9:04 a.m.
Sorry if this is off-topic... (If it is, please tell me what list I need
to direct this to).
I know a wee bit about marketing, and I don't know if anyone has brought
it to the attention of those in the know at RH's branding department
about the fact the RH logo is still present in the fedora test2 0.94
release.
I would suggest replacing it with the "favicon" that is present on the
fedora.redhat.com website.
The convention would be that under the Enterprise edition, the RH logo
would be present(on the menu bar and other places), and on Fedora Core,
a Fedora logo would be present. I think the [F] favicon would suffice
in this area unless there is work being done on an official fedora
logo.
The idea, from what I have gathered, is to split out the two identities:
a.) Fedora -- community distro
b.) Redhat -- Enterprise server
Sorry if I've missed something here.
-Trae
10:06 a.m.
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 10:04, Trae McCombs wrote:
I know a wee bit about marketing, and I don't know if anyone has
brought
it to the attention of those in the know at RH's branding department
about the fact the RH logo is still present in the fedora test2 0.94
release.
The hat icon used on the panel isn't the Red Hat logo, it's just a
generic red fedora. The Red Hat logo is the "shadowman" which is the 2D
circle with the man wearing a hat.
The convention would be that under the Enterprise edition, the RH
logo
would be present(on the menu bar and other places), and on Fedora Core,
a Fedora logo would be present. I think the [F] favicon would suffice
in this area unless there is work being done on an official fedora
logo.
The current Fedora site omits a logo so that there's the flexibility to
come up with one at some point.
Havoc
1:19 p.m.
On Sî, 2003-09-27 at 17:04, Trae McCombs wrote:
I would suggest replacing it with the "favicon" that is
present on the
fedora.redhat.com website.
how about replacing it with a graphic that suggest
there's a menu there?
People coming from Windows are used to start by pressing Start, now they
have to press on a hat, very intuitive.
Most usable I could find is
/usr/share/pixmaps/gnome-run.png
but should be something better, made specially for the main menu.
--
Marius Andreiana
LOAD - Linux Open Alternative Days
Specialist Linux, Co-organizator
http://www.load.ro
1:44 p.m.
how about replacing it with a graphic that suggest there's a menu
there?
People coming from Windows are used to start by pressing Start, now they
have to press on a hat, very intuitive.
You know, this is actually a great idea. Should I try and corner
Garrett, Jakub, or Tuomas about doing a mock-up? I know this is opening
pandoras box, and inviting a possible "butter-battle"(see Dr. Seuss),
but I think it helps address something that's been lacking for a while.
I think the better solution to the problem is to have a menu bar
preferences setting for the following:
border relief: on/off
text: [start] (would be nice to be able to edit it in prefs)
change icon: [icon] (this would be nice for those that want to keep
things co-ordinated and not have an icon hard-coded that might not match
their desktop.
Anyhoo... my two pennies...
-trae
1:52 p.m.
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 14:19, Marius Andreiana wrote:
how about replacing it with a graphic that suggest there's a menu
there?
People coming from Windows are used to start by pressing Start, now they
have to press on a hat, very intuitive.
GNOME 2.4 now supports a non-square thing there; ideally I believe it
would be simply text (perhaps saying "Main Menu") plus maybe an arrow
drawn by the theme engine and/or an icon of some kind.
Though I don't think KDE supports a rectangle with text so it introduces
a consistency problem if we do that. Also if using a rectangle we'd
probably want the half-height panel.
Two observations about Longhorn (next-gen windows):
- the panel is on the side, so you have more vertical space for
documents (though I'm not sure where the window list lives)
- they always have text+icon instead of just icon for the
stuff on the panel; all the applets have labels
Havoc
2:15 p.m.
(snip)
Though I don't think KDE supports a rectangle with text so it
introduces
a consistency problem if we do that. Also if using a rectangle we'd
probably want the half-height panel.
Why would it introduce a consistency problem ? If I agree that some
people might use QT (or KDE) apps along with GTK (or GNOME) apps, I
don't see why anyone would want to go from KDE to GNOME and vice-versa
(except testers and hobbyists, who don't really care about those details
anyway IMHO).
So KDE users will be used to the KDE icon and GNOME users to the "Main
menu" text field.
Two observations about Longhorn (next-gen windows):
- the panel is on the side, so you have more vertical space for
documents (though I'm not sure where the window list lives)
Are you sure ? From the screenshots I have seen and what I have read,
the panel is on the bottom (like in other windows versions) but you can
- optionally - have a vertical panel on the right side which mostly
handles additional stuff (like a special clock, a slide show etc...).
