F37 proposal: Officially Support Raspberry Pi 4 (Self-Contained Change proposal)

[Ben Cotton]

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/RaspberryPi4

This document represents a proposed Change. As part of the Changes
process, proposals are publicly announced in order to receive
community feedback. This proposal will only be implemented if approved
by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.


== Summary ==
The work around Raspberry Pi 4 has been on going for a number of
years, but we've never officially supported it due to lack of
accelerated graphics and other key features. A few of us have led the
push to get the accelerated graphics work over the line upstream so it
now makes sense to enable this in Fedora and make support for the
Raspberry Pi 4 more official.

== Owner ==
* Name: [[User:pbrobinson| Peter Robinson]]
* Email: [mailto:[e-mail] pbrobinson(a)fedoraproject.org]


== Detailed Description ==

The support for the Raspberry Pi ecosystem has been an ongoing
evolution. The aim of this change is to support the Raspberry Pi 4
including the 4B, the 400 and the CM4 with IO board. Upstream now
supports accelerated graphics using the V3D GPU for both OpenGL-ES and
Vulkan. There's also enhancement to wired networking with support for
PTPv2 on the CM4/4B.

This work will polish the support for the Raspberry Pi 4 and include
some wider general improvements to the Raspberry Pis that we
officially support which include the RPi3 series and the Zero2W.

There are some minor caveats here:

* Support for WiFi on the Raspberry Pi 400 is out of scope as it's
dependent on the engagement (in this case the lack of) the vendor,
Synaptics, of the WiFi module shipped on this device providing generic
upstream firmware.

* The Raspberry Pi CM4 is an a module designed for IoT, Edge and
Embedded use cases. We will test and support the CM4 on the official
IO board, it should work on other devices that incorporate the CM4
assuming the vendor has their support in the upstream Raspberry Pi
firmware/overlays.

* Further device support around audio and other such pieces will be
reviewed as part of the process.

== Benefit to Fedora ==

The Raspberry Pi 4 is a widely available, reasonably prices device. It
has worked well in Fedora for some time in IoT and Server use cases,
and now with a fully accelerated graphics stack available it's a great
device from a price-per-performance perspective, and it has a wide
ecosystem, so fully supporting this in Fedora makes a compelling case.

== Scope ==
* Proposal owners:
** Ensure any patches required are accepted upstream
** Work with kernel, mesa and other maintainers to ensure everything
is as it should be
** Test

* Other developers:
** No direct impact, those already using the device in non-graphical
use cases should see no impact.

* Release engineering: [https://pagure.io/releng/issue/10872 #10872]

* Policies and guidelines: N/A (not a System Wide Change)

* Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)

== Upgrade/compatibility impact ==

There is no upgrade impact. Those running Fedora on the Raspberry Pi 4
previously will, depending on their use case, get an enhanced
experience.

== How To Test ==

* Buy a Raspberry Pi 4 (if you can)
* Test your favourite aarch64 Edition, Spin in particular the desktop
environments such as Workstation.

== User Experience ==

The experience should now include fully accelerated graphics.

== Dependencies ==

No external dependencies outside of specific work relating to the
specified hardware.

== Contingency Plan ==

* Contingency mechanism: None
* Contingency deadline: GA
* Blocks release? No.
* Blocks product? No.

== Documentation ==
Update the Raspberry Pi FAQ and other documentation including
migrating it to docs.fedoraproject.org

== Release Notes ==
Fedora  now supports the Raspberry Pi 4!


-- 
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Fedora Program Manager
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis

[Miro Hrončok]

On 05. 07. 22 23:16, Ben Cotton wrote:
>  The work around Raspberry Pi 4 has been on going for a number of
>  years, but we've never officially supported it due to lack of
>  accelerated graphics and other key features. A few of us have led the
>  push to get the accelerated graphics work over the line upstream so it
>  now makes sense to enable this in Fedora and make support for the
>  Raspberry Pi 4 more official. 
I don't understand what is actually proposed by this change proposal.

What does it mean to "make support for the Raspberry Pi 4 more official"?

Will Raspberry Pi 4 support be added as a Beta or Final release criterion?

Will Raspberry Pi 4 support be listed somewhere at getfedora.org?

