Plan for tomorrow's (20090821) FESCo meeting

[Jon Stanley]

Apologies for the late agenda, I completely blanked out today :(.  The
following are the topics for tomorrow's meeting at 17:00UTC on
#fedora-meeting on freenode:

244	Reconsider Moblin Feature for Fedora 12
238	Can libvdpau go in Fedora?

For more complete details, please visit each individual ticket.  The
report of the agenda items can be found at
https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/report/9

If you would like to add something to this agenda, you can reply to
this e-mail, file a new ticket at https://fedorahosted.org/fesco,
e-mail me directly, or bring it up at the end of the meeting, during
the open floor.

Thanks!
-Jon

[Jochen Schmitt]

On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:10:59 -0400, you wrote:

> 238	Can libvdpau go in Fedora? 
As far I understand this package itself is open source but has a
dependency to the properitary nVidia video driver which is
provides by rpmfusion.org.

For this reason I vote agains the inclusion of this package into
Fedora because I introduce a requirement reference to a
third-party repository.

Best Regards:

Jochen Schmitt

[Adam Jackson]

On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 15:39 +0200, Jochen Schmitt wrote:
>  On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:10:59 -0400, you wrote:
>  
>  >238	Can libvdpau go in Fedora?
>  
>  As far I understand this package itself is open source but has a
>  dependency to the properitary nVidia video driver which is
>  provides by rpmfusion.org.
>  
>  For this reason I vote agains the inclusion of this package into
>  Fedora because I introduce a requirement reference to a
>  third-party repository. 
I think there's precedents for accepting it for Fedora:

- libXNVCtrl, another X extension library that happens to only do
anything when the user is running the nvidia binary driver, but which is
itself MIT-licensed.

- gstreamer-plugins-flumpegdemux, which allows you to separate the audio
and video streams from MPEG files, even though the decoding itself is
off-limits for Fedora

It happens that only nvidia implements VDPAU at the moment, but so what?
Any other vendor could too.

- ajax

[Jochen Schmitt]

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Am 21.08.2009 15:57, schrieb Adam Jackson:
>  On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 15:39 +0200, Jochen Schmitt wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:10:59 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >> 238    Can libvdpau go in Fedora?
> >
> > As far I understand this package itself is open source but has a
> > dependency to the properitary nVidia video driver which is
> > provides by rpmfusion.org.
> >
> > For this reason I vote agains the inclusion of this package into
> > Fedora because I introduce a requirement reference to a
> > third-party repository.
>
>  I think there's precedents for accepting it for Fedora:
>
>  - libXNVCtrl, another X extension library that happens to only do
>  anything when the user is running the nvidia binary driver, but which is
>  itself MIT-licensed.
>
>  - gstreamer-plugins-flumpegdemux, which allows you to separate the audio
>  and video streams from MPEG files, even though the decoding itself is
>  off-limits for Fedora 
- From my point of view. This cases demostrate, that we need a
clarification about
the requirements which a package has to fullfill for inclusssion into
Fedora.

Package which are only useable if you have installed a package which
is not part
of Fedora may not allow for Fedora. This is the argument why we not
contributes
eumulators. In common emulators requires special ROM images which contains
copyright content.
>  It happens that only nvidia implements VDPAU at the moment, but so what?
>  Any other vendor could too.
>
>  - 
A made dicision may not be valid forever. If we will have got a
opensource package
which allow the usage of vdpau with the close source driver from
nvidia we can change
this dicision.

Best Regards:

Jochen Schmitt

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[Adam Jackson]

On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 16:26 +0200, Jochen Schmitt wrote:

>  - From my point of view. This cases demostrate, that we need a
>  clarification about the requirements which a package has to fullfill
>  for inclusssion into Fedora. 
I don't disagree, but...

>  Package which are only useable if you have installed a package which
>  is not part of Fedora may not allow for Fedora. This is the argument
>  why we not contributes eumulators. In common emulators requires
>  special ROM images which contains copyright content. 
I think this is a faulty generalization.

