Evolution is fairly much broken in FC5, and there's little movement even on the 'this mail crashes Evolution' bugs, let alone the "Evolution is totally unusable with IMAP" bugs.
What are we going to do about it? One option might be to move it to Extras in the hope that someone will actually start to look after it there. Or perhaps just drop it entirely? Any better ideas? Volunteers?
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 13:44 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
Evolution is fairly much broken in FC5
I'm curious why you are saying that. It's true, printing doesn't work for me [1] (which is a rather important function I might add), but other than that it's been OK here, both POP and IMAP.
[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=186653
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 13:44 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
Evolution is fairly much broken in FC5, and there's little movement even on the 'this mail crashes Evolution' bugs, let alone the "Evolution is totally unusable with IMAP" bugs.
What are we going to do about it? One option might be to move it to Extras in the hope that someone will actually start to look after it there. Or perhaps just drop it entirely? Any better ideas? Volunteers?
What will be a replacement for evolution ? Meaning something with a good address book, calendar and task management. Firebird, Sunbird aren't GNOME applications which gives them a different look and feel. Sylpheed only does mail, and isn't in core but in extra's. so what are the alternatives ?
Evolution might be technically broken, but it still is one of the more useful GNOME applications. And yes even though i like evolution, it is a slow memory hog that hangs a lot (i haven't seen any "this mail crashes evolution" though).
- Erwin
On 4/4/06, David Woodhouse dwmw2@infradead.org wrote:
Evolution is fairly much broken in FC5, and there's little movement even on the 'this mail crashes Evolution' bugs, let alone the "Evolution is totally unusable with IMAP" bugs.
What are we going to do about it? One option might be to move it to Extras in the hope that someone will actually start to look after it there. Or perhaps just drop it entirely? Any better ideas? Volunteers?
Difficult to do considering the depchains. If you want beagle in Core then evolution has to be in Core with the current packaging. beagle needs evolution-sharp which needs evolution.
-jef"though my candidate for wackiest depchain in Core right now is rhythmbox's dependancy on totem through the libtotem-plparser.so.1 library"spaleta
On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 08:53:19 -0400, Dimi Paun dimi@lattica.com escreveu:
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 13:44 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
Evolution is fairly much broken in FC5
I'm curious why you are saying that. It's true, printing doesn't work for me [1] (which is a rather important function I might add), but other than that it's been OK here, both POP and IMAP.
Quoting David's blog:
Bug #336076 (RH #183219): Evolution no longer uses STATUS to check for new mail -- instead it SELECTs every single folder in the system, downloads all headers and flags for every mail.
Add then bug #336074 (RH #167805) to the previous one and you get a pretty bad situation where you check all your old folders even when you dont want them and you do it using the slowest method possible (the above bug).
Those two can be a bit problematic if you have an IMAP server that is outside of your network and your link is a bit overloaded or you have a lot of e-mail stored on the server.
However, moving evolution to extras may not be a good idea IMHO, since evolution is the only tool (that I know of) that supports Exchange servers. That is certainly an important feature for many people in corporate environments (or people who use FC at home and need evolution to use the work e-mail). I'm not a big fan of evolution (specially because of the way it eats away the memory), but in my case, I have to use it because of that evil exchange server...
-- Pedro Macedo
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 13:44 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
Evolution is fairly much broken in FC5, and there's little movement even on the 'this mail crashes Evolution' bugs, let alone the "Evolution is totally unusable with IMAP" bugs.
What are we going to do about it? One option might be to move it to Extras in the hope that someone will actually start to look after it there. Or perhaps just drop it entirely? Any better ideas? Volunteers?
I don't think you can move Evolution to FE at the moment because, as others have pointed out, there is (are) no readily available replacements that have similar functionality (email/calendar/tasks/memos/contacts).
This throws up a more interesting question: if Red Hat are not going to assign an engineer to maintain Evolution, then how do non-Red Hat people get involved in maintaining packages in FC?
Keith.
PS. Evolution on FC5 works pretty well for me with an Exchange server at work. The only problem I repeatedly see is passing blank emails through filters causes a crash.
Keith Sharp wrote:
This throws up a more interesting question: if Red Hat are not going to assign an engineer to maintain Evolution, then how do non-Red Hat people get involved in maintaining packages in FC?
Other than talking about things here and filing bug/enhancements to bugzilla.redhat.com? AFAIK, that's about it, at the moment.
-- Rex
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 08:53 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
Keith Sharp wrote:
This throws up a more interesting question: if Red Hat are not going to assign an engineer to maintain Evolution, then how do non-Red Hat people get involved in maintaining packages in FC?
Other than talking about things here and filing bug/enhancements to bugzilla.redhat.com? AFAIK, that's about it, at the moment.
Well patches are surely welcome and I don't think they will be rejected or forgotten if they fix real crashers or similar critical bugs.
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 10:15 -0300, Pedro Fernandes Macedo wrote:
Add then bug #336074 (RH #167805) to the previous one and you get a pretty bad situation where you check all your old folders even when you dont want them and you do it using the slowest method possible (the above bug).
Those two can be a bit problematic if you have an IMAP server that is outside of your network and your link is a bit overloaded or you have a lot of e-mail stored on the server.
To put real numbers to 'a bit problematic'...
Even after I fixed #336074 (RH #167805 -- filed September 2005, still in NEW state), it took two hours to start up for the first time when it was working over my DSL line, and it even took 23 minutes to start up when it was here in my house and connected via GigE to the IMAP server.
It fetches every header for every mail in every active folder -- and without my patch for #336074 that would have been every folder in the system, not just the active folders. Whenever it reconnects, it updates its cache by downloading all new headers from the server. The cache in my ~/.evolution directory is about half a gigabyte, most of which is unnecessary.
Each time it checks for new mail, it fetches the flags for every mail in every (active) folder -- instead of just issuing a single STATUS command for each (active) folder.
For an idea of its runtime performance, see the graph from by my ISP: http://david.woodhou.se/what-evo-did-to-my-bandwidth-graph-2.png
You can see when it was started up (remotely) at about 7:30 on Saturday night, and stopped just after 10:15 on Sunday morning. The periodic mail check is set to something like 12 minute intervals -- 5 checks an hour.
You can see my _original_ remote startup at about 7pm on the first day of http://david.woodhou.se/what-evo-did-to-my-bandwidth-graph-elided.png along with the result on the latency for the next few days till it was killed (with a brief respite on the second day because I'd killed it to play with a potential fix). Again, that's with #336074 fixed so it's doing about 12 times less work than the 'stock' evolution packages would be doing.
The ISP didn't have the shiny new graphs in place back then, so it didn't show upload and download bandwidth -- but it's still fairly clear.
Then there's the one which makes it unusable for people who use wu-imapd and check 'show only subscribed folders' -- that's BZ #181805.
These are probably the minimal fixes we need to turn it from an unusable pile of crap into just a suboptimal pile of crap: http://david.woodhou.se/what-evo-did-to-my-bandwidth-graph-2.png
Gr. No, that's https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=145314 in action. Let's try that again without trying to just select-and-middle-click like we can in any non-broken X application...
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=181805 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=183219 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=167805 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=161397
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 14:34 +0100, Keith Sharp wrote:
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 13:44 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
I don't think you can move Evolution to FE at the moment because, as others have pointed out, there is (are) no readily available replacements that have similar functionality (email/calendar/tasks/memos/contacts).
This throws up a more interesting question: if Red Hat are not going to assign an engineer to maintain Evolution, then how do non-Red Hat people get involved in maintaining packages in FC?
A more interesting question is; what are commercial users of RHEL and Suse supposed to use as email client? AFAIK both have evolution as default email client (hmmm suse maybe kmail when since they seem kde focused). So if it is really as broken as it is (extreme memory usage, random hangs, slow, poor imap support, etc.) shouldn't Redhat and Novell be fixing those things as quick as they can ? I mean the excuse to not use Linux was always "no office", i hope not that it will turn into a "no email client".
- Erwin
On Tuesday 04 April 2006 08:15, Pedro Fernandes Macedo wrote:
However, moving evolution to extras may not be a good idea IMHO, since evolution is the only tool (that I know of) that supports Exchange servers. That is certainly an important feature for many people in corporate environments (or people who use FC at home and need evolution to use the work e-mail). I'm not a big fan of evolution (specially because of the way it eats away the memory), but in my case, I have to use it because of that evil exchange server...
kmail supports exchange. Ive never tested it but there is uspport there for it. if you use kontact you get the exact same functionality of evolution.
Tomas Mraz wrote:
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 08:53 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
Keith Sharp wrote:
This throws up a more interesting question: if Red Hat are not going to assign an engineer to maintain Evolution, then how do non-Red Hat people get involved in maintaining packages in FC?
Other than talking about things here and filing bug/enhancements to bugzilla.redhat.com? AFAIK, that's about it, at the moment.
Well patches are surely welcome and I don't think they will be rejected or forgotten if they fix real crashers or similar critical bugs.
Of course, that's where bugzilla.redhat.com comes in... (-:
-- Rex
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 09:19 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
Tomas Mraz wrote:
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 08:53 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
Keith Sharp wrote:
This throws up a more interesting question: if Red Hat are not going to assign an engineer to maintain Evolution, then how do non-Red Hat people get involved in maintaining packages in FC?
Other than talking about things here and filing bug/enhancements to bugzilla.redhat.com? AFAIK, that's about it, at the moment.
Well patches are surely welcome and I don't think they will be rejected or forgotten if they fix real crashers or similar critical bugs.
Of course, that's where bugzilla.redhat.com comes in... (-:
Yes, I've just wanted to add to your previous mail that simple bug report helps but even better if it's accompanied with a proper patch. :)
Hi all,
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
-jef"though my candidate for wackiest depchain in Core right now is rhythmbox's dependancy on totem through the libtotem-plparser.so.1 library"spaleta
Yes it seems there are many interesting dep chains like this some solvable some not the above one would be solvabel by putting the .so in a seperate -libs package.
Maybe we should have a wiki page where wacked dep chains can be posted when encountered and then if some one feels like doing something about this he has a place to look them up, or should we just bugzilla them all? Jeff did you bugzilla your example? If not shouldn't you?
Regards,
Hans
Dnia 04-04-2006, wto o godzinie 08:53 -0400, Dimi Paun napisał(a):
Evolution is fairly much broken in FC5
I'm curious why you are saying that.
Noone mentioned it, so look here: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/weekly-bug-summary.html and tell me "which GNOME application is the most buggy?" Evo has most open bugs, is the fastest new-bug-gainer, and has the most duplicates for things everyone knows about, but noone fixes. After trying to propose a patch in GNOME's bugzilla (not for Evo, and coincidentally, in bug you reported :)), I now can see why :)
Lam
On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 13:44:37 +0100, David Woodhouse dwmw2@infradead.org wrote:
Evolution is fairly much broken in FC5, and there's little movement even on the 'this mail crashes Evolution' bugs, let alone the "Evolution is totally unusable with IMAP" bugs.
What are we going to do about it? One option might be to move it to Extras in the hope that someone will actually start to look after it there. Or perhaps just drop it entirely? Any better ideas? Volunteers?
Remember why we went with Evolution in the first place. It was Havoc's idea about the Open Source Architecture, and selecting one application instead of a gazillion of different ones. Implicit in this choice was the promise to fix it. Maybe explicit even, I do not remember.
Now the upstream stewardhip, maintainership, or whatever seems to be collapsing and those frustrated with Evo try to jump ship, but to where? It sure as hell ain't Sylpheed.
Maybe primates just need a good fork in the liver and Evo gets viable again. I hope at least.
Anyway, talk to Havoc first, ask him if he planned for this eventuality.
Funnily, in the same time period, we very nearly selected some obscure web browser instead of Firefox. It may be instructive to compare the cases with the Evo.
-- Pete
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 09:26 -0700, Pete Zaitcev wrote:
Funnily, in the same time period, we very nearly selected some obscure web browser instead of Firefox. It may be instructive to compare the cases with the Evo.
Are you trying to insinuate that firefox is any less broken than evo ?
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 09:26 -0700, Pete Zaitcev wrote:
Now the upstream stewardhip, maintainership, or whatever seems to be collapsing and those frustrated with Evo try to jump ship, but to where? It sure as hell ain't Sylpheed.
Maybe Thunderbird... but it doesn't do non-email stuff, and even the email part of it has its own problems -- http://mbligh.org/linuxdocs/Email/Clients/Thunderbird
Maybe kontact -- although as discussed elsewhere I had to give up on switching to kmail because of http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26986 I suppose we could fix that though.
Maybe primates just need a good fork in the liver and Evo gets viable again. I hope at least.
The worst-offending primates _do_ seem to have got a fork in the liver already -- so maybe Novell's maintainership of Evolution is picking up. Certainly the folks in India seems a lot saner and I wouldn't expect the kind of responses I got to simple bug-fixes like this one any more... http://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-patches/2005-March/msg00435.html
The responses: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-patches/2005-March/msg00458.html http://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-patches/2005-March/msg00461.html
Anyway, talk to Havoc first, ask him if he planned for this eventuality.
Funnily, in the same time period, we very nearly selected some obscure web browser instead of Firefox. It may be instructive to compare the cases with the Evo.
We did the right thing when we shipped firefox, and we have mozilla developers in-house.
We _may_ have done the right thing when we shipped Evolution, but we dropped the ball because we've never really had an in-house maintainer whose primary function is to keep Evolution on track. It's always just been packaged in someone's spare time, I believe.
Allegedly we're supposed to be trying to hire an Evolution maintainer, although that req has been open for a while now: http://redhat.hrdpt.com/cgi-bin/a/highlightjob.cgi?jobid=961
That might be the way out of the fix we're in now -- but it can't happen fast enough. We already have people who've updated systems to FC5 and are regretting it because their users are extremely unhappy. What are we going to do about that? There were 'FC5Blocker' bugs filed against Evolution long before FC5 was released... and they're still not fixed.
On the whole, I've been very unimpressed with FC5. Perhaps that's just because I haven't really been using it in anger on my real machines, because the Evolution bugs prevented me from doing so -- so I didn't get a chance to find and fix all the other things which break for _me_ before the final release, as I would normally have done before a release.
