read the Foreman community link
> above.
>
> As I had previously mentioned, Discourse allows for RSS feeds and email
> notifications. It also has a mailing list mode.
From the foreman post, in the comments:
Email interface does not really work, there should be rather called
“notifications”. You must visit the site eventually.
I personally find this a fatal flaw, I do not have time to waste
visiting slow websites for each project I follow. If I have to switch
away from my mail client I just end up unfollowing the project unless I
am focusing specifically on it at that time.
> It really is a much better solution.
Better for whom and for what purpose ?
I am sure it won't be better for me, all "web forums" I ever used made
for my disappearence from the platform as it was too expensive (time-
wise) for me to keep up.
Ah nice side-thing I just found out, discussion.fedoraproject.org does
not show *anything* unless I let my browser access this website
http://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com
That doesn't feel right.
Simo.
--
Simo Sorce
Sr. Principal Software Engineer
Red Hat, Inc
12:38 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:35 PM Simo Sorce <simo(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Ah nice side-thing I just found out, discussion.fedoraproject.org does
not show *anything* unless I let my browser access this website
http://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com
That doesn't feel right.
Fedora is not hosting its Discourse instance. And I think it appears
to be a general trend of no longer self-hosting the infrastructure we
leverage. Personally, I think that's a mistake that will probably bite
us again (remember Transifex?). But if that's the way we want to go,
oh well.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
1:15 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:39 AM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:35 PM Simo Sorce <simo(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
>
> Ah nice side-thing I just found out, discussion.fedoraproject.org does
> not show *anything* unless I let my browser access this website
> http://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com
>
> That doesn't feel right.
>
Fedora is not hosting its Discourse instance. And I think it appears
to be a general trend of no longer self-hosting the infrastructure we
leverage. Personally, I think that's a mistake that will probably bite
us again (remember Transifex?). But if that's the way we want to go,
oh well.
It's most likely about budgets and manpower. Many companies now have
outsourced many parts
of their infrastructure... especially email - it's usually cheaper, and
many companies no longer want to
deal with supporting it.
3:38 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 at 19:35, Simo Sorce wrote:
On Tue, 2018-10-16 at 13:31 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
> On Tue, 2018-10-16 at 07:12 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:21 AM Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
> > wrote:
> > ...
> > > That's why the general trend is *away* from email.
> > >
> > > The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in this
> >
> > way,
> > > and
> >
> > https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
> > > is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who might
> >
> > have
> > > some ... trepidation.
> > >
> > > I'm not sayin' we are ready to shut this list down, but it's
honestly
> >
> > worth
> > > considering if a different approach will be more effective.
> >
> > Before the daggers come out.... please take some time to checkout Fedora
> > Discourse
> > https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/ and read the Foreman community link
> > above.
> >
> > As I had previously mentioned, Discourse allows for RSS feeds and email
> > notifications. It also has a mailing list mode.
>
> From the foreman post, in the comments:
> Email interface does not really work, there should be rather called
> “notifications”. You must visit the site eventually.
>
> I personally find this a fatal flaw, I do not have time to waste
> visiting slow websites for each project I follow. If I have to switch
> away from my mail client I just end up unfollowing the project unless I
> am focusing specifically on it at that time.
>
> > It really is a much better solution.
>
> Better for whom and for what purpose ?
>
> I am sure it won't be better for me, all "web forums" I ever used
made
> for my disappearence from the platform as it was too expensive (time-
> wise) for me to keep up.
Ah nice side-thing I just found out, discussion.fedoraproject.org does
not show *anything* unless I let my browser access this website
http://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com
That doesn't feel right.
It kind of works with JavaScript not allowed from both
discussion.fedoraproject.org and discourse-cdn-sjc1.com, but if you
allow JS from discussion.fedoraproject.org only, it just shows you a
blank page.
And I agree, too much clicking. Reading e-mail with mutt on a terminal
is so much faster.
Regards,
Dominik
--
Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
-- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
7:07 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 at 22:38, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote:
[...]
And I agree, too much clicking. Reading e-mail with mutt on a
terminal
is so much faster.
So, I tried the keyboard navigation mentioned elsewhere in the thread.
Not easy to use at all and still have to use the browser.
I tried the mailing list mode to have it send me e-mail messages,
but the messages are multipart/alternative (html+text) with the
text part mangled and containing pieces of HTML code. Failure here
as well.
For someone who doesn't like to use a browser to access e-mail or
any kind of discussion-type messaging, Discourse is not a good
tool in my opinion.
If it had a NNTP interface, I'd give it another try.
Regards,
Dominik
--
Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
-- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
9:23 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 5:07 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski <
dominik(a)greysector.net> wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 at 22:38, Dominik 'Rathann'
Mierzejewski wrote:
[...]
> And I agree, too much clicking. Reading e-mail with mutt on a terminal
> is so much faster.
So, I tried the keyboard navigation mentioned elsewhere in the thread.
Not easy to use at all and still have to use the browser.
I believe you meant to say "still have to use a mouse." The keyboard
navigation is for the browser mode - so
you are using the browser to access it. I've tried the shortcuts and use a
few... I mix and match.
I tried the mailing list mode to have it send me e-mail messages,
but the messages are multipart/alternative (html+text) with the
text part mangled and containing pieces of HTML code. Failure here
as well.
Could this be because of the particular email client you're using? I use
gmail and they look fine. Probably not fair to judge the system on the
capabilities
of your email client. Wouldn't the same thing happen if people sent you
email from
gmail, etc. with embedded html? What the mailing list mode does do is to
allow you to
read and respond without a browser.
For someone who doesn't like to use a browser to access e-mail or
any kind of discussion-type messaging, Discourse is not a good
tool in my opinion.
That's fair... if your don't like to use a browser to access email. You're
entitled
to your preferences and opinion - but many people do like using browser
based
email.
9:37 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 07:23:28AM -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 5:07 AM Dominik 'Rathann'
Mierzejewski <
dominik(a)greysector.net> wrote:
> I tried the mailing list mode to have it send me e-mail messages,
> but the messages are multipart/alternative (html+text) with the
> text part mangled and containing pieces of HTML code. Failure here
> as well.
Could this be because of the particular email client you're using? I use
gmail and they look fine. Probably not fair to judge the system on the
capabilities
of your email client. Wouldn't the same thing happen if people sent you
email from
gmail, etc. with embedded html? What the mailing list mode does do is to
allow you to
read and respond without a browser.
No, if an email sender (Discourse) uses multipart/alternative with two
attachments, text/plain and text/html, then it is required that the
sender format the text/plain part as text with no HTML in it. It is
also required to send semantically similar contents in both the
text/plain and text/html parts, so that the text/plain part can act as
a real human-readable alternative in the multipart/alternative message
(i.e. it shouldn't set the text/plain part to be something like "Your
email client doesn't support HTML. Please open this message in an
HTML-capable client.")
In my experience so far with the 3 messages I've received from
Discourse in mailing-list mode, it doesn't send raw HTML in the
text/plain attachment. It sends something that looks like BBcode:
[quote="znmeb, post:12, topic:129, full:true"]
GitHub is best for discovery - nobody searches GitLab or Bitbucket for
projects. I use them for private repos, but if I want to engage a
wider community than my workstation or laptop, I’m going to put my
repo on GitHub.
[/quote]
10:52 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 7:38 AM Anderson, Charles R <cra(a)wpi.edu> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 07:23:28AM -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 5:07 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski <
> dominik(a)greysector.net> wrote:
> > I tried the mailing list mode to have it send me e-mail messages,
> > but the messages are multipart/alternative (html+text) with the
> > text part mangled and containing pieces of HTML code. Failure here
> > as well.
>
> Could this be because of the particular email client you're using? I use
> gmail and they look fine. Probably not fair to judge the system on the
> capabilities
> of your email client. Wouldn't the same thing happen if people sent you
> email from
> gmail, etc. with embedded html? What the mailing list mode does do is
to
> allow you to
> read and respond without a browser.
No, if an email sender (Discourse) uses multipart/alternative with two
attachments, text/plain and text/html, then it is required that the
sender format the text/plain part as text with no HTML in it.
Where is that defined? Probably would be a good idea to open a bug with
them
if they are violating some official standard.
It is
also required to send semantically similar contents in both the
text/plain and text/html parts, so that the text/plain part can act as
a real human-readable alternative in the multipart/alternative message
(i.e. it shouldn't set the text/plain part to be something like "Your
email client doesn't support HTML. Please open this message in an
HTML-capable client.")
In my experience so far with the 3 messages I've received from
Discourse in mailing-list mode, it doesn't send raw HTML in the
text/plain attachment. It sends something that looks like BBcode:
Well, which is it? Rathann says html, you say bbcode? Regardless, as I
mentioned
above, if they have a bug, then it should be reported for them to address.
Mailing list mode
has been out for several years now - seems to me if this were a pervasive
issue with a
published standardize solution, they should take care of it.
Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me.
1:02 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb <samuel(a)sieb.net> wrote:
On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me.
That's because gmail only shows the HTML part.
Ah... so it's a client issue. Good to know.
1:31 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 11:02:58AM -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb <samuel(a)sieb.net>
wrote:
> On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me.
>
> That's because gmail only shows the HTML part.
>
Ah... so it's a client issue. Good to know.
No. You are either completely misunderstanding the issue, or are
arrogantly choosing to ignore it. Your tone comes across as the
latter, but I apologize if I misconstrue your intent.
Let me try to explain again. Different people prefer different
clients. Some people prefer text-only clients that have no capability
to render HTML. That's okay--MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail
Extenstions RFC 2045 and RFC 2046) provide a way to support both
text-only and HTML clients, called multipart/alternative in MIME. It
is up to the sender of the email to support MIME multipart/alternative
correctly by supplying meaningful content in two separate mail
attachments--text/plain for text-only clients, and text/html for Gmail
and other HTML-capable clients. If you are using Gmail you will only
see the HTML part. You need to see the text/plain part to see what
issues it has.
To claim that your preference of email client, Gmail, "looks fine" and
then dismissing anyone else's issues as "a client issue" implies that
you don't care about people who use different clients. That is not a
way to garner support and reaching consensus for changing how the
Fedora Project communicates with its members.
1:52 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 15:31 Anderson, Charles R <cra(a)wpi.edu> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 11:02:58AM -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb <samuel(a)sieb.net> wrote:
> > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me.
> > > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part.
> > Ah... so it's a client
issue. Good to know.
No. You are either completely misunderstanding the issue, or are
arrogantly choosing to ignore it. Your tone comes across as the
latter, but I apologize if I misconstrue your intent.
Let me try to explain again. Different people prefer different
clients. Some people prefer text-only clients that have no capability
to render HTML. That's okay--MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail
Extenstions RFC 2045 and RFC 2046) provide a way to support both
text-only and HTML clients, called multipart/alternative in MIME. It
is up to the sender of the email to support MIME multipart/alternative
correctly by supplying meaningful content in two separate mail
attachments--text/plain for text-only clients, and text/html for Gmail
and other HTML-capable clients. If you are using Gmail you will only
see the HTML part. You need to see the text/plain part to see what
issues it has.
To claim that your preference of email client, Gmail, "looks fine" and
then dismissing anyone else's issues as "a client issue" implies that
you don't care about people who use different clients. That is not a
way to garner support and reaching consensus for changing how the
Fedora Project communicates with its members.
I'm not an email expert by any means. What I said was that it works
perfectly fine for me. If people have an issue with it they should file a
bug or enhancement request with the discourse project. That way the issue
could be addressed and everyone could benefit.
2:34 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 03:52:17PM -0300, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
I'm not an email expert by any means. What I said was that it
works
perfectly fine for me. If people have an issue with it they should file a
bug or enhancement request with the discourse project. That way the issue
could be addressed and everyone could benefit.
Okay, so you care only for your own needs? Everyone else is on their
own?
You are advocating for a change to how Fedora communicates, while
dismissing people's concerns about that change, and then putting the
onus on those same people to help improve the third-party cloud hosted
product so the change can work for them. How about we simply leave
things the way they are instead? It has worked fine for 15+ years.
3:10 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 16:35 Anderson, Charles R <cra(a)wpi.edu> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 03:52:17PM -0300, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> I'm not an email expert by any means. What I said was that it works
> perfectly fine for me. If people have an issue with it they should file a
> bug or enhancement request with the discourse project. That way the issue
> could be addressed and everyone could benefit.
Okay, so you care only for your own needs? Everyone else is on their
own?
You are advocating for a change to how Fedora communicates, while
dismissing people's concerns about that change, and then putting the
onus on those same people to help improve the third-party cloud hosted
product so the change can work for them. How about we simply leave
things the way they are instead? It has worked fine for 15+ years.
Again... I am not an email expert nor am I experiencing the issue. If you
are having the issue you are best capable to report it.
As far as not being concerned... I wouldn't be engaging in a conversation
if I weren't.
Things change... Technology advances...
1:40 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 11:02 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb <samuel(a)sieb.net>
wrote:
> On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me.
>
> That's because gmail only shows the HTML part.
>
Ah... so it's a client issue. Good to know.
No it is a service issue that just happen not to affect *your* client
of choice. There is a big difference.
Simo.
--
Simo Sorce
Sr. Principal Software Engineer
Red Hat, Inc
1:51 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce <simo(a)redhat.com> wrote:
On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 11:02 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb <samuel(a)sieb.net> wrote:
>
> > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me.
> >
> > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part.
> >
>
> Ah... so it's a client issue. Good to know.
No it is a service issue that just happen not to affect *your* client
of choice. There is a big difference.
Simo.
You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent
responses. I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with
all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc.
2:02 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, 2018-10-18 at 11:51 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce <simo(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 11:02 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb <samuel(a)sieb.net> wrote:
> >
> > > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me.
> > >
> > > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part.
> > >
> >
> > Ah... so it's a client issue. Good to know.
>
> No it is a service issue that just happen not to affect *your* client
> of choice. There is a big difference.
>
> Simo.
>
You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent
responses. I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with
all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc.
I did read the thread, and there is no difficulty at all to read a
thread, given my client can do threading just fine, the comment stands.
You like gmail, and it just so happen discourse will generate mails
that rendere well in gmail ... I would be ready to bet that is because
the developers of that feature only test with gmail ...
The point was, you are looking only at your experience and not making
an analysis of what the impact of a change is for *all* the users.
You also state an opinion "discourse is just better" as fact, with a
few other *opinions* only as supporting evidence.
I think discourse may be a decent tool for fedora-users@ or some other
forum, where discussion is shorter and generally more of a quick
answer/reply shot.
But devel@ is a completely different story, if you think discourse is
much better is it possible that it's because your client doesn't handle
mailing list very well and you should look for a better client ?
Simo.
--
Simo Sorce
Sr. Principal Software Engineer
Red Hat, Inc
2:12 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:03 PM Simo Sorce <simo(a)redhat.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2018-10-18 at 11:51 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce <simo(a)redhat.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 11:02 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb <samuel(a)sieb.net>
wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me.
> > > >
> > > > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Ah... so it's a client issue. Good to know.
> >
> > No it is a service issue that just happen not to affect *your* client
> > of choice. There is a big difference.
> >
> > Simo.
> >
>
> You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent
> responses. I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with
> all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc.
I did read the thread, and there is no difficulty at all to read a
thread, given my client can do threading just fine, the comment stands.
Well, maybe you need to read it again - because you're missing the point.
2:50 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, 2018-10-18 at 12:12 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:03 PM Simo Sorce <simo(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, 2018-10-18 at 11:51 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce <simo(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 11:02 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb <samuel(a)sieb.net>
>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > > > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me.
> > > > >
> > > > > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ah... so it's a client issue. Good to know.
> > >
> > > No it is a service issue that just happen not to affect *your* client
> > > of choice. There is a big difference.
> > >
> > > Simo.
> > >
> >
> > You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent
> > responses. I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with
> > all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc.
>
> I did read the thread, and there is no difficulty at all to read a
> thread, given my client can do threading just fine, the comment stands.
>
> Well, maybe you need to read it again - because you're missing the point.
Your quoting tells me half the issue is in the setup you chose or are
forced to use.
I think I understand the point, I just do not reach the same
conclusions you do, each of us reach their conclusions based on their
experiences. So perhaps we are both reaching wrong conclusions, I am
not saying I am *right*, what I am saying is that you are not offering
compelling reasons *to me*.
Simo.
--
Simo Sorce
Sr. Principal Software Engineer
Red Hat, Inc
2:24 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 03:02:52PM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
On Thu, 2018-10-18 at 11:51 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce <simo(a)redhat.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 11:02 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb <samuel(a)sieb.net>
wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me.
> > > >
> > > > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part.
> > >
> > > Ah... so it's a client issue. Good to know.
> >
> > No it is a service issue that just happen not to affect *your* client
> > of choice. There is a big difference.
>
> You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent
> responses. I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with
> all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc.
I did read the thread, and there is no difficulty at all to read a
thread, given my client can do threading just fine, the comment stands.
You like gmail […]
Using GMail (both legacy and Inbox) as a representation of email
workflow and ergonomy is not fair. Gmail as a client is abysmal.
No threading, no coloring of different level of citation, no integrated
GPG support, no comfortable editor.
Honest comparison would be between Discourse and Mutt+procmail, or
Gnus.
If one insist on using GMail as a server (instead of running one),
I believe there's a IMAP access method which should work with mutt.
--
Tomasz .. oo o. oo o. .o .o o. o. oo o. ..
Torcz .. .o .o .o .o oo oo .o .. .. oo oo
o.o.o. .o .. o. o. o. o. o. o. oo .. .. o.
2:32 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:24 PM Tomasz Torcz <tomek(a)pipebreaker.pl> wrote:
> You like gmail […]
Using GMail (both legacy and Inbox) as a representation of email
workflow and ergonomy is not fair. Gmail as a client is abysmal.
No threading, no coloring of different level of citation, no integrated
GPG support, no comfortable editor.
Honest comparison would be between Discourse and Mutt+procmail, or
Gnus.
If one insist on using GMail as a server (instead of running one),
I believe there's a IMAP access method which should work with mutt.
I use gmail... I don't like it... it's a software tool... there is no
emotional attachment. That said,
the point of this thread isn't gmail.
2:40 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 09:24:03PM +0200, Tomasz Torcz wrote:
Using GMail (both legacy and Inbox) as a representation of email
workflow and ergonomy is not fair. Gmail as a client is abysmal.
No threading, no coloring of different level of citation, no integrated
GPG support, no comfortable editor.
Honest comparison would be between Discourse and Mutt+procmail, or
Gnus.
If one insist on using GMail as a server (instead of running one),
I believe there's a IMAP access method which should work with mutt.
I agree that Gmail is awful. And, moreso, specifically hostile to
mailing lists.
However — and I say this as a die-hard mutt user with my own postfix
server — we absolutely, no way, should make it seem like running such a
setup is a prerequisite to involvement in Fedora development. If that's
"fair", I don't want "fair".
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
2:28 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce <simo(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent
responses. I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with
all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc.
We have been doing that. The features touted for Discourse are automatic
and natural for email lists, and said to be poorly mimicked in Discourse.
2:34 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:28 PM <tonynelson(a)georgeanelson.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce
<simo(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent
> responses. I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with
> all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc.
We have been doing that. The features touted for Discourse are automatic
and natural for email lists, and said to be poorly mimicked in Discourse.
You're missing the point of this thread - it's about the capabilities of a
tool to foster discussion
and communication between mulitiple people - it's not about cloning email
software.
2:59 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:34:45PM -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
You're missing the point of this thread - it's about the
capabilities
of a tool to foster discussion and communication between mulitiple
people - it's not about cloning email software.