-- 
Miro Hrončok
-- 
Phone: [phone]
IRC: mhroncok

[Peter Boy]

I very much appreciate the work to support the various SBC devices like Raspberry Pi and
workalikes. But I'm a little lost with this proposal. 

>  Am 05.07.2022 um 23:16 schrieb Ben Cotton
> <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt;:
>  The work around Raspberry Pi 4 has been on going for a number of
>  years, but we've never officially supported it due to lack of
>  accelerated graphics and other key features. A few of us have led the
>  push to get the accelerated graphics work over the line upstream so it
>  now makes sense to enable this in Fedora and make support for the
>  Raspberry Pi 4 more official. 
Why Raspberry Pi, and that as the only model from the large number of comparable devices?

Why not other devices, whose makers - as far as I understood the discussion - are far more
OSS friendly or e.g. explicitly name Fedora as a recommended operating system? 

I know, Raspberry Pi is very popular. But this looks to me a bit like Fedora, the
proverbial uninvited guest shouting "me too" from his corner.



>  This work will polish the support for the Raspberry Pi 4 and include
>  some wider general improvements to the Raspberry Pis that we
>  officially support which include the RPi3 series and the Zero2W. 
Again, why Raspberry Pi, and not e.g. Pine64 Rock64Pro or Radxa Rock Pi, just to name 2
capable devices? 

And what is the long tern plan? Do we want to evolve a list of supported hardware? Maybe
Lenovo next for x86-64 arch?


>  There are some minor caveats here:
>  
>  * Support for WiFi on the Raspberry Pi 400 is out of scope as it's
>  dependent on the engagement (in this case the lack of) the vendor,
>  Synaptics, of the WiFi module shipped on this device providing generic
>  upstream firmware.
>  
>  * The Raspberry Pi CM4 is an a module designed for IoT, Edge and
>  Embedded use cases. We will test and support the CM4 on the official
>  IO board, it should work on other devices that incorporate the CM4
>  assuming the vendor has their support in the upstream Raspberry Pi
>  firmware/overlays.
>  
>  * Further device support around audio and other such pieces will be
>  reviewed as part of the process. 
I think these statements are true in the same way for a great many other boards. Of
course, we can't work on everything, but again, why Raspberry of all things? 


>  
>  == Benefit to Fedora ==
>  
>  The Raspberry Pi 4 is a widely available, reasonably prices device. It 
Apart from the fact that it has been almost twice as expensive as comparable boards for
quite some time.

>  has worked well in Fedora for some time in IoT and Server use cases,
>  and now with a fully accelerated graphics stack available it's a great
>  device from a price-per-performance perspective, and it has a wide
>  ecosystem, so fully supporting this in Fedora makes a compelling case. 
Instead of focusing on one commercial manufacturer, I would like to see a - possibly short
- list of boards that we recommend for workstation alike and for server alike variants,
decided on the basis of edition's requirements. And for which we take concrete
measures to improve support in Fedora. (And I would really like to see the arm group more
visible and present in the Fedora universe). 


>  == Scope ==
>  * Proposal owners:
>  ** Ensure any patches required are accepted upstream
>  ** Work with kernel, mesa and other maintainers to ensure everything
>  is as it should be
>  ** Test 
I don't understand what exactly is supposed to change. Don’t you do that already? (and
in a very good and effective way)

And when we start to support a device or device category in this prominent way, then it
also needs a lot more documentation and visibility, e.g., a dedicated section on the
Fedora docs landing page. 


>  == How To Test ==
>  
>  * Buy a Raspberry Pi 4 (if you can) 
                             ^^ really nice





--
Peter Boy
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pboy
pboy(a)fedoraproject.org

Timezone: CET (UTC+1) / CEST (UTC+2)

Fedora Server Edition Working Group member
Fedora docs team contributor
Java developer and enthusiast

[Neal Gompa]