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 18:05 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
The worst-offending primates _do_ seem to have got a fork in the liver already -- so maybe Novell's maintainership of Evolution is picking up. Certainly the folks in India seems a lot saner and I wouldn't expect the kind of responses I got to simple bug-fixes like this one any more...
Yes. It is beginning to get better.
Allegedly we're supposed to be trying to hire an Evolution maintainer, although that req has been open for a while now: http://redhat.hrdpt.com/cgi-bin/a/highlightjob.cgi?jobid=961
There is progress on this now.
Rahul
On Tuesday, 04 April 2006 at 15:03, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 4/4/06, David Woodhouse dwmw2@infradead.org wrote:
Evolution is fairly much broken in FC5, and there's little movement even on the 'this mail crashes Evolution' bugs, let alone the "Evolution is totally unusable with IMAP" bugs.
What are we going to do about it? One option might be to move it to Extras in the hope that someone will actually start to look after it there. Or perhaps just drop it entirely? Any better ideas? Volunteers?
Difficult to do considering the depchains. If you want beagle in Core then evolution has to be in Core with the current packaging. beagle needs evolution-sharp which needs evolution.
-jef"though my candidate for wackiest depchain in Core right now is rhythmbox's dependancy on totem through the libtotem-plparser.so.1 library"spaleta
Here's another wacky one:
mail-notification depends on evolution, gnome-pilot, NetworkManager and named.
Regards, R.
On 4/4/06, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski dominik@greysector.net wrote:
On Tuesday, 04 April 2006 at 15:03, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
Difficult to do considering the depchains. If you want beagle in Core then evolution has to be in Core with the current packaging. beagle needs evolution-sharp which needs evolution.
-jef"though my candidate for wackiest depchain in Core right now is rhythmbox's dependancy on totem through the libtotem-plparser.so.1 library"spaleta
Here's another wacky one:
mail-notification depends on evolution, gnome-pilot, NetworkManager and named.
The evolution dependency on gnome-pilot (and pilot-link) isn't necessary. The evolution pilot conduits are easily separated into a subpackage.
I put in a bug (178155) a while ago with a patch split the conduits into an evolution-pilot subpackage.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=178155,
- Ian
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 11:32 -0700, Ian Burrell wrote:
I put in a bug (178155) a while ago with a patch split the conduits into an evolution-pilot subpackage.
While thats nice, it doesn't help in this regard. It is a subpackage of the main evolution source rpm. That means that the source rpm cannot go outside the Fedora build system. Not until we made modifications to how packages are brought in and how we look at the distribution.
As it stands, it is not feasible to move Evolution outside of Core. This may change in the (near?) future, but that is left to be seen.
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 20:21 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote:
mail-notification depends on evolution, gnome-pilot, NetworkManager and named.
Evolution's dependency on SpamAssassin is bogus too -- doing that kind of filtering in the MUA as an _option_ is all very well, but it's very suboptimal to do it that way and there's no excuse for dragging SA into the workstation install where it doesn't belong.
Jesse Keating wrote:
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 11:32 -0700, Ian Burrell wrote:
I put in a bug (178155) a while ago with a patch split the conduits into an evolution-pilot subpackage.
While thats nice, it doesn't help in this regard. It is a subpackage of the main evolution source rpm. That means that the source rpm cannot go outside the Fedora build system. Not until we made modifications to how packages are brought in and how we look at the distribution.
As it stands, it is not feasible to move Evolution outside of Core. This may change in the (near?) future, but that is left to be seen.
Agreed but that is still no excuse for the sometimes somewhat bizarre dep chains. If a package functions fine (although feature limited) without something and putting this something in launches a (long) extra depchain and the part which requires this can be seperated into a subpackage it should be a in subpackage.
Regards,
Hans
Dnia 04-04-2006, wto o godzinie 14:47 -0400, Jesse Keating napisał(a):
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 11:32 -0700, Ian Burrell wrote:
I put in a bug (178155) a while ago with a patch split the conduits into an evolution-pilot subpackage.
While thats nice, it doesn't help in this regard. It is a subpackage of the main evolution source rpm. That means that the source rpm cannot go outside the Fedora build system. Not until we made modifications to how packages are brought in and how we look at the distribution.
Patch for current evolution.spec for doing this in attachment.
Attached patch also fixes few other (sometimes very stupid) things in this spec: - remove "Require: libinotify" rule (remember: not versioned libraries dependencies are *allways* autogenerated by rpm on build stage), - replace run sequence autotools by single "autoreconf -f" in %build, - use --disable-schemas-install in configure parameters instead "excercises" in %install, - remove INSTALL from %doc (God .. now we have in system resources few hundrets minus one the same automake INSTALL document), - replace all --with-<foo>=no and --enable-<bar>=no by better redable --without-<foo> and --disable-<bar>, - use --dissable-static instead waste time in %build for generate static libraries only for prune them in %install, - use single command (rm) for remove all .la files (all without using additionaly command like xargs and find), - cleanups: s,$RPM_BUILD_ROOT/%{_,$RPM_BUILD_ROOT%{_,
kloczek
On 4/4/06, David Woodhouse dwmw2@infradead.org wrote:
Evolution is fairly much broken in FC5, and there's little movement even on the 'this mail crashes Evolution' bugs, let alone the "Evolution is totally unusable with IMAP" bugs.
What are we going to do about it? One option might be to move it to Extras in the hope that someone will actually start to look after it there. Or perhaps just drop it entirely? Any better ideas? Volunteers?
I ditched Evolution during the 2.0 series of cruft.. and have been doing nothing but converting people to Thunderbird who are with FC5. As far as I can tell Evolution-2.6 is a pain in the butt with more pain than gain.
If beagle is dependant on it, then maybe it would be better if someone figured out a replacement on beagle than keeping evolution. beagle is also on our list of removal due to its "I eat batteries" on laptops (the major users of Fedora it seems here in our environment).
-- dwmw2
-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
-- Stephen J Smoogen. CSIRT/Linux System Administrator
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 08:53 -0400, Dimi Paun wrote:
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 13:44 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
Evolution is fairly much broken in FC5
I'm curious why you are saying that. It's true, printing doesn't work for me [1] (which is a rather important function I might add), but other than that it's been OK here, both POP and IMAP.
[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=186653
I'm going to jump on the WORKSFORME bandwagon. I've been using Evolution for a while. I use it with my own imap server. (courier) Other than the occasional hang, I've never had a problem, and I've never understood what everyone is complaining about. I also use the contacts and calendar, and I like the way it integrates with the GNOME panel clock.
On Tuesday 04 April 2006 11:05am, David Woodhouse wrote:
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 09:26 -0700, Pete Zaitcev wrote:
Now the upstream stewardhip, maintainership, or whatever seems to be collapsing and those frustrated with Evo try to jump ship, but to where? It sure as hell ain't Sylpheed.
Maybe Thunderbird... but it doesn't do non-email stuff, and even the email part of it has its own problems -- http://mbligh.org/linuxdocs/Email/Clients/Thunderbird
Maybe kontact -- although as discussed elsewhere I had to give up on switching to kmail because of http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26986 I suppose we could fix that though.
That's a pretty trivial "bug". It's just an RFE, but I agree; it would be fairly simple to implement. However, I think it's fairly harsh of you to give up on KMail for this. I've used KMail (and now Kontact which embeds KMail) for years and this has never been an issue for me. If I delete a message, it goes in the trashcan. If I purge the trashcan, it's gone; if not, I can get it back.
Then again, I almost never delete email (which reminds me that it's time to archive 2004's email :) ).
I used KMail for years, then I switched to Evolution with 1.4 and went to Kontact about 1.5 years ago (after Evolution 2.0). During the past year and a half, many of my co-workers and friends have used either Evolution or Kontact. I would have to say, based on the comments and experiences of those people, that those using Kontact have had far fewer problems than those using Evolution.
That said, I think Evolution is an excellent program, for the most part. It's just lost the love of developers and maintainers. I don't know what's happening over at Novel with Miguel & friends working on Evolution, but regardless of whatever is going on there, Red Hat, IMHO, needs to have an Evo developer/maintainer on staff. It is far too important a component to have let it get this way.
Regardless, I'll be sticking with Kontact for a while. But, I'll try out Evo again from time to time. [snip]
On Tuesday 04 April 2006 01:51pm, Tomasz Kłoczko wrote:
Dnia 04-04-2006, wto o godzinie 21:41 +0200, Tomasz Kłoczko napisał(a): [..]
Patch for current evolution.spec for doing this in attachment.
Sorry but previouse patch was with incorect Group in pilot subpackage and small bug in %build.
You should attach this patch to a bugzilla entry. It'll just get lost in here.
I don't know if there is already a "bug" to which it would make to attach such a patch. If not, please, create one. Either way, let the list know the bug number you've attached it to.
At that point, it's the responsibility of the package maintainer. But as I understand it, there isn't one. Question for those in charge around here, who should pick up this ball then?
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 14:07 -0600, Lamont R. Peterson wrote:
At that point, it's the responsibility of the package maintainer. But as I understand it, there isn't one. Question for those in charge around here, who should pick up this ball then?
Someone who is getting hired.
http://redhat.hrdpt.com/cgi-bin/a/highlightjob.cgi?jobid=961
Rahul
Dnia 04-04-2006, wto o godzinie 14:07 -0600, Lamont R. Peterson napisał(a):
On Tuesday 04 April 2006 01:51pm, Tomasz Kłoczko wrote:
Dnia 04-04-2006, wto o godzinie 21:41 +0200, Tomasz Kłoczko napisał(a): [..]
Patch for current evolution.spec for doing this in attachment.
Sorry but previouse patch was with incorect Group in pilot subpackage and small bug in %build.
You should attach this patch to a bugzilla entry. It'll just get lost in here.
Done. I'm include this patch here because it solves some (again: very stupid) things which also sits in *many* other Fedora packages .. for review by other Fedora developers. Each bugzilla entry is rewieved by only limited numbers developer eye balls.
kloczek
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 14:02 -0600, Lamont R. Peterson wrote:
That's a pretty trivial "bug". It's just an RFE, but I agree; it would be fairly simple to implement. However, I think it's fairly harsh of you to give up on KMail for this. I've used KMail (and now Kontact which embeds KMail) for years and this has never been an issue for me. If I delete a message, it goes in the trashcan. If I purge the trashcan, it's gone; if not, I can get it back.
Then again, I almost never delete email
I delete a lot of it :)
I appreciate that it's subjective -- but I really can't deal with the mailbox index jumping around like that as I delete messages. It just completely screws up the way my eye tracks down the index. Obviously, changing mailer is hard, and there are some things which you just take a while to get used to... but that isn't one of them.
Stephen J. Smoogen said:
I ditched Evolution during the 2.0 series of cruft.. and have been doing nothing but converting people to Thunderbird who are with FC5. As far as I can tell Evolution-2.6 is a pain in the butt with more pain than gain.
Agreed. Pretty much the only reason I use Evolution currently is that it is the only mail client I've tried which actually obeys my font settings. Hopefully the recent Pango-ification of Thunderbird will fix this in FC5...
David Woodhouse dwmw2@infradead.org writes:
Evolution is fairly much broken in FC5, and there's little movement even on the 'this mail crashes Evolution' bugs, let alone the "Evolution is totally unusable with IMAP" bugs.
What are we going to do about it? One option might be to move it to Extras in the hope that someone will actually start to look after it there. Or perhaps just drop it entirely? Any better ideas? Volunteers?
-- dwmw2
I don't use evolution mainly because of its long startup time. I hate waiting for apps to start up.
I think it would generally be a good idea keep it installed. I expect more and more users are coming to Linux. And evolution is important for them since most of them are trained by outlook.
Regards,
On Tuesday 04 April 2006 04:02pm, Peter Gordon wrote:
Stephen J. Smoogen said:
I ditched Evolution during the 2.0 series of cruft.. and have been doing nothing but converting people to Thunderbird who are with FC5. As far as I can tell Evolution-2.6 is a pain in the butt with more pain than gain.
Agreed. Pretty much the only reason I use Evolution currently is that it is the only mail client I've tried which actually obeys my font settings. Hopefully the recent Pango-ification of Thunderbird will fix this in FC5...
Really? Well, I use Kontact and it always respect my font choices. I guess you have not tried it. :)
Lamont R. Peterson said:
Agreed. Pretty much the only reason I use Evolution currently is that it is the only mail client I've tried which actually obeys my font settings. Hopefully the recent Pango-ification of Thunderbird will fix this in FC5...
Really? Well, I use Kontact and it always respect my font choices. I guess you have not tried it. :)
Yeah but Kontact is a Qt/KDE application... ;)
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 15:22 -0700, Peter Gordon wrote:
Really? Well, I use Kontact and it always respect my font choices. I guess you have not tried it. :)
Yeah but Kontact is a Qt/KDE application... ;)
That just means it's not _surprising_ when it gives you options which allow you to make it behave how you want it to, rather than forcing the user to conform to _its_ model.
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 23:40 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 15:22 -0700, Peter Gordon wrote:
Really? Well, I use Kontact and it always respect my font choices. I guess you have not tried it. :)
Yeah but Kontact is a Qt/KDE application... ;)
That just means it's not _surprising_ when it gives you options which allow you to make it behave how you want it to, rather than forcing the user to conform to _its_ model.
KDE apps, including Kontact, force me to use the KDE look and feel, and pretty much ignore the GNOME settings I am used to. So KDE is just as well forcing _its_ model on you, just a different model.
Of course a KDE vs. GNOME flamewar is not going to fix the problem that evolution is a good application but just needs some fixing by someone with a lot of time :-)
- Erwin
On 4/4/06, Hans de Goede j.w.r.degoede@hhs.nl wrote:
Agreed but that is still no excuse for the sometimes somewhat bizarre dep chains. If a package functions fine (although feature limited) without something and putting this something in launches a (long) extra depchain and the part which requires this can be seperated into a subpackage it should be a in subpackage.
Your logic also hits on another packaging policy limitation in Core which doesn't strongly delineate between hard requirements and optional functionality which depends on an additional package to be installed to be functional. The evolution "requirement" on spamassasin is an example of how the line between hard requirements and optional functionality is blurred delibrately by the package maintainer to ensure that evolution installs with the spamassasin support enabled without additional effort by unsuspecting users. Making the effort to subpackage functionality further only makes sense if the application package maintainers are going to stop treating the runtime optional functionality as hard requirements in the packaging spec.