What is "email software", if not a tool to foster discussion and
communication between multiple people?
- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
5:04 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wednesday, 17 October 2018 at 17:52, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 7:38 AM Anderson, Charles R
<cra(a)wpi.edu> wrote:
[...]
> It is
> also required to send semantically similar contents in both the
> text/plain and text/html parts, so that the text/plain part can act as
> a real human-readable alternative in the multipart/alternative message
> (i.e. it shouldn't set the text/plain part to be something like "Your
> email client doesn't support HTML. Please open this message in an
> HTML-capable client.")
>
> In my experience so far with the 3 messages I've received from
> Discourse in mailing-list mode, it doesn't send raw HTML in the
> text/plain attachment. It sends something that looks like BBcode:
Well, which is it? Rathann says html, you say bbcode?
I didn't say it was HTML, I only said it was mangled, but Charles is
right, it looks like BBcode, which doesn't really work in text mode.
The standard for quoting is prefixing each line of quoted text with
"> ". Highlighting that is implemented by default in mutt.
Regardless, as I mentioned above, if they have a bug, then it should
be reported for them to address.
I wouldn't call it a bug, just bad UX for a minority(?) target audience.
Mailing list mode has been out for several years now - seems to me
if
this were a pervasive issue with a published standardize solution,
they should take care of it.
I suspect the kind of people that would be bothered by Discourse's mailing
list mode deficiencies simply stop using it as soon as they find out how
bad it is for them. I don't blame them.
Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me.
That's why. Try mutt or another text-based client and you'll see the
difference.
And personally, I recommend against Gmail because it's known to accept
and silently drop some e-mail, which is against RFC5321 section 6.1.-6.2.
Regards,
--
Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
-- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
5:05 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Required disclosure: Mailman dev, and my sympathies are with the list
advocates for this channel both for that reason, and for more
objective ones. I don't really argue against a move to Discourse
here, but I do know a bit about the problem space, and I'd like to
discuss *some* aspects here. I expect it's clear which I prefer, but
there are a lot of arguments "for" that I don't deal with.
Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski writes:
>>>> Gerald B. Cox writes:
> Regardless, as I mentioned above, if they have a bug, then it
> should be reported for them to address.
I wouldn't call it a bug, just bad UX for a minority(?) target
audience.
I'm pretty sure the Discourse developers would concede that bad UX for
email users is undesirable. I'm *not* sure they would concede that
it's bad UX. We know how to render HTML to plain text, to RTF, and so
on; Discourse deliberately chose not to do so, but rather chose a
format of their own or perhaps some existing format (this is the first
I've heard of BBcode, so I can't judge).
Thus, I doubt that reporting an issue against Discourse's email
functionality would get action any time soon from the developers, and
might get a lot of pushback. Given that support from Red Hat/Fedora
community for Mailman development has decreased dramatically, I don't
see why they would want to pick up responsibility for patching up
Discourse instead. So I see years of annoyance for those who have
really effective email workflows, being constrained to Discourse's.
I suspect that the number of people who really want email is at least
as big as those who really want a forum, and they probably contribute
more code and admin (which are typically communication-intensive,
multicast activities), though forum-oriented users may contribute
greatly in other ways (user support has been mentioned, and I wouldn't
be surprised if that's easier both for the OP and responders in forum
format -- synchronous communication does a lot of work to avoid
redundancy, and editing out mistaken information is a real feature for
user support). And I suppose there are a lot of people in the middle
who don't care much either way (ignoring costs of moving to a new
channel, which are significant in the short run but not really in the
long run IMO), probably a majority.
Gerald's personal anecdotes suggest that people who are weakly
attached to the channel (jumping into threads in the middle, signing
up for their one issue, etc) are going to find the forum format more
convenient. I find his discussion persuasive on that, as I have no
problem with the forum format when I have a drive-by interest in some
channel. This is *not* a put-down, it's simply a statement that a
certain group of users would probably be happier with a forum.
(I'm not sure user support is a goal of this channel, but I've seen
many threads devoted to issues of system configuration that have zero
likelihood of inducing development of Fedora.)
> Mailing list mode has been out for several years now - seems to
> me if this were a pervasive issue with a published standardize
> solution, they should take care of it.
Email doesn't have a standardized solution or standardized format for
content. That's why people like HTML email -- it's a quasi-standard
mess that browsers and browser-derived messaging clients have huge
code bases for handling, and 25 years on have gotten pretty good at
it. Most clients' outgoing messages now are pretty close to HTML 5
conformant, but there's still a huge mismatch with "traditional" email
clients because email standards use a different mechanism from HTML
for embedding objects in the data stream. (That may not be a big
problem with Discourse depending on how it handles such media, and how
the lists are configured.)
The standards that have been referred to are SMTP (RFC 5321, which
basically requires that if you accept a connection at the TCP level,
you should say you're refusing to accept mail rather than dropping it
silently), the Internet message format (RFC 5322, which basically
defines email as an ASCII text stream divided into a header containing
various metadata and a body), and the Multimedia Mail Extensions
(MIME, with a plethora of RFCs starting with the 2045-2049 series)
which define ways to encode non-ASCII data (both text and non-text),
ways to include non-text data, and ways to mix various media, in a
message body. Among the latter is the multipart/alternative body part
(defined in RFC 2046, IIRC), which allows catering to various user
agents, and does require that the alternatives have as close to the
same semantics as the media make possible.
This provision of RFC 2046 is violated by a lot of HTML-oriented
clients, which embed attachments in the HTML where they can't easily
be accessed by non-HTML clients, or even provide a plain text
alternative that says "use an HTML client", rather than a plain text
version of the HTML content. I don't think that's a problem with
Discourse, but I don't understand why they wouldn't use the
traditional email conventions for quoted material in the body of a
text/plain part. The fact that they deliberately did something
different suggests that they think they know better than we do. :-(
To the extent that HTML email is the source of posts to Discourse,
there's not much that the software can do much about these differences
(without incorporating the huge body of code mentioned above). MIME
on the other hand can be handled with a reasonable amount of code.
I suspect the kind of people that would be bothered by
Discourse's
mailing list mode deficiencies simply stop using it as soon as they
find out how bad it is for them. I don't blame them.
I've heard reports of that in multiple communities now (this one,
Python, and Emacs, and gratuitously on Mailman lists[1]). That said,
while I think the great majority of list users would be at least
temporarily inconvenienced by a switch to forum software, those who
really care either way are likely to be minorities. My suspicion is
that those who really dislike the forum format contribute a lot more
to the community than those who really like it. It's anecdotal, but
in all cases where I've seen suggestions to convert MLs to forums, the
strongest proponents are people whose main current contribution to
discussion is to advocate a forum, while people who do a lot of
day-to-day work generally resist, some very strongly. Of course it's
possible that for proponents forums are so efficient that it's worth
dropping everything else to advocate them.
OT, but I can't resist.
> Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me.
Speak of bad UX for a minority audience, and GMail will be presented
as an example of perfectly fine. :-(
And personally, I recommend against Gmail because it's known to
accept and silently drop some e-mail, which is against RFC5321
section 6.1.-6.2.
I've talked to some people who should be in the know (via DMARC dev
channels) about that. They claim that they do it only for for
identified bad actors, where they're 99% sure it's spam and 99% sure
that an SMTP "administrative denial" will result in backscatter, as
the return path goes through, uh, less-than-diligent intermediate
MXes.
As a mailing list owner, I think that's reasonable, though a real
problem for the sender and receiver in the 0.01% of cases where they
get it wrong. They probably get it wrong thousands of times a day,
they process an awful lot of email.... OTOH, if some list's MTA gets
banned by Yahoo! or Microsoft for backscatter, that's often a couple
thousand emails per day that don't go through.
YMMV, of course. I'm just presenting the strongest argument I know
in favor of the practice. It's also evidence that it won't go away
(and I suspect other large freemail providers do the same).
Footnotes:
[1] It's off-topic, and we try to keep badmouthing alternative
paradigms to a minimum. ;-)
11:22 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:09 AM Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen(a)xemacs.org>
wrote:
Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski writes:
>>>>> Gerald B. Cox writes:
> > Regardless, as I mentioned above, if they have a bug, then it
> > should be reported for them to address.
>
> I wouldn't call it a bug, just bad UX for a minority(?) target
> audience.
I'm pretty sure the Discourse developers would concede that bad UX for
email users is undesirable. I'm *not* sure they would concede that
it's bad UX. We know how to render HTML to plain text, to RTF, and so
on; Discourse deliberately chose not to do so, but rather chose a
format of their own or perhaps some existing format (this is the first
I've heard of BBcode, so I can't judge).
It is not a format of their own, but it's not appropriate for plaintext, so
it sounds like a bug to me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBCode
-Dan
7:11 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Dan Book writes:
It is not a format of their own, but it's not appropriate for
plaintext, so it sounds like a bug to me.
But that's exactly my point. *We* think it's a bug, but *they* chose
it deliberately. Undoubtedly people have tools expecting it, etc.
I've been on both sides of that proposition, and the maintainers bat
about .900.
8:44 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 3:05 AM Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen(a)xemacs.org>
wrote:
Required disclosure: Mailman dev, and my sympathies are with the
list
advocates for this channel both for that reason, and for more
objective ones. I don't really argue against a move to Discourse
here, but I do know a bit about the problem space, and I'd like to
discuss *some* aspects here. I expect it's clear which I prefer, but
there are a lot of arguments "for" that I don't deal with.
Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski writes:
>>>>> Gerald B. Cox writes:
> > Regardless, as I mentioned above, if they have a bug, then it
> > should be reported for them to address.
>
> I wouldn't call it a bug, just bad UX for a minority(?) target
> audience.
I'm pretty sure the Discourse developers would concede that bad UX for
email users is undesirable. I'm *not* sure they would concede that
it's bad UX. We know how to render HTML to plain text, to RTF, and so
on; Discourse deliberately chose not to do so, but rather chose a
format of their own or perhaps some existing format (this is the first
I've heard of BBcode, so I can't judge).
Thus, I doubt that reporting an issue against Discourse's email
functionality would get action any time soon from the developers, and
might get a lot of pushback.
Thanks very much for your detailed reply. You summed it up pretty well.
As far as
the mailing list issue for some email clients I did find this over on the
Discourse support forum:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/plaintext-and-or-raw-emails-for-mailing-list...
Again, I'm far from being an email expert... I'm just a user of it - but
people who do have
the knowledge might want to take a look and see if this discussion reflects
some of their concerns
and possibly participate. I don't know if the situation could or could not
be improved... but it doesn't
hurt to ask.
11:28 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
>>>> "GBC" == Gerald B Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us>
writes:
GBC> Probably not fair to judge the system on the capabilities of your
GBC> email client.
It is entirely fair. Moving to this system will remove capabilities
that I have now and will not provide adequate replacements for them.
Since moving to this system will most likely result in my disconnection
from this portion of the project, I don't intend to ignore its faults.
GBC> That's fair... if your don't like to use a browser to access email.
GBC> You're entitled to your preferences and opinion - but many people
GBC> do like using browser based email.
I completely agree. And the nice thing about our existing mailing list
setup is that they can do that. And people who don't like using browser
based email don't have to. Because it's all just email, and we can all
access it and deal with it according to our own workflows.
Discourse simply enforces a workflow upon its users. Yes, there's a
"mailing list mode". It's not sufficient. Yes, there is some keyboard
navigation. It's not sufficient. I can fire up some browser addons to
try to make the page look like something I can use (and hope they don't
ever change their layout), but I can't add capabilities to it that it
doesn't have. And if I insist on sticking with email, I get a second
class experience.
So contrary to what you write above, I wouldn't be entitled to my
preferences, because discourse doesn't give me the opportunity to have
them. If I don't like my email client, I can change it. I can't change
the discourse system.
On project I used to follow quite a bit was the RT request tracker.
They moved to discourse some time ago. The end result was that email
became a mostly useless stream of context free messages and you
basically have to open a browser to follow a conversation. Offline?
Too bad. High latency connection? Too bad. I don't bother even
attempting to follow that project any longer.
I don't expect to sway anyone's opinion or that Fedora will keep mailing
lists around just for me. But in this push for some nebulous
"engagement" I believe there will also be disengagement, and that by
doing this Fedora itself is making a trade.
- J<
11:40 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 12:28 PM Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs(a)math.uh.edu>
wrote:
On project I used to follow quite a bit was the RT request tracker.
They moved to discourse some time ago. The end result was that email
became a mostly useless stream of context free messages and you
basically have to open a browser to follow a conversation. Offline?
Too bad. High latency connection? Too bad. I don't bother even
attempting to follow that project any longer.
I don't expect to sway anyone's opinion or that Fedora will keep mailing
lists around just for me. But in this push for some nebulous
"engagement" I believe there will also be disengagement, and that by
doing this Fedora itself is making a trade.
While I'm not a contributor to these lists, I do follow them
and have so for probably 20 years now. Like Jason, I have had
other projects move away from mailing lists, and that now means
I have to make a concious effort to 'poll' their system, rather
than having a push notification. Needless to say, I don't follow
them any more, and I don't know what's happening there.
Push means I find out whenever something happens.
If nothing happens... then that's OK with me, I'm not bothered.
But to be constantly polling for 'is there anything new... is there
anything new'
(whether there is or not), is just plain inefficient.
I hope that doesn't happen to Fedora too.
[Just my 2 cents worth.]
11:49 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:40 AM Fulko Hew <fulko.hew(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 12:28 PM Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs(a)math.uh.edu>
wrote:
While I'm not a contributor to these lists, I do follow them
and have so for probably 20 years now. Like Jason, I have had
other projects move away from mailing lists, and that now means
I have to make a concious effort to 'poll' their system, rather
than having a push notification. Needless to say, I don't follow
them any more, and I don't know what's happening there.
Push means I find out whenever something happens.
If nothing happens... then that's OK with me, I'm not bothered.
But to be constantly polling for 'is there anything new... is there
anything new'
(whether there is or not), is just plain inefficient.
I hope that doesn't happen to Fedora too.
[Just my 2 cents worth.]
Again, especially for a user of gmail, there is mailing list mode. People
keep
saying it isn't sufficient or it
doesn't work. I've been using it for 3 days and looks and acts like a
normal mailing list.
noon
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 09:49:49AM -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:40 AM Fulko Hew <fulko.hew(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 12:28 PM Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs(a)math.uh.edu>
> wrote:
>
> While I'm not a contributor to these lists, I do follow them
> and have so for probably 20 years now. Like Jason, I have had
> other projects move away from mailing lists, and that now means
> I have to make a concious effort to 'poll' their system, rather
> than having a push notification. Needless to say, I don't follow
> them any more, and I don't know what's happening there.
>
> Push means I find out whenever something happens.
> If nothing happens... then that's OK with me, I'm not bothered.
> But to be constantly polling for 'is there anything new... is there
> anything new'
> (whether there is or not), is just plain inefficient.
>
> I hope that doesn't happen to Fedora too.
>
> [Just my 2 cents worth.]
>
> Again, especially for a user of gmail, there is mailing list mode. People
keep saying it isn't sufficient or it
doesn't work. I've been using it for 3 days and looks and acts like a
normal mailing list.
How do I start a thread on Discourse from email? We should start this discussion over
there so we can experience it ourselves.
12:14 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 05:00:32PM +0000, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
How do I start a thread on Discourse from email? We should start
this
discussion over there so we can experience it ourselves.
So, yeah, that's a thing: we currently have that feature turned off, because
I'm worried about spam. So you can reply to threads, but not start them.
Discourse is *definitely* not a smooth, drop-in mailing list replacement
like Hyperkitty is.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
12:17 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 01:14:32PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 05:00:32PM +0000, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
> How do I start a thread on Discourse from email? We should start this
> discussion over there so we can experience it ourselves.
So, yeah, that's a thing: we currently have that feature turned off, because
I'm worried about spam. So you can reply to threads, but not start them.
Discourse is *definitely* not a smooth, drop-in mailing list replacement
like Hyperkitty is.
Well then, that's a showstopper for me. I was honestly ready to give it a try.
12:27 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:15 AM Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 05:00:32PM +0000, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
> How do I start a thread on Discourse from email? We should start this
> discussion over there so we can experience it ourselves.
So, yeah, that's a thing: we currently have that feature turned off,
because
I'm worried about spam. So you can reply to threads, but not start them.
Matt, would probably be a good idea to turn that on so people could try it
out.
People can also try it out at the following sites:
discourse.mozilla.org
meta.discourse.org
There are countless others, just do a search.
Discourse is *definitely* not a smooth, drop-in mailing list
replacement
like Hyperkitty is.
Of course it's not identical to a what we have now... that is kind of the
point. However, from what
I have seen the mailing list mode is a good compromise for those who want
to continue that mode
of communication.
I would submit bug reports if I had a problem with the features or
capabilities of mailing list mode -
however, for me it works perfectly. I would encourage those who aren't
happy with it to take a few
moments to follow up with the discourse people to either file a bug or
request an enhancement. It
is to everyone's best interest to help to improve the product.
12:39 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 1:28 PM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:15 AM Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 05:00:32PM +0000, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
> > How do I start a thread on Discourse from email? We should start this
> > discussion over there so we can experience it ourselves.
>
> So, yeah, that's a thing: we currently have that feature turned off, because
> I'm worried about spam. So you can reply to threads, but not start them.
Matt, would probably be a good idea to turn that on so people could try it out.
People can also try it out at the following sites:
discourse.mozilla.org
meta.discourse.org
There are countless others, just do a search.
>
> Discourse is *definitely* not a smooth, drop-in mailing list replacement
> like Hyperkitty is.
Of course it's not identical to a what we have now... that is kind of the point.
However, from what
I have seen the mailing list mode is a good compromise for those who want to continue
that mode
of communication.
I would submit bug reports if I had a problem with the features or capabilities of
mailing list mode -
however, for me it works perfectly. I would encourage those who aren't happy with it
to take a few
moments to follow up with the discourse people to either file a bug or request an
enhancement. It
is to everyone's best interest to help to improve the product.
The thing is, it doesn't matter. Discourse is *not* designed to
support the types of discussions that do happen on these lists, nor is
it designed to handle the load or the number of disparate
conversations. I've experienced the switchover from mail lists to
Discourse before with OpenMandriva, and asynchronous development
discussions basically died. The OpenMandriva developers (myself
included) rely on IRC and IRC meetings even more so than we did
before, because Discourse is just awful for this. And OpenMandriva is
a hundredth of the scale of Fedora development list.
I cannot *ever* recommend, in good conscious, moving to Discourse for
Fedora development discussions.
However, I think it's fantastic for user support, as those are much
more context free, incidental, and so on. I've wished for a long time
that we'd integrate fedoraforum.org into the main Fedora Project, but
we never did that...
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
12:48 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
The thing is, it doesn't matter. Discourse is *not* designed to
support the types of discussions that do happen on these lists, nor
is
it designed to handle the load or the number of disparate
conversations.
I've experienced the switchover from mail lists to
Discourse before with OpenMandriva, and asynchronous development
discussions basically died. The OpenMandriva developers (myself
included) rely on IRC and IRC meetings even more so than we did
before, because Discourse is just awful for this. And OpenMandriva is
a hundredth of the scale of Fedora development list.
Can you please articulate that difference? As far as traffic is concerned,
that was
addressed earlier in the thread and I don't see how that is an issue.
1:03 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:48 AM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
The thing is, it doesn't matter. Discourse is *not* designed to
> support the types of discussions that do happen on these lists, nor is
> it designed to handle the load or the number of disparate
> conversations.