(snip)
3:04 p.m.
Havoc Pennington wrote:
Two observations about Longhorn (next-gen windows):
- the panel is on the side, so you have more vertical space for
documents (though I'm not sure where the window list lives)
Which might actually not be so smart and be removed before RTM.
People do not have a square vision as movie makers well know.
One nice side-effect of all the panels, menu/status/tool bars and such
is the working area has actually a wide screen form factor enevn on 4/3
screens.
Regards,
--
Nicolas Mailhot
3:37 p.m.
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 14:15, Julien Olivier wrote:
> Two observations about Longhorn (next-gen windows):
>
> - the panel is on the side, so you have more vertical space for
> documents (though I'm not sure where the window list lives)
Are you sure ? From the screenshots I have seen and what I have read,
the panel is on the bottom (like in other windows versions) but you can
- optionally - have a vertical panel on the right side which mostly
handles additional stuff (like a special clock, a slide show etc...).
I think they've kept the bottom panel, but made the sidebar thing
optional. Here are some Longhorn preview screenies that demonstrate
both behaviors:
http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/longhorn_alpha.asp
-jck
--
"The bugs in Sawfish, and its greater configurability, are not
orthogonal/unrelated facts"
-- Havoc Pennington
11:20 p.m.
On Sep 27, 2003, Havoc Pennington <hp(a)redhat.com> wrote:
The current Fedora site omits a logo so that there's the
flexibility to
come up with one at some point.
/me thinks the Fedora logo should have the capital F turned into a hat
hanger, with a red fedora hanging off of it. Any graphical artists
willing to give it a try?
--
Alexandre Oliva Enjoy Guarana', see http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
Red Hat GCC Developer aoliva(a){redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
CS PhD student at IC-Unicamp oliva(a){lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
Free Software Evangelist Professional serial bug killer
12:38 a.m.
Bill Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 09:06, Havoc Pennington wrote:
>The current Fedora site omits a logo so that there's the flexibility to
>come up with one at some point.
I propose a blue fedora. :)
If it's open to discussion: i have no bias about what color but this
logo sure is too basic... something at least a lil bit flashier wouldnt
do any hard.....
Van
10:05 a.m.
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 02:38:34 -0300
"Rodrigo Del C. Andrade" <fedora_rh(a)terra.com.br> wrote:
Bill Anderson wrote:
> On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 09:06, Havoc Pennington wrote:
>
>
>>The current Fedora site omits a logo so that there's the flexibility to
>>come up with one at some point.
>
>
> I propose a blue fedora. :)
>
If it's open to discussion: i have no bias about what color but this
logo sure is too basic... something at least a lil bit flashier wouldnt
do any hard.....
I hope Fedora sticks to Redhat's roots, meaning a simplistic approach to things
as much as possible. Flash can get ugly
Van
--
fedora-devel-list mailing list
fedora-devel-list(a)redhat.com
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
9:22 p.m.
On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 00:20, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
On Sep 27, 2003, Havoc Pennington <hp(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> The current Fedora site omits a logo so that there's the flexibility to
> come up with one at some point.
/me thinks the Fedora logo should have the capital F turned into a hat
hanger, with a red fedora hanging off of it. Any graphical artists
willing to give it a try?
That's not a good idea - that makes a symbol a meaningful part of the
icon which is completely meaningless to people using languages that
don't use latin letters or have the word 'Fedora'.
As per the GNOME HIG, keep all letters out of icons in all situations -
leave all letters and words to labels that can be easily translated.
--
Sean Middleditch <elanthis(a)awesomeplay.com>
AwesomePlay Productions, Inc.
9:30 p.m.
Sean Middleditch <elanthis(a)awesomeplay.com>:
That's not a good idea - that makes a symbol a meaningful part of
the
icon which is completely meaningless to people using languages that
don't use latin letters or have the word 'Fedora'.
As per the GNOME HIG, keep all letters out of icons in all situations -
leave all letters and words to labels that can be easily translated.
I concur. The GNOME people are correct in this.
--
<a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
9:47 p.m.
New subject: "Fedora" in cultural connotations (Re: redhat logo on gnome menu / menu bar.)
On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 22:22, Sean Middleditch wrote:
That's not a good idea - that makes a symbol a meaningful part of
the
icon which is completely meaningless to people using languages that
don't use latin letters or have the word 'Fedora'.