-jef
Peter Gordon wrote:
Agreed. Pretty much the only reason I use Evolution currently is that it is the only mail client I've tried which actually obeys my font settings. Hopefully the recent Pango-ification of Thunderbird will fix this in FC5...
Huzzah. I've got the official build from Mozilla.com, and some configuring; and Thunderbird *still* doesn't fully obey the settings. However, the fonts are actually nice though.
/me goes off to transfer mail from Evolution...
David Woodhouse dwmw2@infradead.org writes:
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 14:02 -0600, Lamont R. Peterson wrote:
That's a pretty trivial "bug". It's just an RFE, but I agree; it would be fairly simple to implement. However, I think it's fairly harsh of you to give up on KMail for this. I've used KMail (and now Kontact which embeds KMail) for years and this has never been an issue for me. If I delete a message, it goes in the trashcan. If I purge the trashcan, it's gone; if not, I can get it back.
Then again, I almost never delete email
I delete a lot of it :)
I appreciate that it's subjective -- but I really can't deal with the mailbox index jumping around like that as I delete messages. It just completely screws up the way my eye tracks down the index. Obviously, changing mailer is hard, and there are some things which you just take a while to get used to... but that isn't one of them.
Marking all messages you want to delete with Control+Click first and deleting them all with Delete isn't an option?
Erwin Rol wrote:
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 23:40 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 15:22 -0700, Peter Gordon wrote:
Really? Well, I use Kontact and it always respect my font choices. I guess you have not tried it. :)
Yeah but Kontact is a Qt/KDE application... ;)
That just means it's not _surprising_ when it gives you options which allow you to make it behave how you want it to, rather than forcing the user to conform to _its_ model.
KDE apps, including Kontact, force me to use the KDE look and feel, and pretty much ignore the GNOME settings I am used to. So KDE is just as well forcing _its_ model on you, just a different model.
Of course a KDE vs. GNOME flamewar is not going to fix the problem that evolution is a good application but just needs some fixing by someone with a lot of time :-)
- Erwin
I didn't knew that GNOME and KDE _should_ integrate ;-) so I don't get your point about KDE being forcing. Anyway I belive that David tried to point out that KDE lets *you* configure it fully as you want, while GNOME limits you because of all usability stuff (HIG and so on).
Anyway after I have tried Evolution, Kontact and Thunderbird and remained with Thunderbird.
Bogdan
On Wed, 2006-04-05 at 10:48 +0300, Bogdan Mustiata wrote:
I didn't knew that GNOME and KDE _should_ integrate ;-)
They shouldn't, hence i don't want kmail but a GNOME mailer.
so I don't get your point about KDE being forcing. Anyway I belive that David tried to point out that KDE lets *you* configure it fully as you want, while GNOME limits you because of all usability stuff (HIG and so on).
What if I don't want to configure every little thing, or am not smart enough to do so ? And one configuration option that i could not find in KDE was the "follow GNOME HIG and theme" one ;-)
Anyway after I have tried Evolution, Kontact and Thunderbird and remained with Thunderbird.
Thunderbird isn't bad, it just doesn't do calendar and task management.
- Erwin
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
Your logic also hits on another packaging policy limitation in Core which doesn't strongly delineate between hard requirements and optional functionality which depends on an additional package to be installed to be functional.
AFAIK, the latest (or soon to be included in rawhide?) version of rpm will support new tags: Requires(hint): and/or Requires(missingok): to allow for such soft requirements.
-- Rex
Erwin Rol wrote:
What if I don't want to configure every little thing, or am not smart enough to do so ? And one configuration option that i could not find in KDE was the "follow GNOME HIG and theme" one ;-)
There is gtk-qt-engine in Fedora Extras, but, unfortunately, it's a bit buggy wrt recent gtk2 releases.
-- Rex
On Wed, 2006-04-05 at 07:45 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
Erwin Rol wrote:
What if I don't want to configure every little thing, or am not smart enough to do so ? And one configuration option that i could not find in KDE was the "follow GNOME HIG and theme" one ;-)
There is gtk-qt-engine in Fedora Extras, but, unfortunately, it's a bit buggy wrt recent gtk2 releases.
Doesn't the gtk-qt engine create a GTK theme that uses a Qt theme ? With other words GNOME applications look like Qt applications. For a gnome desktop it would be better if there was a Qt theme engine that uses GTK to draw Qt/KDE applications.
Also since Qt is GPL, doesn't the gtk-qt-engine introduce some licensing problems, cause all GTK applications will than be "linked" with Qt, and so they all should be GPL (which isn't needed with GTK)
And things like cut and paste, URL default aps, etc. still will be different. The only two KDE apps i use are kdevelop and k3d and I hate the small differences, I would not suggest mixing KDE and GNOME, they are just to different.
- Erwin
Rex Dieter wrote:
Erwin Rol wrote:
What if I don't want to configure every little thing, or am not smart enough to do so ? And one configuration option that i could not find in KDE was the "follow GNOME HIG and theme" one ;-)
There is gtk-qt-engine in Fedora Extras, but, unfortunately, it's a bit buggy wrt recent gtk2 releases.
-- Rex
It doesn't follow HIG anyway... so...
Bogdan
Erwin Rol wrote:
Doesn't the gtk-qt engine create a GTK theme that uses a Qt theme ? With other words GNOME applications look like Qt applications. For a gnome desktop it would be better if there was a Qt theme engine that uses GTK to draw Qt/KDE applications.
True, but who cares as long as the look-n-feel is consistent?
Also since Qt is GPL, doesn't the gtk-qt-engine introduce some licensing problems, cause all GTK applications will than be "linked" with Qt, and so they all should be GPL (which isn't needed with GTK)
I don't think a theme-engine counts as "linking" in the GPL-sense, but that's just my non-lawyer opinion.
-- Rex
On Wed, 2006-04-05 at 08:33 +0200, Frank Schmitt wrote:
Marking all messages you want to delete with Control+Click first and deleting them all with Delete isn't an option?
This is IMAP. Clicking 'delete' marks a mail for deletion, and expunging the folder actually does delete those mails which have been so marked. Anything else is just the MUA playing silly buggers.
I don't think the workaround you suggest would be very compatible with my workflow. I work through a folder with whatever the keystroke is for 'next new message' (I mapped it to ']' since it's a KDE app and I can change things like that, and I'm used to that key in Evolution). I delete messages or read them, and keeping a set of random mails selected in order that I can delete them would be complicated. I want to just mark them for deletion, like I can in any normal MUA.
Rex Dieter wrote:
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
Your logic also hits on another packaging policy limitation in Core which doesn't strongly delineate between hard requirements and optional functionality which depends on an additional package to be installed to be functional.
AFAIK, the latest (or soon to be included in rawhide?) version of rpm will support new tags: Requires(hint): and/or Requires(missingok): to allow for such soft requirements.
Yup. Votes for getting a newer rpm version into rawhide sooner than later to https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=174307 ;)
- Panu -
On Wed, 2006-04-05 at 18:28 +0300, Panu Matilainen wrote:
Rex Dieter wrote:
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
Your logic also hits on another packaging policy limitation in Core which doesn't strongly delineate between hard requirements and optional functionality which depends on an additional package to be installed to be functional.
AFAIK, the latest (or soon to be included in rawhide?) version of rpm will support new tags: Requires(hint): and/or Requires(missingok): to allow for such soft requirements.
Yup. Votes for getting a newer rpm version into rawhide sooner than later to https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=174307 ;)
If there is a decision to support this stuff it might be a good idea to make sure we're converging on the same mechanism that the opensuse folks are.
-sv
seth vidal wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-05 at 18:28 +0300, Panu Matilainen wrote:
Rex Dieter wrote:
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
Your logic also hits on another packaging policy limitation in Core which doesn't strongly delineate between hard requirements and optional functionality which depends on an additional package to be installed to be functional.
AFAIK, the latest (or soon to be included in rawhide?) version of rpm will support new tags: Requires(hint): and/or Requires(missingok): to allow for such soft requirements.
Yup. Votes for getting a newer rpm version into rawhide sooner than later to https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=174307 ;)
If there is a decision to support this stuff it might be a good idea to make sure we're converging on the same mechanism that the opensuse folks are.
What is Opensuse using/doing then? Requires(hint) and Provides(hint) are just an rpm mechanism for allowing soft dependencies, anything beyond that is basically a policy question what to do about those in the depsolver.
- Panu -
KDE apps, including Kontact, force me to use the KDE look and feel, and pretty much ignore the GNOME settings I am used to. So KDE is just as well forcing _its_ model on you, just a different model.
Well, if you use the good old Bluecurve theme (not Clearlooks which has no KDE equivalent) in both Qt/KDE and GTK+/GNOME, you'll have to look very closely to even notice the difference. It's good enough for me. (I run KDE, but GTK+ apps integrate very well with my desktop.)
Kevin Kofler
On Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 10:15:20AM -0300, Pedro Fernandes Macedo wrote:
However, moving evolution to extras may not be a good idea IMHO, since evolution is the only tool (that I know of) that supports Exchange servers. That is certainly an important feature for many people in corporate environments (or people who use FC at home and need evolution to use the work e-mail).
Evolution in extras is a bad idea. Evolution in core is a worse idea. What other as good as unmaintained large buggy package exposed to external attack and with known unfixed DoS bugs (and probably worse yet to be found) do we ship.
Evolution belongs in the bitbucket.
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 07:42 -0400, Alan Cox wrote:
On Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 10:15:20AM -0300, Pedro Fernandes Macedo wrote:
However, moving evolution to extras may not be a good idea IMHO,
since evolution is the only tool (that I know of) that supports Exchange servers. That is certainly an important feature for many people in corporate environments (or people who use FC at home and need evolution to use the work e-mail).
Evolution in extras is a bad idea. Evolution in core is a worse idea. What other as good as unmaintained large buggy package exposed to external attack and with known unfixed DoS bugs (and probably worse yet to be found) do we ship.
Evolution belongs in the bitbucket.
And what are you suggesting as a replacement ? If Evolution ends up in the bitbucket, something else with the same functionality should replace it. So what other Gnome email+calendar+addressbook+task management application should i use instead of evolution ?
And why is evolution unmaintained? I mean it seems to be important enough that expensive commercial Linux distributions like RHEL use it as a default email client.
- Erwin
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 13:52 +0200, Erwin Rol wrote:
And why is evolution unmaintained? I mean it seems to be important enough that expensive commercial Linux distributions like RHEL use it as a default email client.
We have an open job req for an evolution maintainer. The current maintainer is otherwise engaged in other projects within our company. So far, nobody has come through to take up the task of Evolution maintainership. Please somebody step up (;
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 08:01 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 13:52 +0200, Erwin Rol wrote:
And why is evolution unmaintained? I mean it seems to be important enough that expensive commercial Linux distributions like RHEL use it as a default email client.
We have an open job req for an evolution maintainer. The current maintainer is otherwise engaged in other projects within our company. So far, nobody has come through to take up the task of Evolution maintainership. Please somebody step up (;
Well Evolution maintainership takes a lot of Intelligent Design, not just everybody is up to that :-)
- Erwin
On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 08:01:54AM -0400, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 13:52 +0200, Erwin Rol wrote:
And why is evolution unmaintained? I mean it seems to be important enough that expensive commercial Linux distributions like RHEL use it as a default email client.
We have an open job req for an evolution maintainer. The current maintainer is otherwise engaged in other projects within our company. So far, nobody has come through to take up the task of Evolution maintainership. Please somebody step up (;
Move it to Extras and you can pander for a maintainer you don't even have to pay.
;)
josh
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 07:42 -0400, Alan Cox wrote:
Evolution belongs in the bitbucket.
Alan,
This is pretty scary. Switching people off email clients like this is a big problem. People get really attached to their MUAs for lots of reasons, not in the least being that their mail archives can't be easily moved from client to client.
Guys, Red Hat has been pushing Evo for a _long_ time now. It has to stay behind their choices, not force millions of users to switch at a drop of a hat (pun intended :)).
This is a lot more serious than switching web browsers or other apps. Too many people will get affected, and rightfully pissed at RH. Silly excuses that you couldn't hire people to work on it will not fly.
I'm really surprised that folks at RH throw around such scenarios without thinking a bit about consequences. How can enterprises trust you with any technological guidance/decision when you are willing to do things that would cost them untold millions without even blinking?
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 15:08 +0200, Leszek Matok wrote:
It's the program that needs a maintainer, not the package (which is actively maintained).
No, the package is not actively maintained. Much more work could be done on it, including working with upstream. There is an upstream and they are accepting bugs, and supposedly working on them. Red Hat would love to pay someone to maintain our package and participate upstream in the program.
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 09:11 -0400, Dimi Paun wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 07:42 -0400, Alan Cox wrote:
Evolution belongs in the bitbucket.
Alan,
This is pretty scary. Switching people off email clients like this is a big problem. People get really attached to their MUAs for lots of reasons, not in the least being that their mail archives can't be easily moved from client to client.
Guys, Red Hat has been pushing Evo for a _long_ time now. It has to stay behind their choices, not force millions of users to switch at a drop of a hat (pun intended :)).
This is a lot more serious than switching web browsers or other apps. Too many people will get affected, and rightfully pissed at RH. Silly excuses that you couldn't hire people to work on it will not fly.
I'm really surprised that folks at RH throw around such scenarios without thinking a bit about consequences. How can enterprises trust you with any technological guidance/decision when you are willing to do things that would cost them untold millions without even blinking?
You are over over-dramatizing. This is not a place for enterprises to get technology guidance and nobody's personal opinions here is going to cost anyone untold millions.
Rahul
On 4/12/06, Dimi Paun dimi@lattica.com wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 07:42 -0400, Alan Cox wrote:
Evolution belongs in the bitbucket.
Alan,
This is pretty scary. Switching people off email clients like this is a big problem. People get really attached to their MUAs
.....
I'm really surprised that folks at RH throw around such scenarios without thinking a bit about consequences. How can enterprises trust you with any technological guidance/decision when you are willing to do things that would cost them untold millions without even blinking?
I think that would be a stiffling of free speech on this list. "Oh I work for Red Hat, I cant give my opinion about what a program does and where it should be." Alan said his opinion and several other people have too. Whether evolution is killed or not is the Fedora Execs decision.