I've experienced the switchover from mail lists to
> Discourse before with OpenMandriva, and asynchronous development
> discussions basically died. The OpenMandriva developers (myself
> included) rely on IRC and IRC meetings even more so than we did
> before, because Discourse is just awful for this. And OpenMandriva is
> a hundredth of the scale of Fedora development list.
>
Can you please articulate that difference? As far as traffic is
concerned, that was
addressed earlier in the thread and I don't see how that is an issue.
>
>
Here is also a good link:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298
7:32 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 01:39:30PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
I cannot *ever* recommend, in good conscious, moving to Discourse
for
Fedora development discussions.
However, I think it's fantastic for user support, as those are much
more context free, incidental, and so on. I've wished for a long time
Yeah, I'm not suggesting moving all development discussion there, although
I think there are people who *do* want to do development discussion that
way, and I wouldn't want to _block_ that.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
8:31 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 5:33 AM Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 01:39:30PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
> I cannot *ever* recommend, in good conscious, moving to Discourse for
> Fedora development discussions.
>
> However, I think it's fantastic for user support, as those are much
> more context free, incidental, and so on. I've wished for a long time
Yeah, I'm not suggesting moving all development discussion there, although
I think there are people who *do* want to do development discussion that
way, and I wouldn't want to _block_ that.
Actually, I think that just creating a new discourse instance for
discussions keeping the mailing
lists around would be a good solution. You wouldn't have to worry about
registration. People who wanted
to use it or try it out could do that themselves - and you wouldn't have to
be concerned about moving archives,
etc. You could then just let normal attrition handle it.
2:39 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/18/18 6:31 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 5:33 AM Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 01:39:30PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
>> I cannot *ever* recommend, in good conscious, moving to Discourse for
>> Fedora development discussions.
>>
>> However, I think it's fantastic for user support, as those are much
>> more context free, incidental, and so on. I've wished for a long time
>
> Yeah, I'm not suggesting moving all development discussion there, although
> I think there are people who *do* want to do development discussion that
> way, and I wouldn't want to _block_ that.
>
Actually, I think that just creating a new discourse instance for
discussions keeping the mailing
lists around would be a good solution. You wouldn't have to worry about
registration. People who wanted
to use it or try it out could do that themselves - and you wouldn't have to
be concerned about moving archives,
etc. You could then just let normal attrition handle it.
Sure, but it might be not a great experience if not enough people watch
both or move to discourse. ie, people asking questions there or starting
discussions and no one answering them.
So, if people want to discuss in discourse, great, but I don't think we
should create a vast sea of empty topics until/unless people are needing
them.
kevin
3:10 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:40 PM Kevin Fenzi <kevin(a)scrye.com> wrote:
On 10/18/18 6:31 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> Actually, I think that just creating a new discourse instance for
> discussions keeping the mailing
> lists around would be a good solution. You wouldn't have to worry about
> registration. People who wanted
> to use it or try it out could do that themselves - and you wouldn't have
to
> be concerned about moving archives,
> etc. You could then just let normal attrition handle it.
Sure, but it might be not a great experience if not enough people watch
both or move to discourse. ie, people asking questions there or starting
discussions and no one answering them.
So, if people want to discuss in discourse, great, but I don't think we
should create a vast sea of empty topics until/unless people are needing
them.
Yeah, it's kind of a chicken / egg situation - you're not going to know
until you
throw something out there and let people give it a whirl and determine how
it
works for them in a real world situation - not some lab mockup.
The Foreman results that Matt posted earlier appeared to indicate it
would be worthwhile to try.
3:10 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
* Gerald B. Cox [18/10/2018 06:31] :
Actually, I think that just creating a new discourse instance for
discussions keeping the mailing lists around would be a good solution.
The way I read this, it implies we would fragment developement disccusion
in two, the people using mailing lists on one side and the people using
discourse on the other.
Whatever is decided, I hope this does not happen.
Emmanuel
1:35 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 13:14 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 05:00:32PM +0000, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
> How do I start a thread on Discourse from email? We should start this
> discussion over there so we can experience it ourselves.
So, yeah, that's a thing: we currently have that feature turned off, because
I'm worried about spam. So you can reply to threads, but not start them.
Discourse is *definitely* not a smooth, drop-in mailing list replacement
like Hyperkitty is.
I am trying to understand what is the goal of moving development
discussions to Discourse in this case.
<a little snarky>Is it to deter busy people from participating in the
hopes of some fleeting engagement by superficially interested people
will fill the void ?</>
Simo.
--
Simo Sorce
Sr. Principal Software Engineer
Red Hat, Inc
3:14 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 13:14 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
Discourse is *definitely* not a smooth, drop-in mailing list
replacement
like Hyperkitty is.
I'm curious what is insufficient about Hyperkitty that Discourse does
well at. Wasn't Hyperkitty supposed to give people the forum
experience? I admit I haven't used it that much for reading or posting
(though I do use it for archive links sometimes and it seems fine for
that), since I really like the e-mail interface, so I am not familiar
with how nice or un-nice it is to use.
4:04 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 1:15 PM Randy Barlow <bowlofeggs(a)fedoraproject.org>
wrote:
On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 13:14 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> Discourse is *definitely* not a smooth, drop-in mailing list
> replacement
> like Hyperkitty is.
I'm curious what is insufficient about Hyperkitty that Discourse does
well at. Wasn't Hyperkitty supposed to give people the forum
experience? I admit I haven't used it that much for reading or posting
(though I do use it for archive links sometimes and it seems fine for
that), since I really like the e-mail interface, so I am not familiar
with how nice or un-nice it is to use.
Here is a link to discourse features:
https://www.discourse.org/features
I view hyperkitty as just a web interface for mailing lists - not much more
than that.
Discourse provides a more complete conversation / collaboration
environment. If you
take a look at the features page, you'll see it offers some nice
capabilities.
I wouldn't expect it to be a "drop-in" mailing list replacement. Yes, it
allows some
backward compatibility by providing "mailing-list mode" - but you're going
to get a richer
experience if you use native interfaces.
8:10 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, 2018-10-18 at 14:04 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
Here is a link to discourse features:
https://www.discourse.org/features
I view hyperkitty as just a web interface for mailing lists - not
much more
than that.
Discourse provides a more complete conversation / collaboration
environment. If you
take a look at the features page, you'll see it offers some nice
capabilities.
Reading that page, I don't see a lot that seems substantially different
from hyperkitty to me. Can you highlight what in particular you view as
a valuable difference? What is lacking about Hyperkitty?
8:35 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 9:11 PM Randy Barlow
<bowlofeggs(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Thu, 2018-10-18 at 14:04 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> Here is a link to discourse features:
> https://www.discourse.org/features
>
> I view hyperkitty as just a web interface for mailing lists - not
> much more
> than that.
> Discourse provides a more complete conversation / collaboration
> environment. If you
> take a look at the features page, you'll see it offers some nice
> capabilities.
Reading that page, I don't see a lot that seems substantially different
from hyperkitty to me. Can you highlight what in particular you view as
a valuable difference? What is lacking about Hyperkitty?
(CC'd Mairin Duffy, as she's probably the right person to give the
feedback to, and could respond appropriately to my comments)
In my opinion, there's only a few things needed to make HyperKitty excel:
* Notifications hub for unread threads and such. For people who'd
rather use HyperKitty to interface with the list, there needs to be a
way to track threads and topics that you've participated in or are
watching.
* HyperKitty completely lacks a means of handling rich content. Some
people may not agree with me on this, but having *zero* formatting
sucks. Supporting at least Markdown (probably with CommonMark
specification?) would be a major improvement.
* There *needs* to be a flat view option. A lot of people don't
realize this, but the reason why threaded views aren't normal in web
forums is because they're absolutely awful for deep threads. The only
reason it works in email is because email clients are usually too dumb
to represent them accurately.
* Topic splits aren't rendered as separate conversations to follow,
which makes it difficult to understand what's happening because per
the thing about threaded views, it gets really weird and awkward to
follow multiple conversations spawned from the same mail.
A nice to have would be a better visual style that's more responsive,
exciting, and cleaner looking, but that's a matter of taste. I'm not
much of a fan of the current era of Fedora web styles, as it feels
like the life is sucked out of the site and it's just _boring_...
Heck, I think the current Koji web style is more exciting than the
current Bodhi and HyperKitty ones...
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
10:43 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
I'm open to all of those suggestions as well as committing to design and CSS work for
them. I would need a web dev to help me though; I'm not great with Django.
Please note, the reason Hyperkitty didn't cause this sort of thread or honestly any
sort of drama or controversy when it was deployed is because it required no current users
to change anything about their workflow, with one small exception - mm3 didn't come
out w topic support which was used on the packagers list. (I don't believe that's
an issue anymore.)
The whole point of the design was to enable a new group of would be contributors be able
to participate alongside the folks already there, so that everyone could participate
together. Existing ML users never need to use Hyperkitty if they don't want to, and
yet, users new to the project can start reading and participating in threads right away w
no mail client config and never receiving a single email if they so desire.
I believe quite strongly (and have from the start when I first heard of the project) that
Discourse's basic UX model is fundamentally flawed. If we deploy discourse and roll it
out, we *may* get new users, but as noted in this thread, we will lose existing ones.
Participating in upstream effort on Discourse, improving it, etc is foolish bc the
fundamental model is broken.
When some people think of email, they think of mutt or thunderbird, annoying client
config, setting up procmail or fetchmail or whatever other complex elaborate tools many of
the ppl reading this use. Email is just a basic standard. Discourse does not follow that
standard. There is no reason a social media timeline like experience for the teenagers is
not possible using email as the underlying system. Jabber never really took off, except
Google Hangouts and FB messenger both used it (no idea if they still do.) The reason our
open standards like email and xmpp are dying off is bc the primary biz model of the
companies that used them relies on getting eyes on ads, and scanning content in ways that
mean giving users a choice of client that works best for their needs is off the table.
Basically dont confuse the front end youre used to with the underlying tech.
I think it's a better idea to use a tool based on open standards, that allows users to
use the client experience that works best for them. If you try to force everyone down one
road it won't work.
~m
2:42 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Hi, Máirín.
On Friday, 19 October 2018 at 05:43, Máirín Duffy wrote:
[...]
I believe quite strongly (and have from the start when I first heard
of the project) that Discourse's basic UX model is fundamentally
flawed. If we deploy discourse and roll it out, we *may* get new
users, but as noted in this thread, we will lose existing ones.
Participating in upstream effort on Discourse, improving it, etc is
foolish bc the fundamental model is broken.
Agreed. Well said.
[...]
There is no reason a social media timeline like experience for the
teenagers is not possible using email as the underlying system. Jabber
never really took off, except Google Hangouts and FB messenger both
used it (no idea if they still do.)
They used to, but no longer. Both have (d)evolved into their own
proprietary protocols. For FB, there's a plugin for pidgin/libpurple
that actually works quite well (purple-facebook package).
[...]
I think it's a better idea to use a tool based on open standards,
that
allows users to use the client experience that works best for them. If
you try to force everyone down one road it won't work.
I fully agree.
If the company behind Discourse goes away for some reason and the
project is not picked up by community, we'll end up having to support it
ourselves and I don't think we have resources for this.
I don't think e-mail is going away anytime soon.
Regards,
Dominik
--
Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
-- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
3:34 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, 2018-10-19 at 03:43 +0000, Máirín Duffy wrote:
I'm open to all of those suggestions as well as committing to
design and CSS work for them. I would need a web dev to help me though; I'm not great
with Django.
Please note, the reason Hyperkitty didn't cause this sort of thread or honestly any
sort of drama or controversy when it was deployed is because it required no current users
to change anything about their workflow, with one small exception - mm3 didn't come
out w topic support which was used on the packagers list. (I don't believe that's
an issue anymore.)
The whole point of the design was to enable a new group of would be contributors be able
to participate alongside the folks already there, so that everyone could participate
together. Existing ML users never need to use Hyperkitty if they don't want to, and
yet, users new to the project can start reading and participating in threads right away w
no mail client config and never receiving a single email if they so desire.
I believe quite strongly (and have from the start when I first heard of the project) that
Discourse's basic UX model is fundamentally flawed. If we deploy discourse and roll it
out, we *may* get new users, but as noted in this thread, we will lose existing ones.
Participating in upstream effort on Discourse, improving it, etc is foolish bc the
fundamental model is broken.
When some people think of email, they think of mutt or thunderbird, annoying client
config, setting up procmail or fetchmail or whatever other complex elaborate tools many of
the ppl reading this use. Email is just a basic standard. Discourse does not follow that
standard. There is no reason a social media timeline like experience for the teenagers is
not possible using email as the underlying system. Jabber never really took off, except
Google Hangouts and FB messenger both used it (no idea if they still do.) The reason our
open standards like email and xmpp are dying off is bc the primary biz model of the
companies that used them relies on getting eyes on ads, and scanning content in ways that
mean giving users a choice of client that works best for their needs is off the table.
Can we be careful with association of timelines with teenagers here? It's a tiny bit
belittling, and makes us all sound old and out of touch, since my parents (who are
obviously older than me) know what they are. I've been using Linux exclusively on the
desktop for a bit over 15 years, so you can guess I'm not a teen.
Basically dont confuse the front end youre used to with the
underlying tech.
I think it's a better idea to use a tool based on open standards,
that allows users to use the client experience that works best for
them. If you try to force everyone down one road it won't work.
~m
_______________________________________________
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devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
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5:15 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Re: teenagers and timelines, I'm just addressing the specific concerns that were
raised to me.
~m
4:31 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Máirín,
On 2018-10-19 14:43, Máirín Duffy wrote:
I'm open to all of those suggestions as well as committing to
design
and CSS work for them. I would need a web dev to help me though; I'm
not great with Django.
Please note, the reason Hyperkitty didn't cause this sort of thread or
honestly any sort of drama or controversy when it was deployed is
because it required no current users to change anything about their
workflow, with one small exception - mm3 didn't come out w topic
support which was used on the packagers list. (I don't believe that's
an issue anymore.)
The whole point of the design was to enable a new group of would be
contributors be able to participate alongside the folks already there,
so that everyone could participate together. Existing ML users never
need to use Hyperkitty if they don't want to, and yet, users new to
the project can start reading and participating in threads right away
w no mail client config and never receiving a single email if they so
desire.
I believe quite strongly (and have from the start when I first heard
of the project) that Discourse's basic UX model is fundamentally
flawed. If we deploy discourse and roll it out, we *may* get new
users, but as noted in this thread, we will lose existing ones.
Participating in upstream effort on Discourse, improving it, etc is
foolish bc the fundamental model is broken.
When some people think of email, they think of mutt or thunderbird,
annoying client config, setting up procmail or fetchmail or whatever
other complex elaborate tools many of the ppl reading this use. Email
is just a basic standard. Discourse does not follow that standard.
There is no reason a social media timeline like experience for the
teenagers is not possible using email as the underlying system. Jabber
never really took off, except Google Hangouts and FB messenger both
used it (no idea if they still do.) The reason our open standards like
email and xmpp are dying off is bc the primary biz model of the
companies that used them relies on getting eyes on ads, and scanning
content in ways that mean giving users a choice of client that works
best for their needs is off the table.
Basically dont confuse the front end youre used to with the underlying
tech.
I think it's a better idea to use a tool based on open standards, that
allows users to use the client experience that works best for them. If
you try to force everyone down one road it won't work.
A nice, informed response!
Thanks,
Phil.
--
Philip Rhoades
PO Box 896
Cowra NSW 2794
Australia
E-mail: phil(a)pricom.com.au
8:15 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Again, I believe some are trying to do an apples to apples comparison with
Discourse and mailing list technologies. Discourse was build from the
ground up with the goal of fostering communication and collaboration.
Hyperkitty is a bolt on HTML to mailing list archives. It's good for what
it is, but it isn't Discourse - and usage numbers tend to bear that out.
The fact is that email usage is declining. People are moving away from it
and prefer to use other platforms for collaboration. As with many
things... when something new comes out, there are a group of people who
push back and want things to stay as they are - history has proven time and
time again, that change is inevitable. If something new is the better
solution, as people become aware of it and use it - it will become the go
to solution. The examples are endless and span multiple disciplines.
Fedora has a long history of supporting new and innovative solutions and
toolsets. That is what helps differentiate us as a distribution. We need
a tool that will encourage more participation. I believe Discourse will
help with this - people will discover new and more efficient ways to do
their work and the sun will rise the next day.
8:43 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:16 AM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
Again, I believe some are trying to do an apples to apples comparison with Discourse and
mailing list technologies. Discourse was build from the ground up with the goal of
fostering communication and collaboration. Hyperkitty is a bolt on HTML to mailing list
archives. It's good for what it is, but it isn't Discourse - and usage numbers
tend to bear that out.
That's an unfair characterization. HyperKitty was designed from the
ground up with that goal in mind too. The _sole_ difference is the
backend approach. Discourse uses a database system while HyperKitty
uses a mail list engine.
You know why the usage numbers bear that out? Because the upgrade to
HyperKitty was mishandled and delayed over and over. We were screwed
over by the fact that our infrastructure doesn't run on Fedora, so
that made it harder to get it working. The initial deployment was very
slow and unoptimized. Bugs in the UI remained unfixed in Fedora's
installation even though upstream fixed them. I would not be surprised
if upstream ignores us because we don't seem to be upgrading.
The development process for HyperKitty basically stalled out because
migrations were impossible from Mailman 2 to Mailman 3 for a *very*
long time. Fedora somehow did it, and that seemed to have not gone
back upstream, so until *very recently*, upstream did not recommend
doing mm2 to mm3 upgrades.
That *completely* handicapped adoption of HyperKitty, because
HyperKitty requires Mailman 3. What's worse, because it's almost
impossible to run on RHEL due to the lack of Python 3 (which continues
to anger and frustrate me), Red Hat never migrated their mailing
lists. Red Hat's lists are one of the larger installations, and it was
a real blow to not have that migrate.
The irony that I can probably get SUSE to deploy Mailman 3 and
HyperKitty before Red Hat will is not lost on me.
The fact is that email usage is declining. People are moving away
from it and prefer to use other platforms for collaboration. As with many things... when
something new comes out, there are a group of people who push back and want things to stay
as they are - history has proven time and time again, that change is inevitable. If
something new is the better solution, as people become aware of it and use it - it will
become the go to solution. The examples are endless and span multiple disciplines.
You know what? I bounce back and forth between HyperKitty and my email
client. If all the lists I subscribed to used HyperKitty, I wouldn't
be using my email client at all. While I don't generally reply from
HK, it's mainly because of bugs that I know are fixed in newer
versions.
We have not taken good care of our mail list infrastructure. I don't
blame our infra team. I blame the fact our infra runs on RHEL, and
RHEL has handicapped us in so many ways because of their own choices.
Fedora can't control its own (infrastructure) destiny because we have
no power to influence RHEL at all. And that's broken.
Fedora has a long history of supporting new and innovative solutions
and toolsets. That is what helps differentiate us as a distribution. We need a tool that
will encourage more participation. I believe Discourse will help with this - people will
discover new and more efficient ways to do their work and the sun will rise the next day.
And yet, for 15 years, Fedora didn't have a web forum for user
support. People have asked for it over the years, and Fedora refused.
That's why things like FedoraForum.org exist instead of being part of
Fedora itself.
I'm a guy who started with web forums who later used email lists, not
the other way around. I vastly prefer forum-style environments. I
still don't like Discourse for this kind of stuff, because it's just
not designed for handling contextual conversations.
And there are problems with Discourse too: doing partial quoting with
attribution is annoying and requires editing the quote to restore that
information. In addition, searching for posts and topics becomes
exponentially slower as the system handles more content, which is a
huge problem if you're trying to find information to cross reference.