On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 2:49 AM Peter Boy <pboy(a)uni-bremen.de&gt; wrote:
>  I very much appreciate the work to support the various SBC devices like Raspberry Pi and
> workalikes. But I'm a little lost with this proposal.
>
>  > Am 05.07.2022 um 23:16 schrieb Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt;:
>  > The work around Raspberry Pi 4 has been on going for a number of
>  > years, but we've never officially supported it due to lack of
>  > accelerated graphics and other key features. A few of us have led the
>  > push to get the accelerated graphics work over the line upstream so it
>  > now makes sense to enable this in Fedora and make support for the
>  > Raspberry Pi 4 more official.
>
>  Why Raspberry Pi, and that as the only model from the large number of comparable
> devices?
>
>  Why not other devices, whose makers - as far as I understood the discussion - are far
> more OSS friendly or e.g. explicitly name Fedora as a recommended operating system?
>
>  I know, Raspberry Pi is very popular. But this looks to me a bit like Fedora, the
> proverbial uninvited guest shouting "me too" from his corner.
>  
Because one of the biggest complaints we get about Fedora ARM is that
it *doesn't* work. It was even featured in a recent podcast as a
severe problem with Fedora. The Raspberry Pi is the only mass produced
ARM device everyone can get their hands on *everywhere* (when in
stock). The device has penetrated the public consciousness in a way
nothing else has.

And make no mistake, *all* SBCs are not very good at being OSS
friendly, even *if* they mention Fedora by name. Vendors generally do
not care about mainline support, and it's usually up to *someone else*
to get it done. The Raspberry Pi has the benefit of visibility, so
people try very hard to get it done.



--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Ron Olson]

I have a Pi 4 that runs Fedora just fine; I use it to build Swift (takes almost 24 hours,
but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) so what doesn’t work? What podcast was this mentioned on?

On 6 Jul 2022, at 4:55, Neal Gompa wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 2:49 AM Peter Boy <pboy(a)uni-bremen.de&gt; wrote:
>>
>> I very much appreciate the work to support the various SBC devices like Raspberry
Pi and workalikes. But I'm a little lost with this proposal.
>>
>>> Am 05.07.2022 um 23:16 schrieb Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt;:
>>> The work around Raspberry Pi 4 has been on going for a number of
>>> years, but we've never officially supported it due to lack of
>>> accelerated graphics and other key features. A few of us have led the
>>> push to get the accelerated graphics work over the line upstream so it
>>> now makes sense to enable this in Fedora and make support for the
>>> Raspberry Pi 4 more official.
>>
>> Why Raspberry Pi, and that as the only model from the large number of comparable
devices?
>>
>> Why not other devices, whose makers - as far as I understood the discussion - are
far more OSS friendly or e.g. explicitly name Fedora as a recommended operating system?
>>
>> I know, Raspberry Pi is very popular. But this looks to me a bit like Fedora, the
proverbial uninvited guest shouting "me too" from his corner.
>>
>
> Because one of the biggest complaints we get about Fedora ARM is that
> it *doesn't* work. It was even featured in a recent podcast as a
> severe problem with Fedora. The Raspberry Pi is the only mass produced
> ARM device everyone can get their hands on *everywhere* (when in
> stock). The device has penetrated the public consciousness in a way
> nothing else has.
>
> And make no mistake, *all* SBCs are not very good at being OSS
> friendly, even *if* they mention Fedora by name. Vendors generally do
> not care about mainline support, and it's usually up to *someone else*
> to get it done. The Raspberry Pi has the benefit of visibility, so
> people try very hard to get it done.
>
>
>
> --
> 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
> _______________________________________________
> devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
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[Luna Jernberg]

