8:33 a.m.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Fedora_Linux_in_os-release
== Summary ==
"Fedora" is the name of our project. Our general-purpose Linux distribution
is "Fedora Linux". Let's refer to it that way in the OS itself.
== Owner ==
* Name: [[User:mattdm| Matthew Miller]]
* Email: mattdm At fedoraproject.org (bugzilla: mattdm AT redhat.com)
== Detailed Description ==
This change isn't big — it is simply expanding
* <tt>NAME=Fedora</tt> to <tt>NAME="Fedora Linux"</tt>
and
* <tt>PRETTY_NAME="Fedora Linux [##] ([edition or spin])</tt>
in the file <tt>/etc/os-release</tt>.
The short identifier <tt>ID=fedora</tt> will remain the same, so scripted
interactions should be unaffected.
== Feedback ==
Community Blog article posted:
https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedora-is-a-community-fedora-linu...
== Benefit to Fedora ==
The distinction between our project and our output is important, because as
a project and a community we are more than the bits we produce — and, we
produce more things (including software bits!) from that included in the
Fedora Linux distribution.
We make EPEL, ELN, and thousands of packages in Copr. These are all part of
Fedora — but aren't Fedora Linux. We also make artwork, music,
documentation, videos, websites, tools, and more. These things too are part
of our project, but aren't part of the Fedora Linux distribution. The habit
of calling just one thing we make "Fedora" makes it hard to talk about the
project and all of the things we do within our [
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/#_our_mission mission].
Of course, years of colloquial usage can't be changed overnight, but
changing the place where we officially identify the operating system name
is an important start. Rather than a big education campaign, let's fix our
own usage and go from there.
== Scope ==
* Proposal owners: Will submit a PR for the <tt>fedora-release</tt> package.
* Other developers: Should be no impact, but may need to update any scripts
using <TT>NAME</TT> instead of <TT>ID</TT>.
* Release engineering: To review and accept the PR when ready.
* Policies and guidelines: This change itself does not represent a change
to policies, but it's good to consider where usage can be changed in
existing documents.
* Trademark approval: Not required. Note that this has been cleared by
Fedora Legal.
* Alignment with Objectives: No specific objective but aligns with a
Council goal.
== Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
Updated systems will get the new <tt>/etc/os-release</tt> file and will see
changes in the text-mode login prompt and in places like "OS Name" in the
About panel in GNOME.
== How To Test ==
1. Update to test version of Fedora 35
2. Observe name change in <tt>/etc/os-release</tt>
3. Optionally, observe name change in GNOME Settings, text-mode login
screens, neofetch, etc.
It would also be useful to test any third-party software which may
mistakenly look at <tt>NAME</tt> instead of <tt>ID</tt>.
== User Experience ==
Users will see the distribution referred to as "Fedora Linux" rather than
just "Fedora".
== Dependencies ==
None.
== Contingency Plan ==
* Contingency mechanism: Change owner or release engineering will revert
the change to <tt>fedora-release</tt>
* Contingency deadline: Decision should be made at beta, but in the
unlikely event of disaster this could be reverted right up until the last
minute.
* Blocks release? No.
== Documentation ==
Fedora is made of people! When used by itself, the term "Fedora" refers to
the Fedora Project. When referring to our work, please use either a
specific name like <i>Fedora Workstation</i>, <i>Fedora
CoreOS</i>, or
<i>Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop</i>; or use <i>Fedora Linux</i> to
refer to
the OS distribution as a whole.
== Release Notes ==
Note: Fedora is made of people! When used by itself, the term "Fedora"
refers to the Fedora Project. When referring to our work, please use either
a specific name like <i>Fedora Workstation</i>, <i>Fedora
CoreOS</i>, or
<i>Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop</i>; or use <i>Fedora Linux</i> to
refer to
the OS distribution as a whole.
--
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Senior Program Manager, Fedora & CentOS Stream
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
9:28 a.m.
On 09.03.2021 15:33, Ben Cotton wrote:
"Fedora" is the name of our project. Our general-purpose
Linux
distribution is "Fedora Linux". Let's refer to it that way in the OS
itself.
1. "Fedora" is shorter and better, IMO. The "Core" suffix was dropped
years ago.
2. Why Linux and not GNU/Linux? Linux is just a kernel. GNU/Linux is an OS.
--
Sincerely,
Vitaly Zaitsev (vitaly(a)easycoding.org)
9:43 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 04:28:54PM +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote:
>"Fedora" is the name of our project. Our
general-purpose Linux
>distribution is "Fedora Linux". Let's refer to it that way in the
>OS itself.
1. "Fedora" is shorter and better, IMO. The "Core" suffix was
dropped years ago.
Check this out from back in the day:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Logo-history-variations.jpg
Under that scheme, it was obvious that we did a number of different things,
all of them "Fedora". The merger with Extras and creation of a real
community project was essential to our ongoing success, but it also
introduced a community / output confusion. This has gotten worse in recent
years as we introduce new and different things, leading to things like
people saying "Oh, that's in CoreOS, not Fedora", where the shorthand is
more confusing than helpful.
2. Why Linux and not GNU/Linux? Linux is just a kernel. GNU/Linux is
an OS.
Fedora Linux is an OS. Although GNU project utilities are indeed essential,
Fedora Linux consists of more than those plus Linux, and the contributions
of many of those other projects is equally essential. Additonally:
* We are not part of GNU, and in fact listed by them as specifically not
endorsed because we have policy disagreements.
* Interjections aside, "Linux" is what people in general know. Adding more
words and punctuation does not seem as good for a general audience.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
10:03 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 10:43:32AM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 04:28:54PM +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel
wrote:
> >"Fedora" is the name of our project. Our general-purpose Linux
> >distribution is "Fedora Linux". Let's refer to it that way in the
> >OS itself.
>
> 1. "Fedora" is shorter and better, IMO. The "Core" suffix was
> dropped years ago.
Check this out from back in the day:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Logo-history-variations.jpg
Under that scheme, it was obvious that we did a number of different things,
all of them "Fedora". The merger with Extras and creation of a real
community project was essential to our ongoing success, but it also
introduced a community / output confusion. This has gotten worse in recent
years as we introduce new and different things, leading to things like
people saying "Oh, that's in CoreOS, not Fedora", where the shorthand is
more confusing than helpful.
> 2. Why Linux and not GNU/Linux? Linux is just a kernel. GNU/Linux is an OS.
http://pedrocr.pt/text/how-much-gnu-in-gnu-linux/
tl;dr: 8% gnu (by some measure) in 2011. That number has probably
fallen quite a bit since then.
Zbyszek
11:07 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 05:35:40PM +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote:
On 09.03.2021 17:03, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
>tl;dr: 8% gnu (by some measure) in 2011. That number has probably
>fallen quite a bit since then.
GCC, glibc, libstdc++, coreutils.
Yeah, but all those projects were already there in 2011, and are nice
stable projects that don't have any particular reason to grow massively.
And there doesn't seem to be much new stuff that falls under the GNU
umbrella. But the number of projects in the distro is growing all the
time, with new stuff in new languages, so existing projects shrink
relative to the whole.
Zbyszek
10:36 a.m.
On 09. 03. 21 17:03, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 10:43:32AM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 04:28:54PM +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote:
>>> "Fedora" is the name of our project. Our general-purpose Linux
>>> distribution is "Fedora Linux". Let's refer to it that way in
the
>>> OS itself.
>>
>> 1. "Fedora" is shorter and better, IMO. The "Core" suffix
was
>> dropped years ago.
>
> Check this out from back in the day:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Logo-history-variations.jpg
>
> Under that scheme, it was obvious that we did a number of different things,
> all of them "Fedora". The merger with Extras and creation of a real
> community project was essential to our ongoing success, but it also
> introduced a community / output confusion. This has gotten worse in recent
> years as we introduce new and different things, leading to things like
> people saying "Oh, that's in CoreOS, not Fedora", where the shorthand
is
> more confusing than helpful.
>
>
>> 2. Why Linux and not GNU/Linux? Linux is just a kernel. GNU/Linux is an OS.
http://pedrocr.pt/text/how-much-gnu-in-gnu-linux/
tl;dr: 8% gnu (by some measure) in 2011. That number has probably
fallen quite a bit since then.
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux,
is in fact, Python/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, Python plus
Linux :D
--
Miro Hrončok
--
Phone: +420777974800
IRC: mhroncok
10:34 a.m.
On 09.03.2021 16:43, Matthew Miller wrote:
Fedora Linux is an OS.
Fedora is. Linux isn't. Linux is just an OS kernel. It cannot be used
without helpers like GNU libraries and utilities.
We are not part of GNU, and in fact listed by them as specifically
not
endorsed because we have policy disagreements.
But we are still using GCC, GNU coreutils, glibc, libstdc++, etc. That's
why we cannot name an OS without the GNU prefix.
--
Sincerely,
Vitaly Zaitsev (vitaly(a)easycoding.org)
10:49 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 05:34:48PM +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote:
On 09.03.2021 16:43, Matthew Miller wrote:
>Fedora Linux is an OS.
Fedora is. Linux isn't. Linux is just an OS kernel. It cannot be
used without helpers like GNU libraries and utilities.
Right, and I'm proposing we use the name "Fedora Linux", not just
"Linux".
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
11:20 a.m.
Vitaly Zaitsev via devel <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> writes:
Ofc we can use it, but only when we will get rid of all GNU
libraries,
compiler and utilities. :-)
Please don't start this tired old argument again. "Fedora Linux" is a
name, not an ISO standard, we can call it whatever we want. We respect
that you may have a differing opinion, but you must respect that others
may not share it. Feel free to start your own distro with whatever name
*you* choose ;-)
BTW as a GNU C library maintainer, I have no problem calling it "Fedora
Linux". Communication is about using words that convey understanding,
not about confusing the message for political gain.
Also, telling people how they may or may not use GNU packages is
contrary to the GNU Manifesto.
11:58 a.m.
On Tue, 9 Mar 2021 at 12:46, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel <
devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On 09.03.2021 18:20, DJ Delorie wrote:
> Feel free to start your own distro with whatever name
> *you* choose;-)
I'm Fedora maintainer too, so I have the right to show my point of view
on this issue.
You have stated your point of view in the same way as many others have over
the last 20? years. In that time, I have yet to see it move the needle in
any constructive way but just make people get angrier each time it comes
up.
--
Stephen J Smoogen.
11:26 a.m.
On Tuesday, March 9, 2021 4:34:48 PM WET Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote:
Fedora is. Linux isn't. Linux is just an OS kernel. It cannot be
used
without helpers like GNU libraries and utilities.
Fedora is the project.
How do you distinguish the project from the distribution?
AFAICS this is an attempt to convey that distinction. Calling the distribution
Fedora Linux does this in a formal way.
--
José Abílio
3:15 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 12:27 PM José Abílio Matos <jamatos(a)fc.up.pt> wrote:
On Tuesday, March 9, 2021 4:34:48 PM WET Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote:
> Fedora is. Linux isn't. Linux is just an OS kernel. It cannot be used
> without helpers like GNU libraries and utilities.
Fedora is the project.
How do you distinguish the project from the distribution?
I can't speak for others, but I have always used "Fedora" to refer to
the collection of software that is installable as an operating system
on my computers, and "The Fedora Project" to refer to the entire
Fedora community. This has also long been reflected in the
`fedoraproject.org` name, and as far as I can tell, was also reflected
in the decision to acquire/use the `getfedora.org` domain (instead of
something like `getfedoralinux.org`. "Fedora" clearly already refers
to the operating system, and "Fedora Project" clearly already refers
to the community as a whole.