It's also bad for archiving, since threads are inherently unstable.
Conversation splitting and merging is very awkward (as I've observed
in the Snapcraft Discourse). I can keep going, but it doesn't matter,
because you're dead set on this anyway.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
8:55 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 09:43:48AM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
That *completely* handicapped adoption of HyperKitty, because
HyperKitty requires Mailman 3. What's worse, because it's almost
impossible to run on RHEL due to the lack of Python 3 (which continues
to anger and frustrate me), Red Hat never migrated their mailing
lists. Red Hat's lists are one of the larger installations, and it was
a real blow to not have that migrate.
I don't know why Red Hat's mailman impl isn't upgraded, but it is
not blocked by lack of Python 3 on RHEL.
Red Hat Software Collections have been providing Python 3.x versions
that run on RHEL since ~2013. They exist as add-on yum repos, rather
than part of the base since they have a different support lifecycle
and to avoid interfering with the system python binary which is
depended on by many other apps/tools
https://access.redhat.com/solutions/472793
https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/rhscl
Regards,
Daniel
--
|: https://berrange.com -o- https://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange :|
|: https://libvirt.org -o- https://fstop138.berrange.com :|
|: https://entangle-photo.org -o- https://www.instagram.com/dberrange :|
9:21 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Le vendredi 19 octobre 2018 à 14:55 +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé a écrit :
I don't know why Red Hat's mailman impl isn't upgraded, but it is
not blocked by lack of Python 3 on RHEL.
Red Hat Software Collections have been providing Python 3.x versions
that run on RHEL since ~2013. They exist as add-on yum repos,
Well that's another thing 200% broken in the current Fedora RHEL
universe (and I speak both with my Fedora contributor hat, and as
someone who was tasked with procuring RHEL systems in a fortune xxx
company not so long ago).
The whole "but it's in an optional RHEL repo" just kills *any* form
RHEL/Fedora symbiosis.
No one but RH knows what ends up in what optional repo for what reason,
they're ignored by Centos, it's completely impossible to push anything a
tad complex from Fedora to EPEL because it will depend on things RH
stashed away in an optional repo centos does not rebuild, and you're
forbidden to put a copy in EPEL because it may collide with the optional
repos, and so on.
That's how we end up with the hilarious situation where the Go EPEL6
stack is both newer and more complete than the Go EPEL7 stack because RH
vacuumed some Go packages in an optional EL7 repo and now it's
impossible to do anything Go-related in EPEL7.
I'm sure the RH marketoïds *love* the optional repos, it's segmentation
market 101, but concretely? They're the kiss of death for anything in
Fedora that has enterprise applications, because almost no one is going
to bother contributing things in Fedora, that he needs enterprise-side,
if the result has zero chance of ending up in EPEL.
The end result is that no one but RH contributes to EL optional repos,
and no one who is working on RH EL7 repos has the slightest interest in
integrating with Fedora since they do not see any stream of EPEL Fedora
contributions.
Or, you end up deploying enterprise systems with your own private
rebuild of Fedora packages for EL, and you know what? At this point the
bean counters just ask “why are we paying $$$ to RH again, I see you
spend your time rebuilding Fedora packages, can't you use Debian if the
EL part of RHEL is useless?”
Regards,
--
Nicolas Mailhot
9:28 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
And if this conversation were in Discourse, we could simply move it to a
new topic.... ;-)
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:21 AM Nicolas Mailhot <nicolas.mailhot(a)laposte.net>
wrote:
Le vendredi 19 octobre 2018 à 14:55 +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé a écrit
:
>
> I don't know why Red Hat's mailman impl isn't upgraded, but it is
> not blocked by lack of Python 3 on RHEL.
>
> Red Hat Software Collections have been providing Python 3.x versions
> that run on RHEL since ~2013. They exist as add-on yum repos,
Well that's another thing 200% broken in the current Fedora RHEL
universe (and I speak both with my Fedora contributor hat, and as
someone who was tasked with procuring RHEL systems in a fortune xxx
company not so long ago).
The whole "but it's in an optional RHEL repo" just kills *any* form
RHEL/Fedora symbiosis.
No one but RH knows what ends up in what optional repo for what reason,
they're ignored by Centos, it's completely impossible to push anything a
tad complex from Fedora to EPEL because it will depend on things RH
stashed away in an optional repo centos does not rebuild, and you're
forbidden to put a copy in EPEL because it may collide with the optional
repos, and so on.
That's how we end up with the hilarious situation where the Go EPEL6
stack is both newer and more complete than the Go EPEL7 stack because RH
vacuumed some Go packages in an optional EL7 repo and now it's
impossible to do anything Go-related in EPEL7.
I'm sure the RH marketoïds *love* the optional repos, it's segmentation
market 101, but concretely? They're the kiss of death for anything in
Fedora that has enterprise applications, because almost no one is going
to bother contributing things in Fedora, that he needs enterprise-side,
if the result has zero chance of ending up in EPEL.
The end result is that no one but RH contributes to EL optional repos,
and no one who is working on RH EL7 repos has the slightest interest in
integrating with Fedora since they do not see any stream of EPEL Fedora
contributions.
Or, you end up deploying enterprise systems with your own private
rebuild of Fedora packages for EL, and you know what? At this point the
bean counters just ask “why are we paying $$$ to RH again, I see you
spend your time rebuilding Fedora packages, can't you use Debian if the
EL part of RHEL is useless?”
Regards,
--
Nicolas Mailhot
_______________________________________________
devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
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9:42 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Le vendredi 19 octobre 2018 à 07:28 -0700, Gerald B. Cox a écrit :
And if this conversation were in Discourse, we could simply move it
to
a new topic.... ;-)
And if it where is discourse I would’t participate in it.
Basically, as others said, not interested in shiny tech that has no
notion of interop, has a single implementation, and a shelf life of a
couple years.
There's a reason every single web site out there quietly drops the shiny
things bit to fall back on email and sms as soon as it manipulates
anything $$$ related. email and sms are an ugly but reliable and
standard way to reach anyone. The native web forums are just ephemeral
eye-cather mutually incompatible things designed make you read ads (as
Mairin explained better than me).
Now, it it were packaged in Fedora, and deployed on Fedora infra,
without any magic call to a third party website, that would be something
else. Wouldn't change the probability upstream would give up on it as
soon as it was not shiny and cool anymore, but at least I and Fedora
would not totally depend on them for our data.
--
Nicolas Mailhot
9:54 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:43 AM Nicolas Mailhot <nicolas.mailhot(a)laposte.net>
wrote:
Le vendredi 19 octobre 2018 à 07:28 -0700, Gerald B. Cox a écrit :
> And if this conversation were in Discourse, we could simply move it to
> a new topic.... ;-)
And if it where is discourse I would’t participate in it.
Basically, as others said, not interested in shiny tech that has no
notion of interop, has a single implementation, and a shelf life of a
couple years.
There's a reason every single web site out there quietly drops the shiny
things bit to fall back on email and sms as soon as it manipulates
anything $$$ related. email and sms are an ugly but reliable and
standard way to reach anyone. The native web forums are just ephemeral
eye-cather mutually incompatible things designed make you read ads (as
Mairin explained better than me).
Now, it it were packaged in Fedora, and deployed on Fedora infra,
without any magic call to a third party website, that would be something
else. Wouldn't change the probability upstream would give up on it as
soon as it was not shiny and cool anymore, but at least I and Fedora
would not totally depend on them for our data.
You really should try it, you might like it. BTW, there are no ads in the
Fedora Discourse instance, so
not sure what you are talking about there. As far as email is concerned
the trends are clear... just do a
web search.
10:20 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Le vendredi 19 octobre 2018 à 07:54 -0700, Gerald B. Cox a écrit :
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:43 AM Nicolas Mailhot <
You really should try it, you might like it. BTW, there are no ads in
the Fedora Discourse instance, so
not sure what you are talking about there. As far as email is
concerned the trends are clear... just do a
web search.
Ah yes, the advertising industry, that created the web forum bubble and
its social media derivative, publishes report after report they're the
thing and no one is using mail any more, so you can safely invest even
more money advertising on web forums and social media.
In the meanwhile? Websites still use mail. People who do work still use
mail. Anyone who needs to publish anything he wants to be able to find
some years later still uses mail, or simple websites. Even so-called
millenials move to mail, as soon as they need to fill taxes, or anything
else that requires tracking things for years, and they notice the hard
way the transient nature of web forums and social media (transient
*except* for the extracted personal data).
--
Nicolas Mailhot
11:45 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, 2018-10-19 at 07:28 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
And if this conversation were in Discourse, we could simply move it
to a
new topic.... ;-)
Some people see it as history rewriting ... one of the reasons I like
email is that *you* can't change stuff after the fact, because *I* have
it archived.
Simo.
--
Simo Sorce
Sr. Principal Software Engineer
Red Hat, Inc
9:03 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 6:45 AM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:16 AM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us>
wrote:
>
> Again, I believe some are trying to do an apples to apples comparison
with Discourse and mailing list technologies. Discourse was build from the
ground up with the goal of fostering communication and collaboration.
Hyperkitty is a bolt on HTML to mailing list archives. It's good for what
it is, but it isn't Discourse - and usage numbers tend to bear that out.
>
That's an unfair characterization. HyperKitty was designed from the
ground up with that goal in mind too. The _sole_ difference is the
backend approach. Discourse uses a database system while HyperKitty
uses a mail list engine.
if you think the "sole" difference between HyperKitty and Discourse is the
backend approach
you're not looking very hard. It's quite apparent just by looking at it.
If yperKitty's design goals
are the exact same as Discourse they hid it pretty well in their online
documentation.
You know why the usage numbers bear that out? Because the upgrade to
HyperKitty was mishandled and delayed over and over. We were screwed
over by the fact that our infrastructure doesn't run on Fedora, so
that made it harder to get it working. The initial deployment was very
slow and unoptimized. Bugs in the UI remained unfixed in Fedora's
installation even though upstream fixed them. I would not be surprised
if upstream ignores us because we don't seem to be upgrading.
I don't agree with that being the reason - I believe it is the design
approach and goals - but
even if that were true - that ship has sailed.
The development process for HyperKitty basically stalled out because
migrations were impossible from Mailman 2 to Mailman 3 for a *very*
long time. Fedora somehow did it, and that seemed to have not gone
back upstream, so until *very recently*, upstream did not recommend
doing mm2 to mm3 upgrades.
This thread isn't about making excuses for Hyperkitty - it's about
Discourse.
6:52 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 19/10/18 07:03 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 6:45 AM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:16 AM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
> >
> > Again, I believe some are trying to do an apples to apples comparison
> with Discourse and mailing list technologies. Discourse was build from the
> ground up with the goal of fostering communication and collaboration.
> Hyperkitty is a bolt on HTML to mailing list archives. It's good for what
> it is, but it isn't Discourse - and usage numbers tend to bear that out.
> >
>
> That's an unfair characterization. HyperKitty was designed from the
> ground up with that goal in mind too. The _sole_ difference is the
> backend approach. Discourse uses a database system while HyperKitty
> uses a mail list engine.
>
> if you think the "sole" difference between HyperKitty and Discourse is the
backend approach
you're not looking very hard. It's quite apparent just by looking at it.
If yperKitty's design goals
are the exact same as Discourse they hid it pretty well in their online
documentation.
The one benefit that Discourse might offer to me is that Gerald's
replies might use quoting properly :-P
(Yes, I know this is a problem with the text/plain part generated by
Gmail's web UI, which can be worked around by just adding a blank line
between the quoted text and the reply).
9:10 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 09:43:48AM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
It's also bad for archiving, since threads are inherently
unstable.
Conversation splitting and merging is very awkward (as I've observed
in the Snapcraft Discourse). I can keep going, but it doesn't matter,
because you're dead set on this anyway.
I ... don't know how to engage constructively with this accusation, because
it it seems to come from absolutely nowhere. Yes, we're *definitely* trying
out Discourse. That's not a conspiracy — it's live! We're also trying out
HyperKitty. It's live too! We try stuff!
The rest of everything — development resources, infrastructure, whether
there is widespread adoption — that's not something arguing over will
change. When we can *see* something is not working, we can't just complain
that those are unfair. we should try something else.
But the comments from several people implying some sort of fait accompli
here, that some backroom decision has been made, that we're somehow trying
to destroy communication.... seriously?
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
9:38 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 10:10:22AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
I ... don't know how to engage constructively with this
accusation, because
it it seems to come from absolutely nowhere. Yes, we're *definitely* trying
out Discourse. That's not a conspiracy — it's live! We're also trying out
HyperKitty. It's live too! We try stuff!
Can you please turn on the ability to create new threads via
email/mailing list mode in Discourse?
Thank you.
9:40 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 10:11 AM Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 09:43:48AM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
> It's also bad for archiving, since threads are inherently unstable.
> Conversation splitting and merging is very awkward (as I've observed
> in the Snapcraft Discourse). I can keep going, but it doesn't matter,
> because you're dead set on this anyway.
I ... don't know how to engage constructively with this accusation, because
it it seems to come from absolutely nowhere. Yes, we're *definitely* trying
out Discourse. That's not a conspiracy — it's live! We're also trying out
HyperKitty. It's live too! We try stuff!
Do not misunderstand me, I don't mind trying out Discourse for certain
types of conversations if we want to, and clearly some communities in
Fedora do.
But I feel like we've done a bad job with giving HyperKitty a fair
shake. The same thing happened with Pagure too, but someone had the
wherewithal to push everything forward enough to make it a success,
and even now I'll say that Pagure is a nice environment. Yeah, Pagure
is still missing things I wish it had, but it's evolving and growing.
It took a few years, but it happened.
I know that the big promotion push for HyperKitty was supposed to come
with Hubs, but somehow that project died before it could go anywhere,
so...
I'm happy to help with infra related stuff, but I'm just not equipped
to do so. Only a few people are. :(
The rest of everything — development resources, infrastructure,
whether
there is widespread adoption — that's not something arguing over will
change. When we can *see* something is not working, we can't just complain
that those are unfair. we should try something else.
The reason I'm arguing about it now is because it doesn't seem to be
fixable from the background. We just keep hacking around it over and
over.
I don't like saying this, but what it comes down to is that our
relationship with RHEL has evolved into a one-sided affair. I wish
someone who is empowered to do something about it would, but the rest
of us can't.
Frankly, I suspect you're the only person who could maybe do anything
about it, and I'm not certain you could do anything about it.
But the comments from several people implying some sort of fait
accompli
here, that some backroom decision has been made, that we're somehow trying
to destroy communication.... seriously?
I'm not talking about you in the Fedora sense. I'm talking about
Gerald and his saying "we must move everything to Discourse".
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
9:49 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:41 AM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not talking about you in the Fedora sense. I'm talking about
Gerald and his saying "we must move everything to Discourse".
Oh really... I said that... perhaps you should take 5 seconds and read the
subject of the thread.
As far as Hyperkitty is concerned you need to take a few minutes and
re-read Matt's response.
But again, Hyperkitty is not the point of this thread.
11:45 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 07:49:41AM -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
Oh really... I said that... perhaps you should take 5 seconds and
read the
subject of the thread.
Hey, let's please keep this friendly.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
11:44 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 10:40:18AM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
I don't like saying this, but what it comes down to is that our
relationship with RHEL has evolved into a one-sided affair. I wish
someone who is empowered to do something about it would, but the rest
of us can't.
Frankly, I suspect you're the only person who could maybe do anything
about it, and I'm not certain you could do anything about it.
Time to pull back the curtain a little bit, I guess. :)
I think the issue isn't really RHEL-Fedora, but Red Hat-Fedora. Red Hat
isn't a large company in the sense of Oracle or SAP or whatever, let alone
Microsoft or Apple, but it's much bigger than it used to be, and much bigger
than RHEL.
Most of Red Hat's _financial_ engagement in Fedora comes from two places:
Platform (i.e., RHEL) and associated groups like QE, and from the CTO's
office via OSAS. In the first bucket, that's hardware and infrastructure,
the people paid to be on the community infra team (and work in Fedora
Infrastructure and Rel-Eng), and me. In the second, the CTO's office, that's
Bex — and now Sanja on CoreOS and Silverblue — and also our community
budget.
On the Platform side, it's easy (and, increasingly so, really!) to get Red
Hat interested Fedora technology that has a direct connection to improving,
well, the platform. This is the answer to why funding for Pagure and not
HyperKitty or Hubs. The src.fedoraproject.org thing and what we're working
on with shared dist-git with CentOS... easy dots to connect. This part of
Red Hat *cares* about Fedora as a succcessful community, but also has to
justify spending, and as the company overall invests in OpenShift in the
Enterprise, there's not a lot of extra.
Meanwhile, the other side of the coin, over in the CTO's office — Fedora's
community budget and staffing is a significant chunk already. (The Discourse
experiment funding is coming through Sanja and not the Fedora community
budget, FWIW.)
As much as I think the CTO's office *should*, they don't have a group of
programmers available to work on community open source tooling. I definitely
am pushing as much as I can for more of that kind of investment, and ...
maybe some things will bear fruit. I have to say, though (since it's
super-relevant to the discussion here) one of the very first questions I get
every time is: "Why does Fedora have so much of its own stuff when there are
open source alternatives? What's with the huge NIH complex?" I do a lot of
shoving rocks uphill on that one!
But if we want this to be a two-way balanced relationship, it can't be all
"Red Hat isn't spending enough money on Fedora's non-engineering
needs!".
What else do you (not just Neal — take this as an open question!) think we
should do differently from a Red Hat side?
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
10:25 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, 19 Oct 2018, Matthew Miller wrote:
> Neal Gompa:
> because you're dead set on this anyway.
Matt Miller:
I ... don't know how to engage constructively with this accusation, because
it it seems to come from absolutely nowhere. Yes, we're *definitely* trying
This seems very tone deaf and lacking in introspection, Matt
perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this
thread with
No mention of trying out, no mention of a trial. Just the
usual 'this is a done deal' announcement on an extremely high
volume mailing list
I had trialled Discourse six months ago, leaving it on for
days at a time. The web client had a leak down in it
somewhere, My baseline load average went up and I ended up
with a frozen web browser once all free ram and swap was
exhausted. Migrate or not as you wish, it will simply be
another place where Fedoraproject went off the tracks, chasing
a mythical low involvement 'tire kicker' instead of supporting
developers using mature tools and technologies (mailing lists,
bugzilla, procmail sorting, mutt or alpine)
The non-migratation capabilities of early MM3 efforts have
been detailed earlier in this thread. Hyperkitty pretends a
33 character hash conveys more information than the MM2 model
for pipermail, or say: YYYYMMDD-NNNN, but no-one was willing
to critique a bad choice
Pagure is great and all, but I recall filing a bug ...
somewhere ... pagure, git, how knows ... about a cross-site
inter-panel info leak, but there is no SPOT -- single point of
truth -- in Fedora's hall of mirrors to find it later ad hoc.
That does not happen with Bugzilla as I have a portfolio of
several dozen custom searches that would reveal it to me with
a couple clicks
But charging off to a new shiny hill seems more important to
Fedoraproject
** shrug **
-- Russ herrold
10:30 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Once upon a time, R P Herrold <herrold(a)owlriver.com> said:
This seems very tone deaf and lacking in introspection, Matt
perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this
thread with
Matt didn't choose that - that subject was set by Gerald B. Cox.