-- Stephen J Smoogen. CSIRT/Linux System Administrator
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 18:58 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
You are over over-dramatizing. This is not a place for enterprises to get technology guidance and nobody's personal opinions here is going to cost anyone untold millions.
Give me a break. Alan is just not anybody, and neither is dwmw2, and others in Red Hat. Also, we've just been told how Fedora is essential to Red Hat's business strategy, and why we can't have a Foundation. Which is fine by me, but this means you can not have this 100% separation between Fedora and Red Hat, which is conveniently waved whenever there are uncomfortable questions.
And please don't tell me there's no connection with RHEL. We wouldn't have this conversation now if Evo would be maintained. If you can maintain it for RHEL, I can't see why it will not be maintained for Fedora. And if so, this discussion would be moot. But since lots of RH people call for its immediate demise, it can only mean that it's going to be dumped in RHEL as well.
Dumping Evo now, after being pushed for years by RH, can not be a Good Thing (TM).
On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 09:11:26AM -0400, Dimi Paun wrote:
This is pretty scary. Switching people off email clients like this is a big problem. People get really attached to their MUAs for lots of reasons, not in the least being that their mail archives can't be easily moved from client to client.
It won't be the first time we dumped an email client (we've dropped nmh, exmh, elm, ...) before.
Guys, Red Hat has been pushing Evo for a _long_ time now. It has to stay behind their choices, not force millions of users to switch at a drop of a hat (pun intended :)).
The question is whether Evolution is fixable in a sane timescale and whether it is fit to ship in FC5. I would put a 50/50 bet on a serious security flaw in evolution during FC5. Now how are we going to fix it ?
without thinking a bit about consequences. How can enterprises trust you with any technological guidance/decision when you are willing to do things that would cost them untold millions without even blinking?
This is Fedora. Its a development project to produce leading edge stuff. It isn't a business product. Even if a future Red Hat Enterprise product dropped Evolutuion, or evolution imploded fatally upstream as appears quite possible there is already a commitment to support it on the existing enterprise product and if it was considered for dropping in a future product that would be the kind of thing that had a long long notice period and be subject to user views.
Fedora we can do things that are technically right, or throw the ideas around for discussion and a chance to ask "what are the alternatives". RHEL has many other constraints.
Alan
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 09:47 -0400, Dimi Paun wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 18:58 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
You are over over-dramatizing. This is not a place for enterprises to get technology guidance and nobody's personal opinions here is going to cost anyone untold millions.
Give me a break. Alan is just not anybody, and neither is dwmw2, and others in Red Hat. Also, we've just been told how Fedora is essential to Red Hat's business strategy, and why we can't have a Foundation. Which is fine by me, but this means you can not have this 100% separation between Fedora and Red Hat, which is conveniently waved whenever there are uncomfortable questions.
Clarification: Administrative costs are far more of a important factor than business strategies in the decision to fold the foundation. Feel free to ask questions regardless of its comfort values.
And please don't tell me there's no connection with RHEL. We wouldn't have this conversation now if Evo would be maintained. If you can maintain it for RHEL, I can't see why it will not be maintained for Fedora. And if so, this discussion would be moot. But since lots of RH people call for its immediate demise, it can only mean that it's going to be dumped in RHEL as well.
Dumping Evo now, after being pushed for years by RH, can not be a Good Thing (TM).
Artificially tying up this discussion to RHEL would be stifling up a open discussion on potential alternatives. RHEL customers have better channels to discuss their concerns.
Rahul
On 4/12/06, Dimi Paun dimi@lattica.com wrote:
Give me a break. Alan is just not anybody, and neither is dwmw2, and others in Red Hat. Dumping Evo now, after being pushed for years by RH, can not be a Good Thing (TM).
Relying on a default application that does not have upstream development momentum and is accumulating security related issues which are not being fixed is also a problem. In a world with no perfect solution and no way to know the future, all choices are sub-optimal. For every reason you can think of to stick with an application choice over multiple releases for consistency, I can think of a circumstances where there is a detrimental effect..even for business users... when that codebase is no longer being appropriately supported by upstream.
No one is suggesting that moving or dropping evo is a decision that will be painless. But there absolutely must be flexibility to review application inclusions decisions from time to time and modify the software that is offered based on concerns about maintainability and security over consistency. Clearly there needs to be a commitment to a piece of software that is included for more than oen release of fedora...but its absurd to think that its inappropriate to discuss the option of trading a piece of software out for something more secure and better maintained upstream... six releases into the process.
-jef"here's what I don't get in dimi's post. He suggest that the opinions of alan and other red hatter engineers hold extras special weight just because they are employees, contrary to the statements made by a fedora board member. If dimi really really believes that, why is dimi bothering to be a part of this discussion at all, since by dimi's own logic his opinion doesn't count. You either accept that this is an open dialog where people have an equal access to explain and support their position or you don't. And if you don't well then don't bother wading into the discussion."spaleta
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 10:18 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
Relying on a default application that does not have upstream development momentum and is accumulating security related issues which are not being fixed is also a problem. In a world with no perfect solution and no way to know the future, all choices are sub-optimal.
This is understood, I know how free software works. But in this case it seems people are just venting against Evo. And let me tell you, I can so relate to that :) And please let me make this clear: I'm not arguing at all against people freely expressing opinions on this list. But it doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
First, people simply suggested dropping Evo, nobody bothered to suggest a decent replacement. And for a good reason -- there aren't any.
Second, looking at the bigger picture, it's clear that RH needs an inhouse developer for Evo whether they like it or not. At which point, I don't see why we would need to consider dropping Evo.
Third, let's put things in perspective. It's one thing to drop nmh which affects a small group of mostly technical users, it's another matter to drop the main graphical client than everybody and their brother are using. Not to mention that said graphical client stores mail on disk in format that last I've checked is not recognized by other MUAs.
-jef"here's what I don't get in dimi's post. He suggest that the opinions of alan and other red hatter engineers hold extras special weight just because they are employees, contrary to the statements made by a fedora board member. If dimi really really believes that, why is dimi bothering to be a part of this discussion at all, since by dimi's own logic his opinion doesn't count. You either accept that this is an open dialog where people have an equal access to explain and support their position or you don't. And if you don't well then don't bother wading into the discussion."spaleta
Please. I highly doubt my opinion weighs as much as Alan's within RH. And that's fine, not sure why you're trying to paint a black-or-white picture when there's obviously a ton of gray in between. :)
<snip lots of posturing by various folks....>
But, the question remains:
What is an alternative that includes not only email and contacts, but also calendaring and task lists for a Gnome oriented environment?
I don't have a problem with contemplating the death of Evolution, but what do we use instead?
--Rob
ons, 12 04 2006 kl. 10:52 -0400, skrev Robert Locke:
<snip lots of posturing by various folks....>
But, the question remains:
What is an alternative that includes not only email and contacts, but also calendaring and task lists for a Gnome oriented environment?
I don't have a problem with contemplating the death of Evolution, but what do we use instead?
Maybe we could use Dates, Contacts and Tinymail as a complete replacement - although this would require some work I think the solution would be sufficent as it all integrates via e-d-s (the only excusable part of Evolution to be honest).
FC6 is still a lont time away, I'm sure we could make this work by then - what I'm mostly worried about is upstream acceptance of the decision to dump Evolution.
- David
speak with IBM and get a Lotus Notus nativ port to Linux (GNOME like)
Greets, Bernhard Suttner
On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:52:20 -0400 Robert Locke lists@ralii.com wrote:
<snip lots of posturing by various folks....>
But, the question remains:
What is an alternative that includes not only email and contacts, but also calendaring and task lists for a Gnome oriented environment?
I don't have a problem with contemplating the death of Evolution, but what do we use instead?
--Rob
-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 04:57:55PM +0200, Bernhard Suttner wrote:
speak with IBM and get a Lotus Notus nativ port to Linux (GNOME like)
As Open Source?
On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:59:12 +0200 Jos Vos jos@xos.nl wrote:
On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 04:57:55PM +0200, Bernhard Suttner wrote:
speak with IBM and get a Lotus Notus nativ port to Linux (GNOME like)
As Open Source?
would be really a god deal with IBM to release Lotus Notus as open source.
-- -- Jos Vos jos@xos.nl -- X/OS Experts in Open Systems BV | Phone: +31 20 6938364 -- Amsterdam, The Netherlands | Fax: +31 20 6948204
-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Bernhard Suttner (suttner@anduras.de) said:
speak with IBM and get a Lotus Notus nativ port to Linux (GNOME like)
As Open Source?
would be really a god deal with IBM to release Lotus Notus as open source.
You know, I've heard all the complaints mentioned in this thread.... I don't even *use* Evo, and I'd still prefer it to Notes. :)
Bill
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 11:04 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
You know, I've heard all the complaints mentioned in this thread.... I don't even *use* Evo, and I'd still prefer it to Notes. :)
Hear, hear.
Folks, if you get excited about Notes, you didn't use it. Or you're just trying to sabotage Fedora :)
It's so bad it's not even funny. Lets not even think about it, please.
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 17:01 +0200, Bernhard Suttner wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:59:12 +0200 Jos Vos jos@xos.nl wrote:
On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 04:57:55PM +0200, Bernhard Suttner wrote:
speak with IBM and get a Lotus Notus nativ port to Linux (GNOME like)
As Open Source?
would be really a god deal with IBM to release Lotus Notus as open source.
Yeah so we can directly dump it in the bitbucket. Notes is nor Evolution nor Intelligent Design, it is simply a mistake.
- Erwin
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 15:57 +0100, Jose' Matos wrote:
FWIW, kmail (that I am using embedded in kontact) claims otherwise. :-)
kmail is a really good mail client. I've used it for years, and I do prefer it to Evo. The bug that dwmw2 pointed out is annoying, but not a show stopper for most people.
However, it's not really an option for a GNOME desktop. Both GNOME and KDE are bloated pigs, you really can't force both environments in memory (with all their libs, daemons, etc) for everybody.
Le Mer 12 avril 2006 15:29, Stephen J. Smoogen a écrit :
I think that would be a stiffling of free speech on this list. "Oh I work for Red Hat, I cant give my opinion about what a program does and where it should be." Alan said his opinion and several other people have too. Whether evolution is killed or not is the Fedora Execs decision.
Also Alan's opinions carry a lot of weight because he has nothing to proove and is usually clueful and honest.
The @rh tag is nothing compared to this.
Le Mer 12 avril 2006 17:04, Bill Nottingham a écrit :
Bernhard Suttner (suttner@anduras.de) said:
speak with IBM and get a Lotus Notus nativ port to Linux (GNOME
like)
As Open Source?
would be really a god deal with IBM to release Lotus Notus as open source.
You know, I've heard all the complaints mentioned in this thread.... I don't even *use* Evo, and I'd still prefer it to Notes. :)
All the current fat mail clients deserve the barf bag unfortunately.
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 09:47 -0400, Dimi Paun wrote:
Give me a break. Alan is just not anybody, and neither is dwmw2, and others in Red Hat.
If my opinion counted for anything we wouldn't have dropped our most capable and easy to use MTA just before FC4.
We do need to have a serious discussion about what we're going to do with/about Evolution though... which is what seems to be happening.
On Wednesday 12 April 2006 09:23am, Dimi Paun wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 15:57 +0100, Jose' Matos wrote:
FWIW, kmail (that I am using embedded in kontact) claims otherwise. :-)
Yup. In fact, I switched to Evolution for a while back with Evo 1.4 and then back to KMail with Evo 2.0 and KMail did all the conversion just fine. But I didn't have to convert much. Only one of my email accounts is POPed. I use IMAP for the rest so it doesn't matter what email client I use, conversion is as easy as connecting a new client to the IMAP server.
kmail is a really good mail client. I've used it for years, and I do prefer it to Evo. The bug that dwmw2 pointed out is annoying, but not a show stopper for most people.
Well, I'm still not certain I would call that a "bug" :) .
However, it's not really an option for a GNOME desktop. Both GNOME and KDE are bloated pigs, you really can't force both environments in memory (with all their libs, daemons, etc) for everybody.
And you don't have to. You can run KMail and/or Kontact on GNOME without installing the whole environment. You only need a couple of libs.
I use GNOME apps on KDE, too, and I don't have GNOME installed. I have a few dozen MB of GNOME libraries installed and it just works.
OK. All that said, we can not suggest Kontact as a replacement GNOME app (since it isn't a GNOME app) for Evolution, which is a condition some have already expressed.
Some people hate using GNOME apps, other hate using KDE apps.
Me? I'm fine with using good tools, regardless of which environment's tools they are written in. Personally, I have found more stability and reliability with KDE. I have friends who spit out the work "KDE" like chitlets, vowing to never leave GNOME. That's fine. I just roll my eyes while they have printing and evince issues and I can print anything I want and have never seen KPDF crash or screw up rendering once.
My point is, my experience is mine. YMMV. Don't flame me because my environment works and yours falls apart.
To be totally fair, there are, of course, bugs in KDE apps that I use and love. It took a year for Konsole to finally get rid of the "reloading tabs with the same name causes renaming of tabs" bug, which annoyed me (but at least, it didn't break and crash). That's just one example, and there are others, but for me, on the whole, KDE is far more stable.
Again, YMMV. That's *my* story and I'm not going to impose my opinion on any of you...even though I'm right :) hehe.
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 10:52 -0400, Robert Locke wrote:
What is an alternative that includes not only email and contacts, but also calendaring and task lists for a Gnome oriented environment?
I use Evolution to integrate my home and work email and calendaring in a nice seamless interface. Without an Exchange-compatible MUA, I might as well go back to using mutt, because the only way I'll be able to see my work email or calendar is through the webmail interface.
You can do all the handwringing you want about "proprietary software", but this is a real-world integration need for me as a desktop user who actually works for a living, and I have an open-source solution that works for me today. What software would you suggest I switch to that continues to meet this need?
On Wednesday 12 April 2006 05:52am, Erwin Rol wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 07:42 -0400, Alan Cox wrote:
On Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 10:15:20AM -0300, Pedro Fernandes Macedo wrote:
[snip]
Evolution belongs in the bitbucket.
And what are you suggesting as a replacement ? If Evolution ends up in the bitbucket, something else with the same functionality should replace it. So what other Gnome email+calendar+addressbook+task management application should i use instead of evolution ?