This is similar to how I use "Apache" to refer to the webserver and
"Apache Software Foundation" to refer to the organization, and how I
use "Eclipse" to refer to the IDE software, and the "Eclipse
Foundation" to refer to that organization.
To me, it makes sense to keep the shortest name possible for the thing
I refer to most often. In this case, it's the operating
system/software stack. Nobody is ever confused when I say "Fedora" to
refer to the operating system... but if I use it to refer to the
Fedora project as a whole, people always get confused because they
think I mean the operating system. If I said "Fedora Linux", I think
people would just think I'm being redundant, because "Fedora" implies
the Linux kernel (in addition to the other OS components it ships
with).
I'm not bothered by the name change, if people really want it... but
it doesn't make sense to me, and won't change the fact that I will
still refer to the operating system as simply "Fedora", because people
already understand that and know what I mean.
4:32 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 04:15:14PM -0500, Christopher wrote:
This is similar to how I use "Apache" to refer to the
webserver and
"Apache Software Foundation" to refer to the organization, and how I
use "Eclipse" to refer to the IDE software, and the "Eclipse
Foundation" to refer to that organization.
This is a funny example, because in fact Apache would very much like you to
say "Apache httpd" rather than calling the httpd server "Apache".
They've
got a whole FAQ on it http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/faq/#guide and
are pretty careful about it in their documentation and communication.
Eclipse is less explicit about this request, but I notice that on their
website they are very careful to consistently refer to "Eclipse IDE".
In short... both of these projects have the same policy I'm asking for.
Of course, the obvious response is that it hasn't stuck. That might be
partly true, but it also definitely _has_ for other people (see for example
the `httpd` package naming in our own repos), and it really does allow those
organizations to have more clear communication about everything they do,
which is my primary goal here.
system/software stack. Nobody is ever confused when I say
"Fedora" to
refer to the operating system... but if I use it to refer to the
Fedora project as a whole, people always get confused because they
think I mean the operating system.
Yes, and that latter confusion is definitely a problem. It means that
activities that we, the Fedora Project engage in that are not just that
operating system always get treated as weird side cases. But we've been
doing those other things for decades, too.
If I said "Fedora Linux", I think people would just think
I'm being
redundant, because "Fedora" implies the Linux kernel (in addition to the
other OS components it ships with).
I don't see people being confused in this way by, say, "Arch Linux" or
"Linux Mint". I agree that it's a little weird at first, but as Ben Cotton
said, after the first hundred times or so it becomes natural.
I'm not bothered by the name change, if people really want it...
but
it doesn't make sense to me, and won't change the fact that I will
still refer to the operating system as simply "Fedora", because people
already understand that and know what I mean.
That's fine. I do not intend to introduce naming police or anything.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
7:04 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 5:33 PM Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
In short... both of these projects have the same policy I'm
asking for.
I get the idea that it's useful to draw a distinction between the
project and the product, and agree with the goal. The upstream naming
preference wasn't really my point in those examples, though. My
examples were an attempt to show that the short name (colloquial name,
even if not the "official" name) often refers to the product, and the
community name is the longer of the two (often with the community
being named after the product, not the other way around). I was also
attempting to emphasize that there's already a distinction made
between Fedora and the Fedora Project that people are already using
that seems to be sufficient, in the same way that those other
projects/communities have a distinction.
it really does allow those organizations to have more clear
communication
Clarity can be achieved by context, the use of improper nouns, and
clear writing style (descriptive thinking). I think people put too
much emphasis in names to communicate meaning (nominative thinking).
Adding "Linux" doesn't really give any clarity, since it's implied
already... and... you can already append it to descriptively add
clarity without changing the name.
> system/software stack. Nobody is ever confused when I say
"Fedora" to
> refer to the operating system... but if I use it to refer to the
> Fedora project as a whole, people always get confused because they
> think I mean the operating system.
Yes, and that latter confusion is definitely a problem. It means that
activities that we, the Fedora Project engage in that are not just that
operating system always get treated as weird side cases. But we've been
doing those other things for decades, too.
The confusion to which I was referring is typically resolved by using
"Fedora Project" to refer to the project as a whole, or if that's
still unclear, by appending the improper noun "community", as in "the
Fedora Project community" or "the Fedora community". This is no
different than resolving confusion about "Apache" by saying "The
Apache Software Foundation" or "the Apache community".
For me, the bigger problem is that "Fedora Project" too often gets
interpreted as "Fedora project", and people don't know enough about
the world of Fedora to know that "Project" is the name of the overall
effort, rather than a synonym for the Fedora "product". If anything,
this isn't a problem of "Fedora" being a bad/incomplete name for the
software product, but "Fedora Project" being a bad name for the
overall effort. Choosing a better name for the overall effort would
probably yield more clarity of the type you are seeking than changing
the name of the operating system. Perhaps "Fedora Community Effort /
Endeavor" ("FCE") or "Fedora Community Project" (FCP).
I don't agree that the potential confusion means the overall effort is
being "treated as weird side cases". It just means that people engage
with "Fedora" the operating system product more frequently than the
"Fedora Project". This is natural, expected, and not necessarily a
problem to correct.
> If I said "Fedora Linux", I think people would just
think I'm being
> redundant, because "Fedora" implies the Linux kernel (in addition to the
> other OS components it ships with).
I don't see people being confused in this way by, say, "Arch Linux" or
"Linux Mint". I agree that it's a little weird at first, but as Ben Cotton
said, after the first hundred times or so it becomes natural.
Did those distros previously have a name of "Arch" or "Mint" alone,
and then add "Linux" to the name later? If not, then I don't
understand your point.
"Fedora" is what the operating system is currently known as. Yes, I'm
sure we could all get used to being more specific by saying "Fedora
Linux"... but to me, I don't understand why it would be necessary. You
can already say "Fedora Linux" (descriptive thinking) as shorthand for
"The Linux-based operating system named 'Fedora' " or "The Linux
distribution named 'Fedora' ", without actually changing the name to
formally have "Linux" as part of the name itself (nominative
thinking).
To summarize, it seems we already have distinguishing names, and you
wish to change one of them:
1. Fedora -> Fedora Linux
2. Fedora Project
I don't think this accomplishes much, but if a name changer were
warranted, I would prefer:
1. Fedora
2. Fedora Project -> Fedora Community Project / Effort / Endeavor
Or, if the OS really needed to have a name change, how about:
1. Fedora -> Fedora Core ;-)
2. Fedora Project
/shrug
It doesn't matter to me much. I have expressed my opinion, but am
happy to go with the flow. :)
Christopher
8:40 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 08:04:01PM -0500, Christopher wrote:
I get the idea that it's useful to draw a distinction between
the
project and the product, and agree with the goal. The upstream naming
preference wasn't really my point in those examples, though. My
examples were an attempt to show that the short name (colloquial name,
even if not the "official" name) often refers to the product, and the
community name is the longer of the two (often with the community
being named after the product, not the other way around). I was also
attempting to emphasize that there's already a distinction made
between Fedora and the Fedora Project that people are already using
that seems to be sufficient, in the same way that those other
projects/communities have a distinction.
This is all fine; I'm not going to fight against colloquial use. This change
is about one aspect of our own formal use.
Clarity can be achieved by context, the use of improper nouns, and
clear writing style (descriptive thinking). I think people put too
much emphasis in names to communicate meaning (nominative thinking).
Adding "Linux" doesn't really give any clarity, since it's implied
already... and... you can already append it to descriptively add
clarity without changing the name.
/etc/os-release doesn't give much room for context like that. I mean, if it
helps, you can think of it as us appending Linux descriptively to add
clarity?
It doesn't matter to me much. I have expressed my opinion, but
am
happy to go with the flow. :)
And I do appreciate it. :)
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
7:45 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 05:32:41PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
I agree that it's a little weird at first, but as Ben Cotton
said,
after the first hundred times or so it becomes natural.
This is not necessarily true. Our university IT department changed its
name about a decade ago, from three letters to four letters (both
abbreviations). But now, about ten years later still noone apart from
the officials use the new name.
(Even they don't consistently use it, despite orders(!) to use the new
name)
I assume this is because the new name is clunkier - it could be
pronounced as one syllable before and now all four letters need to be
pronounced separately to not sound weird.
I think this is similar to the Mandrake/Mandriva example.
All the best,
Astra
2:20 a.m.
I agree with David.
While I am sure that we can fix every bit of the distribution and
documentation to refer to "Fedora Linux", I don't think there is a way
to change people to refer in colloquial language to Fedora, the
operating system, as a Fedora Linux. I'll certainly keep using sentences
such as "I have installed Fedora on my LP", because most of people will
know what does it mean and it is shorted and well rooted. It won't be in
bad faith, it'll be just simpler. Similarly people are using "I have
installed Red Hat" referring to "Red Hat Enterprise Linux".
However, I can imagine that somebody will correct me that the right way
is to say "I have installed Fedora Linux on my LP", because "Fedora"
does not exist in this context.
Vít
Dne 10. 03. 21 v 2:45 David Kaufmann napsal(a):
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 05:32:41PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> I agree that it's a little weird at first, but as Ben Cotton said,
> after the first hundred times or so it becomes natural.
This is not necessarily true. Our university IT department changed its
name about a decade ago, from three letters to four letters (both
abbreviations). But now, about ten years later still noone apart from
the officials use the new name.
(Even they don't consistently use it, despite orders(!) to use the new
name)
I assume this is because the new name is clunkier - it could be
pronounced as one syllable before and now all four letters need to be
pronounced separately to not sound weird.
I think this is similar to the Mandrake/Mandriva example.
All the best,
Astra
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8:42 a.m.
On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 09:20:21AM +0100, Vít Ondruch wrote:
However, I can imagine that somebody will correct me that the right
way is to say "I have installed Fedora Linux on my LP", because
"Fedora" does not exist in this context.
Here's my suggestion: if you're writing formal Fedora Project documentation
and someone corrects you in that way, say "Oh, thanks" and accept the
change. In any other case, shrug, wink, ignore, acknowledge, whatever, and
move on.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
6:35 a.m.
Matthew Miller wrote:
Of course, the obvious response is that it hasn't stuck. That
might be
partly true, but it also definitely _has_ for other people (see for example
the `httpd` package naming in our own repos)
Debian, on the other hand, has an apache2 package, /usr/sbin/apache2,
/etc/apache2, apache2.service and so on. That's a real nuisance.
Working with both Debian and CentOS I always have trouble remembering
whether it's /etc/apache2 or /etc/httpd, and apache2.service or
httpd.service. Both have apachectl though, not httpctl.
Björn Persson
4:08 p.m.
Once upon a time, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> said:
But we are still using GCC, GNU coreutils, glibc, libstdc++, etc.
That's why we cannot name an OS without the GNU prefix.
Sure we can. There is absolutely no GNU requirement that you embed
their name in your name (and it'd be a violation of the GPL to do so).
And that's a two-way street. Projects like coreutils and glibc receive
significant development from the Linux community.
--
Chris Adams <linux(a)cmadams.net>
5:20 a.m.
Fedora is. Linux isn't. Linux is just an OS kernel
Linux (/ˈlinʊks/ (listen) LEEN-uuks or /ˈlɪnʊks/ LIN-uuks[9]) is a
family of open-source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux
kernel.