--
Chris Adams <linux(a)cmadams.net>
10:58 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 8:31 AM Chris Adams <linux(a)cmadams.net> wrote:
Once upon a time, R P Herrold <herrold(a)owlriver.com> said:
> This seems very tone deaf and lacking in introspection, Matt
>
> perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this
> thread with
Matt didn't choose that - that subject was set by Gerald B. Cox.
As I previously mentioned with all the top-posting, excerpts and hyperbole
interjected by others people
get lost and run with mis-quotes - perhaps Discourse could help with that.
;-)
Software is a tool for me. I don't get emotionally attached to it - as
some people apparently are. It's a bit telling that
many people seem to be afraid that Discourse will be a success.
11:19 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 12:00 PM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 8:31 AM Chris Adams <linux(a)cmadams.net> wrote:
>
> Once upon a time, R P Herrold <herrold(a)owlriver.com> said:
> > This seems very tone deaf and lacking in introspection, Matt
> >
> > perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this
> > thread with
>
> Matt didn't choose that - that subject was set by Gerald B. Cox.
>
As I previously mentioned with all the top-posting, excerpts and hyperbole interjected by
others people
get lost and run with mis-quotes - perhaps Discourse could help with that. ;-)
Software is a tool for me. I don't get emotionally attached to it - as some people
apparently are. It's a bit telling that
many people seem to be afraid that Discourse will be a success.
I'm more afraid that it'll be a success with casualties. In other
words, it'll be a failure but not look like one at a glance. Driving
people away and making it harder to keep track of topics of import is
going to necessarily constrain how much people are able and willing to
do. It doesn't get simpler than that. And I have *not* seen a
Discourse instance be successful in that with large teams, much less
large groups like the development groups within Fedora.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
11:27 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 12:19:43PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
I'm more afraid that it'll be a success with casualties. In
other
words, it'll be a failure but not look like one at a glance. Driving
people away and making it harder to keep track of topics of import is
going to necessarily constrain how much people are able and willing to
do. It doesn't get simpler than that. And I have *not* seen a
Discourse instance be successful in that with large teams, much less
large groups like the development groups within Fedora.
Yeah -- this is completely reasonable!
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
9:43 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 18:30 Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 12:00 PM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us>
wrote:
>
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 8:31 AM Chris Adams <linux(a)cmadams.net> wrote:
>>
>> Once upon a time, R P Herrold <herrold(a)owlriver.com> said:
>> > This seems very tone deaf and lacking in introspection, Matt
>> >
>> > perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this
>> > thread with
>>
>> Matt didn't choose that - that subject was set by Gerald B. Cox.
>>
> As I previously mentioned with all the top-posting, excerpts and
hyperbole interjected by others people
> get lost and run with mis-quotes - perhaps Discourse could help with
that. ;-)
>
> Software is a tool for me. I don't get emotionally attached to it - as
some people apparently are. It's a bit telling that
> many people seem to be afraid that Discourse will be a success.
>
I'm more afraid that it'll be a success with casualties. In other
words, it'll be a failure but not look like one at a glance. Driving
people away and making it harder to keep track of topics of import is
going to necessarily constrain how much people are able and willing to
do. It doesn't get simpler than that. And I have *not* seen a
Discourse instance be successful in that with large teams, much less
large groups like the development groups within Fedora.
Actually, Rust ecosystem is using discourse quite well. Both for
development discussions and for user discussions.
2:56 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 08:58:57 -0700
"Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 8:31 AM Chris Adams <linux(a)cmadams.net>
wrote:
> Once upon a time, R P Herrold <herrold(a)owlriver.com> said:
> > This seems very tone deaf and lacking in introspection, Matt
> >
> > perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this
> > thread with
>
> Matt didn't choose that - that subject was set by Gerald B. Cox.
Yeah, it is kind of confrontational; there's a big difference between
'Should Fedora replace mailing lists with Discourse?'
and 'Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse.'
One implies a community discourse, the other implies a decision already
made.
As I previously mentioned with all the top-posting, excerpts and
hyperbole
interjected by others people
get lost and run with mis-quotes - perhaps Discourse could help with
that. ;-)
Software is a tool for me. I don't get emotionally attached to it -
as some people apparently are. It's a bit telling that
many people seem to be afraid that Discourse will be a success.
It isn't free for people who have already a good working system to
adopt Discourse. They have to invest time and effort in learning,
adapting, and helping fix the new system. What's in it for them? I've
had this happen to me in the past, but I was paid by my employer for
the time and effort.
You aren't really selling Discourse, so much as trying to bludgeon
people into going along with your opinion. Anyone who's been around
the block a few times knows that there are lots of fads with fabulous
press that don't pan out.
So, you are really gung-ho for Discourse. What is your personal
experience of using it on a project, before and after? Did you
actually see more engagement? Did the process of development run
smoother than it had before? Did new contributors join the project you
were working on? Did experienced contributors keep contributing? Did
it help build community spirit? Did it make *your* life easier?
5:20 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 3:58 PM stan <stanl-fedorauser(a)vfemail.net> wrote:
On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 08:58:57 -0700
"Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us> wrote:
> Software is a tool for me. I don't get emotionally attached to it -
> as some people apparently are. It's a bit telling that
> many people seem to be afraid that Discourse will be a success.
It isn't free for people who have already a good working system to
adopt Discourse. They have to invest time and effort in learning,
adapting, and helping fix the new system. What's in it for them? I've
had this happen to me in the past, but I was paid by my employer for
the time and effort.
You aren't really selling Discourse, so much as trying to bludgeon
people into going along with your opinion. Anyone who's been around
the block a few times knows that there are lots of fads with fabulous
press that don't pan out.
Indeed-- this thread feels like it has deteriorated into pro-Discourse
and pro-email people sniping at each other. I am not sure how useful
continuing to say things like "And if this conversation were in
Discourse..." or "perhaps Discourse could help with that" really is
when trying to convince people who don't agree with you.
I don't know that I feel strongly one way or the other about Discourse
vs. email. What I do feel strongly about, as I wrote much earlier in
the thread, is that any plan to move something as important to the
project as email to a new system really needs to be carefully
considered. And part of that careful consideration needs to be an
honest assessment of what the negative consequences are likely to be.
I suspect the negative consequences (as many have already said) are
that it won't be possible to use Discourse as a drop-in replacement
for these mailing lists, which will break the workflows of numerous
current contributors, causing them to become less involved in
discussions and perhaps the project altogether.
It is a bit disheartening that some of those advocating the change
seem unwilling to acknowledge this, or have dismissed it as people who
aren't willing to move with the times, or as just "hyperbole".
Ben Rosser
11:11 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
stan writes:
So, you are really gung-ho for Discourse.
IMO, that's not nasty, but it wasn't necessary and could be taken
badly in context. Just, "as a proponent, I'd like to ask you" is good
when things are getting heated.
Your questions are important[1], and I'd like to gloss them:
What is your personal experience of using it on a project, before
and after?
It would be helpful to specify the project. It's also really
important to be specific about what was merely comfortable, and what
directly contributed to solving problems of developing the project's
software.
Did you actually see more engagement?
And by whom? Developers? Users with requirements? Randos who
engaged in controversy but in the end contributed neither code nor to
refining requirements, specifications, or design?
Did you see *less* engagement (especially of the rando type)?
Did the process of development run smoother than it had before?
And if so, what aspects of the software contributed to smoothness, and
how?
Which parts of the process (requirements, specification, design,
coding, testing, documentation) benefited specifically?
Were there any aspects that were less smooth?
Did new contributors join the project you were working on?
Did experienced contributors keep contributing?
Did it help build community spirit?
How did "channel culture" change? Were people more or less polite?
Were experienced participants more or less likely to help on-boarding
newcomers? Mentor new contributors?
Did it make *your* life easier?
And for others? How might these things generalize to this list?
Steve
GNU Mailman Project
Footnotes:
[1] To Fedora in deciding to move or not, but also to Mailman to
learn requirements to improve our product. "required disclosure"
3:05 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/19/18 8:58 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
Software is a tool for me. I don't get emotionally attached to
it - as
some people apparently are. It's a bit telling that
many people seem to be afraid that Discourse will be a success.
I'm not emotionally attached to it, but I am somewhat afraid that
Discourse will be a success. Forum-type communication websites do not
work for me personally, so if this mailing list moved to Discourse, my
involvement could drop drastically depending on how the email
integration works. For example, github and bugzilla work because they
have full email messages. I don't have to go to the website to get the
rest of the message. I do have to go there in order to reply, but
that's mostly ok. However, most forums just send you an email saying
there's something new on the topic with maybe a truncated bit of the
message and I have to go to the website to figure out what's happened.
That does not work and I have very little participation on those.
I find that email works really well. It's easy to search, I control the
labelling, organizing and filtering, I can back it up, I can use it
offline, minimal data usage on my phone, and so on. Features that just
aren't going to work on a website-based system.
4:15 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, 2018-10-19 at 13:05 -0700, Samuel Sieb wrote:
For example, github and bugzilla work because they
have full email messages. I don't have to go to the website to get
the
rest of the message.
You actually can reply to the e-mails from GitHub (not sure about
Bugzilla). They do thread weirdly when you do that to a review comment
vs. replying to the review comment on the HTML, so it's a bit janky,
but it does work.
1:42 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Gerald B. Cox wrote:
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 8:31 AM Chris Adams <linux(a)cmadams.net>
wrote:
> Once upon a time, R P Herrold <herrold(a)owlriver.com> said:
> > perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this
> > thread with
>
> Matt didn't choose that - that subject was set by Gerald B. Cox.
>
> As I previously mentioned with all the top-posting, excerpts and hyperbole
interjected by others people
get lost and run with mis-quotes - perhaps Discourse could help with that.
Moments before I read this I checked for myself who had changed the
subject line. It took me about five seconds to scroll up in the tree
view, find the point where the subject changed, and read the name on
the same line. Having just done that so easily, I can really appreciate
how utterly misdirected your remark is.
If it's difficult for you to check who wrote a subject line, then your
problem is that you're trying to read a mailing list through a user
agent that isn't up to the task. And, speaking of misquotes, the
misattributed line that can be seen above ("As I previously ...") is a
visible indication that you're not using one of the better Mail User
Agents.
Humans will always misremember things, and not bother to check because
they think they remember. No technology is going to help with that
until we get direct neural interfaces.
Björn Persson
1:03 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, 19 Oct 2018, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, R P Herrold <herrold(a)owlriver.com> said:
> This seems very tone deaf and lacking in introspection, Matt
>
> perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this
> thread with
Matt didn't choose that - that subject was set by Gerald B. Cox.
If you say so (and I have no reason to doubt, but cannot
confirm, so: sorry for the mis-attribution, Matt) ... at the
URL in your email message headers is a link to:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.o...
Perma-link:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.o...
and at that page, the link titled ' Back to the thread '
points into a wholly different discussion
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.o...
One more reason to dislike KyperKitty hashes over pipermail
-- Russ herrold
11:43 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/19/18 6:43 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:16 AM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us>
wrote:
>
> Again, I believe some are trying to do an apples to apples comparison with Discourse
and mailing list technologies. Discourse was build from the ground up with the goal of
fostering communication and collaboration. Hyperkitty is a bolt on HTML to mailing list
archives. It's good for what it is, but it isn't Discourse - and usage numbers
tend to bear that out.
>
That's an unfair characterization. HyperKitty was designed from the
ground up with that goal in mind too. The _sole_ difference is the
backend approach. Discourse uses a database system while HyperKitty
uses a mail list engine.
You know why the usage numbers bear that out? Because the upgrade to
HyperKitty was mishandled and delayed over and over. We were screwed
over by the fact that our infrastructure doesn't run on Fedora, so
that made it harder to get it working. The initial deployment was very
slow and unoptimized. Bugs in the UI remained unfixed in Fedora's
installation even though upstream fixed them. I would not be surprised
if upstream ignores us because we don't seem to be upgrading.
Huh, you do realize that things take as long as they take, and there's
no magic wand for 'it's magically done'. mailman3 was a massive
undertaking with a very small group of developers, many of whom were
wanting things to be really done before releasing them.
Much of our infrastructure does run on Fedora, and mailman3 could too if
we needed it to. It just wasn't the decision at the time.
Bugs remain unfixed because there's not too much bugfixing going on.
I see two commits in this month, 2 last month, 1 the month before...
You can always ask why we aren't upgrading. In this case it's because we
are moving stuff to python36 from 34. If these fixes are urgent let us
know and we can re-evaluate and try and get things faster. I was under
the impression that the fixes were pretty minor.
...snip...
We have not taken good care of our mail list infrastructure. I
don't
blame our infra team. I blame the fact our infra runs on RHEL, and
RHEL has handicapped us in so many ways because of their own choices.
Fedora can't control its own (infrastructure) destiny because we have
no power to influence RHEL at all. And that's broken.
Thats simply not the case. We run many things on Fedora. We do so where
it makes sense and RHEL where that makes sense, and increasingly
OpenShift when that makes sense. ;)
I attempted to use the discourse rss feeds this last week, and they
were... not great. I still need to try mailing list mode before speaking
much more on it.
kevin
11:09 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Kevin Fenzi writes:
On 10/19/18 6:43 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:
> You know why the usage numbers bear that out? Because the
upgrade to
> HyperKitty was mishandled and delayed over and over. We were screwed
> over by the fact that our infrastructure doesn't run on Fedora, so
> that made it harder to get it working. The initial deployment was very
> slow and unoptimized. Bugs in the UI remained unfixed in Fedora's
> installation even though upstream fixed them. I would not be surprised
> if upstream ignores us because we don't seem to be upgrading.
Huh, you do realize that things take as long as they take, and there's
no magic wand for 'it's magically done'. mailman3 was a massive
undertaking with a very small group of developers, many of whom were
wanting things to be really done before releasing them.
Yeah, as a core Mailman developer I was really disappointed when the
whole crew of Fedora/RH-supported developers just disappeared without
leaving behind successors. I understand why that happens, but I wish
I'd known they were able to participate only as long as they were
assigned to it. Unfortunately, it's clear from the current
installation supporting this list that no, they didn't get things
"really done", or at least they were restricted to their direct
relationship with HyperKitty -- in Fedora Postorius, even the
explanatory blurbs in the user config screens are frequently
incomplete (eg, lack information about current, default, and inherited
values) and at least one is outright confusing (the semantics of the
associated variable are the reverse of the option name). Again, I
understand why such things happen, but *somebody* is going to have to
commit to better care and feeding of the channel, whatever software is
supporting it.
We at Mailman are very happy to help. We're also a small crew of
part-timers, so that's going to be limited, but at least we're aware
that Fedora's is one of the most heavily-used Mailman 3 installations,
so we have a strong interest in it working well! Máirín's mail to our
dev list got immediate and enthusiastic reaction. But we can't help
if you have no support for upgrading to upstream current release;
that's not our job (unless paid, and I'm not even sure that would
break our developers loose from other responsibilities and core work).
I'm not sure you can count on such support from Discourse, but I have
said more about that elsewhere in the thread, so I won't belabor it here.
You can always ask why we aren't upgrading. In this case it's
because we
are moving stuff to python36 from 34. If these fixes are urgent let us
know and we can re-evaluate and try and get things faster. I was under
the impression that the fixes were pretty minor.
HyperKitty is a fairly complex piece of software. I never did make
head or tail of it (most of my time is devoted to core Mailman,
especially email security such as DMARC and crypto), and there's
nobody associated with the Mailman project to teach me about it
anymore. To me it's not surprising that the only things people are
willing to touch are minor. And even the original developers are
unlikely to be familiar with the current state of upstream, as
upstream has changes, some significant I think.
Steve
2:53 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/20/18 9:09 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Kevin Fenzi writes:
> On 10/19/18 6:43 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > You know why the usage numbers bear that out? Because the upgrade to
> > HyperKitty was mishandled and delayed over and over. We were screwed
> > over by the fact that our infrastructure doesn't run on Fedora, so
> > that made it harder to get it working. The initial deployment was very
> > slow and unoptimized. Bugs in the UI remained unfixed in Fedora's
> > installation even though upstream fixed them. I would not be surprised
> > if upstream ignores us because we don't seem to be upgrading.
>
> Huh, you do realize that things take as long as they take, and there's
> no magic wand for 'it's magically done'. mailman3 was a massive
> undertaking with a very small group of developers, many of whom were
> wanting things to be really done before releasing them.
Yeah, as a core Mailman developer I was really disappointed when the
whole crew of Fedora/RH-supported developers just disappeared without
leaving behind successors. I understand why that happens, but I wish
I'd known they were able to participate only as long as they were
assigned to it.
Huh. The only person I know of from Fedora at least that was working on
it was abompard. While he's working on other things now, as far as I
know he's still working on mailman3/hyperkitty as time permits.
Unfortunately, it's clear from the current
installation supporting this list that no, they didn't get things
"really done", or at least they were restricted to their direct
relationship with HyperKitty -- in Fedora Postorius, even the
explanatory blurbs in the user config screens are frequently
incomplete (eg, lack information about current, default, and inherited
values) and at least one is outright confusing (the semantics of the
associated variable are the reverse of the option name). Again, I
understand why such things happen, but *somebody* is going to have to
commit to better care and feeding of the channel, whatever software is
supporting it.
Sure, but it could be anyone who wants to fix those things.
By "really done" I didn't mean that the software was bug free and
implemented 100% of it's intended uses. I just meant that they want to
ship a usable product, of course there are still bugs or things that in
hindshight would have been good to fix before release.
We at Mailman are very happy to help. We're also a small crew
of
part-timers, so that's going to be limited, but at least we're aware
that Fedora's is one of the most heavily-used Mailman 3 installations,
so we have a strong interest in it working well! Máirín's mail to our
dev list got immediate and enthusiastic reaction. But we can't help
if you have no support for upgrading to upstream current release;
that's not our job (unless paid, and I'm not even sure that would
break our developers loose from other responsibilities and core work).
Sure, and I don't know of anyone who said it was your responsibility.
We have a ton of things going on, so we just had this as low priority
currently. If it needs to be moved up higher the reasons for that would
be great to know/discuss.
I'm not sure you can count on such support from Discourse, but I
have
said more about that elsewhere in the thread, so I won't belabor it here.
> You can always ask why we aren't upgrading. In this case it's because we
> are moving stuff to python36 from 34. If these fixes are urgent let us
> know and we can re-evaluate and try and get things faster. I was under
> the impression that the fixes were pretty minor.
HyperKitty is a fairly complex piece of software. I never did make
head or tail of it (most of my time is devoted to core Mailman,
especially email security such as DMARC and crypto), and there's
nobody associated with the Mailman project to teach me about it
anymore. To me it's not surprising that the only things people are
willing to touch are minor. And even the original developers are
unlikely to be familiar with the current state of upstream, as
upstream has changes, some significant I think.
While I know he's got many other things on his plate, I thought Aurelien
was still doing upstream work and helping folks. CCing him on this, I
could be mistaken.
kevin
8:12 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Kevin Fenzi writes:
Huh. The only person I know of from Fedora at least that was
working on it was abompard. While he's working on other things now,
as far as I know he's still working on mailman3/hyperkitty as time
permits.
pingu and abadger also contributed. Don't know their exact
affiliations or what they're doing for Fedora's installation, but all
three have stopped substantial upstream contribution for a couple
years now. abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer mail
but that's about it. abadger we still hang with at PyCons, but he
wasn't involved in the later development, and would have to put a lot
of effort in to get up to speed. As you say "it could be anyone who
wants to", so we're not going to ask any of them to do more than they
want to at any given time. They're not core any more.
> but *somebody* is going to have to commit to better care and
> feeding of the channel, whatever software is supporting it.
Sure, but it could be anyone who wants to fix those things.