Was in this weeks LAN: https://linuxactionnews.com/248

On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 3:37 PM Ron Olson <tachoknight(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  I have a Pi 4 that runs Fedora just fine; I use it to build Swift
> (takes
>  almost 24 hours, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) so what doesn’t work? What podcast was this
>  mentioned on?
>
>  On 6 Jul 2022, at 4:55, Neal Gompa wrote:
>
>  > On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 2:49 AM Peter Boy <pboy(a)uni-bremen.de&gt; wrote:
>  >>
>  >> I very much appreciate the work to support the various SBC devices like
>  Raspberry Pi and workalikes. But I'm a little lost with this proposal.
>  >>
>  >>> Am 05.07.2022 um 23:16 schrieb Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt;:
>  >>> The work around Raspberry Pi 4 has been on going for a number of
>  >>> years, but we've never officially supported it due to lack of
>  >>> accelerated graphics and other key features. A few of us have led the
>  >>> push to get the accelerated graphics work over the line upstream so it
>  >>> now makes sense to enable this in Fedora and make support for the
>  >>> Raspberry Pi 4 more official.
>  >>
>  >> Why Raspberry Pi, and that as the only model from the large number of
>  comparable devices?
>  >>
>  >> Why not other devices, whose makers - as far as I understood the
>  discussion - are far more OSS friendly or e.g. explicitly name Fedora as a
>  recommended operating system?
>  >>
>  >> I know, Raspberry Pi is very popular. But this looks to me a bit like
>  Fedora, the proverbial uninvited guest shouting "me too" from his corner.
>  >>
>  >
>  > Because one of the biggest complaints we get about Fedora ARM is that
>  > it *doesn't* work. It was even featured in a recent podcast as a
>  > severe problem with Fedora. The Raspberry Pi is the only mass produced
>  > ARM device everyone can get their hands on *everywhere* (when in
>  > stock). The device has penetrated the public consciousness in a way
>  > nothing else has.
>  >
>  > And make no mistake, *all* SBCs are not very good at being OSS
>  > friendly, even *if* they mention Fedora by name. Vendors generally do
>  > not care about mainline support, and it's usually up to *someone else*
>  > to get it done. The Raspberry Pi has the benefit of visibility, so
>  > people try very hard to get it done.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > --
>  > 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  > List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  > Do not reply to spam on the list, report it:
>  https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
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>

[Onuralp SEZER]

For example can you run wayland, or usage of fully supported GPU usage,
Rs-pi's Camera usage, SPI , I2C , GPIO usages (PWM,Analog and others)

For SBCs running just the OS itself won't be enough. It is a good start of
course but it also should support SBCs perks as well for (like access
hardware related drivers/libraries and create your own stuff)


On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 4:38 PM Ron Olson <tachoknight(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  I have a Pi 4 that runs Fedora just fine; I use it to build Swift
> (takes
>  almost 24 hours, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) so what doesn’t work? What podcast was this
>  mentioned on?
>
>  On 6 Jul 2022, at 4:55, Neal Gompa wrote:
>
>  > On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 2:49 AM Peter Boy <pboy(a)uni-bremen.de&gt; wrote:
>  >>
>  >> I very much appreciate the work to support the various SBC devices like
>  Raspberry Pi and workalikes. But I'm a little lost with this proposal.
>  >>
>  >>> Am 05.07.2022 um 23:16 schrieb Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt;:
>  >>> The work around Raspberry Pi 4 has been on going for a number of
>  >>> years, but we've never officially supported it due to lack of
>  >>> accelerated graphics and other key features. A few of us have led the
>  >>> push to get the accelerated graphics work over the line upstream so it
>  >>> now makes sense to enable this in Fedora and make support for the
>  >>> Raspberry Pi 4 more official.
>  >>
>  >> Why Raspberry Pi, and that as the only model from the large number of
>  comparable devices?
>  >>
>  >> Why not other devices, whose makers - as far as I understood the
>  discussion - are far more OSS friendly or e.g. explicitly name Fedora as a
>  recommended operating system?
>  >>
>  >> I know, Raspberry Pi is very popular. But this looks to me a bit like
>  Fedora, the proverbial uninvited guest shouting "me too" from his corner.
>  >>
>  >
>  > Because one of the biggest complaints we get about Fedora ARM is that
>  > it *doesn't* work. It was even featured in a recent podcast as a
>  > severe problem with Fedora. The Raspberry Pi is the only mass produced
>  > ARM device everyone can get their hands on *everywhere* (when in
>  > stock). The device has penetrated the public consciousness in a way
>  > nothing else has.
>  >
>  > And make no mistake, *all* SBCs are not very good at being OSS
>  > friendly, even *if* they mention Fedora by name. Vendors generally do
>  > not care about mainline support, and it's usually up to *someone else*
>  > to get it done. The Raspberry Pi has the benefit of visibility, so
>  > people try very hard to get it done.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > --
>  > 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  > List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  > Do not reply to spam on the list, report it:
>  https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
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>  

-- 





----------------------
Onuralp SEZER
Fedora Ambassadors <http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors> EMEA
<http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/EMEA> Member / Turkey
Fedora Translations Turkish Team Member
<https://fedora.transifex.net/projects/p/fedora/team/tr/>
Fedora Design Member <http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design>

[Alec Leamas]

Hi,

On 07/07/2022 17:36, Onuralp SEZER wrote:
>  
>  For example can you run wayland, or usage of fully supported GPU usage, 
>  Rs-pi's Camera usage, SPI , I2C , GPIO usages (PWM,Analog and others) 

Indeed. Also, the installation process has room for some improvements...