ср, 10 мар. 2021 г. в 01:35, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel
<devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org>:
>
> On 09.03.2021 16:43, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > Fedora Linux is an OS.
>
> Fedora is. Linux isn't. Linux is just an OS kernel. It cannot be used
> without helpers like GNU libraries and utilities.
>
> > We are not part of GNU, and in fact listed by them as specifically not
> > endorsed because we have policy disagreements.
>
> But we are still using GCC, GNU coreutils, glibc, libstdc++, etc. That's
> why we cannot name an OS without the GNU prefix.
>
> --
> Sincerely,
> Vitaly Zaitsev (vitaly(a)easycoding.org)
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6:17 a.m.
I much prefer simple things, and referring to the distribution as "Fedora"
does it for me on a few levels.
FNU? Perhaps in the future the Linux kernel may fall out of favour for
something else, hey why not just cut to the eventual chase and call it
systemd-fedora.
On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 at 22:21, Alexey A. <hakavlad(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Fedora is. Linux isn't. Linux is just an OS kernel
Linux (/ˈlinʊks/ (listen) LEEN-uuks or /ˈlɪnʊks/ LIN-uuks[9]) is a
family of open-source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux
kernel.
ср, 10 мар. 2021 г. в 01:35, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel
<devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org>:
>
> On 09.03.2021 16:43, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > Fedora Linux is an OS.
>
> Fedora is. Linux isn't. Linux is just an OS kernel. It cannot be used
> without helpers like GNU libraries and utilities.
>
> > We are not part of GNU, and in fact listed by them as specifically not
> > endorsed because we have policy disagreements.
>
> But we are still using GCC, GNU coreutils, glibc, libstdc++, etc. That's
> why we cannot name an OS without the GNU prefix.
>
> --
> Sincerely,
> Vitaly Zaitsev (vitaly(a)easycoding.org)
> _______________________________________________
> devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
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6:27 a.m.
Matthew Miller wrote:
leading to things like
people saying "Oh, that's in CoreOS, not Fedora", where the shorthand is
more confusing than helpful.
What should that be instead? "That's in CoreOS, not Linux" is no better.
"That's in Fedora CoreOS, not Fedora Linux" makes no sense either,
because Fedora CoreOS would be a subset of Fedora Linux if I understand
you correctly.
Björn Persson
6:57 a.m.
Matthew Miller wrote:
Check this out from back in the day:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Logo-history-variations.jpg
Under that scheme, it was obvious that we did a number of different
things, all of them "Fedora".
But those things have one thing in common, they are all gone (except the
project): Core and Extras have merged, Legacy has been discontinued, the
Foundation has never materialized.
The merger with Extras and creation of a real community project was
essential to our ongoing success, but it also introduced a community /
output confusion.
All that is left from the above is the Fedora Project that produces Fedora.
I do not see a big confusion there. Every community-developed product is
produced by a project community.
And other attempts at resolving this alleged "community / output confusion"
in Free Software communities have only led to more naming chaos, not less,
see, e.g., the KDE rebranding fiasco. (There are about 99500 search engine
hits for "KDE 5", a phrase that officially does not exist due to the
rebranding from "KDE 4" to "(KDE) Plasma 4" in the 4.x era.)
In most cases, it is obvious whether Fedora, the GNU/Linux distribution, or
Fedora, the community that develops it, are meant. When not, it can be
easily clarified as Fedora GNU/Linux vs. the Fedora Project in the specific
context.
This has gotten worse in recent years as we introduce new and
different
things, leading to things like people saying "Oh, that's in CoreOS, not
Fedora", where the shorthand is more confusing than helpful.
And I think it makes sense to say that: CoreOS is a very different operating
system from Fedora as we know it (even if they share the GNU/Linux base) and
so should (continue to) have a completely different brand, not Fedora.
> 2. Why Linux and not GNU/Linux? Linux is just a kernel. GNU/Linux
is an
> OS.
Fedora Linux is an OS. Although GNU project utilities are indeed
essential, Fedora Linux consists of more than those plus Linux, and the
contributions of many of those other projects is equally essential.
But the Linux kernel is just a small part of the operating system, and not
even the characterizing part: Android also uses the Linux kernel, and it is
a completely different operating system!
Additonally:
* We are not part of GNU, and in fact listed by them as specifically not
endorsed because we have policy disagreements.
Fedora is not "part of Linux" either. The easiest way to avoid any such
confusion is to just call it Fedora.
And besides, Debian is also not on the FSF-approved distro list (mainly
because of the existence of the non-free section), and is still allowed to
call itself "Debian GNU/Linux".
* Interjections aside, "Linux" is what people in general
know. Adding more
words and punctuation does not seem as good for a general audience.
But this contributes to spreading the misnomer.
Kevin Kofler
9:27 a.m.
On Thu, 2021-03-11 at 13:57 +0100, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
Matthew Miller wrote:
> Check this out from back in the day:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Logo-history-variations.jpg
>
> Under that scheme, it was obvious that we did a number of different
> things, all of them "Fedora".
But those things have one thing in common, they are all gone (except
the
project): Core and Extras have merged, Legacy has been discontinued,
the
Foundation has never materialized.
> The merger with Extras and creation of a real community project was
> essential to our ongoing success, but it also introduced a
> community /
> output confusion.
All that is left from the above is the Fedora Project that produces
Fedora.
I do not see a big confusion there. Every community-developed product
is
produced by a project community.
And other attempts at resolving this alleged "community / output
confusion"
in Free Software communities have only led to more naming chaos, not
less,
see, e.g., the KDE rebranding fiasco. (There are about 99500 search
engine
hits for "KDE 5", a phrase that officially does not exist due to the
rebranding from "KDE 4" to "(KDE) Plasma 4" in the 4.x era.)
In most cases, it is obvious whether Fedora, the GNU/Linux
distribution, or
Fedora, the community that develops it, are meant. When not, it can
be
easily clarified as Fedora GNU/Linux vs. the Fedora Project in the
specific
context.
> This has gotten worse in recent years as we introduce new and
> different
> things, leading to things like people saying "Oh, that's in CoreOS,
> not
> Fedora", where the shorthand is more confusing than helpful.
And I think it makes sense to say that: CoreOS is a very different
operating
system from Fedora as we know it (even if they share the GNU/Linux
base) and
so should (continue to) have a completely different brand, not
Fedora.
> > 2. Why Linux and not GNU/Linux? Linux is just a kernel. GNU/Linux
> > is an
> > OS.
>
> Fedora Linux is an OS. Although GNU project utilities are indeed
> essential, Fedora Linux consists of more than those plus Linux, and
> the
> contributions of many of those other projects is equally essential.
But the Linux kernel is just a small part of the operating system,
and not
even the characterizing part: Android also uses the Linux kernel, and
it is
a completely different operating system!
> Additonally:
>
> * We are not part of GNU, and in fact listed by them as
> specifically not
> endorsed because we have policy disagreements.
Fedora is not "part of Linux" either. The easiest way to avoid any
such
confusion is to just call it Fedora.
Or if you want to separate the project and the product, avoid the Linux
and GNU additions and use something more generic:
Fedora OS vs Fedora project?
Louis L
1:07 a.m.
On 3/9/21 7:43 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> 2. Why Linux and not GNU/Linux? Linux is just a kernel. GNU/Linux
is an OS.
Fedora Linux is an OS. Although GNU project utilities are indeed essential,
Fedora Linux consists of more than those plus Linux, and the contributions
of many of those other projects is equally essential.
Stephen's right to point out that the Linux vs GNU/Linux arguments have
been mostly the same for 20 years. Very few of those arguments are
objective or logical, IMO. What if we did have a way to define Linux,
GNU/Linux and Fedora, though? Something neither arbitrary nor capricious...
One of the bad arguments, seen in this thread too, is whether or not
Linux is an OS or just a kernel. I think we can accept that Linux is an
operating system on its own, though it's one that implements a
non-standard, de facto interface.
The GNU operating system, on the other hand, is a mostly conformant
implementation of POSIX and related standards. Its most common variant
is GNU/Linux. Because it is an implementation of a formal standard, we
can objectively identify the GNU/Linux operating system.
The LSB also provides a useful definition of an operating system which
extends beyond POSIX and related standards. Fedora does produce an
operating system that implements that standard, but that operating
system isn't typically distributed on its own. Rather, it's a small part
of the Fedora software distribution.
I think it makes sense to differentiate Fedora the operating system from
Fedora the software distribution, because calling the entire
distribution an operating system needlessly strains the definition of
that term. And that means that Fedora is a project, Fedora is an
operating system, and Fedora is a software distribution. If "Fedora
Linux" has officially been the name of anything in the past, it's
escaped my notice. When my laptop boots, it prominently displays a logo
that says "Fedora".
If we're going to rename the operating system from "Fedora" to "Fedora
Linux", and that name isn't used to differentiate a variant from one
with a different kernel, then I think it's kind of conspicuous that
we're using the name of the kernel and not the name of the POSIX
operating system that Fedora extends. And my opinion is that choosing
not to acknowledge GNU makes the project less welcoming and friendly to
those of us for whom Free Software is an ethical concern before a
technical one.
It's also rather conspicuous that when it comes to Apache httpd and
Eclipse IDE, we honor the name used by the people who wrote the
software, but when it comes to GNU/Linux, our standards for naming are
completely different.
8:56 a.m.
On Mon, 22 Mar 2021 at 02:09, Gordon Messmer <gordon.messmer(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
On 3/9/21 7:43 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:
2. Why Linux and not GNU/Linux? Linux is just a kernel. GNU/Linux is an OS.
Fedora Linux is an OS. Although GNU project utilities are indeed essential,
Fedora Linux consists of more than those plus Linux, and the contributions
of many of those other projects is equally essential.
Stephen's right to point out that the Linux vs GNU/Linux arguments have
been mostly the same for 20 years. Very few of those arguments are
objective or logical, IMO. What if we did have a way to define Linux,
GNU/Linux and Fedora, though? Something neither arbitrary nor capricious...
One of the bad arguments, seen in this thread too, is whether or not Linux
is an OS or just a kernel. I think we can accept that Linux is an
operating system on its own, though it's one that implements a
non-standard, de facto interface.
The GNU operating system, on the other hand, is a mostly conformant
implementation of POSIX and related standards. Its most common variant is
GNU/Linux. Because it is an implementation of a formal standard, we can
objectively identify the GNU/Linux operating system.
My main problem is that for a good portion of the 1990's the GNU operating
system was HURD and any and all work on Linux was seen as a major
distraction and removal of resources from the more important operating
system. In the early 1990's, I don't remember the GNU hackers at the AI lab
calling their systems GNU/Solaris or GNU/Ultrix or GNU/BSD when they had
replaced various parts with GNU utilities. The only GNU OS was going to be
HURD.
In many of those years, various projects wanted to be called the equivalent
of 'GNU/Linux' were told that wasn't something that the GNU project wanted
to do. People were told that working on Linux was a distraction and should
be a non-goal instead of working on HURD. Or that they needed to ship
things in a way which met certain 'moral' points of 'pure Free software'
which made the systems unbootable outside of a small set of shipped
systems.
Fast forward a bunch of years and HURD not getting done. Then it becomes a
'Every Linux OS is a GNU OS variant and should be called GNU/Linux' with a
yearly push to relabel everything as GNU/Linux. And a yearly fight in the
mailing lists where various people say no or yes.
--
Stephen J Smoogen.
12:02 p.m.