Well, if you put that many specific requirements into pot, then of course you're going to be right. If you drop just GNOME from "Gnome email+calendar+addressbook+task management", then there are options. If you take out all the +s, then you can find individual GNOME apps that collectively provide all those capabilities, albeit not in a tightly integrated fashion.
So, here's a suggestion: Take the best individual GNOME apps and glue them together, ala` Kontact. It would be quick (relatively speaking) to do and would give people who will only consider GNOME apps choice (and therefore, freedom) again; something they have not had in a while, as you so aptly pointed out.
I would suggest that this could/should be done regardless of what happens to Evo.
And why is evolution unmaintained? I mean it seems to be important enough that expensive commercial Linux distributions like RHEL use it as a default email client.
I'm wondering the same thing. I see some indications that there is still an active (though the pulse is weak?) upstream. What happened to those Evolution authors/developers/maintainers?
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 11:22 -0600, Lamont R. Peterson wrote:
And why is evolution unmaintained? I mean it seems to be important enough that expensive commercial Linux distributions like RHEL use it as a default email client.
I'm wondering the same thing. I see some indications that there is still an active (though the pulse is weak?) upstream. What happened to those Evolution authors/developers/maintainers?
Don't confuse some people voicing their personal frustration with evolution with factual information. Instead, go to
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-patches/ or http://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-hackers/
and watch the upstream development, or better yet, help out.
Matthias
2006/4/12, Edward S. Marshall esm@logic.net:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 10:52 -0400, Robert Locke wrote:
What is an alternative that includes not only email and contacts, but also calendaring and task lists for a Gnome oriented environment?
I use Evolution to integrate my home and work email and calendaring in a nice seamless interface. Without an Exchange-compatible MUA, I might as well go back to using mutt, because the only way I'll be able to see my work email or calendar is through the webmail interface.
You can do all the handwringing you want about "proprietary software", but this is a real-world integration need for me as a desktop user who actually works for a living, and I have an open-source solution that works for me today. What software would you suggest I switch to that continues to meet this need?
-- Edward S. Marshall esm@logic.net http://esm.logic.net/ Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
from what i have read i see the following pros and cons:
pro: - evolution has user acceptance - evolution integrates nicely with gnome - evolution is a full featured groupware client - evolution has a nice plugin interface - evolution provides functionality that can not be compensated by another tool
con: - evolution is unmaintained - evolution has potentially problematic code
rewrite? redesign?
but the question is... if theres no existing maintainer for it.. where does the workforce come from to integrate another client and get it that far? whats the scheduled time for a replacement? or rather... where are proper design docs for a well designed groupware client?
i come to the conclusion that theres currently no other way than finding a maintainer for evo that starts kicking butt upstream.
regards, rudolf kastl
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 10:32 -0600, Lamont R. Peterson wrote:
And you don't have to. You can run KMail and/or Kontact on GNOME without installing the whole environment. You only need a couple of libs.
You are missing the point. Starting any KDE app loads a lot of sh*t in memory that need not be there. If I'm using only apps from one environment, they share the same infrastructure (including libs loaded in memory). It would be insane to go to a default where *both* KDE and GNOME need to be loaded in order to do anything useful in GNOME.
On Wednesday 12 April 2006 09:16am, Dimi Paun wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 11:04 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
You know, I've heard all the complaints mentioned in this thread.... I don't even *use* Evo, and I'd still prefer it to Notes. :)
Hear, hear.
Folks, if you get excited about Notes, you didn't use it. Or you're just trying to sabotage Fedora :)
It's so bad it's not even funny. Lets not even think about it, please.
I've seen a few different organizations over the years that are using Notes. In some, everyone loves it; in others, everyone hates it.
In my observations, it was clear that those who hated it just used it as a calendar and email client; they never use Notes for what Notes is designed. Those who love it, use the databases and so forth. Their use of Notes includes integrated use of most of it's capabilities. In these cases, they don't seem to feel overwhelmed either, as they use Notes the way it was designed to operate.
No matter which side of this fence you find yourself on, it's clear to me that Notes is a very different kind of application. I think it has great value to many people and organizations.
I would love to see a native Linux Notes client (Domino has run on Linux for years) and it would be 10 times better if that was open source.
However, I don't think that Notes and Evolution quite fit into the same category. Therefore, I don't think Notes is a viable candidate in this thread.
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 11:22 -0600, Lamont R. Peterson wrote:
And why is evolution unmaintained? I mean it seems to be important enough that expensive commercial Linux distributions like RHEL use it as a default email client.
I'm wondering the same thing. I see some indications that there is still an active (though the pulse is weak?) upstream. What happened to those Evolution authors/developers/maintainers?
Evolution is unmaintained within Red Hat because we haven't managed to fill the open position for a maintainer.
Upstream, there _is_ active development; it's just that it doesn't always seem to be _improvement_. There's been a change of guard recently, but that's not a bad thing. The new guys seem a _lot_ saner.
Lamont R. Peterson wrote:
Well, if you put that many specific requirements into pot, then of course you're going to be right. If you drop just GNOME from "Gnome email+calendar+addressbook+task management", then there are options. If you take out all the +s, then you can find individual GNOME apps that collectively provide all those capabilities, albeit not in a tightly integrated fashion.
If there are individual Gnome apps that provide these things, I am unaware of them. Please share! I'd gladly dump Evo for something(s) better, but I have yet to see anything with equivalent functionality. Evolution's monolithic nature is very un-unixlike, even Mozilla has been splitting things out.
However the last thing we (Or I, at any rate) want to do is lose this: http://actsofvolition.com/archives/2004/july/simpledesktop
On Wednesday 12 April 2006 11:37am, Dimi Paun wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 10:32 -0600, Lamont R. Peterson wrote:
And you don't have to. You can run KMail and/or Kontact on GNOME without installing the whole environment. You only need a couple of libs.
You are missing the point.
No, I understand your viewpoint. Apparently, you did not understand mine ... go back and read my entire post. it looks like you replied without reading all of it.
Starting any KDE app loads a lot of sh*t in memory that need not be there. If I'm using only apps from one environment, they share the same infrastructure (including libs loaded in memory). It would be insane to go to a default where *both* KDE and GNOME need to be loaded in order to do anything useful in GNOME.
Yup. That's what I said, only I didn't (and wouldn't) use the word "insane".
IMO, it's not that insane to _run_ GNOME and KDE apps side by side on top of either KDE or GNOME. Yes, there are more libs loaded into memory, but have you looked to see how much RAM is actually being used in that case? It's not *that* much.
However, I agree it's not a good idea to force all users to install both GNOME and KDE desktop environments.
But to run KDE and GNOME apps on top of each other doesn't require you to install the whole of both desktop environments. In fact, it only requires a very few libs.
If you had read my entire post, you would have seen that's what I was saying.
On Wednesday 12 April 2006 11:27am, Matthias Clasen wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 11:22 -0600, Lamont R. Peterson wrote:
And why is evolution unmaintained? I mean it seems to be important enough that expensive commercial Linux distributions like RHEL use it as a default email client.
I'm wondering the same thing. I see some indications that there is still an active (though the pulse is weak?) upstream. What happened to those Evolution authors/developers/maintainers?
Don't confuse some people voicing their personal frustration with evolution with factual information. Instead, go to
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-patches/ or http://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-hackers/
Thanks. That's what I meant, I wanted some facts ... not just perceptions.
and watch the upstream development, or better yet, help out.
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 12:44 -0600, Lamont R. Peterson wrote:
However, I agree it's not a good idea to force all users to install both GNOME and KDE desktop environments.
Right. I think we agree (yes, I have read your entire post, sorry if that wasn't clear from my response). Indeed, I sometimes run apps from both desktops side-by-side (k3b comes to mind), and that's just fine. But I don't want to be forced to do that by default to get basic functionality out of my desktop. It's a big difference between the two use cases.
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 11:22 -0600, Lamont R. Peterson wrote:
Well, if you put that many specific requirements into pot, then of course you're going to be right. If you drop just GNOME from "Gnome email+calendar+addressbook+task management", then there are options.
If you drop Linux I am sure you can use outlook. I use a Gnome desktop and no matter how ppl keep repeating the "you can use KDE apps" it does not work. Using KDE apps on a Gnome Desktop is like using a wine outlook on a Linux desktop, it works but there are zillion little things like cut and paste, default file browser, default web browser, system settings etc. that all are different.
Using KDE apps in a Gnome desktop is just no option.
If you take out all the +s, then you can find individual GNOME apps that collectively provide all those capabilities, albeit not in a tightly integrated fashion.
Can you please name the Gnome apps that offer all the functionality that Evolution offers ?
So, here's a suggestion: Take the best individual GNOME apps and glue them together, ala` Kontact. It would be quick (relatively speaking) to do and would give people who will only consider GNOME apps choice (and therefore, freedom) again; something they have not had in a while, as you so aptly pointed out.
If those Apps existed it would be no problem, the thing is there is no 100% Gnome replacement for the functionality that Evolution offers. Also when you are connected to some sort of groupware system, it might be problematic when you have 4 or 5 completely separate applications, because they all will need a connection to the groupware server.
- Erwin
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 11:58 -0400, David Woodhouse wrote:
If my opinion counted for anything we wouldn't have dropped our most capable and easy to use MTA just before FC4.
Hey, I just said it counts more than mine, not that's absolute :) BTW, is that exim? What's wrong with postfix?
We do need to have a serious discussion about what we're going to do with/about Evolution though... which is what seems to be happening.
Not sure we are having a serious discussion. A lot of ranting, not a single serious proposal. The more we talk about it, the more it seems that the only reasonable thing to do is for RH to get someone on Evo.
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 16:37 -0400, Dimi Paun wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 11:58 -0400, David Woodhouse wrote:
If my opinion counted for anything we wouldn't have dropped our most capable and easy to use MTA just before FC4.
Hey, I just said it counts more than mine, not that's absolute :) BTW, is that exim? What's wrong with postfix?
There's nothing _wrong_ with it per se -- it's just that it can't do half the things my Exim setup does with Exim out of the box. I did post a brief overview of my Exim setup at the time, asking how I'd go about doing it all in postfix. Most of the postfix people just went quiet, except for the one who said "Oh. I think I'll switch to Exim myself." :)
Not sure we are having a serious discussion. A lot of ranting, not a single serious proposal. The more we talk about it, the more it seems that the only reasonable thing to do is for RH to get someone on Evo.
Underlining that need is not necessarily unproductive.
On 4/12/06, Dimi Paun dimi@lattica.com wrote:
Not sure we are having a serious discussion. A lot of ranting, not a single serious proposal. The more we talk about it, the more it seems that the only reasonable thing to do is for RH to get someone on Evo.
Ok, here's a proposal. Someone with some influence talk to the Open Office folks, and ask them to adopt the Evo code, weave their magic on it, and roll it up with the rest of the OO.o stuff. Seems to me, an MUA is all thats missing from OO.
That is all.. carry on.
ons, 12 04 2006 kl. 15:50 -0600, skrev Michael Young:
On 4/12/06, Dimi Paun dimi@lattica.com wrote:
Not sure we are having a serious discussion. A lot of ranting, not a single serious proposal. The more we talk about it, the more it seems that the only reasonable thing to do is for RH to get someone on Evo.Ok, here's a proposal. Someone with some influence talk to the Open Office folks, and ask them to adopt the Evo code, weave their magic on it, and roll it up with the rest of the OO.o stuff. Seems to me, an MUA is all thats missing from OO.
That is all.. carry on.
No.. just no - I beg you
My brain nearly exploded when I read that to be honest, OpenOffice is maybe the single product I hate more than Evolution combining them would be so terrifying that even almighty Cthultu would be impressed with the evil act.
I still favor a best of breed application approach with integration via evolution-data-server or a similar solution.
We already have some components to work on:
Contacts: http://chrislord.net/blog/Software/Contacts/
Dates: http://chrislord.net/blog/Software/Dates/
TinyMail: https://svn.cronos.be/svn/tinymail/trunk/
Hopefully that opens for the possibility of replacing Evolution down the road.
- David
If you drop Linux I am sure you can use outlook. I use a Gnome desktop and no matter how ppl keep repeating the "you can use KDE apps" it does not work. Using KDE apps on a Gnome Desktop is like using a wine outlook on a Linux desktop, it works but there are zillion little things like cut and paste,
Cut&paste is completely compatible between KDE and GNOME apps and has been for a long time now! The Qt clipboard bug where it mixed up PRIMARY (selection) and CLIPBOARD was fixed ages ago.
default file browser, default web browser,
Run kcontrol and you can set your file associations. Getting Kontact to run your GNOME applications when you open a file or URL in it is not hard. The default browser for KDE apps is the setting for "text/html".
system settings etc. that all are different.
Just set them to the same thing. KDE is very flexible, it's possible to get it to match the GNOME configuration very closely.
Kevin Kofler
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 22:23 +0000, Kevin Kofler wrote:
If you drop Linux I am sure you can use outlook. I use a Gnome desktop and no matter how ppl keep repeating the "you can use KDE apps" it does not work. Using KDE apps on a Gnome Desktop is like using a wine outlook on a Linux desktop, it works but there are zillion little things like cut and paste,
Cut&paste is completely compatible between KDE and GNOME apps and has been for a long time now! The Qt clipboard bug where it mixed up PRIMARY (selection) and CLIPBOARD was fixed ages ago.
Might just be me, but in kdevelop (the only kde application i use) i always end up screwing cut and paste up, since ctrl-c/v and middle-mouse-button seem to interact at random.
default file browser, default web browser,
Run kcontrol and you can set your file associations. Getting Kontact to run your GNOME applications when you open a file or URL in it is not hard. The default browser for KDE apps is the setting for "text/html".
Why would i have to run kcontrol ? I mean i am using a Gnome desktop, not a KDE one.
system settings etc. that all are different.
Just set them to the same thing. KDE is very flexible, it's possible to get it to match the GNOME configuration very closely.
So you are suggesting that everybody will set all settings twice, one time for Gnome and one time for KDE? This is exactly the problem with a Gnome and KDE mix, it is a PITA.
- Erwin
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 22:23 +0000, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Using KDE apps on a Gnome Desktop is like using a wine outlook
on a Linux desktop, it works but there are zillion little things like cut and paste,
Cut&paste is completely compatible between KDE and GNOME apps and has been for a long time now! The Qt clipboard bug where it mixed up PRIMARY (selection) and CLIPBOARD was fixed ages ago.