A bit of a humorous aside -- in popular Russian children's literature,
"Fedora" is the name of a woman who was such a poor housekeeper, that
all her belongings ran away from her screaming, including plates,
silverware, cups and glasses (who all smashed themselves in the process)
so she was left with only cats and roaches for company.
However, the story ends well, as Fedora promises that she'll take much
better care of her stuff, so it returns happily back to her, cooking her
some dinner in the process.
Not really relevant, but "Fedora" is sure to bring up a chuckle or a
grin when mentioned among people who grew up in Russia. The name of the
poem itself is "Fedora's Troubles" (Федорино Горе), so I'm sure
there'll
be plenty of headlines in the Russian IT press playing off of that. :)
Cheers,
--
Konstantin Riabitsev <icon(a)linux.duke.edu>
Linux@DUKE
10:26 p.m.
I see that we've gotten a dialog going here, but is there a
sub-committee of people or something that will work on a solution for
this. If so I'd like to volunteer my expertise and assist in anyway I
can in helping the "UI" team for fedora.
On a note as far as using text... What's wrong with having text? As
long as it's something that can change according to ones language. I'm
sure there is something in the HIG that will tell me, but I can't find
how that pertains to a "start" button.
I do think calling it fedora or something cryptic like that wouldn't be
good.
I can, and don't mind simply posting ideas to the list, but didn't want
to clog things up.
Trae
(ps. ltns Eric :)
On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 22:30, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
Sean Middleditch <elanthis(a)awesomeplay.com>:
> That's not a good idea - that makes a symbol a meaningful part of the
> icon which is completely meaningless to people using languages that
> don't use latin letters or have the word 'Fedora'.
>
> As per the GNOME HIG, keep all letters out of icons in all situations -
> leave all letters and words to labels that can be easily translated.
I concur. The GNOME people are correct in this.
3:44 a.m.
On Sep 28, 2003, Sean Middleditch <elanthis(a)awesomeplay.com> wrote:
That's not a good idea - that makes a symbol a meaningful part of
the
icon which is completely meaningless to people using languages that
don't use latin letters or have the word 'Fedora'.
Icon != Logo. I'm talking about the project logo. Fedora is the name
of the project. You don't translate that, just like Red Hat isn't
called `Chapéu Vermelho' where I live.
--
Alexandre Oliva Enjoy Guarana', see http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
Red Hat GCC Developer aoliva(a){redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
CS PhD student at IC-Unicamp oliva(a){lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
Free Software Evangelist Professional serial bug killer
4:32 a.m.
New subject: "Fedora" in cultural connotations (Re: redhat logo on gnome menu / menu bar.)
Em Segunda, 29 de Setembro de 2003 03:47, Konstantin Riabitsev escreveu:
On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 22:22, Sean Middleditch wrote:
> That's not a good idea - that makes a symbol a meaningful part of the
> icon which is completely meaningless to people using languages that
> don't use latin letters or have the word 'Fedora'.
A bit of a humorous aside -- in popular Russian children's literature,
"Fedora" is the name of a woman who was such a poor housekeeper, that
all her belongings ran away from her screaming, including plates,
silverware, cups and glasses (who all smashed themselves in the process)
so she was left with only cats and roaches for company.
In Portugal the word fedora isn't used directly, but we've got
"fedorenta",
which means something that stinks :-)
Pedro Morais
5:08 a.m.
New subject: "Fedora" in cultural connotations (Re: redhat logo on gnome menu / menu bar.)
Pedro Morais <pmmm(a)rnl.ist.utl.pt>:
In Portugal the word fedora isn't used directly, but we've
got "fedorenta",
which means something that stinks :-)
The rare word 'fetor' in English describes a bad smell, especially an animal
or rotting smell. Clearly a cognate.
--
<a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
8:53 a.m.
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 04:44, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
On Sep 28, 2003, Sean Middleditch <elanthis(a)awesomeplay.com>
wrote:
> That's not a good idea - that makes a symbol a meaningful part of the
> icon which is completely meaningless to people using languages that
> don't use latin letters or have the word 'Fedora'.
Icon != Logo. I'm talking about the project logo. Fedora is the name
of the project. You don't translate that, just like Red Hat isn't
called `Chapéu Vermelho' where I live.
When you're taling about the logo being the main menu icon, then yes,
the logo quite obviously does equal an icon.