On 3/22/21 6:56 AM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
My main problem is that for a good portion of the 1990's the GNU
operating system was HURD and any and all work on Linux was seen as a
major distraction and removal of resources from the more important
operating system. In the early 1990's, I don't remember the GNU
hackers at the AI lab calling their systems GNU/Solaris or GNU/Ultrix
or GNU/BSD when they had replaced various parts with GNU utilities.
That's partially true, they didn't (as far as I know). But I think they
viewed that situation -- using a kernel other than their own -- as
temporary. As far as I know, they referred to their OS as GNU
consistently, and only started using the variant name GNU/Linux when it
became clear that the arrangement of having a GNU OS with a kernel other
than their own was a long-term arrangement. That all seems very
logical, to me.
People were told that working on Linux was a distraction and should
be
a non-goal instead of working on HURD...
As a rationale, your explanation as a whole seems retaliatory, to me.
"The GNU project encouraged its volunteers to work on HURD instead of
Linux, so we'll not speak their name because this makes us unhappy."
That doesn't seem like the kind of respectful, friendly environment that
Fedora explicitly is trying to foster. And that's why I think the name
"Fedora", by itself, is better. That name is neutral to the topic of
whether Linux or GNU/Linux is the OS that Fedora extends, rather than a
statement about our feelings toward the GNU project.
1:16 p.m.
On Mon, 22 Mar 2021 at 13:04, Gordon Messmer <gordon.messmer(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
On 3/22/21 6:56 AM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
>
>
> My main problem is that for a good portion of the 1990's the GNU
> operating system was HURD and any and all work on Linux was seen as a
> major distraction and removal of resources from the more important
> operating system. In the early 1990's, I don't remember the GNU
> hackers at the AI lab calling their systems GNU/Solaris or GNU/Ultrix
> or GNU/BSD when they had replaced various parts with GNU utilities.
That's partially true, they didn't (as far as I know). But I think they
viewed that situation -- using a kernel other than their own -- as
temporary. As far as I know, they referred to their OS as GNU
consistently, and only started using the variant name GNU/Linux when it
became clear that the arrangement of having a GNU OS with a kernel other
than their own was a long-term arrangement. That all seems very
logical, to me.
> People were told that working on Linux was a distraction and should be
> a non-goal instead of working on HURD...
As a rationale, your explanation as a whole seems retaliatory, to me.
"The GNU project encouraged its volunteers to work on HURD instead of
Linux, so we'll not speak their name because this makes us unhappy."
No that is not what I meant. However it is clear that this isn't helping
any.. so consider me <plonking> myself from this thread.
That doesn't seem like the kind of respectful, friendly
environment that
Fedora explicitly is trying to foster. And that's why I think the name
"Fedora", by itself, is better. That name is neutral to the topic of
whether Linux or GNU/Linux is the OS that Fedora extends, rather than a
statement about our feelings toward the GNU project.
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--
Stephen J Smoogen.
3:34 p.m.
On Monday, March 22, 2021 5:02:47 PM WET Gordon Messmer wrote:
As a rationale, your explanation as a whole seems retaliatory, to
me.
"The GNU project encouraged its volunteers to work on HURD instead of
Linux, so we'll not speak their name because this makes us unhappy."
That doesn't seem like the kind of respectful, friendly environment that
Fedora explicitly is trying to foster. And that's why I think the name
"Fedora", by itself, is better. That name is neutral to the topic of
whether Linux or GNU/Linux is the OS that Fedora extends, rather than a
statement about our feelings toward the GNU project.
I am sorry but I fail to see how this is the case. How are the statements not
respectful?
If you followed the discussion at the time that Stephen describes this is an
accurate description of state of affairs. Just because you disagree it does
not make it false.
Just the first citation I found from reading LWN.net:
https://lwn.net/Articles/395150/
There he find a reference to h-online:
From
http://www.h-online.com/open/features/GNU-HURD-Altered-visions-and-lost-p...
And there it says:
"""
The Free Software Foundation was initially sceptical of the capabilities of
Linux as a portable operating system. Initial versions only ran on the IBM
386. According to Stallman: "We heard that Linux was not at all portable (this
may not be true today, but that's what we heard then). And we heard that Linux
was architecturally on a par with the Unix kernel; our work was leading to
something much more powerful".
"""
We own a lot to the GNU project but that does not make it immune to critics.
--
José Abílio
8:40 p.m.
José Abílio Matos wrote:
And there it says:
"""
The Free Software Foundation was initially sceptical of the capabilities
of Linux as a portable operating system. Initial versions only ran on the
IBM 386. According to Stallman: "We heard that Linux was not at all
portable (this may not be true today, but that's what we heard then). And
we heard that Linux was architecturally on a par with the Unix kernel; our
work was leading to something much more powerful".
"""
Please keep in mind that Linus Torvalds himself announced his project with
the words: "It is NOT protable" [sic] "(uses 386 task switching
etc),". [1]
The portability came much later, after major changes (such as rewriting
assembly code in C or making it selectable by platform). So it is not fair
to blame the FSF for not believing in the portability of Linux (the kernel)
at the very beginning. Nobody did, not even Linus himself.
[1] https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.minix/c/dlNtH7RRrGA/m/SwRavCzVE7gJ?pli=1
Kevin Kofler
3:54 a.m.
On Tuesday, March 23, 2021 1:40:11 AM WET Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
Please keep in mind that Linus Torvalds himself announced his project
with
the words: "It is NOT protable" [sic] "(uses 386 task switching
etc),". [1]
The portability came much later, after major changes (such as rewriting
assembly code in C or making it selectable by platform). So it is not fair
to blame the FSF for not believing in the portability of Linux (the kernel)
at the very beginning. Nobody did, not even Linus himself.
[1]
https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.minix/c/dlNtH7RRrGA/m/SwRavCzVE7gJ?pli=
1
Kevin Kofler
Yes, but by 1994 when linux was ported to the DEC Alpha you could see that
things were changing. So the much later is not much later than that. :-)
I have fond memories of one of those machines where running Linux there made
all the difference. :-)
The only issue that we had was that with linux 2 the network driver, a Tulip,
was removed from the kernel. OK, I could have swapped the network driver, but
by that time it was not worth anymore. :-)
--
José Abílio
3:03 p.m.
Once upon a time, Stephen John Smoogen <smooge(a)gmail.com> said:
My main problem is that for a good portion of the 1990's the GNU
operating
system was HURD and any and all work on Linux was seen as a major
distraction and removal of resources from the more important operating
system. In the early 1990's, I don't remember the GNU hackers at the AI lab
calling their systems GNU/Solaris or GNU/Ultrix or GNU/BSD when they had
replaced various parts with GNU utilities. The only GNU OS was going to be
HURD.
Also, a new community developed around systems running the Linux kernel,
and that community made significant contributions to GNU projects.
AFAIK at the time, nobody else was really trying to run a whole system
on things like glibc and coreutils (which was separate packages at the
time IIRC). A lot of functionality in those projects exists because the
Linux community got it done.
So to me, claiming that the resulting system must be GNU/Linux is
ignoring that a lot of GNU stuff would not be where it is today without
the Linux community - should glibc be called Linux/GNU libc? I don't
believe so, just like I don't believe an OS assembled from Linux, GNU,
and many other bits should be called GNU/Linux.
Also, Linux is more than just a kernel - there are a number of userland
bits that are Linux specific (often because GNU didn't have them and the
various BSDs' equivalents wouldn't fit the Linux way). For example,
iproute and net-tools come to mind.
--
Chris Adams <linux(a)cmadams.net>
6:26 a.m.
Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote:
2. Why Linux and not GNU/Linux? Linux is just a kernel. GNU/Linux is
an OS.
It was very predictable that this argument would happen, and that's why
I've been quite happy that Fedora is just "Fedora" with no "Linux"
in
the name.
If we're going to name the distribution after some of its components,
why stop at one or two? Arguably the most central part of any software
distribution is its package manager. The programs that bring up the
whole system are also rather important. And none of the GUI programs
would exist without the windowing system so we need to mention X. Or
should that honor go to Wayland now? Better give them equal treatment.
"Fedora GNU/Linux/RPM/Python/DNF/SystemD/Xorg/Wayland/..."
It's better to give the whole distribution its own name, and not name
it after any of its components. Fedora is a software distribution. It
contains Linux, many GNU components, RPM, MariaDB, Libreoffice and lots
of other things, but its name is "Fedora". Or call it "Fedora Software
Distribution" or anything else that doesn't single out any of the
components. That approach seems to minimize the political fighting.
Björn Persson
9:08 a.m.
On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 13:26:55 +0100
Björn Persson <Bjorn(a)xn--rombobjrn-67a.se> wrote:
It's better to give the whole distribution its own name, and not
name
it after any of its components. Fedora is a software distribution. It
contains Linux, many GNU components, RPM, MariaDB, Libreoffice and
lots of other things, but its name is "Fedora". Or call it "Fedora
Software Distribution" or anything else that doesn't single out any
of the components. That approach seems to minimize the political
fighting.
How about "Fedora Endeavors"? Nice double meaning, too. :-)
10:13 a.m.
For me I go with your first suggestion:
Keep it simple for the OS, just fedora, as it already is; and for the
overall effort, Fedora Project. It works already.
Em qua, 10 de mar de 2021 09:27, Björn Persson <Bjorn(a)xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
escreveu:
Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote:
> 2. Why Linux and not GNU/Linux? Linux is just a kernel. GNU/Linux is an
OS.
It was very predictable that this argument would happen, and that's why
I've been quite happy that Fedora is just "Fedora" with no
"Linux" in
the name.
If we're going to name the distribution after some of its components,
why stop at one or two? Arguably the most central part of any software
distribution is its package manager. The programs that bring up the
whole system are also rather important. And none of the GUI programs
would exist without the windowing system so we need to mention X. Or
should that honor go to Wayland now? Better give them equal treatment.
"Fedora GNU/Linux/RPM/Python/DNF/SystemD/Xorg/Wayland/..."
It's better to give the whole distribution its own name, and not name
it after any of its components. Fedora is a software distribution. It
contains Linux, many GNU components, RPM, MariaDB, Libreoffice and lots
of other things, but its name is "Fedora". Or call it "Fedora Software
Distribution" or anything else that doesn't single out any of the
components. That approach seems to minimize the political fighting.
Björn Persson
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10:38 p.m.
On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 01:26:55PM +0100, Björn Persson wrote:
If we're going to name the distribution after some of its
components,
why stop at one or two?
...
It's better to give the whole distribution its own name, and not
name
it after any of its components. Fedora is a software distribution. It
contains Linux, many GNU components, RPM, MariaDB, Libreoffice and lots
of other things, but its name is "Fedora". Or call it "Fedora Software
Distribution" or anything else that doesn't single out any of the
components. That approach seems to minimize the political fighting.
FreeBSD is just FreeBSD and BSD stands for Berkeley Software Distribution.
Maybe we should use Fedora Software Distribution. But I rather like
just plain "Fedora".
10:10 a.m.
Dne 09. 03. 21 v 15:33 Ben Cotton napsal(a):
This change isn't big — it is simply expanding
* <tt>NAME=Fedora</tt> to <tt>NAME="Fedora Linux"</tt>
and
* <tt>PRETTY_NAME="Fedora Linux [##] ([edition or spin])</tt>
in the file <tt>/etc/os-release</tt>.