We were talking about Evolution, so broken cut and paste wouldn't be a regression there anyway -- it's _already_ broken in Evolution. (#145314, filed 2005-01-17, state NEW)
On Wednesday 12 April 2006 04:45pm, Erwin Rol wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 22:23 +0000, Kevin Kofler wrote:
If you drop Linux I am sure you can use outlook. I use a Gnome desktop and no matter how ppl keep repeating the "you can use KDE apps" it does not work. Using KDE apps on a Gnome Desktop is like using a wine outlook on a Linux desktop, it works but there are zillion little things like cut and paste,
Cut&paste is completely compatible between KDE and GNOME apps and has been for a long time now! The Qt clipboard bug where it mixed up PRIMARY (selection) and CLIPBOARD was fixed ages ago.
Might just be me, but in kdevelop (the only kde application i use) i always end up screwing cut and paste up, since ctrl-c/v and middle-mouse-button seem to interact at random.
It's not random.
If you use <CTRL>+<V>, it copies the item to the clipboard *and* marks that clipboard entry as the "checked" one. Using the mouse to select text does not "check" the entry in the clipboard. Either way, middle-clicking your mouse will paste from the "last mouse selection" unless another clipboard has been activated (i.e. "checked"). This is normal X with multiple clipboards available.
GNOME has no mechanism to deal with multiple clipboards in X, but KDE does and uses it by default. klipper lets you manage the multiple clipboards.
default file browser, default web browser,
Run kcontrol and you can set your file associations. Getting Kontact to run your GNOME applications when you open a file or URL in it is not hard. The default browser for KDE apps is the setting for "text/html".
Why would i have to run kcontrol ? I mean i am using a Gnome desktop, not a KDE one.
kcontrol has lots of knobs and switches. However, you don't need to tweak very many of them at all. In this case, he's talking about changing the file launcher configurations so that you would get Firefox or Mozilla (or whatever) instead of Konqueror when you click a link in an email in Kontact.
system settings etc. that all are different.
Just set them to the same thing. KDE is very flexible, it's possible to get it to match the GNOME configuration very closely.
So you are suggesting that everybody will set all settings twice, one time for Gnome and one time for KDE? This is exactly the problem with a Gnome and KDE mix, it is a PITA.
No, we're not talking about everyone setting all their settings twice. Just tweak the things you want for the apps you want. That's not going to be very much stuff. With KDE, once you've got that figured out, it's pretty easy to mass deploy such configuration changes, too, so you really will only *have* to do this once (unless you change your mind frequently :) ).
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 18:45 -0600, Lamont R. Peterson wrote:
system settings etc. that all are different.
Just set them to the same thing. KDE is very flexible, it's possible to get it to match the GNOME configuration very closely.
So you are suggesting that everybody will set all settings twice, one time for Gnome and one time for KDE? This is exactly the problem with a Gnome and KDE mix, it is a PITA.
No, we're not talking about everyone setting all their settings twice. Just tweak the things you want for the apps you want. That's not going to be very much stuff. With KDE, once you've got that figured out, it's pretty easy to mass deploy such configuration changes, too, so you really will only *have* to do this once (unless you change your mind frequently :) ).
I still have to deal with two different "configuration" tools, that do about the same thing but a bit different. If i want to tune app K i need the KDE configuration tool, if i need to tune app G i need the gnome configuration tool. When kde apps and gnome apps look exactly like each other (which is an other problem, different look and feel) how do i know that i need kconfig when i want to tune app K? KDE and Gnome are two different things, even though they do almost the same thing. It is like using Honda parts to fix a Fort, a handy mechaninc might make it work, but it would be way easier to use Fort parts to fix a Fort.
- Erwin
On Wednesday 12 April 2006 07:00pm, Erwin Rol wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 18:45 -0600, Lamont R. Peterson wrote:
[snip]
I still have to deal with two different "configuration" tools, that do about the same thing but a bit different. If i want to tune app K i need the KDE configuration tool, if i need to tune app G i need the gnome configuration tool. When kde apps and gnome apps look exactly like each other (which is an other problem, different look and feel) how do i know that i need kconfig when i want to tune app K? KDE and Gnome are two different things, even though they do almost the same thing.
How is that different from normal operations? I have to use the configuration dialog in KMail (Kontact) to configure my email client and the one in Konqueror for that app and the one in Xchat for that app, etc., etc., etc., etc.
You *do not have* to use kcontrol every day. I use KDE as my desktop and I only look at kcontrol about once a month because I *want* to change something. It wouldn't even be that frequently if it weren't for the nature of my profession (and of my nature, I'll admit :) ).
It is like using Honda parts to fix a Fort, a handy mechaninc might make it work, but it would be way easier to use Fort parts to fix a Fort.
Interesting analogy. Of course, I've never driven a Fort, though I've stood on a couple of walls :) .
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 19:12 -0600, Lamont R. Peterson wrote:
It is like using Honda parts to fix a Fort, a handy mechaninc might make it work, but it would be way easier to use Fort parts to fix a Fort.
Interesting analogy. Of course, I've never driven a Fort, though I've stood on a couple of walls :) .
OK that was an interesting repeated typo/thinko :-) But think how hard it would be the fix a castle with Ford parts :-)
- Erwin
On Thu, 2006-04-13 at 00:20 +0200, David Nielsen wrote:
We already have some components to work on:
Contacts: http://chrislord.net/blog/Software/Contacts/
Dates: http://chrislord.net/blog/Software/Dates/
TinyMail: https://svn.cronos.be/svn/tinymail/trunk/
Hopefully that opens for the possibility of replacing Evolution down the road.
Can I suggest you (or someone else who cares) package these up for extras so we can test it out. It looks as if tinymail will require gunit first.
Paul
Le mercredi 12 avril 2006 à 11:45 -0600, Lamont R. Peterson a écrit :
I would love to see a native Linux Notes client (Domino has run on Linux for years) and it would be 10 times better if that was open source.
IBM is supposed to be prepping an eclipse-based Notes linux client. It will include a bunch of old code though so I doubt they'll open-source it.
On Thu, 2006-04-13 at 20:07 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le mercredi 12 avril 2006 à 11:45 -0600, Lamont R. Peterson a écrit :
I would love to see a native Linux Notes client (Domino has run on Linux for years) and it would be 10 times better if that was open source.
IBM is supposed to be prepping an eclipse-based Notes linux client. It will include a bunch of old code though so I doubt they'll open-source it.
It's called IBM Workplace
http://www-142.ibm.com/software/workplace/products/product5.nsf/wdocs/workpl...
Just think for a second... take Notes, and all of the crap that comes with it. Now, wrap eclipse around it and all of the overhead that incurs. That doesn't really make you excited, does it?
josh
tor, 13 04 2006 kl. 08:27 -0400, skrev Paul Nasrat:
On Thu, 2006-04-13 at 00:20 +0200, David Nielsen wrote:
We already have some components to work on:
Contacts: http://chrislord.net/blog/Software/Contacts/
Dates: http://chrislord.net/blog/Software/Dates/
TinyMail: https://svn.cronos.be/svn/tinymail/trunk/
Hopefully that opens for the possibility of replacing Evolution down the road.
Can I suggest you (or someone else who cares) package these up for extras so we can test it out. It looks as if tinymail will require gunit first.
I started packaging these up, so far I've submitted contacts for review - the remaining programs have yet to make releases I think and my opinion sways against encouraging users running SVN/CVS snapshots.
Don't laugh to hard please, my very first SPEC battle.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=188946
- David
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 18:58 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 09:11 -0400, Dimi Paun wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 07:42 -0400, Alan Cox wrote:
Evolution belongs in the bitbucket.
Alan,
This is pretty scary. Switching people off email clients like this is a big problem. People get really attached to their MUAs for lots of reasons, not in the least being that their mail archives can't be easily moved from client to client.
Guys, Red Hat has been pushing Evo for a _long_ time now. It has to stay behind their choices, not force millions of users to switch at a drop of a hat (pun intended :)).
This is a lot more serious than switching web browsers or other apps. Too many people will get affected, and rightfully pissed at RH. Silly excuses that you couldn't hire people to work on it will not fly.
I'm really surprised that folks at RH throw around such scenarios without thinking a bit about consequences. How can enterprises trust you with any technological guidance/decision when you are willing to do things that would cost them untold millions without even blinking?
You are over over-dramatizing. This is not a place for enterprises to get technology guidance and nobody's personal opinions here is going to cost anyone untold millions.
Rahul
He's not over-dramatizing anything, he's telling the truth. Evo occupies a slot now, and it's stupid to throw it in the bitbucket. Period.
LX
On Wed, 2006-12-27 at 04:10 -0500, Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 18:58 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 09:11 -0400, Dimi Paun wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 07:42 -0400, Alan Cox wrote:
Evolution belongs in the bitbucket.
Alan,
This is pretty scary. Switching people off email clients like this is a big problem. People get really attached to their MUAs for lots of reasons, not in the least being that their mail archives can't be easily moved from client to client.
Guys, Red Hat has been pushing Evo for a _long_ time now. It has to stay behind their choices, not force millions of users to switch at a drop of a hat (pun intended :)).
This is a lot more serious than switching web browsers or other apps. Too many people will get affected, and rightfully pissed at RH. Silly excuses that you couldn't hire people to work on it will not fly.
I'm really surprised that folks at RH throw around such scenarios without thinking a bit about consequences. How can enterprises trust you with any technological guidance/decision when you are willing to do things that would cost them untold millions without even blinking?
You are over over-dramatizing. This is not a place for enterprises to get technology guidance and nobody's personal opinions here is going to cost anyone untold millions.
Rahul
He's not over-dramatizing anything, he's telling the truth. Evo occupies a slot now, and it's stupid to throw it in the bitbucket. Period.
LX
Forget any other posts that I send in this thread, there was a date screwup on my system. Sorry about the confusion.
LX
On Wed, 2006-12-27 at 04:14 -0500, Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
On Wed, 2006-12-27 at 04:10 -0500, Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 18:58 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 09:11 -0400, Dimi Paun wrote:
On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 07:42 -0400, Alan Cox wrote:
Evolution belongs in the bitbucket.
Alan,
This is pretty scary. Switching people off email clients like this is a big problem. People get really attached to their MUAs for lots of reasons, not in the least being that their mail archives can't be easily moved from client to client.
Guys, Red Hat has been pushing Evo for a _long_ time now. It has to stay behind their choices, not force millions of users to switch at a drop of a hat (pun intended :)).
This is a lot more serious than switching web browsers or other apps. Too many people will get affected, and rightfully pissed at RH. Silly excuses that you couldn't hire people to work on it will not fly.
I'm really surprised that folks at RH throw around such scenarios without thinking a bit about consequences. How can enterprises trust you with any technological guidance/decision when you are willing to do things that would cost them untold millions without even blinking?
You are over over-dramatizing. This is not a place for enterprises to get technology guidance and nobody's personal opinions here is going to cost anyone untold millions.
Rahul
He's not over-dramatizing anything, he's telling the truth. Evo occupies a slot now, and it's stupid to throw it in the bitbucket. Period.
LX
Forget any other posts that I send in this thread, there was a date screwup on my system. Sorry about the confusion.
LX
Isn't Evolution sort of, kind of, maintained by our fair friends over at Novell/Suse ? Does that have anything to do with this "Death to Evo" thread?
The only over riding reason to _still_ use Evolution is to interface directly to a MS Exchange server.
I happen to use it out of habit, not because it's better/worse. I perceive the mail filtering rules to be easier to configure and more robust than Thunderbird, but that may be _MY_ perception.
Sean
Sean
ons, 27 12 2006 kl. 09:09 -0800, skrev Sean Bruno:
Isn't Evolution sort of, kind of, maintained by our fair friends over at Novell/Suse ? Does that have anything to do with this "Death to Evo" thread?
The only over riding reason to _still_ use Evolution is to interface directly to a MS Exchange server.
I happen to use it out of habit, not because it's better/worse. I perceive the mail filtering rules to be easier to configure and more robust than Thunderbird, but that may be _MY_ perception.
As much as I absolutely loath Evolution I tend to agree, the filtering and the way it displays threads seem much more natural than any other mailer I've tried. That doesn't stop the massive amount of unrelated suckage though, like the infamous #217567 wherein Evolution entirely refuses to send mail for no apparent reason or the many other quirks.
Evolution currently is the best of a lot of bad choices, it would be nice if somewhere down the line we could find a replacement, especially one that didn't come bundled with all this groupware functionality all in one app. A simple mailer which can inter-operate with something like Contacts and Dates to make a nicely separated PIM suite which shares information would be ideal in my mind. Anything else seems to be begging for disaster to me, complexity breeds the kind of madness Evolution has become.
- David Nielsen
On Wednesday 27 December 2006 11:20am, David Nielsen wrote:
ons, 27 12 2006 kl. 09:09 -0800, skrev Sean Bruno:
Isn't Evolution sort of, kind of, maintained by our fair friends over at Novell/Suse ? Does that have anything to do with this "Death to Evo" thread?
As I understood the state of things, all (or nearly all) of the developers who originally worked on Evolution (i.e., the Ximian guys) left it nearly 2 years ago. That was part of the problem, that Evolution was almost abandoned for a while and then some other people stepped up. I could be wrong about that, but that's what I remember hearing.
The only over riding reason to _still_ use Evolution is to interface directly to a MS Exchange server.
See below.
I happen to use it out of habit, not because it's better/worse. I perceive the mail filtering rules to be easier to configure and more robust than Thunderbird, but that may be _MY_ perception.
I think that's an excellent reason for choosing which of the apps for a given task to use. First, does it get t he job done and if not, is there an app then gets closer? Next, which app is the most comfortable for me. Personally, I like to get my work done. Familiarity with an app let's me work more quickly. I don't think about, "How do I do [something] with this app?" I just do it.
As much as I absolutely loath Evolution I tend to agree, the filtering and the way it displays threads seem much more natural than any other mailer I've tried. That doesn't stop the massive amount of unrelated suckage though, like the infamous #217567 wherein Evolution entirely refuses to send mail for no apparent reason or the many other quirks.