No, it can't, can it. Fedora is not keeping up with upstream, which
means that "anyone who wants to" isn't upgrading on the Fedora system.
And that's because they'd need to get permission or effort out of the
operators, and apparently that's scarce. The people who manage the
machines have to make this commitment, or it goes nowhere.
By "really done" I didn't mean that the software was
bug free and
implemented 100% of it's intended uses. I just meant that they want
to ship a usable product, of course there are still bugs or things
that in hindshight would have been good to fix before release.
I accept your definition, but I've never seen "really done" used to
mean just "usable" before. ;-)
Sure, and I don't know of anyone who said it was your
responsibility.
I didn't say anybody said that; I was pointing out that we are ready
to help by accepting and maintaining bugfixes and improvements done by
Fedora workers (as before), and to a limited extent to use our own
resources to work on bug reports and RFEs. We have a proven record of
doing exactly that. Discourse, OTOH, is an unknown quantity in that
respect to me, and some of the things that I consider bugs in
Discourse (eg, sending BBcode in text/plain parts) appear to be
deliberate choices, so I would not be optimistic about getting some of
the changes Fedora will want through quickly.
We have a ton of things going on, so we just had this as low
priority currently. If it needs to be moved up higher the reasons
for that would be great to know/discuss.
I don't know the reasons, but somebody at Fedora does: they're the
same reasons that fedoraforum.org exists.
While I know he's got many other things on his plate, I thought
Aurelien was still doing upstream work and helping folks. CCing him
on this, I could be mistaken.
He's got a spate of commits every summer. But I think that abompard,
as well as pingu and abadger, are a moot point here: they focused on
core functions and scalability. Máirín is the author of the UI layer
and has offered to work on these UX issues. I'm confident that she'll
produce results for us! The question is will they get used by Fedora?
Much as I detest forums personally, I consider this an open question
for Fedora. The "try it, you'll like it" advocacy from forum
proponents worries me, but Fedora is not my thing, Mailman is. You
all have to decide.
I will say I've seen this happen in several communities now (Python,
Emacs). The communities seem to scale past the capacity of the
communication channels. But to me (and the economics of information
is what I do for a living), I don't think it's a problem with the
channels, it's a PEBKAC. The *people* at the terminals don't have the
bandwidth, and they're desperately searching for a way to reduce the
time investment. But in my experience, they don't reallocate from
fighting with email to more fruitful conversations on the channel
(although they may be more polite with more moderation). Instead,
they reduce engagement all around. And that's what I don't like about
forums: in my experience, they undermine the productivity of the
channel at the same time as they increase collegiality. YMMV, of
course, but I evidently have a lot of company in this perception. :-(
Steve
8:33 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/21/18 6:12 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Kevin Fenzi writes:
> Huh. The only person I know of from Fedora at least that was
> working on it was abompard. While he's working on other things now,
> as far as I know he's still working on mailman3/hyperkitty as time
> permits.
pingu and abadger also contributed. Don't know their exact
affiliations or what they're doing for Fedora's installation, but all
three have stopped substantial upstream contribution for a couple
Toshio (abadger) works on ansible now. Pierre (pingou) is still in the
Fedora engineering group but is focused on pagure and ci work. I only
see 2 commits ever from Toshio and all of pingou's commits were at the
very start of the project in 2012.
years now. abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer
mail
but that's about it.
Well, he has 980 commits, much more than anyone else.
abadger we still hang with at PyCons, but he
wasn't involved in the later development, and would have to put a lot
of effort in to get up to speed. As you say "it could be anyone who
wants to", so we're not going to ask any of them to do more than they
want to at any given time. They're not core any more.
> > but *somebody* is going to have to commit to better care and
> > feeding of the channel, whatever software is supporting it.
>
> Sure, but it could be anyone who wants to fix those things.
No, it can't, can it. Fedora is not keeping up with upstream, which
means that "anyone who wants to" isn't upgrading on the Fedora system.
And that's because they'd need to get permission or effort out of the
operators, and apparently that's scarce. The people who manage the
machines have to make this commitment, or it goes nowhere.
We intend to keep up with upstream, but we haven't dropped other items
to do so urgently. Unless there is some decision to move to something
else, we definitely plan to catch back up to upstream when we can.
...snip...
> We have a ton of things going on, so we just had this as low
> priority currently. If it needs to be moved up higher the reasons
> for that would be great to know/discuss.
I don't know the reasons, but somebody at Fedora does: they're the
same reasons that fedoraforum.org exists.
I'm not able to parse this. This very thread is more information that
may get us to move it up in priority. Can you rephrase?
> While I know he's got many other things on his plate, I
thought
> Aurelien was still doing upstream work and helping folks. CCing him
> on this, I could be mistaken.
He's got a spate of commits every summer. But I think that abompard,
as well as pingu and abadger, are a moot point here: they focused on
core functions and scalability. Máirín is the author of the UI layer
and has offered to work on these UX issues. I'm confident that she'll
produce results for us! The question is will they get used by Fedora?
Sure, if they go in upstream they will be used by us when we update.
Much as I detest forums personally, I consider this an open question
for Fedora. The "try it, you'll like it" advocacy from forum
proponents worries me, but Fedora is not my thing, Mailman is. You
all have to decide.
Sure. I appreciate your input though!
kevin
1:14 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Kevin Fenzi writes:
On 10/21/18 6:12 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> years now. abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still
answer mail
> but that's about it.
Well, he has 980 commits, much more than anyone else.
Sure, but in the last couple of years there are only a couple of dozen
commits from all committers.
We intend to keep up with upstream, but we haven't dropped other
items to do so urgently.
OK, you're right: it's not urgent; HyperKitty is at 1.2.0a1 in our
repo, 1.1.5 is dated October 17 last year, but little has changed and
no new features in the UI. Fedora's Postorius is 1.1.2 (upstream
1.2.3), but I doubt that many of the issues I have with Fedora's
Postorius are fixed upstream, they're more local installation stuff.
There are many more upstream changes in Postorius vs. HyperKitty, but
I didn't notice any missing Postorius functionality (except web form
signups, and that's deliberate).
Máirín will probably have results in a couple months but we are
unlikely to release again until PyCon (in May, I think).
> I don't know the reasons, but somebody at Fedora does:
they're the
> same reasons that fedoraforum.org exists.
I'm not able to parse this. This very thread is more information that
may get us to move it up in priority. Can you rephrase?
I don't know what "Fedora management" values, or what is needed by the
people who are doing the work that devel is designed for (coordinating
packages, troubleshooting dependencies, etc). However, there are
forums related to Fedora that people have put up (and IIUC fedoraforum
is an experiment set up by the Fedora project itself). That means
there is some dissatisfaction. But turning that into requirements, or
justifying using admin resources, etc to upgrade requires more
knowledge about the community than I have.
I haven't found this thread very informative, to be honest. The email
advocates say "it works, could be better" (which given the traffic
levels I'd have to say is true) which isn't very specific about *what*
works and how it works to enhance productivity, while the forum
advocates are not at all precise about how a forum is supposed to
improve *productivity* of this list. They're mostly focused on
certain issues, such as ease of entry that I agree are important for a
user support forum, but I don't think they really help the devel
workers (that's my personal opinion, not anything I can claim
expertise on).
Sure. I appreciate your input though!
Try and stop me! :-)
Seriously, as I said before, Fedora is currently one of our biggest
publicly accessible Mailman 3 installations. We want the best for you
first, but if "the best for Fedora" can be Mailman 3, we want it to
shine!
Steve
2:22 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 15:05, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen(a)xemacs.org> wrote:
> > I'm not able to parse this. This very thread is more information that
> > may get us to move it up in priority. Can you rephrase?
> I don't know what "Fedora management"
values, or what is needed by the
> people who are doing the work that devel is designed for (coordinating
> packages, troubleshooting dependencies, etc). However, there are
> forums related to Fedora that people have put up (and IIUC fedoraforum
> is an experiment set up by the Fedora project itself). That means
Fedora Forum is from a long time ago when Fedora was just starting up.
At that time things were being set up in a more confederated method
where teams would run the products they wanted. The discussions of
mailing lists vs web-something have gone on since 2004 at least. And
they branch out into 'you should use slack!', 'you should use irc',
'telegram!', 'USEnet!' 'you all are wrong. the Plato system had a
superior method', etc etc etc
> there is some dissatisfaction. But turning that into requirements, or
> justifying using admin resources, etc to upgrade requires more
> knowledge about the community than I have.
> I haven't found this thread very informative, to be
honest. The email
> advocates say "it works, could be better" (which given the traffic
> levels I'd have to say is true) which isn't very specific about *what*
Which pretty sums up every one of these conversations over the last 15
years. I don't think either side really can formulate things any more
than a left handed person can say why they are left handed versus
right handed.. one method works better for their brain and the other
doesn't. Does it work perfectly? No but the other method is like using
a tool which always feels wrong. You might be able to learn to use it
but it always itches. Trying to explain it beyond that comes down to
things like 'well it must be superior because I work better on it!'
versus 'well my brain likes to categorize things in this visual method
and your brain uses that method.'
And then a bunch of people try to come up with a tool which works for
everyone but find out that the larger the net, the bigger the holes.
Roll around 2-3 years and we will see another version.
--
Stephen J Smoogen.
2:22 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/22/18 11:14 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Kevin Fenzi writes:
> On 10/21/18 6:12 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> > years now. abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer mail
> > but that's about it.
>
> Well, he has 980 commits, much more than anyone else.
Sure, but in the last couple of years there are only a couple of dozen
commits from all committers.
True. ;(
> We intend to keep up with upstream, but we haven't dropped
other
> items to do so urgently.
OK, you're right: it's not urgent; HyperKitty is at 1.2.0a1 in our
repo, 1.1.5 is dated October 17 last year, but little has changed and
no new features in the UI. Fedora's Postorius is 1.1.2 (upstream
1.2.3), but I doubt that many of the issues I have with Fedora's
Postorius are fixed upstream, they're more local installation stuff.
There are many more upstream changes in Postorius vs. HyperKitty, but
I didn't notice any missing Postorius functionality (except web form
signups, and that's deliberate).
Máirín will probably have results in a couple months but we are
unlikely to release again until PyCon (in May, I think).
Yeah, but staying closer to upstream is still valuable, so people who
commit fixes don't have to wait ages to see them in production.
Another thing I'd like to do at some point, and perhaps we should just
do this soon is move our instance to openshift. That would allow for a
lot faster deployment schedule and a lot more flexability about what
container(s) we use for things as well as scaling, etc. But again thats
some work we need to prioritize and get people working on.
> > I don't know the reasons, but somebody at Fedora does: they're the
> > same reasons that fedoraforum.org exists.
>
> I'm not able to parse this. This very thread is more information that
> may get us to move it up in priority. Can you rephrase?
I don't know what "Fedora management" values, or what is needed by the
people who are doing the work that devel is designed for (coordinating
packages, troubleshooting dependencies, etc). However, there are
forums related to Fedora that people have put up (and IIUC fedoraforum
is an experiment set up by the Fedora project itself). That means
there is some dissatisfaction. But turning that into requirements, or
justifying using admin resources, etc to upgrade requires more
knowledge about the community than I have.
Fedoraforum is not now, nor has it ever been run by the Fedora project.
It's always been a 3rd party site that runs how they like. I used to be
a moderator there, but I've not had time to even login there in ages.
(perhaps proving that polling sites always ends up slipping down your
list until you no longer remember to do it).
I haven't found this thread very informative, to be honest. The
email
advocates say "it works, could be better" (which given the traffic
levels I'd have to say is true) which isn't very specific about *what*
works and how it works to enhance productivity, while the forum
advocates are not at all precise about how a forum is supposed to
improve *productivity* of this list. They're mostly focused on
certain issues, such as ease of entry that I agree are important for a
user support forum, but I don't think they really help the devel
workers (that's my personal opinion, not anything I can claim
expertise on).
Yep. Perhaps we could (re)direct people to file issues with upstreams so
their problems are at least tracked.
> Sure. I appreciate your input though!
Try and stop me! :-)
Seriously, as I said before, Fedora is currently one of our biggest
publicly accessible Mailman 3 installations. We want the best for you
first, but if "the best for Fedora" can be Mailman 3, we want it to
shine!
Thanks!
kevin
12:01 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Kevin Fenzi writes:
Thanks for the conversation and a lot of useful information. I think
it's mostly moved to "users", which is a channel which I think is more
suited to forum style. So I'll go back to lurking, after one comment.
Yep. Perhaps we could (re)direct people to file issues with upstreams
so
their problems are at least tracked.
These should be triaged by somebody who understands Mailman, as many
of the issues that have been mentioned are specific to the Fedora
instance. Most prominent is the closure of the web form, with no
explicit redirection to social auth or email signup. No need to be
massively careful about it, we understand that users find it difficult
to identify the right venue to report mail issues in general and list
issues in particular. But it's very frustrating for them to get
bounced back and forth.
Steve
4:37 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 06:33:56PM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
On 10/21/18 6:12 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Kevin Fenzi writes:
>
> > Huh. The only person I know of from Fedora at least that was
> > working on it was abompard. While he's working on other things now,
> > as far as I know he's still working on mailman3/hyperkitty as time
> > permits.
>
> pingu and abadger also contributed. Don't know their exact
> affiliations or what they're doing for Fedora's installation, but all
> three have stopped substantial upstream contribution for a couple
Toshio (abadger) works on ansible now. Pierre (pingou) is still in the
Fedora engineering group but is focused on pagure and ci work. I only
see 2 commits ever from Toshio and all of pingou's commits were at the
very start of the project in 2012.
Toshio and I implemented the early version of HyperKitty based on Máirín's
designs at a time I was still a part-time contributor. Aurélien has been hired
by RH a few months after HK took off and basically he took over from Toshio and
I.
Since then I did join RH and the Fedora engineering group but since we already
had Aurélien working on HK, I kept hanging around a little but focused on other
projects.
This explains the profile of contributions you're seeing from the three of us :)
Pierre
9:35 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer mail
but that's about it.
I agree that my activity on HyperKitty has slowed down a lot these last years, because I
got involved with other projects too.
No, it can't, can it. Fedora is not keeping up with upstream,
which
means that "anyone who wants to" isn't upgrading on the Fedora system.
I'm planning to upgrade but I'm currently stuck with the fact that Mailman Core
upped it's dependency on Python 3.5+, and only Python 3.4 is easily accessible in
EPEL. So we need to come up with a plan to rebuild all the dependency packages for both
Python 3.4 and 3.6, which was part of the initial python lib spec file template in EPEL,
but never got really implemented by python lib packagers. (see
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/python-devel@lists.fedorapr...)
Or run the lists on Fedora instead of CentOS. Or install in a venv instead of RPMs. All
these solutions come with advandages and tradeoffs.
But the plan is definitely to upgrade, once we have a solution to this issue.
Aurélien
10:49 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/22/18 7:35 AM, Aurelien Bompard wrote:
> abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer mail
> but that's about it.
I agree that my activity on HyperKitty has slowed down a lot these last years, because I
got involved with other projects too.
> No, it can't, can it. Fedora is not keeping up with upstream, which
> means that "anyone who wants to" isn't upgrading on the Fedora system.
I'm planning to upgrade but I'm currently stuck with the fact that Mailman Core
upped it's dependency on Python 3.5+, and only Python 3.4 is easily accessible in
EPEL. So we need to come up with a plan to rebuild all the dependency packages for both
Python 3.4 and 3.6, which was part of the initial python lib spec file template in EPEL,
but never got really implemented by python lib packagers. (see
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/python-devel@lists.fedorapr...)
EPEL folks are trying to plan a python3 work day with whoever we can get
from the python sig soon, where we try and move as much of the stack as
we can to python36. That should very much help this.
Or run the lists on Fedora instead of CentOS. Or install in a venv
instead of RPMs. All these solutions come with advandages and tradeoffs.
But the plan is definitely to upgrade, once we have a solution to this issue.
Yep.
kevin
11:49 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:40 PM Kevin Fenzi <kevin(a)scrye.com> wrote:
On 10/22/18 7:35 AM, Aurelien Bompard wrote:
>> abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer mail
>> but that's about it.
>
> I agree that my activity on HyperKitty has slowed down a lot these last years,
because I got involved with other projects too.
>
>> No, it can't, can it. Fedora is not keeping up with upstream, which
>> means that "anyone who wants to" isn't upgrading on the Fedora
system.
>
> I'm planning to upgrade but I'm currently stuck with the fact that Mailman
Core upped it's dependency on Python 3.5+, and only Python 3.4 is easily accessible in
EPEL. So we need to come up with a plan to rebuild all the dependency packages for both
Python 3.4 and 3.6, which was part of the initial python lib spec file template in EPEL,
but never got really implemented by python lib packagers. (see
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/python-devel@lists.fedorapr...)
EPEL folks are trying to plan a python3 work day with whoever we can get
from the python sig soon, where we try and move as much of the stack as
we can to python36. That should very much help this.
Would it be too difficult to just move to Fedora for the Mailman +
HyperKitty + Postorius system?
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
12:31 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/22/18 9:49 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:40 PM Kevin Fenzi <kevin(a)scrye.com>
wrote:
>
> On 10/22/18 7:35 AM, Aurelien Bompard wrote:
>>> abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer mail
>>> but that's about it.
>>
>> I agree that my activity on HyperKitty has slowed down a lot these last years,
because I got involved with other projects too.
>>
>>> No, it can't, can it. Fedora is not keeping up with upstream, which
>>> means that "anyone who wants to" isn't upgrading on the Fedora
system.
>>
>> I'm planning to upgrade but I'm currently stuck with the fact that
Mailman Core upped it's dependency on Python 3.5+, and only Python 3.4 is easily
accessible in EPEL. So we need to come up with a plan to rebuild all the dependency
packages for both Python 3.4 and 3.6, which was part of the initial python lib spec file
template in EPEL, but never got really implemented by python lib packagers. (see
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/python-devel@lists.fedorapr...)
>
> EPEL folks are trying to plan a python3 work day with whoever we can get
> from the python sig soon, where we try and move as much of the stack as
> we can to python36. That should very much help this.
>
Would it be too difficult to just move to Fedora for the Mailman +
HyperKitty + Postorius system?
Well, it would still be some work, just different. I know mailman3 is
under review, we would want that to finish up, then any other packages
we need, then fixing up any config for fedora vs rhel, etc.
Might be easier, not sure.
kevin
1:28 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 2:22 PM Kevin Fenzi <kevin(a)scrye.com> wrote:
On 10/22/18 9:49 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:40 PM Kevin Fenzi <kevin(a)scrye.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 10/22/18 7:35 AM, Aurelien Bompard wrote:
>>>> abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer mail
>>>> but that's about it.
>>>
>>> I agree that my activity on HyperKitty has slowed down a lot these last
years, because I got involved with other projects too.
>>>
>>>> No, it can't, can it. Fedora is not keeping up with upstream,
which
>>>> means that "anyone who wants to" isn't upgrading on the
Fedora system.
>>>
>>> I'm planning to upgrade but I'm currently stuck with the fact that
Mailman Core upped it's dependency on Python 3.5+, and only Python 3.4 is easily
accessible in EPEL. So we need to come up with a plan to rebuild all the dependency
packages for both Python 3.4 and 3.6, which was part of the initial python lib spec file
template in EPEL, but never got really implemented by python lib packagers. (see
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/python-devel@lists.fedorapr...)
>>
>> EPEL folks are trying to plan a python3 work day with whoever we can get
>> from the python sig soon, where we try and move as much of the stack as
>> we can to python36. That should very much help this.