Cheers!
--alec

PS: Please folks, no top-posting:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines#If_You_Are_Replyin...

[Sally A. Haj]

Fist of all, thank you for the big amazing news for Fedora.
I have some questions about the new support of V3D in Fedora, is that support goes to
upstream mainline Linux kernel? If yes, which release of Kernel has that included? 
If the that supports goes to upstream kernel, does that mean all Linux Distros will get
benefits from that to support rpis?
Do RaspberryPi Foundation developers aware of this news? and will they involve in
supporting such things in upstream kernel instead of only their downstream?

Cheers, 
Sally

[Peter Robinson]

On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:05 PM Alec Leamas <leamas.alec(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Hi,
>
>  On 07/07/2022 17:36, Onuralp SEZER wrote:
>  >
>  > For example can you run wayland, or usage of fully supported GPU usage,
>  > Rs-pi's Camera usage, SPI , I2C , GPIO usages (PWM,Analog and others)
>
>
>  Indeed. Also, the installation process has room for some improvements... 
Please provide some constructive feedback on this rather than a drive
by comment that provides no context how you believe it could be
improved?

[Peter Robinson]

On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 11:23 PM Sally A. Haj via devel
<devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  Fist of all, thank you for the big amazing news for Fedora.
>  I have some questions about the new support of V3D in Fedora, is that support goes to
> upstream mainline Linux kernel? If yes, which release of Kernel has that included? 
It will be in 5.20

>  If the that supports goes to upstream kernel, does that mean all
> Linux Distros will get benefits from that to support rpis? 
Of course, we in Fedora arm don't do it any other way.

>  Do RaspberryPi Foundation developers aware of this news? and will
> they involve in supporting such things in upstream kernel instead of only their
> downstream? 
No idea if they're aware, no they weren't involved although someone
involved in their community is. You would have to ask them of their
intentions. Broadcom reviewed some of the patches.

Frankly though questions about other communities/distros is off topic.

[Peter Robinson]

On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 2:37 PM Ron Olson <tachoknight(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  I have a Pi 4 that runs Fedora just fine; I use it to build Swift (takes almost 24 hours,
> but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) so what doesn’t work? What podcast was this mentioned on? 
Core things have worked for some time, I know, I did the work, but
we've not officially *supported it*, there is quite a difference For
example no accelerated graphics  worked, a key thing for a lot of
people's use cases.

> On 6 Jul 2022, at 4:55, Neal Gompa wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 2:49 AM Peter Boy <pboy(a)uni-bremen.de&gt; wrote:
> >>
> >> I very much appreciate the work to support the various SBC devices like
Raspberry Pi and workalikes. But I'm a little lost with this proposal.
> >>
> >>> Am 05.07.2022 um 23:16 schrieb Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt;:
> >>> The work around Raspberry Pi 4 has been on going for a number of
> >>> years, but we've never officially supported it due to lack of
> >>> accelerated graphics and other key features. A few of us have led the
> >>> push to get the accelerated graphics work over the line upstream so it
> >>> now makes sense to enable this in Fedora and make support for the
> >>> Raspberry Pi 4 more official.
> >>
> >> Why Raspberry Pi, and that as the only model from the large number of
comparable devices?
> >>
> >> Why not other devices, whose makers - as far as I understood the discussion
- are far more OSS friendly or e.g. explicitly name Fedora as a recommended operating
system?
> >>
> >> I know, Raspberry Pi is very popular. But this looks to me a bit like
Fedora, the proverbial uninvited guest shouting "me too" from his corner.
> >>
> >
> > Because one of the biggest complaints we get about Fedora ARM is that
> > it *doesn't* work. It was even featured in a recent podcast as a
> > severe problem with Fedora. The Raspberry Pi is the only mass produced
> > ARM device everyone can get their hands on *everywhere* (when in
> > stock). The device has penetrated the public consciousness in a way
> > nothing else has.
> >
> > And make no mistake, *all* SBCs are not very good at being OSS
> > friendly, even *if* they mention Fedora by name. Vendors generally do
> > not care about mainline support, and it's usually up to *someone else*
> > to get it done. The Raspberry Pi has the benefit of visibility, so
> > people try very hard to get it done.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
> > _______________________________________________
> > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > Fedora Code of Conduct:
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > Do not reply to spam on the list, report it:
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
> _______________________________________________
> devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
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[Peter Robinson]