The short identifier <tt>ID=fedora</tt> will remain the same, so scripted
interactions should be unaffected.
python-distro and mock is using this information. I just tested it and this change should
not change the behavior of
this two projects.
--
Miroslav Suchy, RHCA
Red Hat, Associate Manager, Community Packaging Tools, #brno, #fedora-buildsys
11:20 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 05:10:46PM +0100, Miroslav Suchý wrote:
Dne 09. 03. 21 v 15:33 Ben Cotton napsal(a):
>
> This change isn't big — it is simply expanding
>
> * <tt>NAME=Fedora</tt> to <tt>NAME="Fedora
Linux"</tt> and
> * <tt>PRETTY_NAME="Fedora Linux [##] ([edition or spin])</tt>
>
> in the file <tt>/etc/os-release</tt>.
>
> The short identifier <tt>ID=fedora</tt> will remain the same, so
scripted interactions should be unaffected.
python-distro and mock is using this information. I just tested it and this
change should not change the behavior of this two projects.
libguestfs parses os-release to identify guest OS, but it only uses
the ID field for functional logic, and PRETTY_NAME merely as an
informative value. So there's no risk of regression to virt image
identification that I see.
Regards,
Daniel
--
|: https://berrange.com -o- https://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange :|
|: https://libvirt.org -o- https://fstop138.berrange.com :|
|: https://entangle-photo.org -o- https://www.instagram.com/dberrange :|
11:22 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 05:20:30PM +0000, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:
> > The short identifier <tt>ID=fedora</tt> will
remain the same, so scripted interactions should be unaffected.
>
> python-distro and mock is using this information. I just tested it and this
> change should not change the behavior of this two projects.
libguestfs parses os-release to identify guest OS, but it only uses
the ID field for functional logic, and PRETTY_NAME merely as an
informative value. So there's no risk of regression to virt image
identification that I see.
Thanks to both of you for checking!
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
10:37 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 9:33 am, Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Fedora is made of people! When used by itself, the term
"Fedora"
refers to the Fedora Project. When referring to our work, please use
either a specific name like <i>Fedora Workstation</i>, <i>Fedora
CoreOS</i>, or <i>Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop</i>; or use <i>Fedora
Linux</i> to refer to the OS distribution as a whole.
This effort is never going to be successful because "Fedora Linux"
requires twice as much typing as "Fedora."
10:54 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 10:37:02AM -0600, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 9:33 am, Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
>Fedora is made of people! When used by itself, the term "Fedora"
>refers to the Fedora Project. When referring to our work, please
>use either a specific name like <i>Fedora Workstation</i>,
><i>Fedora CoreOS</i>, or <i>Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop</i>; or
use
><i>Fedora Linux</i> to refer to the OS distribution as a whole.
This effort is never going to be successful because "Fedora Linux"
requires twice as much typing as "Fedora."
_This_ change doesn't depend on changing anyone's typing habits at all; no
one has to type anything except me in making the PR and the releng package
owner in accepting that PR.
And on the overall effort... I know people who (still) call Microsoft Word
"Microsoft". We don't need to reach 100% compliance (or any other metric)
to
be an improvement. (I do ask people to consider it in official
communications, though, and I don't think it's too onerous of a request
there either, as we are already careful about wording and brand usage in
such communications.)
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
11:13 a.m.
Am 09.03.21 um 17:54 schrieb Matthew Miller:
We don't need to reach 100% compliance (or any other metric)
to
be an improvement.
I don't think adding "Linux" is an improvement. Everyone who does not
think of a hat first, when someone mentions Fedora, already knows, this
is a Linux distribution called Fedora.
I'm also pretty sure, that the Linux Kernel is the most important part
of the distro, but compared in size to all that what the Fedora
distribution contains, it's just a tiny little fragment.
best regards,
Marius Schwarz
10:58 a.m.
Are we going to change also our logo to be consistent?
Vít
Dne 09. 03. 21 v 15:33 Ben Cotton napsal(a):
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Fedora_Linux_in_os-release
<https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Fedora_Linux_in_os-release>
== Summary ==
"Fedora" is the name of our project. Our general-purpose Linux
distribution is "Fedora Linux". Let's refer to it that way in the OS
itself.
== Owner ==
* Name: [[User:mattdm| Matthew Miller]]
* Email: mattdm At fedoraproject.org <http://fedoraproject.org>
(bugzilla: mattdm AT redhat.com <http://redhat.com>)
== Detailed Description ==
This change isn't big — it is simply expanding
* <tt>NAME=Fedora</tt> to <tt>NAME="Fedora Linux"</tt>
and
* <tt>PRETTY_NAME="Fedora Linux [##] ([edition or spin])</tt>
in the file <tt>/etc/os-release</tt>.
The short identifier <tt>ID=fedora</tt> will remain the same, so
scripted interactions should be unaffected.
== Feedback ==
Community Blog article posted:
https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedora-is-a-community-fedora-linu...
<https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedora-is-a-community-fedora-linu...
== Benefit to Fedora ==
The distinction between our project and our output is important,
because as a project and a community we are more than the bits we
produce — and, we produce more things (including software bits!) from
that included in the Fedora Linux distribution.
We make EPEL, ELN, and thousands of packages in Copr. These are all
part of Fedora — but aren't Fedora Linux. We also make artwork, music,
documentation, videos, websites, tools, and more. These things too are
part of our project, but aren't part of the Fedora Linux distribution.
The habit of calling just one thing we make "Fedora" makes it hard to
talk about the project and all of the things we do within our
[https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/#_our_mission
<https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/#_our_mission> mission].
Of course, years of colloquial usage can't be changed overnight, but
changing the place where we officially identify the operating system
name is an important start. Rather than a big education campaign,
let's fix our own usage and go from there.
== Scope ==
* Proposal owners: Will submit a PR for the <tt>fedora-release</tt>
package.
* Other developers: Should be no impact, but may need to update any
scripts using <TT>NAME</TT> instead of <TT>ID</TT>.
* Release engineering: To review and accept the PR when ready.
* Policies and guidelines: This change itself does not represent a
change to policies, but it's good to consider where usage can be
changed in existing documents.
* Trademark approval: Not required. Note that this has been cleared by
Fedora Legal.
* Alignment with Objectives: No specific objective but aligns with a
Council goal.
== Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
Updated systems will get the new <tt>/etc/os-release</tt> file and
will see changes in the text-mode login prompt and in places like "OS
Name" in the About panel in GNOME.
== How To Test ==
1. Update to test version of Fedora 35
2. Observe name change in <tt>/etc/os-release</tt>
3. Optionally, observe name change in GNOME Settings, text-mode login
screens, neofetch, etc.
It would also be useful to test any third-party software which may
mistakenly look at <tt>NAME</tt> instead of <tt>ID</tt>.
== User Experience ==
Users will see the distribution referred to as "Fedora Linux" rather
than just "Fedora".
== Dependencies ==
None.
== Contingency Plan ==
* Contingency mechanism: Change owner or release engineering will
revert the change to <tt>fedora-release</tt>
* Contingency deadline: Decision should be made at beta, but in the
unlikely event of disaster this could be reverted right up until the
last minute.
* Blocks release? No.
== Documentation ==
Fedora is made of people! When used by itself, the term "Fedora"
refers to the Fedora Project. When referring to our work, please use
either a specific name like <i>Fedora Workstation</i>, <i>Fedora
CoreOS</i>, or <i>Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop</i>; or use <i>Fedora
Linux</i> to refer to the OS distribution as a whole.
== Release Notes ==
Note: Fedora is made of people! When used by itself, the term "Fedora"
refers to the Fedora Project. When referring to our work, please use
either a specific name like <i>Fedora Workstation</i>, <i>Fedora
CoreOS</i>, or <i>Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop</i>; or use <i>Fedora
Linux</i> to refer to the OS distribution as a whole.
--
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Senior Program Manager, Fedora & CentOS Stream
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
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12:02 p.m.
Dne 09. 03. 21 v 18:05 Matthew Miller napsal(a):
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 05:58:47PM +0100, Vít Ondruch wrote:
> Are we going to change also our logo to be consistent?
As part of the new logo rollout, in places where it makes sense, yes.
Are we going to move from getfedora.org to getfedoralinux.org?
Vít
12:11 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 07:02:10PM +0100, Vít Ondruch wrote:
Are we going to move from getfedora.org to getfedoralinux.org?
Websites/design are still looking at the plan for the next generation of the
user-oriented "brochure" websites. Remember, we don't have to solve all
things immediately and at the same time.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
2:27 a.m.
How about changing /etc/redhat-release ? I am specifically asking this
in the context of Vagrant, which seems to use this file to detect Fedora.
Vít
Dne 09. 03. 21 v 19:11 Matthew Miller napsal(a):
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 07:02:10PM +0100, Vít Ondruch wrote:
> Are we going to move from getfedora.org to getfedoralinux.org?
Websites/design are still looking at the plan for the next generation of the
user-oriented "brochure" websites. Remember, we don't have to solve all
things immediately and at the same time.
8:24 a.m.
On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 09:27:49AM +0100, Vít Ondruch wrote:
How about changing /etc/redhat-release ? I am specifically asking
this in the context of Vagrant, which seems to use this file to
detect Fedora.
That does seem to be set from NAME, and Vagrant does this:
https://github.com/hashicorp/vagrant/blob/main/plugins/guests/fedora/gues...
machine.communicate.test("grep 'Fedora release'
/etc/redhat-release")
I'll file an issue. Thanks.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
11:19 a.m.
On Tuesday, March 9, 2021, Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com> wrote:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Fedora_Linux_in_os-release
== Summary ==
"Fedora" is the name of our project. Our general-purpose Linux
distribution is "Fedora Linux". Let's refer to it that way in the OS
itself.
== Owner ==
* Name: [[User:mattdm| Matthew Miller]]
* Email: mattdm At fedoraproject.org (bugzilla: mattdm AT redhat.com)
== Detailed Description ==
This change isn't big — it is simply expanding
* <tt>NAME=Fedora</tt> to <tt>NAME="Fedora Linux"</tt>
and
* <tt>PRETTY_NAME="Fedora Linux [##] ([edition or spin])</tt>
in the file <tt>/etc/os-release</tt>.
The short identifier <tt>ID=fedora</tt> will remain the same, so scripted
interactions should be unaffected.
== Feedback ==
Community Blog article posted: https://communityblog.
fedoraproject.org/fedora-is-a-community-fedora-linux-is-our-os/
== Benefit to Fedora ==
The distinction between our project and our output is important, because
as a project and a community we are more than the bits we produce — and, we
produce more things (including software bits!) from that included in the
Fedora Linux distribution.
We make EPEL, ELN, and thousands of packages in Copr. These are all part
of Fedora — but aren't Fedora Linux. We also make artwork, music,
documentation, videos, websites, tools, and more. These things too are part
of our project, but aren't part of the Fedora Linux distribution. The habit
of calling just one thing we make "Fedora" makes it hard to talk about the
project and all of the things we do within our [
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/#_our_mission mission].
Of course, years of colloquial usage can't be changed overnight, but
changing the place where we officially identify the operating system name
is an important start. Rather than a big education campaign, let's fix our
own usage and go from there.
== Scope ==
* Proposal owners: Will submit a PR for the <tt>fedora-release</tt>
package.
* Other developers: Should be no impact, but may need to update any
scripts using <TT>NAME</TT> instead of <TT>ID</TT>.
* Release engineering: To review and accept the PR when ready.
* Policies and guidelines: This change itself does not represent a change
to policies, but it's good to consider where usage can be changed in
existing documents.