X is a network protocol.  vdpau and xnvctrl applications can be
perfectly functional running on a Fedora machine with no nvidia driver
installed, if they happen to be talking to some _other_ machine
somewhere in the world that does support those extensions.  One might
argue that this is a trivial distinction, and that it still requires
some non-free blob to be made to work, but to make that assertion you're
basically saying that interoperability is only acceptable if there's
some free implementation of what you're interoperating with.  If you
follow that idea through, you end up removing pilot-link, libgpod...

The emulator rule-of-thumb makes sense to the extent that the emulator
itself is the end goal.  If the only reason you could want it installed
is to play some arcade game ROM then there's pretty clearly no
interoperability argument to be made.  But libvdpau isn't the end goal;
the VDPAU app is the end goal.  libvdpau is just how you get there.

The emulator RoT also assumes that the copyright holder of the magic
bits doesn't _want_ you to use them.  NVIDIA clearly wants people to use
VDPAU.

- ajax

[Jochen Schmitt]

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Am 21.08.2009 17:10, schrieb Adam Jackson:
>  On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 16:26 +0200, Jochen Schmitt wrote:
>
> > - From my point of view. This cases demostrate, that we need a
> > clarification about the requirements which a package has to
> > fullfill for inclusssion into Fedora.
>
>  I don't disagree, but...
>
> > Package which are only useable if you have installed a package
> > which is not part of Fedora may not allow for Fedora. This is the
> > argument why we not contributes eumulators. In common emulators
> > requires special ROM images which contains copyright content.
>
>  I think this is a faulty generalization.
>
>  X is a network protocol.  vdpau and xnvctrl applications can be
>  perfectly functional running on a Fedora machine with no nvidia
>  driver installed, if they happen to be talking to some _other_
>  machine somewhere in the world that does support those extensions.
>  One might argue that this is a trivial distinction, and that it
>  still requires some non-free blob to be made to work, but to make
>  that assertion you're basically saying that interoperability is
>  only acceptable if there's some free implementation of what you're
>  interoperating with.  If you follow that idea through, you end up
>  removing pilot-link, libgpod...
>
>  The emulator rule-of-thumb makes sense to the extent that the
>  emulator itself is the end goal.  If the only reason you could want
>  it installed is to play some arcade game ROM then there's pretty
>  clearly no interoperability argument to be made.  But libvdpau
>  isn't the end goal; the VDPAU app is the end goal.  libvdpau is
>  just how you get there.
>
>  The emulator RoT also assumes that the copyright holder of the
>  magic bits doesn't _want_ you to use them.  NVIDIA clearly wants
>  people to use VDPAU.
>
>  - ajax 
Thank you for your explaination. I think we should make a distinct betwenn
a regquirement which must install on the same machine and another
requirement
which is provides by a remote system.

Best Regards:

Jochen Schmitt
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[drago01]

On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Adam Jackson<ajax(a)redhat.com> wrote:
>  On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 15:39 +0200, Jochen Schmitt wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:10:59 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> > >238  Can libvdpau go in Fedora?
> >
> > As far I understand this package itself is open source but has a
> > dependency to the properitary nVidia video driver which is
> > provides by rpmfusion.org.
> >
> > For this reason I vote agains the inclusion of this package into
> > Fedora because I introduce a requirement reference to a
> > third-party repository.
>
>  I think there's precedents for accepting it for Fedora:
>
>  - libXNVCtrl, another X extension library that happens to only do
>  anything when the user is running the nvidia binary driver, but which is
>  itself MIT-licensed.
>
>  - gstreamer-plugins-flumpegdemux, which allows you to separate the audio
>  and video streams from MPEG files, even though the decoding itself is
>  off-limits for Fedora
>
>  It happens that only nvidia implements VDPAU at the moment, but so what?
>  Any other vendor could too. 
Well S3 does, but there driver isn't open either.
But it proves that non nvidia implementations are possible.