Evolution currently is the best of a lot of bad choices, it would be nice if somewhere down the line we could find a replacement, especially one that didn't come bundled with all this groupware functionality all in one app. A simple mailer which can inter-operate with something like Contacts and Dates to make a nicely separated PIM suite which shares information would be ideal in my mind. Anything else seems to be begging for disaster to me, complexity breeds the kind of madness Evolution has become.
Sounds like KMail, KAddressBook and kdepim to me.
Of course, you meant that "Evolution currently is the best of a lot of bad choices" for Gnome, right?
Oh, and BTW, these apps can integrate with all sorts of servers like Exchange, Groupwise, etc.
On Wed, December 27, 2006 1:20 pm, David Nielsen wrote:
mailer I've tried. That doesn't stop the massive amount of unrelated suckage though, like the infamous #217567 wherein Evolution entirely refuses to send mail for no apparent reason or the many other quirks.
Not to mention that after the latest set of updates, Evolution simply refuses to send any email that is not addressed to someone in my domain (lattica.com).
A mailer that refuses to send email is not very useful, is it? I can't be the only person hit by this, and yet people seem to just look the other way.
Anyway, the Composer in Evo is in many ways better than in other mailers, especially when dealing with code. For example, you can select a bit of the message so it is the only part that's quoted, you can easily mark part of the message as Preformatted to prevent it from wrapping lines, etc. These are very handy for people dealing with code reviews and so forth.
On Wednesday 27 December 2006 12:20, David Nielsen wrote:
Evolution currently is the best of a lot of bad choices, it would be nice if somewhere down the line we could find a replacement, especially one that didn't come bundled with all this groupware functionality all in one app. A simple mailer which can inter-operate with something like Contacts and Dates to make a nicely separated PIM suite which shares information would be ideal in my mind. Anything else seems to be begging for disaster to me, complexity breeds the kind of madness Evolution has become.
sounds like you want kdepim suite of apps they can be tied together using kontact or used separately
On Wed, 2006-12-27 at 09:09 -0800, Sean Bruno wrote:
Isn't Evolution sort of, kind of, maintained by our fair friends over at Novell/Suse ? Does that have anything to do with this "Death to Evo" thread?
The only over riding reason to _still_ use Evolution is to interface directly to a MS Exchange server.
I happen to use it out of habit, not because it's better/worse. I perceive the mail filtering rules to be easier to configure and more robust than Thunderbird, but that may be _MY_ perception.
No, you are exactly right. Evo was originally conceived to be a competitor for Outlook (otherwise known in some circles as Outhouse) and in fact it does an excellent job at that.
There were alot of bells and whistles added to get it to compare to Outlook, which basically had the effect of making Evo user friendly. That's because the overriding design consideration of Outlook is to cater to the user. (I am in no way an O-fan, but I have to deal with it for other people's sake).
Evo provides a user alternative in the linux world for Outlook, and gives people another reason to migrate to Linux. I've used it as a rail greaser many times, and it works.
It also blows away any excuses corporate pinheads might have for NOT integrating linux boxen into an Exchange network.
Sean
LX
On Wed, 2006-12-27 at 19:20 +0100, David Nielsen wrote:
ons, 27 12 2006 kl. 09:09 -0800, skrev Sean Bruno:
Isn't Evolution sort of, kind of, maintained by our fair friends over at Novell/Suse ? Does that have anything to do with this "Death to Evo" thread?
The only over riding reason to _still_ use Evolution is to interface directly to a MS Exchange server.
I happen to use it out of habit, not because it's better/worse. I perceive the mail filtering rules to be easier to configure and more robust than Thunderbird, but that may be _MY_ perception.
As much as I absolutely loath Evolution I tend to agree, the filtering and the way it displays threads seem much more natural than any other mailer I've tried. That doesn't stop the massive amount of unrelated suckage though, like the infamous #217567 wherein Evolution entirely refuses to send mail for no apparent reason or the many other quirks.
Evolution currently is the best of a lot of bad choices, it would be nice if somewhere down the line we could find a replacement, especially one that didn't come bundled with all this groupware functionality all in one app. A simple mailer which can inter-operate with something like Contacts and Dates to make a nicely separated PIM suite which shares information would be ideal in my mind. Anything else seems to be begging for disaster to me, complexity breeds the kind of madness Evolution has become.
- David Nielsen
Evo has it's problems, but currently it's indispensable. I don't agree that complexity necessarily has to involve madness; there are programs more complex than Evo that work just fine. The issue is simply just getting competent help to fix it. This thing of just dumping it and going to something else was lazy and shortsighted.
It's easier to protect your existing user base than it is to alienate and amputate them, then try to get them back.
LX
On Wed, Dec 27, 2006 at 02:05:20PM -0500, Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
It also blows away any excuses corporate pinheads might have for NOT integrating linux boxen into an Exchange network.
If it worked, sure. Since the migration to Exchange 2003 or whatever it is called, I never got any new mail, despite having Evolution set up to check every few minutes. I have to double click the Inbox folder. And even in half of those cases it will fail with a message like "Could not refresh folder". People ask me why I don't get email until hours later. Well, if only I had more time to baby-sit Evolution and double click the Inbox folder throughout the day.. and just don't get me started on how long it takes for Evolution at startup to check folders that haven't changed since last time.
I hope they kept the IMAP service up, because I am finally ditching the Outlook account. If you stick to IMAP, Evolution is almost sane in comparison, as if it were a totally different application. If the Exchange connector works the way I suspect it does (by scraping HTML pages from the Outlook web interface), I am not surprised at all by its flakiness.
ons, 27 12 2006 kl. 12:57 -0600, skrev Dennis Gilmore:
On Wednesday 27 December 2006 12:20, David Nielsen wrote:
Evolution currently is the best of a lot of bad choices, it would be nice if somewhere down the line we could find a replacement, especially one that didn't come bundled with all this groupware functionality all in one app. A simple mailer which can inter-operate with something like Contacts and Dates to make a nicely separated PIM suite which shares information would be ideal in my mind. Anything else seems to be begging for disaster to me, complexity breeds the kind of madness Evolution has become.
sounds like you want kdepim suite of apps they can be tied together using kontact or used separately
I have used KDEs PIM suite in the past and it just feels wrong to me and it looks out of place on my GNOME desktop. I can't get it to fit with my natural workflow, call me strange but I like the GNOME way of doing things. I'm sure it's fine if you are used to KDE though, I just haven't used KDE as my desktop in a number of years. Besides installing half of KDE for a mailer seems a bit silly when basically Evolution is fine for my needs, despite its flaws.
The PIM framework they are working on for KDE4 looks very interesting though, I'll be interested in seeing how that pans out for them.
- David
Dimi Paun wrote:
Anyway, the Composer in Evo is in many ways better than in other mailers, especially when dealing with code. For example, you can select a bit of the message so it is the only part that's quoted, you can easily mark part of the message as Preformatted to prevent it from wrapping lines, etc. These are very handy for people dealing with code reviews and so forth.
Hm, actually, the composer, to me, seemed like one of the worst Evo components. I don't use HTML formatting too often, but on those rare occasions when I do, Evo had pretty nasty formatting issues.
Anyway, I've been using Evo since... I don't know, maybe version 0.1 :-) and recently, when upgrading to FC6, I just couldn't take it anymore and switched to Thunderbird. Now I can use the same mail client on any OS, but that's not the point.
The point is, Thunderbird is orders of magnitude faster than Evo. I am not exaggerating. I have a couple IMAP accounts on two Cyrus IMAPd servers that I use concurrently, each one with perhaps around 100 folders or so, with server-side filtering (Sieve rocks!), probably up to 100k messages in each account, I would say several GB total. Depending on where I am located physically, at most one account or the other is "local", the other (or both) is via OpenVPN over broadband. (*) In these conditions, Evo takes ages to "boot up". I could literally fire it up then go and make a cup of tea before it finishes reading all those folders. And it's not the VPN that's slowing it down, even the local account is very slow to open. Thunderbird, OTOH, takes a couple seconds.
The decision to switch was a no-brainer.
The Evo team need to get their act together really quick. Their software currently is a mess.
(*) - Cyrus IMAPd with Sieve server-side filtering, plus OpenVPN and Thunderbird is an absolutely amazing combination. No matter where I am, no matter what OS I am using, my email looks and behaves exactly the same. Throw a Squirrelmail or a Roundcube in, for good measure, and I can read my email even when all I have is a browser. Add a Google Browser Sync extension and my Firefox browser, too, can look and behave exactly the same everywhere and on any OS. Offtopic, but I just had to say it. :-)
On Wed, December 27, 2006 8:45 pm, Florin Andrei wrote:
Hm, actually, the composer, to me, seemed like one of the worst Evo components. I don't use HTML formatting too often, but on those rare occasions when I do, Evo had pretty nasty formatting issues.
Hmm. maybe so, but I never use it in HTML mail, so I can't really comment on that. For plain text, it's pretty good.
Anyway, I've been using Evo since... I don't know, maybe version 0.1 :-) and recently, when upgrading to FC6, I just couldn't take it anymore and switched to Thunderbird.
It's great you could do that. I tried, believe me! (I've updated to FC6 months ago, and I still can't send email!!! HTF is this an acceptable situation is beyond me, but people seem generally unconcerned about it)
However, there are a couple of things that make Thunderbird not useful to me (due to the fact that I need to use it to comment on code): 1. The ability to select the portion that you want to reply to. For large patches, this is priceless, I don't want to have a huge reply that I have to trim to a few relevant lines. 2. More importantly, I need to be able to disable line wrapping, which doesn't seem possible in Thunderbird.
Regardless, I'm sure a lot of folks will find it hard to switch from Evo willy-nilly. RH needs to get its act together and fix this situation before RHEL5.
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 00:20:10 -0500 (EST) "Dimi Paun" dimi@lattica.com wrote:
However, there are a couple of things that make Thunderbird not useful to me (due to the fact that I need to use it to comment on code):
- The ability to select the portion that you want to reply to. For large patches, this is priceless, I don't want to have a huge reply that I have to trim to a few relevant lines.
- More importantly, I need to be able to disable line wrapping, which doesn't seem possible in Thunderbird.
3. It only allows the user to set an automatic "Bcc" on composed messages, not a "Cc".
For me, "3" was the reason to stick with Evo for so long.
Haven't had too much trouble sending mail with Evo, but checking new mail is not always working (I only have IMAP folders) and it frequently hangs when I try to close it. This happens so often that I aliased "killev='evolution --force-shutdown'" :-/
Right now, I'm writing this from Sylpheed-Claws (Claws-Mail in development), which has improved a lot since I tried it last. It does not have the three limitations mentioned above, and the default composer has a very nice ruler at the top so I can always see how long my lines are :-)
It doesn't compose HTML, but there is a plugin to view HTML.
Cheers, Steven
I don't know where this thread began, but note that Evolution *IS* moving to Extras...
along with everything else in Core.
Then Extras will be renamed.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Schedule/MergeCoreAndExtras
Warren Togami wtogami@redhat.com
Isn't Evolution sort of, kind of, maintained by our fair friends over at Novell/Suse ? Does that have anything to do with this "Death to Evo" thread?
The only over riding reason to _still_ use Evolution is to interface directly to a MS Exchange server.
I happen to use it out of habit, not because it's better/worse. I perceive the mail filtering rules to be easier to configure and more robust than Thunderbird, but that may be _MY_ perception.
As much as I absolutely loath Evolution I tend to agree, the filtering and the way it displays threads seem much more natural than any other mailer I've tried. That doesn't stop the massive amount of unrelated suckage though, like the infamous #217567 wherein Evolution entirely refuses to send mail for no apparent reason or the many other quirks.
Evolution currently is the best of a lot of bad choices, it would be nice if somewhere down the line we could find a replacement, especially one that didn't come bundled with all this groupware functionality all in one app. A simple mailer which can inter-operate with something like Contacts and Dates to make a nicely separated PIM suite which shares information would be ideal in my mind. Anything else seems to be begging for disaster to me, complexity breeds the kind of madness Evolution has become.
Well the tinymail framework is sort of on the way to this. I think evo would be an improved beast if the evo team would start integrated a lot of the work the guys at openedhand have done like some of the memory improvements, the conversion from ORBit to dbus etc. At the moment I think there are 3+ branches of evo code so it would be nice to see some of that merged to actually see what the state of play with evo is.
Peter
It also blows away any excuses corporate pinheads might have for NOT integrating linux boxen into an Exchange network.
If it worked, sure. Since the migration to Exchange 2003 or whatever it is called, I never got any new mail, despite having Evolution set up to check every few minutes. I have to double click the Inbox folder. And even in half of those cases it will fail with a message like "Could not refresh folder". People ask me why I don't get email until hours later. Well, if only I had more time to baby-sit Evolution and double click the Inbox folder throughout the day.. and just don't get me started on how long it takes for Evolution at startup to check folders that haven't changed since last time.
While the evo-exchange does randomly crash (mostly while doing lookups for contacts on the server) I find it reasonable stable for mail and calendar on exchange 2003.
I hope they kept the IMAP service up, because I am finally ditching the Outlook account. If you stick to IMAP, Evolution is almost sane in comparison, as if it were a totally different application. If the Exchange connector works the way I suspect it does (by scraping HTML pages from the Outlook web interface), I am not surprised at all by its flakiness.
-- Rudi
-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Dimi Paun wrote:
On Wed, December 27, 2006 8:45 pm, Florin Andrei wrote:
Hm, actually, the composer, to me, seemed like one of the worst Evo components. I don't use HTML formatting too often, but on those rare occasions when I do, Evo had pretty nasty formatting issues.
Hmm. maybe so, but I never use it in HTML mail, so I can't really comment on that. For plain text, it's pretty good.
Anyway, I've been using Evo since... I don't know, maybe version 0.1 :-) and recently, when upgrading to FC6, I just couldn't take it anymore and switched to Thunderbird.
It's great you could do that. I tried, believe me! (I've updated to FC6 months ago, and I still can't send email!!! HTF is this an acceptable situation is beyond me, but people seem generally unconcerned about it)
Maybe that's because people are able to do it generally.
Rahul
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 00:20 -0500, Dimi Paun wrote:
It's great you could do that. I tried, believe me! (I've updated to FC6 months ago, and I still can't send email!!! HTF is this an acceptable situation is beyond me, but people seem generally unconcerned about it)
Have you confirmed other people have this problem? Evolution is sending email fine for me under FC6. What error do you receive when you try and send?