On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 7:49 AM Peter Boy <pboy(a)uni-bremen.de&gt; wrote:>
>  I very much appreciate the work to support the various SBC devices
> like Raspberry Pi and workalikes. But I'm a little lost with this proposal.
>
>  > Am 05.07.2022 um 23:16 schrieb Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt;:
>  > The work around Raspberry Pi 4 has been on going for a number of
>  > years, but we've never officially supported it due to lack of
>  > accelerated graphics and other key features. A few of us have led the
>  > push to get the accelerated graphics work over the line upstream so it
>  > now makes sense to enable this in Fedora and make support for the
>  > Raspberry Pi 4 more official.
>
>  Why Raspberry Pi, and that as the only model from the large number of comparable devices?
Because basically the RPi is a 10 times ratio over pretty much all the
other devices we support.

>  Why not other devices, whose makers - as far as I understood the
> discussion - are far more OSS friendly or e.g. explicitly name Fedora as a recommended
> operating system? 
See point above, but we DO support dozens of those devices you mention already.

>  I know, Raspberry Pi is very popular. But this looks to me a bit like
> Fedora, the proverbial uninvited guest shouting "me too" from his corner.
Not at all, for years we've not officially supported, even though some
features have long worked, it as things like accelerated graphics
didn't work, this is exactly like what we need back in around Fedora
26 for the RPi3, see the Fedora magazine article from the time.

>  > This work will polish the support for the Raspberry Pi 4 and
> include
>  > some wider general improvements to the Raspberry Pis that we
>  > officially support which include the RPi3 series and the Zero2W.
>
>  Again, why Raspberry Pi, and not e.g. Pine64 Rock64Pro or Radxa Rock Pi, just to name 2
> capable devices? 
We already fully support the RockPro64, and it's sibling the Pinebook
Pro, plus a lot of other rk3399 based devices. They are all pretty
awesome. I did a whole bunch of the upstream support for a bunch of
those devices.

>  And what is the long tern plan? Do we want to evolve a list of
> supported hardware? Maybe Lenovo next for x86-64 arch? 
We already support a lot of Lenovo HW, we've blocked releases when
some of their HW support is broken.

>  > There are some minor caveats here:
>  >
>  > * Support for WiFi on the Raspberry Pi 400 is out of scope as it's
>  > dependent on the engagement (in this case the lack of) the vendor,
>  > Synaptics, of the WiFi module shipped on this device providing generic
>  > upstream firmware.
>  >
>  > * The Raspberry Pi CM4 is an a module designed for IoT, Edge and
>  > Embedded use cases. We will test and support the CM4 on the official
>  > IO board, it should work on other devices that incorporate the CM4
>  > assuming the vendor has their support in the upstream Raspberry Pi
>  > firmware/overlays.
>  >
>  > * Further device support around audio and other such pieces will be
>  > reviewed as part of the process.
>
>  I think these statements are true in the same way for a great many other boards. Of
> course, we can't work on everything, but again, why Raspberry of all things? 
It's basically more popular that pretty much all of the other boards
combined. Also this is as much about the marketing to let people know
that tried to make the RPi4 work and went away because accelerated
graphics didn't work.

>
> >
> > == Benefit to Fedora ==
> >
> > The Raspberry Pi 4 is a widely available, reasonably prices device. It
>
> Apart from the fact that it has been almost twice as expensive as comparable boards
for quite some time.
>
> > has worked well in Fedora for some time in IoT and Server use cases,
> > and now with a fully accelerated graphics stack available it's a great
> > device from a price-per-performance perspective, and it has a wide
> > ecosystem, so fully supporting this in Fedora makes a compelling case.
>
> Instead of focusing on one commercial manufacturer, I would like to see a - possibly
short - list of boards that we recommend for workstation alike and for server alike
variants, decided on the basis of edition's requirements. And for which we take
concrete measures to improve support in Fedora. (And I would really like to see the arm
group more visible and present in the Fedora universe).
>
>
> > == Scope ==
> > * Proposal owners:
> > ** Ensure any patches required are accepted upstream
> > ** Work with kernel, mesa and other maintainers to ensure everything
> > is as it should be
> > ** Test
>
> I don't understand what exactly is supposed to change. Don’t you do that already?
(and in a very good and effective way)
>
> And when we start to support a device or device category in this prominent way, then
it also needs a lot more documentation and visibility, e.g., a dedicated section on the
Fedora docs landing page.
>
>
> > == How To Test ==
> >
> > * Buy a Raspberry Pi 4 (if you can)
>                              ^^ really nice
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Peter Boy
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pboy
> pboy(a)fedoraproject.org
>
> Timezone: CET (UTC+1) / CEST (UTC+2)
>
> Fedora Server Edition Working Group member
> Fedora docs team contributor
> Java developer and enthusiast
>
>
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[Steven A. Falco]