* Trademark approval: Not required. Note that this has been cleared by
Fedora Legal.
* Alignment with Objectives: No specific objective but aligns with a
Council goal.
== Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
Updated systems will get the new <tt>/etc/os-release</tt> file and will
see changes in the text-mode login prompt and in places like "OS Name" in
the About panel in GNOME.
== How To Test ==
1. Update to test version of Fedora 35
2. Observe name change in <tt>/etc/os-release</tt>
3. Optionally, observe name change in GNOME Settings, text-mode login
screens, neofetch, etc.
It would also be useful to test any third-party software which may
mistakenly look at <tt>NAME</tt> instead of <tt>ID</tt>.
== User Experience ==
Users will see the distribution referred to as "Fedora Linux" rather than
just "Fedora".
== Dependencies ==
None.
== Contingency Plan ==
* Contingency mechanism: Change owner or release engineering will revert
the change to <tt>fedora-release</tt>
* Contingency deadline: Decision should be made at beta, but in the
unlikely event of disaster this could be reverted right up until the last
minute.
* Blocks release? No.
== Documentation ==
Fedora is made of people! When used by itself, the term "Fedora" refers to
the Fedora Project. When referring to our work, please use either a
specific name like <i>Fedora Workstation</i>, <i>Fedora
CoreOS</i>, or
<i>Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop</i>; or use <i>Fedora Linux</i> to
refer to
the OS distribution as a whole.
== Release Notes ==
Note: Fedora is made of people! When used by itself, the term "Fedora"
refers to the Fedora Project. When referring to our work, please use either
a specific name like <i>Fedora Workstation</i>, <i>Fedora
CoreOS</i>, or
<i>Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop</i>; or use <i>Fedora Linux</i> to
refer to
the OS distribution as a whole.
This doesn't seem to solve any real world problem, there is nothing wrong
with just leaving it as is.
--
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Senior Program Manager, Fedora & CentOS Stream
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
11:37 a.m.
On 09. 03. 21 15:33, Ben Cotton wrote:
...
* Trademark approval: Not required. Note that this has been cleared by Fedora Legal.
As a change proposal, this will need to pass a FESCo vote. From FESCo
perspective, I think we should make sure it doesn't break stuff (and many have
already checked and confirmed here, thanks!).
However, I think the Council should vote on whether we actually want this, not
FESCo.
--
Miro Hrončok
--
Phone: +420777974800
IRC: mhroncok
11:40 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 12:38 PM Miro Hrončok <mhroncok(a)redhat.com> wrote:
On 09. 03. 21 15:33, Ben Cotton wrote:
> ...
> * Trademark approval: Not required. Note that this has been cleared by Fedora
Legal.
As a change proposal, this will need to pass a FESCo vote. From FESCo
perspective, I think we should make sure it doesn't break stuff (and many have
already checked and confirmed here, thanks!).
However, I think the Council should vote on whether we actually want this, not
FESCo.
I personally think this is a fine change to make. FESCo can certainly
approve the mechanics of this change, but I expect a Fedora Council
approval at the project level to correspond to this. I don't see a
ticket for this there, and I'd be more comfortable with one being made
and voted on before FESCo does.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
11:50 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 12:40:50PM -0500, Neal Gompa wrote:
I personally think this is a fine change to make. FESCo can
certainly
approve the mechanics of this change, but I expect a Fedora Council
approval at the project level to correspond to this. I don't see a
ticket for this there, and I'd be more comfortable with one being made
and voted on before FESCo does.
Sure, I can add that.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
12:13 p.m.
The change is indeed not big and it will probably not change the fact that most people
will still refer to "Fedora" as "Fedora" but I agree that it is a good
move to name and distinguish things properly in the documentation and system information.
It was always odd to me that RHEL was called "Red Hat Enterprise Linux", CentOS
was "CentOS Linux" but Fedora was always just "Fedora", so I guess it
will also make things more consistent.
12:41 p.m.
Ben Cotton píše v Út 09. 03. 2021 v 09:33 -0500:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Fedora_Linux_in_os-release
== Summary ==
"Fedora" is the name of our project. Our general-purpose Linux
distribution is "Fedora Linux". Let's refer to it that way in the OS
itself.
This change is not a big deal for me, but IMO we're better off as it is
now.
We used to write books on MandrakeLinux and Mandriva Linux. Everyone
just called them Mandrake and Mandriva, but we always had to make sure
we didn't miss the Linux part of the name anywhere in the book to call
it the right way. It felt artificial and unccessary.
It will be the same here. If the main reason for changing the name is
to emphasize that it's a Linux-based OS, then it makes sense. If the
main reason is to distinguish the community and the product, then I
don't think it's going to help much. We've already had that distiction:
Fedora Project <-> Fedora.
Many people call both Fedora and that's not gonna change with this.
Also it doesn't come together very nicely with the edition naming.
We've got Fedora Linux, but Fedora Workstation, Fedora Server, Fedora
IoT? Those are not Linux-based since the "Linux" part is dropped from
their name? It has potential to create more confusion.
Jiri
12:57 p.m.
Another pointless change that adds nothing and will cause breakages.
Shouldn't we be given a vote on this?
4:11 p.m.
Once upon a time, Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com> said:
This change isn't big — it is simply expanding
* <tt>NAME=Fedora</tt> to <tt>NAME="Fedora Linux"</tt>
and
* <tt>PRETTY_NAME="Fedora Linux [##] ([edition or spin])</tt>
in the file <tt>/etc/os-release</tt>.
I have seen third-party install scripts and such that parse that file
and look for "Fedora" to take actions/set variables/etc. for Fedora
Linux. You can say "we don't support third-party anything", but it's
still going to cause issues for some users.
Is there any plan for the Fedora Project to make another full OS (that
would have a different value in os-release)? Or is this just a
pre-emptive "we might someday"?
--
Chris Adams <linux(a)cmadams.net>
4:22 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 10:12 PM Chris Adams <linux(a)cmadams.net> wrote:
Once upon a time, Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com> said:
> This change isn't big — it is simply expanding
>
> * <tt>NAME=Fedora</tt> to <tt>NAME="Fedora
Linux"</tt> and
> * <tt>PRETTY_NAME="Fedora Linux [##] ([edition or spin])</tt>
>
> in the file <tt>/etc/os-release</tt>.
I have seen third-party install scripts and such that parse that file
and look for "Fedora" to take actions/set variables/etc. for Fedora
Linux. You can say "we don't support third-party anything", but it's
still going to cause issues for some users.
Do they parse the NAME field instead of the ID field? All the times I have
seen people trying to identify the OS they use the ID field, which this
change is going to leave alone - so I would imagine that this will have a
very low impact on doing system ID.
-Ian
4:40 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 04:11:55PM -0600, Chris Adams wrote:
I have seen third-party install scripts and such that parse that
file
and look for "Fedora" to take actions/set variables/etc. for Fedora
Linux. You can say "we don't support third-party anything", but it's
still going to cause issues for some users.
That's why I'm filing this for F35, so there's time to change. Scripts that
are looking at NAME rather than ID aren't following the spec correctly and
should be updated.
Is there any plan for the Fedora Project to make another full OS
(that
would have a different value in os-release)? Or is this just a
pre-emptive "we might someday"?
I don't think that's a requirement; we have non-OS Fedora Things that aren't
part of Fedora Linux. It's confusing for bare "Fedora" to mean the OS, but
lose that when another word is put after it.
This certainly would be useful if openSUSE takes up my offer to come under
our umbrella, though. :)
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
4:25 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 2:34 PM Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com> wrote:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Fedora_Linux_in_os-release
== Summary ==
"Fedora" is the name of our project. Our general-purpose Linux
distribution is "Fedora Linux". Let's refer to it that way in the OS
itself.
== Owner ==
* Name: [[User:mattdm| Matthew Miller]]
* Email: mattdm At fedoraproject.org (bugzilla: mattdm AT redhat.com)
== Detailed Description ==
This change isn't big — it is simply expanding
* <tt>NAME=Fedora</tt> to <tt>NAME="Fedora Linux"</tt>
and
* <tt>PRETTY_NAME="Fedora Linux [##] ([edition or spin])</tt>
in the file <tt>/etc/os-release</tt>.
The short identifier <tt>ID=fedora</tt> will remain the same, so scripted
interactions should be unaffected.
...snip...
== Release Notes ==
Note: Fedora is made of people! When used by itself, the term "Fedora"
refers to the Fedora Project. When referring to our work, please use either
a specific name like <i>Fedora Workstation</i>, <i>Fedora
CoreOS</i>, or
<i>Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop</i>; or use <i>Fedora Linux</i> to
refer to
the OS distribution as a whole.
This doesn't really sound like something that gets included in a software
release notes page. Can we have a technical description in the release
notes as well please? It would be good to explicitly say that the
key changed in the release notes, and the format/structure of the new keys
in the file.
-Ian
4:40 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 10:25:31PM +0000, Ian McInerney wrote:
This doesn't really sound like something that gets included in a
software
release notes page. Can we have a technical description in the release
notes as well please? It would be good to explicitly say that the
key changed in the release notes, and the format/structure of the new keys
in the file.
That's a good point; thanks!
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
8:58 p.m.
New subject: Fwd: F35 Change: "Fedora Linux" in /etc/os-release
"Fedora" is the name of our project. Our general-purpose
Linux distribution is "Fedora Linux". Let's refer to it that way in the OS
itself.
Does Fedora have some other product? A dessert topping? A floor wax?
Perhaps a hip new dance choreography, taking the world by storm? Is it
recognizable as a distinct trademarked item?
Overall, ust..... no. Deliberately breaking every ansible, chef, or
other deployment tools that check /etc/os-release for a consistent
operating system reference name is not a benefit to anyone.
9:19 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 9:58 PM Nico Kadel-Garcia <nkadel(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> "Fedora" is the name of our project. Our general-purpose Linux
distribution is "Fedora Linux". Let's refer to it that way in the OS
itself.
Does Fedora have some other product? A dessert topping? A floor wax?
Perhaps a hip new dance choreography, taking the world by storm? Is it
recognizable as a distinct trademarked item?
Fedora actually *has* other things branded Fedora today, and may do so
for more things in the future. They don't have the opportunity to get
attention because our ability to present ourselves beyond the Linux
distribution sucks.
Overall, ust..... no. Deliberately breaking every ansible, chef, or
other deployment tools that check /etc/os-release for a consistent
operating system reference name is not a benefit to anyone.
Ansible uses ID and VERSION_ID, which are not changing, so this will
have no impact there.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
6:54 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 10:19:53PM -0500, Neal Gompa wrote:
Fedora actually *has* other things branded Fedora today, and may do
so
for more things in the future. They don't have the opportunity to get
attention because our ability to present ourselves beyond the Linux
distribution sucks.
> Overall, ust..... no. Deliberately breaking every ansible, chef, or
> other deployment tools that check /etc/os-release for a consistent
> operating system reference name is not a benefit to anyone.
Ansible uses ID and VERSION_ID, which are not changing, so this will
have no impact there.
No, ansible uses NAME from /etc/os-release. ID is used only from
/usr/lib/os-release. See
https://github.com/ansible/ansible/blob/devel/lib/ansible/module_utils/fa...
But /etc/redhat-release seems to be preferred over /etc/os-release, so
I guess this change won't have an impact on the "distribution"
variable.
--
Miroslav Lichvar
9:22 p.m.