[Adam Williamson]

On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 16:51 +0200, drago01 wrote:

>  Well S3 does, but there driver isn't open either.
>  But it proves that non nvidia implementations are possible. 
S3's driver implements VAAPI, not VDPAU. I already have a package review
for libva submitted (mentioned it yesterday).

-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net

[drago01]

On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 5:54 PM, Adam Williamson<awilliam(a)redhat.com> wrote:
>  On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 16:51 +0200, drago01 wrote:
>
> > Well S3 does, but there driver isn't open either.
> > But it proves that non nvidia implementations are possible.
>
>  S3's driver implements VAAPI, not VDPAU. I already have a package review
>  for libva submitted (mentioned it yesterday). 
http://drivers.s3graphics.com/en/download/drivers/chrome5x-Linux/RN_Linux...

hmm?

I have not tested it due to lack of hardware but it says:

06/26/2009: Version 14.02.17
-	Bug Fixes
-	XRandR support
-	VDPAU support
-	KMS Support

SUPPORTED FEATURES

- H/W accelerated 2D (XAA/EXA)
- H/W accelerated direct-rendering OpenG3.0
- H/W accelerated H.264/MPEG2/WMV-9/VC-1 video playback.
- SAMM / Rotation / Xinerama / Compiz
- XRandR support
- VDPAU support
- KMS Support


And there are a lot of VDPAU references in the bug fixed list.

[Adam Williamson]

On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 18:22 +0200, drago01 wrote:
>  On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 5:54 PM, Adam
> Williamson<awilliam(a)redhat.com> wrote:
>  > On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 16:51 +0200, drago01 wrote:
>  >
>  >> Well S3 does, but there driver isn't open either.
>  >> But it proves that non nvidia implementations are possible.
>  >
>  > S3's driver implements VAAPI, not VDPAU. I already have a package review
>  > for libva submitted (mentioned it yesterday).
>  
>  http://drivers.s3graphics.com/en/download/drivers/chrome5x-Linux/RN_Linux...
>  
>  hmm?
>  
>  I have not tested it due to lack of hardware but it says:
>  
>  06/26/2009: Version 14.02.17
>  -	Bug Fixes
>  -	XRandR support
>  -	VDPAU support
>  -	KMS Support
>  
>  SUPPORTED FEATURES
>  
>  - H/W accelerated 2D (XAA/EXA)
>  - H/W accelerated direct-rendering OpenG3.0
>  - H/W accelerated H.264/MPEG2/WMV-9/VC-1 video playback.
>  - SAMM / Rotation / Xinerama / Compiz
>  - XRandR support
>  - VDPAU support
>  - KMS Support
>  
>  
>  And there are a lot of VDPAU references in the bug fixed list. 
Oh, that's interesting. I guess you're right, then. Sorry - I was going
off references from the VAAPI site, I didn't check with the actual
driver package.

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/vaapi lists VIA / S3 Graphics
Accelerated Linux Driver under 'Drivers (back-ends) that implement VA
API'.

Maybe it does both...

[Tom Callaway]

On 08/20/2009 10:10 PM, Jon Stanley wrote:
>  Apologies for the late agenda, I completely blanked out today :(. 
> The
>  following are the topics for tomorrow's meeting at 17:00UTC on
>  #fedora-meeting on freenode:
>  
>  244	Reconsider Moblin Feature for Fedora 12
>  238	Can libvdpau go in Fedora?
>  
>  For more complete details, please visit each individual ticket.  The
>  report of the agenda items can be found at
>  https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/report/9
>  
>  If you would like to add something to this agenda, you can reply to
>  this e-mail, file a new ticket at https://fedorahosted.org/fesco,
>  e-mail me directly, or bring it up at the end of the meeting, during
>  the open floor. 
I'm pretty sure there are several Fedora Packaging Committee items
waiting to be ratified. I think there are at least two tickets still
open in Traaaaaac.

~spot