--
Sean Middleditch <elanthis(a)awesomeplay.com>
AwesomePlay Productions, Inc.
8:55 a.m.
On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 23:26, Trae McCombs wrote:
I see that we've gotten a dialog going here, but is there a
sub-committee of people or something that will work on a solution for
this. If so I'd like to volunteer my expertise and assist in anyway I
can in helping the "UI" team for fedora.
On a note as far as using text... What's wrong with having text? As
long as it's something that can change according to ones language. I'm
sure there is something in the HIG that will tell me, but I can't find
how that pertains to a "start" button.
Because icons and graphics don't change with your language, only with
your icon theme. Plus, remaking a logo for every language out there
would be insane.
If we want text, that's great, but we need to get GNOME (and KDE, if
needed) to support a real text label in the main menu icon. Then it can
be localized/internationalized just like any other text.
I do think calling it fedora or something cryptic like that wouldn't be
good.
I can, and don't mind simply posting ideas to the list, but didn't want
to clog things up.
Trae
(ps. ltns Eric :)
On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 22:30, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> Sean Middleditch <elanthis(a)awesomeplay.com>:
> > That's not a good idea - that makes a symbol a meaningful part of the
> > icon which is completely meaningless to people using languages that
> > don't use latin letters or have the word 'Fedora'.
> >
> > As per the GNOME HIG, keep all letters out of icons in all situations -
> > leave all letters and words to labels that can be easily translated.
>
> I concur. The GNOME people are correct in this.
--
fedora-devel-list mailing list
fedora-devel-list(a)redhat.com
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
--
Sean Middleditch <elanthis(a)awesomeplay.com>
AwesomePlay Productions, Inc.
9:55 a.m.
On Sep 29, 2003, Sean Middleditch <elanthis(a)awesomeplay.com> wrote:
When you're taling about the logo being the main menu icon,
It was already pointed out before that that's not a logo. If it were
a Red Hat logo, it wouldn't be there any more. The icon is just a
generic red fedora.
--
Alexandre Oliva Enjoy Guarana', see http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
Red Hat GCC Developer aoliva(a){redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
CS PhD student at IC-Unicamp oliva(a){lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
Free Software Evangelist Professional serial bug killer
10:02 a.m.
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 10:55, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
On Sep 29, 2003, Sean Middleditch <elanthis(a)awesomeplay.com>
wrote:
> When you're taling about the logo being the main menu icon,
It was already pointed out before that that's not a logo. If it were
a Red Hat logo, it wouldn't be there any more. The icon is just a
generic red fedora.
Ah. I'd argue its the same problem anyhow (not to mention letters in
logos is just tacky), human interaction isn't limited to the GUI.
Anyways, I assumed you meant the logo/icon for the task icon, given the
name of the thread - if you're on a different subject entirely, warn
us. ;-)
--
Sean Middleditch <elanthis(a)awesomeplay.com>
AwesomePlay Productions, Inc.
11:45 a.m.
Alexandre Oliva wrote:
On Sep 29, 2003, Sean Middleditch <elanthis(a)awesomeplay.com>
wrote:
>When you're taling about the logo being the main menu icon,
It was already pointed out before that that's not a logo. If it were
a Red Hat logo, it wouldn't be there any more. The icon is just a
generic red fedora.
It would be interesting to adopt another color to Fedora Project, like
blue for logos and so on...
--
S moking C rack O ften
12:25 p.m.
On Sep 29, 2003, Xose Vazquez Perez <xose(a)wanadoo.es> wrote:
It would be interesting to adopt another color to Fedora Project,
like
blue for logos and so on...
You know... I *really* miss the red in the installer and login
screens. It feels so odd...
--
Alexandre Oliva Enjoy Guarana', see http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
Red Hat GCC Developer aoliva(a){redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
CS PhD student at IC-Unicamp oliva(a){lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
Free Software Evangelist Professional serial bug killer
7:34 p.m.
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 13:22, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 12:14, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
> Fedora is the name
> of the project. You don't translate that, just like Red Hat isn't
> called `Chapéu Vermelho' where I live.
But you may 'transcribe' it. Fedora may become 'فدورا' in my language.
Entirely unrelated - but evolution showed those fonts really well.
That makes me happy.
-sv
4:39 a.m.
Try to select the sentence word by word with the mouse :-)
Am Di, 2003-09-30 um 09.09 schrieb Roozbeh Pournader:
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 04:04, seth vidal wrote:
> > But you may 'transcribe' it. Fedora may become 'فدورا' in my
language.