I'm +1 on "Fedora Linux". I believe it adds clarity, especially when
talking with software vendors. IE, "I'm running Fedora Linux" is less
ambiguous than having to explain that Fedora is Linux after telling your ISP's
support, etc., "I'm running Fedora."
9:36 p.m.
And, if Fedora Linux isn't clear enough, we can always abruptly rebrand it to Fedora
Stream in a few months. I don't think that would cause any confusion.
12:05 p.m.
On 10/03/21 03:22 -0000, Scott Williams wrote:
I'm +1 on "Fedora Linux". I believe it adds clarity,
especially when talking with software vendors. IE, "I'm running Fedora
Linux" is less ambiguous than having to explain that Fedora is Linux after telling
your ISP's support, etc., "I'm running Fedora."
I was already +1 for this change, but that's a great point that
makes me more strongly in favour of the change.
12:20 a.m.
Forwarding this announcement to beakerlib contributor - beakerlib, the
library for writing tests for Fedora/RHEL, has rlIsFedora function, so
IMO it parses /etc/os-release somehow.
Dalibor, any potential breakage in beakerlib regarding this change?
On 3/9/21 3:33 PM, Ben Cotton wrote:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Fedora_Linux_in_os-release
<https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Fedora_Linux_in_os-release>
== Summary ==
"Fedora" is the name of our project. Our general-purpose Linux
distribution is "Fedora Linux". Let's refer to it that way in the OS
itself.
== Owner ==
* Name: [[User:mattdm| Matthew Miller]]
* Email: mattdm At fedoraproject.org <http://fedoraproject.org>
(bugzilla: mattdm AT redhat.com <http://redhat.com>)
== Detailed Description ==
This change isn't big — it is simply expanding
* <tt>NAME=Fedora</tt> to <tt>NAME="Fedora Linux"</tt>
and
* <tt>PRETTY_NAME="Fedora Linux [##] ([edition or spin])</tt>
in the file <tt>/etc/os-release</tt>.
The short identifier <tt>ID=fedora</tt> will remain the same, so
scripted interactions should be unaffected.
== Feedback ==
Community Blog article
posted: https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedora-is-a-community-fed...
<https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedora-is-a-community-fedora-linu...
== Benefit to Fedora ==
The distinction between our project and our output is important,
because as a project and a community we are more than the bits we
produce — and, we produce more things (including software bits!) from
that included in the Fedora Linux distribution.
We make EPEL, ELN, and thousands of packages in Copr. These are all
part of Fedora — but aren't Fedora Linux. We also make artwork, music,
documentation, videos, websites, tools, and more. These things too are
part of our project, but aren't part of the Fedora Linux distribution.
The habit of calling just one thing we make "Fedora" makes it hard to
talk about the project and all of the things we do within our
[https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/#_our_mission
<https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/#_our_mission> mission].
Of course, years of colloquial usage can't be changed overnight, but
changing the place where we officially identify the operating system
name is an important start. Rather than a big education campaign,
let's fix our own usage and go from there.
== Scope ==
* Proposal owners: Will submit a PR for the <tt>fedora-release</tt>
package.
* Other developers: Should be no impact, but may need to update any
scripts using <TT>NAME</TT> instead of <TT>ID</TT>.
* Release engineering: To review and accept the PR when ready.
* Policies and guidelines: This change itself does not represent a
change to policies, but it's good to consider where usage can be
changed in existing documents.
* Trademark approval: Not required. Note that this has been cleared by
Fedora Legal.
* Alignment with Objectives: No specific objective but aligns with a
Council goal.
== Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
Updated systems will get the new <tt>/etc/os-release</tt> file and
will see changes in the text-mode login prompt and in places like "OS
Name" in the About panel in GNOME.
== How To Test ==
1. Update to test version of Fedora 35
2. Observe name change in <tt>/etc/os-release</tt>
3. Optionally, observe name change in GNOME Settings, text-mode login
screens, neofetch, etc.
It would also be useful to test any third-party software which may
mistakenly look at <tt>NAME</tt> instead of <tt>ID</tt>.
== User Experience ==
Users will see the distribution referred to as "Fedora Linux" rather
than just "Fedora".
== Dependencies ==
None.
== Contingency Plan ==
* Contingency mechanism: Change owner or release engineering will
revert the change to <tt>fedora-release</tt>
* Contingency deadline: Decision should be made at beta, but in the
unlikely event of disaster this could be reverted right up until the
last minute.
* Blocks release? No.
== Documentation ==
Fedora is made of people! When used by itself, the term "Fedora"
refers to the Fedora Project. When referring to our work, please use
either a specific name like <i>Fedora Workstation</i>, <i>Fedora
CoreOS</i>, or <i>Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop</i>; or use
<i>Fedora
Linux</i> to refer to the OS distribution as a whole.
== Release Notes ==
Note: Fedora is made of people! When used by itself, the term "Fedora"
refers to the Fedora Project. When referring to our work, please use
either a specific name like <i>Fedora Workstation</i>, <i>Fedora
CoreOS</i>, or <i>Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop</i>; or use
<i>Fedora
Linux</i> to refer to the OS distribution as a whole.
--
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Senior Program Manager, Fedora & CentOS Stream
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
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--
Zdenek Dohnal
Software Engineer
Red Hat Czech - Brno TPB-C
6:24 a.m.
We make EPEL, ELN, and thousands of packages in Copr. These are all
part of
Fedora — but aren't Fedora Linux. We also make artwork, music,
documentation, videos, websites, tools, and more. These things too are part
of our project, but aren't part of the Fedora Linux distribution.
ELN also contains Linux, doesn't it? EPEL doesn't contain Linux, but
Linux will always be present in the system when a package from EPEL is
used.
When referring to our work, please use either a
specific name like <i>Fedora Workstation</i>, <i>Fedora
CoreOS</i>, or
<i>Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop</i>; or use <i>Fedora Linux</i> to
refer to
the OS distribution as a whole.
I don't think "Linux" conveys the distinction between those things and
ELN. Someone who hears "Fedora Linux" won't understand that it comprises
both Workstation and CoreOS but not ELN. It would be better to come up
with another word to denote a collection of software distributions that
aren't "enterprise" distributions, and also not art, websites et cetera.
A word that captures the essence of how the things it covers differ from
all the other things.
Maybe something like "Fedora Family", because it's a number of closely
related distributions which are suitable for use at home?
Or something like "Fedora Flow", alluding to frequent releases and a
steady stream of updates?
Björn Persson
8:37 a.m.
On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 01:24:36PM +0100, Björn Persson wrote:
I don't think "Linux" conveys the distinction between
those things and
ELN. Someone who hears "Fedora Linux" won't understand that it comprises
both Workstation and CoreOS but not ELN. It would be better to come up
with another word to denote a collection of software distributions that
aren't "enterprise" distributions, and also not art, websites et cetera.
A word that captures the essence of how the things it covers differ from
all the other things.
Maybe something like "Fedora Family", because it's a number of closely
related distributions which are suitable for use at home?
Or something like "Fedora Flow", alluding to frequent releases and a
steady stream of updates?
I'm not _completely_ oppposed to the idea of an entirely new name, but
that's a big change, whereas this is just codifying something that has been
in use inconsistently for years.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
9:04 a.m.
Hi Matthew Miller,
I got mixed feeling, I understand the reason why but I don't quite
understand why you don't want to use "Fedora GNU/Linux". Read you
comment on others email but the is not much details. Could you explain
again in details? Perhaps explain on Wiki too..
p/s :
- Can we have a vote which name we want to use? :P
--
Email : Robbi Nespu <robbinespu AT SPAMFREE fedoraproject DOT org>
PGP fingerprint : D311 B5FF EEE6 0BE8 9C91 FA9E 0C81 FA30 3B3A 80BA
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9:21 a.m.
On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:15 AM Robbi Nespu
<robbinespu(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
I got mixed feeling, I understand the reason why but I don't quite
understand why you don't want to use "Fedora GNU/Linux". Read you
comment on others email but the is not much details. Could you explain
again in details?
From the Community Blog post[1]:
Why not use “Fedora GNU+Linux” or some similar name? We want to be
easy to say. The more words we add, the harder that is. And while GNU is an important part
of Fedora Linux, there are many other packages that make Fedora Linux what it is. “Linux”
is, for better or worse, the commonly-understood phrasing, so let’s just use that.
[1] https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedora-is-a-community-fedora-linu...
--
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Senior Program Manager, Fedora & CentOS Stream
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
10:11 a.m.
On Wed, 2021-03-10 at 10:21 -0500, Ben Cotton wrote:
...[snip]
From the Community Blog post[1]:
> Why not use “Fedora GNU+Linux” or some similar name? We want to be
> easy to say. The more words we add, the harder that is. And while
> GNU is an important part of Fedora Linux, there are many other
> packages that make Fedora Linux what it is. “Linux” is, for better
> or worse, the commonly-understood phrasing, so let’s just use that.
[1]
https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedora-is-a-community-fedora-linu...
I would have to agree with Matthew and Ben regarding the name. Fedora
began as a collection of like minded individuals who took the effort to
establish the four foudation prinicpals before assembling a working
distribution which itself is focused around FLOSS and is very specific
and firm about licensing requirements WRT what is allowed to ship as
part of the official distro. This Fedora community took on a greater
role than merely a linux distirbution, often times having a direct
impact on the greater linux community in the process. For my part, it
is in my own thoughts that I inherently differentiate between the
distro and some other aspect of the Fedora Project, when using the same
name for different aspects of Fedora
Project/Community/Magazine/Discussion/etc... So calling the distro, in
it's many official releases, Fedora-Linux at the code base level, so
the ID that packages/apps should be using to verify OS, is just a
programatic change that will have little to no affect in user level
usage, and minimal affect for dev's. Naming things is what people do,
and by clearly naming things we can easier differentiate between the
various aspects of what constitutes the Fedora Ecosystem.
Just my two cents worth.
Stephen
8:58 p.m.
On 3/10/21 11:21 PM, Ben Cotton wrote:
On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:15 AM Robbi Nespu
<robbinespu(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
> I got mixed feeling, I understand the reason why but I don't quite
> understand why you don't want to use "Fedora GNU/Linux". Read you
> comment on others email but the is not much details. Could you explain
> again in details?
From the Community Blog post[1]:
> Why not use “Fedora GNU+Linux” or some similar name? We want to be easy to say. The
more words we add, the harder that is. And while GNU is an important part of Fedora Linux,
there are many other packages that make Fedora Linux what it is. “Linux” is, for better or
worse, the commonly-understood phrasing, so let’s just use that.
[1]
https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedora-is-a-community-fedora-linu...
Only for this reason? erk..
Never mind, just do the changes. I am happy as long "Fedora" keyword is
there.
We should stop wasting time about systemd OS identifier on which name to
adopt.
--
Email : Robbi Nespu <robbinespu AT SPAMFREE fedoraproject DOT org>
PGP fingerprint : D311 B5FF EEE6 0BE8 9C91 FA9E 0C81 FA30 3B3A 80BA
PGP key : https://keybase.io/robbinespu/pgp_keys.asc
1:21 p.m.
uname -a
Linux fedora 5.12.0-0.rc2.165.fc35.x86_64 #1 SMP Sat Mar 6 16:32:15 UTC 2021 x86_64 x86_64
x86_64 GNU/Linux
Shouldn't fedora be capitalized?
1:30 p.m.
Please, keep simple "Fedora".
Don't make us ridiculous.
I vote -1.