>>
>
> Would it be too difficult to just move to Fedora for the Mailman +
> HyperKitty + Postorius system?
Well, it would still be some work, just different. I know mailman3 is
under review, we would want that to finish up, then any other packages
we need, then fixing up any config for fedora vs rhel, etc.
Might be easier, not sure.
I'm doing the review for mailman3, I'm just waiting on Aurelien to
respond in it.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
5:31 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Gerald, I'm the person who designed Hyperkitty's concept on a napkin on a
shuttlebus with Luke Macken some years ago. Your characterization of it here is
incorrect.
I say this with respect, please try to listen more than you post. Hyperkitty stats show
you're dominating this conveesation.
~m
2:29 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thursday, 18 October 2018 at 23:04, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
[...]
I wouldn't expect it to be a "drop-in" mailing list
replacement.
Yes, it allows some backward compatibility by providing
"mailing-list mode" - but you're going to get a richer
experience if you use native interfaces.
So, I tried to answer in one of the threads and it's quite difficult,
in my opinion. The message compose pop-up doesn't quote the message
I'm replying to, so I can't write my comments in response to specific
passages by the previous person. Not being able to reply in context
is a deal-breaker to me. What do you call "a richer experience",
I wonder.
Regards,
Dominik
--
Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
-- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
6:26 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thursday, 18 October 2018 at 23:04, Dominik wrote:
[...]
So, I tried to answer in one of the threads and it's quite difficult,
in my opinion. The message compose pop-up doesn't quote the message
I'm replying to, so I can't write my comments in response to specific
passages by the previous person. Not being able to reply in context
is a deal-breaker to me. What do you call "a richer experience",
I wonder.
In Discourse you have two options:
1. Quote the whole post: first hit reply, then click on the bubble icon to quote the whole
post you are replying to.
2. Quote part of the message: select the text you want to quote with the mouse and a Quote
button will pop up; click on it and you are ready to reply.
See this cheat sheet: https://www.sitepoint.com/community/t/discourse-cheat-sheet/733
BTW, Hyperkitty doesn't have the partial quoting feature AFAICT.
11:24 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 13:14 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
I'm curious what is insufficient about Hyperkitty that Discourse does
well at. Wasn't Hyperkitty supposed to give people the forum
experience? I admit I haven't used it that much for reading or posting
(though I do use it for archive links sometimes and it seems fine for
that), since I really like the e-mail interface, so I am not familiar
with how nice or un-nice it is to use.
I'm replying from Hyperkitty interface.
I clicked on Quote to quote your email, Randy, but your words appear as written by
Matthew. Not good...
Also it seems there's no way to mark a thread as read/unread or special.
I have the feeling that following a list in Hyperkitty is almost impossible (but I may be
missing something as I'm new to it).
11:42 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
So our Hyperkitty version is old here. I can't reporduce the issue on
mailman3.org's HK, which is newer. I suspect this is a bug that's been fixed.
~m
12:32 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Máirín Duffy wrote:
So our Hyperkitty version is old here. I can't reporduce the
issue on mailman3.org's HK, which is newer. I suspect this is a bug that's been
fixed.
Indeed it was. An infrastructure ticket was filed ~7 months
back¹ and the issue was addressed upstream in 7558682 ("Fix
quoting of nested replies", 2018-04-24)².
The issue was that hyperkitty simply didn't include any
attribution of the quoted text, while many users assumed it
did and was quoting the wrong person.
Updating to hyperkitty >= 1.2.0 should resolve the issue.
Or the relatively small patch could be applied to our
instance -- if updating is a problem.
¹ https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/6802
² https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/commit/7558682
--
Todd
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable. Let us prepare
to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it
after all.
-- Douglas Adams
11:42 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
I'm replying from Hyperkitty interface.
I clicked on Quote to quote your email, Randy, but your words appear as written by
Matthew. Not good...
Also it seems there's no way to mark a thread as read/unread or special.
I have the feeling that following a list in Hyperkitty is almost impossible (but I may
be
missing something as I'm new to it).
Now quoting myself and no name appears.
I was wrong about the read/unread thing. After you visited a link, the thread won't
have the envelope icon anymore, *but only after you refreshed the page*. It would be nice
to have an immediate update.
Visually the read/unread difference should be highlighted more: for example, unread may
have some color background.
I have to understand yet how to flag a conversation. Flag = star?
https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/80
There's a _user_ documentation or a help page for Hyperkitty?
11:51 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 13:14 -0400, Randy Barlow (manually corrected)
wrote:
I'm curious what is insufficient about Hyperkitty that Discourse does
well at.
A lot of stuff.
If you try any Discourse website out there you'll see it immediately.
Just an example.
In Hyperkitty, when a new unread message appears in a thread and you click on it, you
don't jump to the unread but start from the beginning and you have to search around to
guess what's the new message. This is a big showstopper.
In Discourse the usability is just miles ahead.
2:36 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Randy Barlow <bowlofeggs(a)fedoraproject.org> writes:
On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 13:14 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> Discourse is *definitely* not a smooth, drop-in mailing list
> replacement
> like Hyperkitty is.
I'm curious what is insufficient about Hyperkitty that Discourse does
well at.
Badges, those are super important. I already have the "First Emoji" and
"First Quote" badge on Discourse and I can't wait to get the "First
Bold
Markup" one.
;-)
12:02 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
>>>> "GBC" == Gerald B Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us>
writes:
> People
GBC> keep saying it isn't sufficient or it
doesn't work. I've been
GBC> using it for 3 days and looks and acts like a normal mailing list.
GBC> _______________________________________________ devel mailing list
GBC> -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to
GBC> devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct:
GBC> https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines:
GBC> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List
GBC> Archives:
GBC> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
--
Jason L Tibbitts III - tibbs(a)math.uh.edu - 713/743-3486 - 660PGH
System Manager: University of Houston Department of Mathematics
12:31 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
>>>> "GBC" == Gerald B Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us>
writes:
GBC> People keep saying it isn't sufficient or it doesn't work. I've
GBC> been using it for 3 days and looks and acts like a normal mailing
GBC> list.
And I've been using it since the RT project switched a couple of years
ago. And... it doesn't really look and act like a normal mailing list.
Putting aside the issues with formatting of messages which is discussed
elsewhere in this thread, certainly it generates messages and accepts
replies and so technically it's a mailing list. But as a medium for
discussion which involves email, it simply doesn't work out. the system
appears to either foster or encourage changes which result in the
delivered messages being less useful than messages from a mailing list.
The fundamental problem is that web forums tend to make less use of
quoting. The end result is similar to top-posting, but in the other
direction. Instead of complete "context" that's primarily useless, the
result is no context at all. So you have to browse the rest of the
thread in your email program (which thankfully is still possible) or
click over to the web site. Neither is ideal.
So, really, you've used it for a couple of days, have declared it fine,
and then boldly declared "Fedora should replace mailing lists with
Discourse". But I've used it for a bit longer, and my experience has
simply been negative. The discourse system simply does not serve to
foster email-based discussion.
- J<
12:41 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:31 AM Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs(a)math.uh.edu>
wrote:
>>>>> "GBC" == Gerald B Cox
<gbcox(a)bzb.us> writes:
GBC> People keep saying it isn't sufficient or it doesn't work. I've
GBC> been using it for 3 days and looks and acts like a normal mailing
GBC> list.
And I've been using it since the RT project switched a couple of years
ago. And... it doesn't really look and act like a normal mailing list.
Putting aside the issues with formatting of messages which is discussed
elsewhere in this thread, certainly it generates messages and accepts
replies and so technically it's a mailing list. But as a medium for
discussion which involves email, it simply doesn't work out. the system
appears to either foster or encourage changes which result in the
delivered messages being less useful than messages from a mailing list.
The fundamental problem is that web forums tend to make less use of
quoting. The end result is similar to top-posting, but in the other
direction. Instead of complete "context" that's primarily useless, the
result is no context at all. So you have to browse the rest of the
thread in your email program (which thankfully is still possible) or
click over to the web site. Neither is ideal.
So, really, you've used it for a couple of days, have declared it fine,
and then boldly declared "Fedora should replace mailing lists with
Discourse". But I've used it for a bit longer, and my experience has
simply been negative. The discourse system simply does not serve to
foster email-based discussion.
Yes, I've only used it for a few days - but I disagree with your wholesale
assumption regarding
context. There have been countless times when I've started reading a topic
mid discussion for
various reasons and I have no idea what the original point was. I then
either have to trudge through
my mail archives or go to the website and search through the entire topic
to understand what is going on.
IMO, it's easier to do that with discourse than with the mailing list.
1:54 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 2018-10-17 13:41, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:31 AM Jason L Tibbitts III
<tibbs(a)math.uh.edu <mailto:tibbs@math.uh.edu>> wrote:
>>>>> "GBC" == Gerald B Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us
<mailto:gbcox@bzb.us>>
writes:
GBC> People keep saying it isn't sufficient or it doesn't work. I've
GBC> been using it for 3 days and looks and acts like a normal mailing
GBC> list.
And I've been using it since the RT project switched a couple of years
ago. And... it doesn't really look and act like a normal mailing
list.
Putting aside the issues with formatting of messages which is
discussed
elsewhere in this thread, certainly it generates messages and accepts
replies and so technically it's a mailing list. But as a medium for
discussion which involves email, it simply doesn't work out. the
system
appears to either foster or encourage changes which result in the
delivered messages being less useful than messages from a mailing
list.
The fundamental problem is that web forums tend to make less use of
quoting. The end result is similar to top-posting, but in the other
direction. Instead of complete "context" that's primarily
useless, the
result is no context at all. So you have to browse the rest of the
thread in your email program (which thankfully is still possible) or
click over to the web site. Neither is ideal.
So, really, you've used it for a couple of days, have declared it
fine,
and then boldly declared "Fedora should replace mailing lists with
Discourse". But I've used it for a bit longer, and my experience has
simply been negative. The discourse system simply does not serve to
foster email-based discussion.
Yes, I've only used it for a few days - but I disagree with your
wholesale assumption regarding
context. There have been countless times when I've started reading a
topic mid discussion for
various reasons and I have no idea what the original point was. I
then either have to trudge through
my mail archives or go to the website and search through the entire
topic to understand what is going on.
IMO, it's easier to do that with discourse than with the mailing list.
I've never used Discourse other than to do a very quick perusal these
last few days when this came up. I am quite familiar with the forum
model however. How does Discourse handle posts you've already read in a
thread that's still active. With things like reddit or LWN, you get to
read it over and over and over again if you really want to see whats new
now. With my mail client, it's extremely easy and effective to put it
into threaded mode and highlight the unread (or filter out the already
read). With that, I can usually follow along very easily. Yes,
sometimes I need to go back in the thread to get context. But its rare
that I'll go back to a thread on a forum to find new comments later on
once I've read many already. That's like watching a movie, getting a
third of the way through it and realizing you've seen it before.
Now for historical review where a thread is dead, something like
Discourse would be great due to the cleanliness of not having repeated
context. But that's an entirely different use-case and not the primary one.
2:15 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 1:55 PM John Florian <jflorian(a)doubledog.org> wrote:
How does Discourse handle posts you've already read in a thread that's still
active. With things like reddit or LWN, you get to read it over and over and over again
if you really want to see whats new now.
Discourse handles this quite well actually, as long as you're logged
in. It will keep track of the last post you've seen as well as show
you counts of new messages in a particular thread. I wouldn't claim
that it's as good as an email client but it's much better than other
forums and comment sites.
--
Jeff Ollie
The majestik møøse is one of the mäni interesting furry animals in Sweden.
5:09 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wednesday, 17 October 2018 at 21:15, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 1:55 PM John Florian
<jflorian(a)doubledog.org> wrote:
>
> How does Discourse handle posts you've already read in a thread that's still
active. With things like reddit or LWN, you get to read it over and over and over again
if you really want to see whats new now.
Discourse handles this quite well actually, as long as you're logged
in. It will keep track of the last post you've seen as well as show
you counts of new messages in a particular thread. I wouldn't claim
that it's as good as an email client but it's much better than other
forums and comment sites.
How does it "know" I read a particular message over e-mail when I access
it again over the web interface? I think I can answer that without
checking: it doesn't, so you are forced to re-read or at least click
through the messages you read already in your e-mail client.
If it had a login-only NNTP interface then it would be possible to sync
"read" messages status between web and NNTP. And that would actually be
pretty cool.
Regards,
Dominik
--
Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
-- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
3:27 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 02:54:23PM -0400, John Florian wrote:
With things like reddit or LWN, you get to read it
over and over and over again if you really want to see whats new now.
https://lwn.net/Comments/unread will show you comments posted
afteryour last visit, with one post in grey to provide context.
Requires subscription, though.
--
Tomasz .. oo o. oo o. .o .o o. o. oo o. ..
Torcz .. .o .o .o .o oo oo .o .. .. oo oo
o.o.o. .o .. o. o. o. o. o. o. oo .. .. o.
9:41 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/17/18 4:27 PM, Tomasz Torcz wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 02:54:23PM -0400, John Florian wrote:
> With things like reddit or LWN, you get to read it
> over and over and over again if you really want to see whats new now.
https://lwn.net/Comments/unread will show you comments posted
afteryour last visit, with one post in grey to provide context.
Requires subscription, though.
Ha! All these years later and now I learn this. Thanks Tomasz for
sharing that. And my apologies to Corbet and friends for my lack of
awareness.
This is exactly why I love being wrong.
6:35 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 2018-10-17 13:41, John Florian wrote:
How does Discourse handle posts you've already read in a
thread that's still active. With things like reddit or LWN, you get to
read it over and over and over again if you really want to see whats new
now.
It handles it very well.
You don't have to read it over and over; just click on the thread and you'll jump
to the first unread message.
4:05 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 01:35:01PM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
Ah nice side-thing I just found out, discussion.fedoraproject.org
does
not show *anything* unless I let my browser access this website
http://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com
That's because we're using the hosted option. We could instead decide to
host ourselves; we didn't want to do that for the initial experiment. But,
actually, this is not nefarious. I encourage you to actually load that page
and see what is there. Or, actually, it's short, so I'll copy it here:
What is this site?
==================
As defined in Best Practices for Speeding Up Your Web Site, this is a domain
operated by discourse.org for quickly serving static assets that make up
hosted Discourse forums:
1. We use a lightweight, minimal web server for serving simple static files
as quickly as possible.
2. Using a different domain name increases the number of parallel downloads
that the browser can perform.
3. Using a different domain name means browser cookies are not sent or
attached to requests to this domain, reducing traffic and roundtrip
times, and increasing cacheability.
4. The files are centralized (served from a single domain) and static (they
do not change often), and thus gain maximum benefit from a CDN (content
delivery network) which can send those files from the internal node
geographically closest to the user requesting them.
What is served from this domain?
================================
Static assets necessary for a discourse.org forum to operate, such as site
logos, JavaScript code, and images in posts. If you view source on the
hosted Discourse forum page and search for "CDN", you'll see exactly which
assets are served from this domain.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
1:06 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:32 AM Simo Sorce <simo(a)redhat.com> wrote:
On Tue, 2018-10-16 at 07:12 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
From the foreman post, in the comments:
Email interface does not really work, there should be rather called
“notifications”. You must visit the site eventually.
I personally find this a fatal flaw, I do not have time to waste
visiting slow websites for each project I follow. If I have to switch
away from my mail client I just end up unfollowing the project unless I
am focusing specifically on it at that time.
> It really is a much better solution.
Better for whom and for what purpose ?
I am sure it won't be better for me, all "web forums" I ever used made
for my disappearence from the platform as it was too expensive (time-
wise) for me to keep up.
Simo.
I believe that commenter was confusing notification mode with mail list
mode:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/what-is-mailing-list-mode/46008/9
But with that said, he still closes with:
'"Now, to the point. I think the change was for the good. Thanks for the
report."
3:30 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
So, my opinion on email vs. web forum is that it is comes down to
freedom vs. lock-in.
With mailing lists (and Usenet), messages are distributed in a
more-or-less well-defined format, and users are able to choose clients,
filtering, etc. to suit their use patterns. Sometimes people do novel
things that help them handle volume, find and track topics they are
interested in, etc.
With a web forum, users are limited to consuming content in the way the
forum developer created, as chosen to be applied by the system managers.
Rarely do users have any control over how they access the content, and
they still only can control it in the way the developers thought of,
implemented, tested, and continue to support. I've used web forums
where a function I used regularly went away with an upgrade because the
developers didn't think enough people used them and didn't want to
support them anymore.
Now, that freedom to do as you please has kind of fallen by the wayside
on the Internet in general; personal blogs went to hosted blogs (with
more uniform interfaces) and then on to mass-hosted social media (with
an interface decided entirely by the company running it). So maybe I'm
just old-fashioned that way and not enough other people care.
I'll admit up front that I haven't checked out Discourse yet. However,
I haven't seen before anything that handles the way I consume email,
especially mailing lists. I'll keep selected messages of a thread
around for later reference, flag messages so they'll be highlighted when
I open a folder in the future, filter out certain keywords or posters on
rare occasions, and more - and that's just off the top of my head.
Also, I follow a bunch of different mailing lists. If they all were web
forums, I'd have a bunch of different interfaces to deal with, sites to
visit, functionality to learn, etc., instead of my single mail client
that I can tweak to my personal use patterns and can bring it all
together.
--
Chris Adams <linux(a)cmadams.net>
4:32 p.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Chris Adams <linux(a)cmadams.net> wrote:
So, my opinion on email vs. web forum is that it is comes down to
freedom vs. lock-in.
Right. What does migration out of Discourse look like?
--
Chris Murphy
4:59 a.m.
New subject: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, 2018-10-16 at 07:12 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:21 AM Matthew Miller <
mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
...
> That's why the general trend is *away* from email.
>
> The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in
this way,
> and
https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
> is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who
might have
> some ... trepidation.
>
> I'm not sayin' we are ready to shut this list down, but it's
honestly worth
> considering if a different approach will be more effective.
Before the daggers come out.... please take some time to checkout
Fedora Discourse
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/ and read the Foreman community
link above.
I really hope not.
Discourse web interface is bloated and painful to work with.
As I had previously mentioned, Discourse allows for RSS feeds and
email notifications. It also has a mailing list mode.
It really is a much better solution.
It isn't, even in mailing mode discourse sends HTML messages which
makes email responses almost impossible and force you to use the
bloated web interface.
--
David
7:56 a.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 4:33 PM Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline replies.
Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
lists. Gmail, both on the web and _especially_ on mobile, makes it almost
impossible to do quoting and inline replies properly. I can't imagine other
big consumer email providers are much better.
Yes, this sucks for having nuanced point-by-point discussions. But I don't
think that's a tide we're really going to hold back. We should look at other
tools that fit with the way people do asynchronous online discussion today.
As Brian noted, we're trying out Discourse at https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/
— if you're interested in trying it out, come join the conversation there.
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
Please no. No more Discourse. Having already stopped keeping
up with
one major project (Chef.io) because of that switch.Far easier to live
with how broken gmail is and possibly just stripping out html content,
then trying force web forum software into being useful.
8:58 a.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:33 PM Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline replies.
Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
lists. Gmail, both on the web and _especially_ on mobile, makes it almost
impossible to do quoting and inline replies properly. I can't imagine other
big consumer email providers are much better.
Yes, this sucks for having nuanced point-by-point discussions. But I don't
think that's a tide we're really going to hold back. We should look at other
tools that fit with the way people do asynchronous online discussion today.
As Brian noted, we're trying out Discourse at https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/
— if you're interested in trying it out, come join the conversation there.