>
> Entirely unrelated - but evolution showed those fonts really well.
Entirely related: it was written with Evolution also.
roozbeh
--
fedora-devel-list mailing list
fedora-devel-list(a)redhat.com
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
--
Harald Hoyer, Senior Software Engineer Harald.Hoyer(a)redhat.de
Red Hat GmbH Tel. : +49-711-96437-0
D-70178 Stuttgart, Germany Web : http://www.redhat.de
gpg fingerprint E930 20E6 CCF8 C76C 8582 CF9F B7B7 45C2 C557 5542
6:49 a.m.
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 05:39, Harald Hoyer wrote:
Try to select the sentence word by word with the mouse :-)
> > > But you may 'transcribe' it. Fedora may become 'فدورا' in
my language.
> >
> > Entirely unrelated - but evolution showed those fonts really well.
Yah - I noticed that too. But I wasn't familiar with the language to
know if selecting only part of it changed the letter to be used. For
example, korean changes the character dependent on what you type.
-sv
7 a.m.
New subject: [OT] Re: redhat logo on gnome menu / menu bar.
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 15:19, seth vidal wrote:
Yah - I noticed that too. But I wasn't familiar with the language
to
know if selecting only part of it changed the letter to be used. For
example, korean changes the character dependent on what you type.
This was the Persian language, written in the Arabic script. And yes, it
*does* have that "contextual shaping" behavior. But in no language in
the word should selecting (a read-only act) change the appearance
underlying text. But again, since this is a bidirectional script, so
getting things like this right is a little hard.
roozbeh
8:42 a.m.
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 12:49, seth vidal wrote:
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 05:39, Harald Hoyer wrote:
> Try to select the sentence word by word with the mouse :-)
>
> > > > But you may 'transcribe' it. Fedora may become
'فدورا' in my language.
> > >
> > > Entirely unrelated - but evolution showed those fonts really well.
Yah - I noticed that too. But I wasn't familiar with the language to
know if selecting only part of it changed the letter to be used. For
example, korean changes the character dependent on what you type.
I believe it's a right-to-left bug: when you select it the order of
characters is reversed. In vi it looks reversed to evolution. So without
looking at the source too much, that's what I suspect it is.
I filed a bug before getting to this e-mail ;)
--
Andrew Sobala <aes(a)gnome.org>
1:22 p.m.
Harald Hoyer wrote:
Try to select the sentence word by word with the mouse :-)
Am Di, 2003-09-30 um 09.09 schrieb Roozbeh Pournader:
>On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 04:04, seth vidal wrote:
>
>>>But you may 'transcribe' it. Fedora may become 'فدورا' in my
language.
>>
>>Entirely unrelated - but evolution showed those fonts really well.
>
>Entirely related: it was written with Evolution also.
Selects without changes in Mozilla :)
double click gives:
'فدورا
higlighting gives:
'فدورا'
Appears to paste OK to. Scrolling through the characters is interesting
(r->l issue?).
-Thomas
10:04 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Re: redhat logo on gnome menu / menu bar.
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 15:19, seth vidal wrote:
> Yah - I noticed that too. But I wasn't familiar with the language to
> know if selecting only part of it changed the letter to be used. For
> example, korean changes the character dependent on what you type.
This was the Persian language, written in the Arabic script. And yes, it
*does* have that "contextual shaping" behavior. But in no language in
the word should selecting (a read-only act) change the appearance
underlying text. But again, since this is a bidirectional script, so
getting things like this right is a little hard.
First time I saw this behaviour was in mozilla. Right now I'm
thinking that having such a *feature* may not be so bad some
times. Consider selecting Arabic text when your font supports
and you are seeing those nasty ligatures of three or more
letters...
roozbeh
7505
days inactive
7510
days old
34 comments
21 participants
participants (21)
-
Alexandre Oliva -
Andrew Sobala -
Behdad Esfahbod -
Bill Anderson -
Eric S. Raymond -
Harald Hoyer -
Havoc Pennington -
Jens Knutson -
Julien Olivier -
Konstantin Ryabitsev -
Marius Andreiana -
Nicolas Mailhot -
Pedro Morais -
Rodrigo Del C. Andrade -
Roozbeh Pournader -
Sean Middleditch -
seth vidal -
Thomas Dodd -
Trae McCombs -
Vincent -
Xose Vazquez Perez