ср, 10 мар. 2021 г., 22:22 Reon Beon via devel <
devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org>:
uname -a
Linux fedora 5.12.0-0.rc2.165.fc35.x86_64 #1 SMP Sat Mar 6 16:32:15 UTC
2021 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
Shouldn't fedora be capitalized?
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1:47 p.m.
I can already see huge misunderstandings outside of mailing lists.
In my opinion, “Fedora” is better.
-1.
Чт, 11 марта 2021 г. в 00:30, Vascom <vascom2(a)gmail.com>:
Please, keep simple "Fedora".
Don't make us ridiculous.
I vote -1.
ср, 10 мар. 2021 г., 22:22 Reon Beon via devel <
devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org>:
> uname -a
>
> Linux fedora 5.12.0-0.rc2.165.fc35.x86_64 #1 SMP Sat Mar 6 16:32:15 UTC
> 2021 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
>
> Shouldn't fedora be capitalized?
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1:58 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 12:47:44AM +0500, Vladislav Kazakov wrote:
I can already see huge misunderstandings outside of mailing lists.
In my opinion, “Fedora” is better.
Where are you seeing huge misunderstandings? What misunderstandings are
there? Are these misunderstandings the sole reason that your opinion is that
it's better to call the distribution just "Fedora", or are there other
reasons? How would you address my concerns about messaging for
not-the-main-distro parts of the Fedora Project overall? (For example: EPEL,
Copr, plus non-distro activities that go towards our mission and vision?)
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
1:02 a.m.
Sorry for being not constructive. I'll try to explain my point of view.
Where are you seeing huge misunderstandings?
In Fedora and
other Linux communities (not eng, btw).
What misunderstandings are there?
To my surprise, I saw how a
person who perfectly knows the difference between Fedora Project and Fedora Linux distro,
after reading the news about the renaming, only got confused in the difference.
In discussions on news portals, I see that people do not understand the purpose of
renaming. They discuss things like Linux vs GNU/Linux and Fedora distro vs Fedora
Workstation (what?).
This noise around does not contribute in any way to achive the main goal.
Are these misunderstandings the sole reason that your opinion is
that
it's better to call the distribution just "Fedora", or are there other
reasons?
There are few other reasons, of course.
1. Usually when I hear "Fedora", it is about Linux distro and it always clear
from context.
When it comes to EPEL, ELN and other things, most often other words are used (such as
Fedora Project or Fedora EPEL).
The difference can be understood from context anyway.
2. "Fedora" and "Fedora Linux" are understood and will be understood
in the same way.
People who are confused now will not stop confusing after renaming.
3. People will not stop talking "Fedora" instead of "Fedora Linux".
There was a very good example about universuty renaming.
Another example:
2001 - Mac OS X, 2012 - OS X, 2016 - MacOS.
Apple returned to its roots, because many people did not even know that the correct name
is OS X (and not Mac OS).
And this despite the fact that they wrote everywhere OS X.
4. "Fedora" just nicer and simplier.
Will "getfedora.org" be renamed to "getfedoralinux.org"?
The devil is in the details here: general perception depends on little "nice and
simple" things.
How would you address my concerns about messaging for
not-the-main-distro parts of the Fedora Project overall?
I respect your concerns.
But I think (and all my message about it) that renaming will not help.
I have nothing against renaming by itself, but think it isn't really needed (according
to Occam's razor).
Initially, I did not want to discuss this at all, but after one incident with me in one of
the Fedora-specific communities, I am now here and I am writing this.
P. S. I'm new to the Fedora community. So I try to look at the problem from the
outside.
1:46 p.m.
On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 07:21:44PM -0000, Reon Beon via devel wrote:
uname -a
Linux fedora 5.12.0-0.rc2.165.fc35.x86_64 #1 SMP Sat Mar 6 16:32:15 UTC 2021 x86_64
x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
Shouldn't fedora be capitalized?
No. The 2nd word of the output of "uname -a" is the nodename
(hostname), so it just outputs the value of the system's hostname
there. See also "uname -n". Hostnames are traditionally all
lowercase, but if you want to change it feel free:
hostnamectl set-hostname Fedora
7:48 p.m.
My vote:
Fedora for the distro some want to rename Fedora Linux
Fedora Project for the all-encompassing collection of things Fedora
And now, back to more important things
6:38 a.m.
Ben Cotton wrote:
"Fedora" is the name of our project. Our general-purpose
Linux
distribution is "Fedora Linux". Let's refer to it that way in the OS
itself.
== Owner ==
* Name: [[User:mattdm| Matthew Miller]]
I am opposed to this change, for several reasons:
1. This kind of rebranding will not work out out there in the real world.
Just look at the KDE project for an example: Their main product (the desktop
environment) has been officially called "KDE Plasma", or in short, just
"Plasma", for years. Yet many people still call it just "KDE". (And we
do
not even have the luxury of telling people who think "Fedora Linux" is too
long to just call it "Linux", the way KDE uses "Plasma", because
"Linux" is
the upstream kernel's brand, not ours.)
2. Linux is just the kernel of the GNU/Linux operating system. Considering
that the by far most popular operating system using the Linux kernel is
nowadays a completely different operating system (Android), it has become
all the more important to make this essential distinction. "Fedora Linux"
sounds like a Fedora-optimized kernel build, not an operating system.
3. I think this changes defocuses the Fedora Project from its main product
(the GNU/Linux distribution) and will ultimately hurts its users (i.e., most
of us on this mailing list). It is going to turn "Fedora Linux" into just
one product next to EPEL (or "Fedora EPEL" as some people already call it,
and your proposal will make that more common), Silverblue (or "Fedora
Silverblue"), etc. This implies a focus shift that will divert resources
away from the GNU/Linux distribution we use towards:
* RHEL and derived distributions, through EPEL (and ELN etc.),
* technology experiments such as CoreOS or Silverblue,
etc.
I would rather see Fedora focus on its main product again.
Kevin Kofler
10:21 a.m.
On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 01:38:13PM +0100, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
3. I think this changes defocuses the Fedora Project from its main
product
(the GNU/Linux distribution) and will ultimately hurts its users (i.e., most
of us on this mailing list). It is going to turn "Fedora Linux" into just
one product next to EPEL (or "Fedora EPEL" as some people already call it,
and your proposal will make that more common), Silverblue (or "Fedora
Silverblue"), etc. This implies a focus shift that will divert resources
away from the GNU/Linux distribution we use towards:
* RHEL and derived distributions, through EPEL (and ELN etc.),
* technology experiments such as CoreOS or Silverblue,
etc.
I would rather see Fedora focus on its main product again.
I would put it this way: this change _helps recognize_ that Fedora is more
than its main product. This isn't new; EPEL has been part of Fedora since
the beginning, and CoreOS has been since it replaced Project Atomic.
However, I completely disagree on the impact of this in terms of resources
and impact on users. Making Fedora bigger and able to address more needs
isn't a zero-sum game. It brings in more resources that ultimately benefit
everything, absolutely including the primary distribution. This isn't
opinion, either — I absolutely know it to be true.
So, while I register that you diagree, I think the underlying facts actually
are that this point strongly _supports_ what I'm going for here.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
7:13 p.m.
On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 11:21:18 -0500, you wrote:
I would put it this way: this change _helps recognize_ that Fedora is
more
than its main product. This isn't new; EPEL has been part of Fedora since
the beginning, and CoreOS has been since it replaced Project Atomic.
You want this change to do that, it will fail to do that.
You aren't going to change not just the 15+ year habits of how people
refer to Fedora, but the even longer habits of how people call Linux
distributions.
Regardless of what their official titles are the public all refer to
them by their simple names - Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, Suse, Red Hat,
Centos, etc.
You can change the website, but you won't change how the public names
Fedora.
Which means it won't achieve your stated goal.
9:53 p.m.
On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 8:13 PM Gerald Henriksen <ghenriks(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 11:21:18 -0500, you wrote:
>I would put it this way: this change _helps recognize_ that Fedora is more
>than its main product. This isn't new; EPEL has been part of Fedora since
>the beginning, and CoreOS has been since it replaced Project Atomic.
You want this change to do that, it will fail to do that.
You aren't going to change not just the 15+ year habits of how people
refer to Fedora, but the even longer habits of how people call Linux
distributions.
Regardless of what their official titles are the public all refer to
them by their simple names - Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, Suse, Red Hat,
Centos, etc.
And why they spell it "RedHat". rather than "Red Hat Enterprise
Linux"
and "CentOS".
7:10 a.m.
Gerald Henriksen wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 11:21:18 -0500, you wrote:
>I would put it this way: this change _helps recognize_ that Fedora is more
>than its main product. This isn't new; EPEL has been part of Fedora since
>the beginning, and CoreOS has been since it replaced Project Atomic.
You want this change to do that, it will fail to do that.
You aren't going to change not just the 15+ year habits of how people
refer to Fedora, but the even longer habits of how people call Linux
distributions.
Regardless of what their official titles are the public all refer to
them by their simple names - Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, Suse, Red Hat,
Centos, etc.
In addition, "Fedora Linux" is no better than "Fedora" at
distinguishing it
from CoreOS, which is also "Linux" (actually, a GNU/Linux distribution like
Fedora), or EPEL, which sits on top of Red Hat Enterprise *Linux*. Adding
"Linux" to the name of the main product does nothing to differentiate it
from the other products.
Kevin Kofler
10 a.m.
On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 08:13:07PM -0500, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
You aren't going to change not just the 15+ year habits of how
people
refer to Fedora, but the even longer habits of how people call Linux
distributions.
Again, I'm not out to immediately change colloquial usage. Although I *do*
think that would be a positive, that's not in scope here. It's about how we
formally talk about things ourselves, and this change is just about one very
specific small way in which we do that.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
11:59 a.m.
On Sat, 13 Mar 2021 11:00:12 -0500, you wrote:
On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 08:13:07PM -0500, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
> You aren't going to change not just the 15+ year habits of how people
> refer to Fedora, but the even longer habits of how people call Linux
> distributions.
Again, I'm not out to immediately change colloquial usage. Although I *do*
think that would be a positive, that's not in scope here. It's about how we
formally talk about things ourselves, and this change is just about one very
specific small way in which we do that.
So, a community that historically hates typing extra stuff and thus
likes to remove vowels and occasionally other letters from commands,
who primarily "talks" via text communication, is suddenly going to add
the extra word Linux in their communications?
Yes, you will be able to force the web team to add the word Linux to
every mention of Fedora - but no one else is going to.
Which again brings us to what is the point then?
If you want to differentiate the OS from the project and other stuff,
then you are going to be better off renaming the other stuff than
attempting to force through a change to a name that the community and
outside world aren't going to follow.
9:20 a.m.
On 13/03/21 12:59 -0500, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
On Sat, 13 Mar 2021 11:00:12 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 08:13:07PM -0500, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
>> You aren't going to change not just the 15+ year habits of how people
>> refer to Fedora, but the even longer habits of how people call Linux
>> distributions.
>
>Again, I'm not out to immediately change colloquial usage. Although I *do*
>think that would be a positive, that's not in scope here. It's about how we
>formally talk about things ourselves, and this change is just about one very
>specific small way in which we do that.
So, a community that historically hates typing extra stuff and thus
likes to remove vowels and occasionally other letters from commands,
who primarily "talks" via text communication, is suddenly going to add
the extra word Linux in their communications?
Wouldn't our communications be *informal* and therefore not (in
Matthew's words) "how we formally talk about things ourselves"?
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