Completely agree - and discourse is a great solution. It allows for
RSS feeds and
email notifications = participation is a click away. Your email inbox
is no longer cluttered
with hard to follow threads, nor do you have to worry about using
space to archive conversations which
are important to you... just use the bookmark feature.
9:06 a.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
On Tue, Oct 09, 2018 at 06:58:27AM -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
Completely agree - and discourse is a great solution. It allows for
RSS feeds and
email notifications = participation is a click away. Your email inbox
is no longer cluttered
with hard to follow threads, nor do you have to worry about using
space to archive conversations which
are important to you... just use the bookmark feature.
One click is too much for my terminal email client via SSH on my
phone. My email client already supports filtering into separate
mailboxes for each list and also supports threads shown in a
hierarchy. If Fedora lists go away in favor of a web forum, I will
probably just not participate anymore.
9:23 a.m.
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On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 7:06 AM Anderson, Charles R <cra(a)wpi.edu> wrote:
One click is too much for my terminal email client via SSH on my
phone. My email client already supports filtering into separate
mailboxes for each list and also supports threads shown in a
hierarchy. If Fedora lists go away in favor of a web forum, I will
probably just not participate anymore.
I just tried it out and found it incredibly easy to use. Not only
that, noticed I had
made an error in my post and was able to simply edit it. Easily setup
a rss feed for
notifications. Love it.
2:11 p.m.
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On 10/09/2018 04:06 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
One click is too much for my terminal email client via SSH on my
phone. My email client already supports filtering into separate
mailboxes for each list and also supports threads shown in a
hierarchy. If Fedora lists go away in favor of a web forum, I will
probably just not participate anymore.
That's more or less the same for me.
My fetchmail, procmail and thunderbird setup gives me a way to
keep an eye on this (and many other mailing lists) without much effort.
I will not consider switching to a forum based website, since
my experience with projects using them has been discouraging.
Any "mailing list mode" will be a second class citizen, with
limitations and constant babysitting, and certainly due to be removed
in the future because "most of our users are using the web UI".
I'll probably not follow Fedora anymore.
My folders contain all fedora and fedora-devel mails
since my subscription, on 24/12/2005 (that is, Fedora 4),
not sure if there will be a 2019 folder.
Regards.
--
Roberto Ragusa mail at robertoragusa.it
4:17 p.m.
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On 04 Oct 2018, at 23:32, Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline
replies.
Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
lists. Gmail, both on the web and _especially_ on mobile, makes it almost
impossible to do quoting and inline replies properly. I can't imagine other
big consumer email providers are much better.
Top posting rules where people talk at each other. This is common in the corporate world
where email is treated like letter writing.
When people are having a conversation with each other, you reply like this. In the
corporate world, I often see people struggle putting their responses in red text, or in
caps, instead of quoting properly. Quoting properly isn’t “old school” or “hold out”, it’s
basic courtesy.
I don’t find quoting on mobile particularly difficult (speaking for iPhone).
Regards,
Graham
—
6:27 p.m.
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I suggest that if we think this is a serious issue and that we want
to
get the maximum possible help to those who are forced to pay by the
bit that we stop sending them mail they don't need all together. Lets
move this mailing list (and others) to discussion.fedoraproject.org.
Why switch,
when we already have
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
? it does good quoting already, you get to click what you want, and i'm guessing this
reply i'm sending will show up plaintext.
Ray
8:07 p.m.
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On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 7:27 PM Ray Strode <rstrode(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> I suggest that if we think this is a serious issue and that we want to
> get the maximum possible help to those who are forced to pay by the
> bit that we stop sending them mail they don't need all together. Lets
> move this mailing list (and others) to discussion.fedoraproject.org.
Why switch, when we already have
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
? it does good quoting already, you get to click what you want, and i'm guessing
this reply i'm sending will show up plaintext.
You are correct. It worked exactly like that. However, it seems like
there just simply wasn't much in the way of promoting the HyperKitty
interface after the initial growing pains of deploying it and
converting everything over.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
10:09 a.m.
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On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:27:02PM -0000, Ray Strode wrote:
Why switch, when we already have
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
? it does good quoting already, you get to click what you want, and i'm
guessing this reply i'm sending will show up plaintext.
Unfortunately, all is not rosy there. See this thread on the users' list
from this fall about confusion with hyperkitty quoting:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.o...
(Look back at your message I'm replying to here, and note that the standard
attribution line is missing. And that's not the only issue identified.)
Additionally, when one does reply, it's just using the standard web browser
text box, and to my knowledge that doesn't have an easy "delete by line"
keyboard command, let alone things like smart reflow with quoting. So that's
not super-ideal for inline replies. Hyperkitty's threaded view also is
rudimentary compared to a good mail client.
All of this stuff would be something we could invest development resources
in and make better, but we don't really _have_ those resources, and no
significant outside-of-fedora hyperkitty development community ever
developed. We're left with some pretty awful things like the prominent "Sign
Up" button on every Fedora list leading to a big, ugly "Sign Up Closed: We
are sorry, but the sign up is currently closed" screen — which is not very
inviting, to say the least.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
10:13 a.m.
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On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 11:11 AM Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:27:02PM -0000, Ray Strode wrote:
> Why switch, when we already have
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> ? it does good quoting already, you get to click what you want, and i'm
> guessing this reply i'm sending will show up plaintext.
Unfortunately, all is not rosy there. See this thread on the users' list
from this fall about confusion with hyperkitty quoting:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.o...
(Look back at your message I'm replying to here, and note that the standard
attribution line is missing. And that's not the only issue identified.)
Additionally, when one does reply, it's just using the standard web browser
text box, and to my knowledge that doesn't have an easy "delete by line"
keyboard command, let alone things like smart reflow with quoting. So that's
not super-ideal for inline replies. Hyperkitty's threaded view also is
rudimentary compared to a good mail client.
All of this stuff would be something we could invest development resources
in and make better, but we don't really _have_ those resources, and no
significant outside-of-fedora hyperkitty development community ever
developed. We're left with some pretty awful things like the prominent "Sign
Up" button on every Fedora list leading to a big, ugly "Sign Up Closed: We
are sorry, but the sign up is currently closed" screen — which is not very
inviting, to say the least.
Python is migrating to Mailman 3 now:
https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/
And there's interest in the openSUSE community to switch from mlmmj to
Mailman 3 with HyperKitty.
So the community *is* developing, it's just much later than probably expected.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
10:53 p.m.
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On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:27:02PM -0000, Ray Strode wrote:
Unfortunately, all is not rosy there. See this thread on the users' list
from this fall about confusion with hyperkitty quoting:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.o...
It's hilarious reading this thread in Hyperkitty and having absolutely no issue
understanding which quote is from whom.
(Look back at your message I'm replying to here, and note that
the standard
attribution line is missing. And that's not the only issue identified.)
Additionally, when one does reply, it's just using the standard web browser
text box, and to my knowledge that doesn't have an easy "delete by line"
keyboard command, let alone things like smart reflow with quoting.
These sound like good enhancement features that are likely not essential for the core
target user.
So that's
not super-ideal for inline replies. Hyperkitty's threaded view
also is
rudimentary compared to a good mail client.
All of this stuff would be something we could invest development resources
in and make better, but we don't really _have_ those resources,
But we can file bugs against Discourse and they will be magically and quickly fixed to our
satisfaction, yes?
We can invest money and resources into Discourse deployment, and time and effort trying to
convert each ML over to it one by one, dealing with all of the existing docs and pointers
to MLs and updating them, no sweat?
Threading is something I could fix on the front end with some backend help. Is anybody
handy with Django who is interested?
Is that the biggest issue to tackle?
I'm concerned that those proposing Discourse seem to not have used Hyperkitty at
length.
and no
significant outside-of-fedora hyperkitty development community ever
developed. We're left with some pretty awful things like the prominent "Sign
Up" button on every Fedora list leading to a big, ugly "Sign Up Closed: We
are sorry, but the sign up is currently closed" screen — which is not very
inviting, to say the least.
I have no idea what that is, but it sounds like a minor bug that probably isn't
difficult to fix.
But sure let's split our community over that.
~m
11:09 p.m.
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Il giorno ven 19 ott 2018 alle 5:53, =?iso-8859-1?b?TeFpcu1u?= Duffy
<duffy(a)fedoraproject.org> ha scritto:
I'm concerned that those proposing Discourse seem to not have used
Hyperkitty at length.
I'm one of those.
I've never used Hyperkitty before, but I'll give it a try now.
6:26 a.m.
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On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 03:53:06AM -0000, Máirín Duffy wrote:
But we can file bugs against Discourse and they will be magically
and
quickly fixed to our satisfaction, yes?
Of course not. However: development is very active.
https://github.com/discourse/discourse/commits/master
I'm concerned that those proposing Discourse seem to not have
used
Hyperkitty at length.
As you know, I was very excited about HyperKitty. I *did* try it very
seriously at first, but not at length, because it quickly became apparent
that it wasn't really up to the task of being my primary interface to email.
I just couldn't use it for day-to-day communication. Not necessarily any
single thing, but lots and lots of fundamentals. How do I get a list of new
threads? How do I get a list of threads I've read but which have new
responses, and ideally show only the new responses? How can I mute a thread
I don't want to be alerted on? How do I get to the next thread from the
*bottom* of a thread I just read? How can I search... usefully at all? My
point isn't to rag on HyperKitty, but I could definitely go on.
I tried for a while to file suggestions and bug reports, but especially
after the extra two years it took to even get deployed, it was *very* clear
there were no resources for ongoing development from Red Hat, no significant
non-RH Fedora development, and no meaningful outside development either.
Basic things like https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/64 didn't
even get *responses*. So, I stuck with my previous email client setup.
And the thing is, it's *not just me*. Take a look at
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/
right now. Every single thread shows a "meh" face and "+0/-0". It
says
Most popular discussions
No vote has been cast this month (yet).
It is the 19th of the month. Not a single vote on our most busy mailing
list. The same is true for every other list I looked at. People just aren't
using this.
I *really* think HyperKitty has potential. But we can't run on potential.
Discourse is a pure open source project that is *really catching on and
successful*. It's not perfect either, of course, but we're way better off
aligning with something with momentum.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
8:20 a.m.
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On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 4:26 AM Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
wrote:
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 03:53:06AM -0000, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> But we can file bugs against Discourse and they will be magically and
> quickly fixed to our satisfaction, yes?
Of course not. However: development is very active.
https://github.com/discourse/discourse/commits/master
> I'm concerned that those proposing Discourse seem to not have used
> Hyperkitty at length.
As you know, I was very excited about HyperKitty. I *did* try it very
seriously at first, but not at length, because it quickly became apparent
that it wasn't really up to the task of being my primary interface to
email.
I just couldn't use it for day-to-day communication. Not necessarily any
single thing, but lots and lots of fundamentals. How do I get a list of new
threads? How do I get a list of threads I've read but which have new
responses, and ideally show only the new responses? How can I mute a thread
I don't want to be alerted on? How do I get to the next thread from the
*bottom* of a thread I just read? How can I search... usefully at all? My
point isn't to rag on HyperKitty, but I could definitely go on.
I tried for a while to file suggestions and bug reports, but especially
after the extra two years it took to even get deployed, it was *very* clear
there were no resources for ongoing development from Red Hat, no
significant
non-RH Fedora development, and no meaningful outside development either.
Basic things like https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/64 didn't
even get *responses*. So, I stuck with my previous email client setup.
And the thing is, it's *not just me*. Take a look at
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/
right now. Every single thread shows a "meh" face and "+0/-0". It
says
Most popular discussions
No vote has been cast this month (yet).
It is the 19th of the month. Not a single vote on our most busy mailing
list. The same is true for every other list I looked at. People just aren't
using this.
I *really* think HyperKitty has potential. But we can't run on potential.
Discourse is a pure open source project that is *really catching on and
successful*. It's not perfect either, of course, but we're way better off
aligning with something with momentum.
Completely agree - well stated. It's quite obvious when using both tools
which lends itself
to better conversation and collaboration. I realize people are resistant
to change - but once
they start to use and learn about the new features and functionality - most
people come around.
Sometimes people need a nudge to change and adapt - myself included. It's
just human nature -
but as I get older, I try to keep an open mind and be adaptable.
5:28 p.m.
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I just couldn't use it for day-to-day communication. Not
necessarily any
single thing, but lots and lots of fundamentals. How do I get a list of new
threads? How do I get a list of threads I've read but which have new
responses, and ideally show only the new responses? How can I mute a thread
I don't want to be alerted on? How do I get to the next thread from the
*bottom* of a thread I just read? How can I search... usefully at all? My
point isn't to rag on HyperKitty, but I could definitely go on.
Please do. Neal and I are starting up an effort. I reached out to Abhilash, the upstream
lead, last night on the devel list and he was very responsive to this idea. He's
already created a gitlab subproject for our efforts upstream.
I tried for a while to file suggestions and bug reports, but
especially
after the extra two years it took to even get deployed, it was *very* clear
there were no resources for ongoing development from Red Hat, no significant
non-RH Fedora development, and no meaningful outside development either.
Basic things like https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/64 didn't
even get *responses*. So, I stuck with my previous email client setup.
And the thing is, it's *not just me*. Take a look at
It is the 19th of the month. Not a single vote on our most busy mailing
list. The same is true for every other list I looked at. People just aren't
using this.
Matthew, the target user for Hyperkitty isn't a devel-list reader.
~m
2:40 a.m.
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On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 12:29 AM Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> I just couldn't use it for day-to-day communication. Not necessarily any
> single thing, but lots and lots of fundamentals. How do I get a list of new
> threads? How do I get a list of threads I've read but which have new
> responses, and ideally show only the new responses? How can I mute a thread
> I don't want to be alerted on? How do I get to the next thread from the
> *bottom* of a thread I just read? How can I search... usefully at all? My
> point isn't to rag on HyperKitty, but I could definitely go on.
Please do. Neal and I are starting up an effort. I reached out to Abhilash, the upstream
lead, last night on the devel list and he was very responsive to this idea. He's
already created a gitlab subproject for our efforts upstream.
> I tried for a while to file suggestions and bug reports, but especially
> after the extra two years it took to even get deployed, it was *very* clear
> there were no resources for ongoing development from Red Hat, no significant
> non-RH Fedora development, and no meaningful outside development either.
> Basic things like https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/64 didn't
> even get *responses*. So, I stuck with my previous email client setup.
>
> And the thing is, it's *not just me*. Take a look at
>
> It is the 19th of the month. Not a single vote on our most busy mailing
> list. The same is true for every other list I looked at. People just aren't
> using this.
Matthew, the target user for Hyperkitty isn't a devel-list reader.
Can you share more information about the target audience? I read
through the non-install docs at hyperkitty.readthedocs.io which is
where the Gitlab project sent me. I could only find statements about
the shortcomings with Pipermail the project was trying to fix. I did
not see a target user statement or find one for Pipermail.
Thanks,
bex
~m
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Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
@bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
9:19 a.m.
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Check my blog, where there are even scans of the napkin sketches. Or Google
"hyperkitty ux" my blog and my outreachy interns blog pop up.
~m
9:40 a.m.
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On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 4:19 PM Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
Check my blog, where there are even scans of the napkin sketches. Or Google
"hyperkitty ux" my blog and my outreachy interns blog pop up.
Is this in response to my question? For some reason many of your
emails have no quoting or context.
If this is, why has the project chosen to not document that in their
code/docs? That would, it seems, help contributors stay focused on
the goal.
regards,
bex
~m
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Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
@bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
3:12 p.m.
New subject: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail
If this is, why has the project chosen to not document that in their
code/docs? That would, it seems, help contributors stay focused on
the goal.
https://wiki.list.org/DEV/Home?action=show&redirect=DEV
I went to list.org, clicked on developer wiki, it's on the front page.
This is veering a bit off topic now and I smell unnecessary snark. Something, btw, I'm
sure happens on Discourse.
~m
2:44 a.m.
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On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 10:12 PM Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> If this is, why has the project chosen to not document that in their
> code/docs? That would, it seems, help contributors stay focused on
> the goal.
>
https://wiki.list.org/DEV/Home?action=show&redirect=DEV
I went to list.org, clicked on developer wiki, it's on the front page.
Interesting. I went to my search engine of choice and typed in
hyperkitty. The first two links were:
https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty
and
https://hyperkitty.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
These felt fully authoritative and I did not notice a link to the url you cite.
This is veering a bit off topic now and I smell unnecessary snark.
Something, btw, I'm sure happens on Discourse.
The question was genuine. Additionally, even at this site, the user
profile doesn't seem to be present. I believe it can be gathered from
reading every blog you have linked and all of the associated comments.
This seems rather fragile as it is a long spin-up time and if your
blog goes away, we have no user profile.
Unrelated, if you have edit rights on that page, the GitHub link is
out of date and the page still refers to Fedora Hosted.
regards,
bex
~m
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--
Brian (bex) Exelbierd | bexelbie(a)redhat.com | bex(a)pobox.com
Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
@bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
12:55 p.m.
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Brian (bex) Exelbierd writes:
The question was genuine. Additionally, even at this site, the user
profile doesn't seem to be present.
I doubt there is a user profile chapter or page for HyperKitty at the
Mailman project. If there is one, it would be in the HyperKitty docs
themselves.
Unrelated, if you have edit rights on that page, the GitHub link is
out of date and the page still refers to Fedora Hosted.
I hope you don't mean the Mailman wiki DEV/Home page? Couldn't find
either reference there.
Steve
6:45 a.m.
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On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 6:56 PM Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen(a)xemacs.org> wrote:
Brian (bex) Exelbierd writes:
> The question was genuine. Additionally, even at this site, the user
> profile doesn't seem to be present.
I doubt there is a user profile chapter or page for HyperKitty at the
Mailman project. If there is one, it would be in the HyperKitty docs
themselves.
As far as I know it is not and is only present as a set of links to a
personal blog here: https://wiki.list.org/HyperKitty
> Unrelated, if you have edit rights on that page, the GitHub
link is
> out of date and the page still refers to Fedora Hosted.
I hope you don't mean the Mailman wiki DEV/Home page? Couldn't find
either reference there.
This is hte page in question: https://wiki.list.org/HyperKitty
I believe my previous email contained the wrong link because of a cut
and paste error.
regards,
bex
Steve
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Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
@bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
9:25 a.m.
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Oh and I should also point out - you shouldn't have to read all of that, the point was
to make our mailing lists accessible to folks who aren't mailing list users, who are
less technical, younger, etc., to be more conclusive. Same reason Discourse is being
peddled here. Big diff is we keep the mail interface up for exisiting users rather than
dropping them as a target!!
This is why folks are trying to point out here, you may get new users w discourse but they
will be different and you may lose who you have now.
~m
7:56 a.m.
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On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 10:28:45PM -0000, Máirín Duffy wrote:
Please do. Neal and I are starting up an effort. I reached out to
Abhilash, the upstream lead, last night on the devel list and he was very
responsive to this idea. He's already created a gitlab subproject for our
efforts upstream.
Okay; I'll be happy to. But I'll do it separately from this thread.
> list. The same is true for every other list I looked at. People
just aren't
> using this.
Matthew, the target user for Hyperkitty isn't a devel-list reader.
But devel is by far our most active and important list.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
7:58 a.m.
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On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 03:53:06AM -0000, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:27:02PM -0000, Ray Strode wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, all is not rosy there. See this thread on the users' list
> from this fall about confusion with hyperkitty quoting:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.o...
It's hilarious reading this thread in Hyperkitty and having absolutely no issue
understanding which quote is from whom.
You're replying to an email from Matthew but it show here as coming from Ray
Strode. This is the bug Matthew was referring to.
Pierre
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