I like this proposal.  Is the intent to use the raw.xz image or the "iso + UEFI"
mechanism?

	Steve

[Allan]

On Tue, 5 Jul 2022 23:21:36 +0200
Miro Hrončok <mhroncok(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  On 05. 07. 22 23:16, Ben Cotton wrote:
>  > The work around Raspberry Pi 4 has been on going for a number of
>  > years, but we've never officially supported it due to lack of
>  > accelerated graphics and other key features. A few of us have led
>  > the push to get the accelerated graphics work over the line
>  > upstream so it now makes sense to enable this in Fedora and make
>  > support for the Raspberry Pi 4 more official.
>  
>  I don't understand what is actually proposed by this change proposal. 
I can't see any change here in any polices of Fedora too.

Please explain what really IS the CHANGE ??

  Allan.

[Naheem Zaffar]

On Sat, 9 Jul 2022, 03:37 Allan via devel, <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
wrote:

>  On Tue, 5 Jul 2022 23:21:36 +0200
>  Miro Hrončok <mhroncok(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>
>  > On 05. 07. 22 23:16, Ben Cotton wrote:
>  > > The work around Raspberry Pi 4 has been on going for a number of
>  > > years, but we've never officially supported it due to lack of
>  > > accelerated graphics and other key features. A few of us have led
>  > > the push to get the accelerated graphics work over the line
>  > > upstream so it now makes sense to enable this in Fedora and make
>  > > support for the Raspberry Pi 4 more official.
>  >
>  > I don't understand what is actually proposed by this change proposal.
>
>  I can't see any change here in any polices of Fedora too.
>
>  Please explain what really IS the CHANGE 

Fedora will be able to support being installed on and having accelerated
graphics on  raspberry pi 4.

It's a milestone, an announcement. Almost like a change notice announcing
that next Fedora will come with next gnome/kde/kernel/samba.

There may be (some times a lot of) work to integrate it and there may be
fedora contributors making it happen and doing upstream development, but it
doesnt require changes in policy or focus.

>

[Adam Williamson]

On Tue, 2022-07-05 at 17:16 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
>  == Scope ==
>  * Proposal owners:
>  ** Ensure any patches required are accepted upstream
>  ** Work with kernel, mesa and other maintainers to ensure everything
>  is as it should be
>  ** Test 
Also, 'add it to the list of officially-supported platforms'. Which
begs the question, 'which one?' I noticed last week there are (at
least) two:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM#Supported_Hardware_and_D...
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM/Supported_Platforms

can that be cut down to one and the winner updated?

Thanks!
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA
IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha
https://www.happyassassin.net

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Tue, Jul 05, 2022 at 05:16:00PM -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/RaspberryPi4 
It's nice to have official support for such a prominent device.

>  This document represents a proposed Change. As part of the Changes
>  process, proposals are publicly announced in order to receive
>  community feedback. This proposal will only be implemented if approved
>  by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.
>  
>  
>  == Summary ==
>  The work around Raspberry Pi 4 has been on going for a number of
>  years, but we've never officially supported it due to lack of
>  accelerated graphics and other key features. A few of us have led the
>  push to get the accelerated graphics work over the line upstream so it
>  now makes sense to enable this in Fedora and make support for the
>  Raspberry Pi 4 more official. 
I adjusted the Summary text on the wiki to just say directly that
official support will be provided. This should help with the questions
about the scope of the change.

https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Changes%2FRaspberryPi4&ty...

Zbyszek