Cheers, Ben
Ben Stringer ===== ben@burbong.com ==================================
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 11:10 +0000, Peter Robinson wrote:
It also blows away any excuses corporate pinheads might have for NOT integrating linux boxen into an Exchange network.
If it worked, sure. Since the migration to Exchange 2003 or whatever it is called, I never got any new mail, despite having Evolution set up to check every few minutes. I have to double click the Inbox folder. And even in half of those cases it will fail with a message like "Could not refresh folder". People ask me why I don't get email until hours later. Well, if only I had more time to baby-sit Evolution and double click the Inbox folder throughout the day.. and just don't get me started on how long it takes for Evolution at startup to check folders that haven't changed since last time.
While the evo-exchange does randomly crash (mostly while doing lookups for contacts on the server) I find it reasonable stable for mail and calendar on exchange 2003.
This is my experience as well.
--LX
* Florin Andrei (2006-12-27 17:45 -0800) said: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dimi Paun wrote:
Anyway, the Composer in Evo is in many ways better than in other mailers, especially when dealing with code. For example, you can select a bit of the message so it is the only part that's quoted, you can easily mark part of the message as Preformatted to prevent it from wrapping lines, etc. These are very handy for people dealing with code reviews and so forth.
Hm, actually, the composer, to me, seemed like one of the worst Evo components. I don't use HTML formatting too often, but on those rare occasions when I do, Evo had pretty nasty formatting issues.
Anyway, I've been using Evo since... I don't know, maybe version 0.1 :-) and recently, when upgrading to FC6, I just couldn't take it anymore and switched to Thunderbird. Now I can use the same mail client on any OS, but that's not the point.
The point is, Thunderbird is orders of magnitude faster than Evo. I am not exaggerating. I have a couple IMAP accounts on two Cyrus IMAPd servers that I use concurrently, each one with perhaps around 100 folders or so, with server-side filtering (Sieve rocks!), probably up to 100k messages in each account, I would say several GB total. Depending on where I am located physically, at most one account or the other is "local", the other (or both) is via OpenVPN over broadband. (*) In these conditions, Evo takes ages to "boot up". I could literally fire it up then go and make a cup of tea before it finishes reading all those folders. And it's not the VPN that's slowing it down, even the local account is very slow to open. Thunderbird, OTOH, takes a couple seconds.
The decision to switch was a no-brainer.
The Evo team need to get their act together really quick. Their software currently is a mess.
100% agreed.
Evolution is useless for most users now. Not much has changed in the past few years. I used to keep it around but since I upgrade to Fedora 6, I have removed it completely.
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 13:48 +0000, Leo wrote:
Evolution is useless for most users now.
I think that you over-generalize. I find it quite useful. I'm sure that there are many other people that find it useful. Sure it has a few warts, but name me a piece of software that doesn't.
Not much has changed in the past few years.
I disagree.
I used to keep it around but since I upgrade to Fedora 6, I have removed it completely.
That's the beauty of open source, if you don't like it, use something else.
Jeff
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 08:17 -0500, Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
While the evo-exchange does randomly crash (mostly while doing lookups for contacts on the server) I find it reasonable stable for mail and calendar on exchange 2003.
This is my experience as well.
Here too... I use it daily to access my Exchange 2003 email and calendar.
Jeff
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 13:48 +0000, Leo wrote:
- Florin Andrei (2006-12-27 17:45 -0800) said:
100% agreed.
Evolution is useless for most users now. Not much has changed in the past few years. I used to keep it around but since I upgrade to Fedora 6, I have removed it completely.
--
"Most" people? Do you have hard number to back these bold statement? Or are you just using TEST_GROUP == ( Florin Andrei)?
- Gilboa
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 13:48 +0000, Leo wrote:
Evolution is useless for most users now.
Do you have data to support your claim?
On Fedora-devel, Evolution is responsible for 78% of the emails. The next closest is Sylpheed with 9%
[saikat@sniper ~]$ grep -h '^X-Mailer' .mail/.Lists.Fedora/cur -r | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n 1 Claws 1 Lotus 1 OpenWebMail 1 PHP/4.3.9 1 phpmailer 2 Apple 2 Balsa 2 Mew 2 SquirrelMail/1.4.3a 2 WWW-Mail 3 eMail 4 http://www.courier-mta.org/cone/ 4 SnapperMail 4 Ximian 6 QUALCOMM 11 VM 15 SquirrelMail 19 MH-E 20 Microsoft 32 Sylpheed 40 Sylpheed-Claws 619 Evolution
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 10:09 -0500, Saikat Guha wrote:
On Fedora-devel, Evolution is responsible for 78% of the emails. The next closest is Sylpheed with 9%
Correction. I didn't test for the User-Agent header. Out of 2075 mails,
Evolution 29.8313% Thunderbird 21.3976% Mutt 18.8916% KMail 8.8675% Mozilla 5.4940% SquirrelMail 2.2651%
----
[saikat@sniper ~]$ grep -h '^(X-Mailer|User-Agent )' .mail/.Lists.Fedora/cur -r | tr '/' ' ' | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr 619 Evolution 444 Thunderbird 392 Mutt 184 KMail 114 Mozilla 47 SquirrelMail 40 Sylpheed-Claws 39 Loom 32 Sylpheed 32 Gnus 27 KNode 20 Microsoft 19 MH-E 11 VM 8 mutt-ng 6 QUALCOMM 6 Pan 4 Ximian 4 SnapperMail 4 http: 3 %p!0,0! 3 Internet 3 eMail 2 WWW-Mail 2 Mew 2 Balsa 2 Apple 1 phpmailer 1 PHP 1 OpenWebMail 1 Microsoft-Entourage 1 Lotus 1 Claws
On Thu, Dec 28, 2006 at 10:09:52AM -0500, Saikat Guha wrote:
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 13:48 +0000, Leo wrote:
Evolution is useless for most users now.
On Fedora-devel, Evolution is responsible for 78% of the emails. The next closest is Sylpheed with 9%
Not all mailer use X-Mailer. Others use User-Agent. With the following: grep -h '^(User-Agent|X-Mailer)' fedora-devel-list -r | awk '{print $2}' | sed 's;/.*;;' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n
I get (for the mail saved in my fedora-devel-list mailbox, which may be biased):
1 AT&T 1 Mulberry 1 Null 1 SnapperMail 1 Wanderlust 2 Apple 2 http: 2 %p!0,0! 2 Pan 4 Loom 5 Balsa 5 Internet 7 VM 8 MH-E 10 Mail 16 KNode 16 Mew 20 SquirrelMail 23 Sylpheed-Claws 32 Gnus 43 Sylpheed 49 KMail 91 Ximian 134 Mozilla 148 Thunderbird 295 Mutt 330 Evolution
There still seems to be about 200 mails not counted. Evolution is still first, but with a lower share. Maybe Ximian is also evolution, though. This is not very relevant, though, since mutt is second, this is certainly biased numbers.
-- Pat
Warren Togami wrote:
I don't know where this thread began, but note that Evolution *IS* moving to Extras...
along with everything else in Core.
Then Extras will be renamed.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Schedule/MergeCoreAndExtras
BTW, what about upcoming EPEL in this context?
"Core + Extras(FC-N branches)" => "some common stuff", "Extras(EPEL-N branches)" => ???
Dmitry Butskoy
On Thu, December 28, 2006 8:14 am, Ben Stringer wrote:
Have you confirmed other people have this problem? Evolution is sending email fine for me under FC6. What error do you receive when you try and send?
Well, I filed a bug at the beginning at the month: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=383618
Nobody even looked at it. I have a fairly standard configuration: postfix as the server + SMTP over SSL + user authentication.
It worked just fine until I've upgraded to FC6. It also works with other mailers (like Thunderbird, Claws, etc).
I can't see what I have so special that the darn thing decided to not work. And after it refuses to send email, you can't close it, etc -- a symptom reported by lots of folks.
Sad.
Dimi Paun wrote:
On Thu, December 28, 2006 8:14 am, Ben Stringer wrote:
Have you confirmed other people have this problem? Evolution is sending email fine for me under FC6. What error do you receive when you try and send?
Well, I filed a bug at the beginning at the month: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=383618
Nobody even looked at it. I have a fairly standard configuration: postfix as the server + SMTP over SSL + user authentication.
It worked just fine until I've upgraded to FC6. It also works with other mailers (like Thunderbird, Claws, etc).
I can't see what I have so special that the darn thing decided to not work. And after it refuses to send email, you can't close it, etc -- a symptom reported by lots of folks.
Yup, exact same thing here. I use evo to access my work mail with IMAPS. Sending usually works right after evo starts, but eventually it'll stop working. Reading mail still work, but trying to close the app causes it to hang. Some sort of network connection timeout not being handled right. It's also a FC-6 regression for me, FC-5 had no problems.
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 17:31 +0100, Denis Leroy wrote:
Dimi Paun wrote: Yup, exact same thing here. I use evo to access my work mail with IMAPS. Sending usually works right after evo starts, but eventually it'll stop working. Reading mail still work, but trying to close the app causes it to hang. Some sort of network connection timeout not being handled right. It's also a FC-6 regression for me, FC-5 had no problems.
Identical behavior here as well. FC6 Evo has made the Gnome "Force Quit" panel applet a must have.
Brian
Em Qui, 2006-12-28 às 09:09 -0800, Brian Gaynor escreveu:
Yup, exact same thing here. I use evo to access my work mail with IMAPS.
Identical behavior here as well. FC6 Evo has made the Gnome "Force Quit" panel applet a must have.
I have Evolution on FC6 connecting to IMAPS for reading and SMTP+TLS for sending, and it works flawlessly. Nothing hangs, never loses any msgs, and the boxes update pretty fast.
At 09:20 PM 12/27/2006, Dimi Paun wrote:
However, there are a couple of things that make Thunderbird not useful to me (due to the fact that I need to use it to comment on code):
- The ability to select the portion that you want to reply to.
Personally, this is one of the most annoying feature added to Evolution. When I read my email, I habitually highlight words, indicating where I was reading. When I'm done reading, I hit reply, and gosh, I got some incomplete words in the email body. So, I have to repeatedly cancel the reply message window, highlight some text, then it will proceed to the next stage of highlighting the whole line, then I could remove the highlight in such a way that the reply message body is complete, not empty. If there is an option to optionally disable this feature, I would then not be annoyed so much.
(I apologize if my expression is a bit too strong somehow...)
For large patches, this is priceless, I don't want to have a huge reply that I have to trim to a few relevant lines.
* Gilboa Davara (2006-12-28 17:03 +0200) said: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 13:48 +0000, Leo wrote:
- Florin Andrei (2006-12-27 17:45 -0800) said:
100% agreed.
Evolution is useless for most users now. Not much has changed in the past few years. I used to keep it around but since I upgrade to Fedora 6, I have removed it completely.
--
"Most" people?
Do you have hard number to back these bold statement? Or are you just using TEST_GROUP == ( Florin Andrei)?
There are many polls on the Internet. For example one done by Mozilla, http://www.mozillazine.org/poll_results.html?id=7542.
Dmitry Butskoy wrote:
Warren Togami wrote:
I don't know where this thread began, but note that Evolution *IS* moving to Extras...
along with everything else in Core.
Then Extras will be renamed.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Schedule/MergeCoreAndExtras
BTW, what about upcoming EPEL in this context?
"Core + Extras(FC-N branches)" => "some common stuff", "Extras(EPEL-N branches)" => ???
RHEL's contents have nothing to do with Fedora's contents and vice versa.
Warren Togami wtogami@redhat.com
* Saikat Guha (2006-12-28 10:09 -0500) said: ^^^^^^^^^^^
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 13:48 +0000, Leo wrote:
Evolution is useless for most users now.
Do you have data to support your claim?
On Fedora-devel, Evolution is responsible for 78% of the emails. The next closest is Sylpheed with 9%
[saikat@sniper ~]$ grep -h '^X-Mailer' .mail/.Lists.Fedora/cur -r | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n 1 Claws 1 Lotus 1 OpenWebMail 1 PHP/4.3.9 1 phpmailer 2 Apple 2 Balsa 2 Mew 2 SquirrelMail/1.4.3a 2 WWW-Mail 3 eMail 4 http://www.courier-mta.org/cone/ 4 SnapperMail 4 Ximian 6 QUALCOMM 11 VM 15 SquirrelMail 19 MH-E 20 Microsoft 32 Sylpheed 40 Sylpheed-Claws 619 Evolution
No surprise to see such result. I guess most users visiting this group are using Fedora system and evolution is the default email client.
* Saikat Guha (2006-12-28 10:21 -0500) said: ^^^^^^^^^^^
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 10:09 -0500, Saikat Guha wrote:
On Fedora-devel, Evolution is responsible for 78% of the emails. The next closest is Sylpheed with 9%
Correction. I didn't test for the User-Agent header. Out of 2075 mails,
Evolution 29.8313% Thunderbird 21.3976% Mutt 18.8916% KMail 8.8675% Mozilla 5.4940% SquirrelMail 2.2651%
Thank you for verifying my claim.
The only reason Evolution has a slight edge over other email clients is the fact that it is the default email client installed and even put on gnome panel. If we stop doing this, I expect the percentage of Evolution to drop sharply.
On Thu, Dec 28, 2006 at 07:38:39PM -0500, Warren Togami wrote:
RHEL's contents have nothing to do with Fedora's contents and vice versa.
Could we get rid of
tog-pegasus.i386 2:2.5.2-2.fc6 core Matched from: tog-pegasus OpenPegasus WBEM Services for Linux OpenPegasus WBEM Services for Linux enables management solutions that deliver increased control of enterprise resources. WBEM is a platform and resource independent DMTF standard that defines a common information model and communication protocol for monitoring and controlling resources from diverse sources. http://www.openpegasus.org
in core, then :)
(I have yet to find anyone find a use for it, and am under the impression it's some sort of middleware that some Enterprise Software from Enterprise Vendors (tm) uses and then it might do something semi-useful)
* Daniel Yek (2006-12-28 16:37 -0800) said: ^^^^^^^^^^
Personally, this is one of the most annoying feature added to Evolution. When I read my email, I habitually highlight words, indicating where I was reading. When I'm done reading, I hit reply, and gosh, I got some incomplete words in the email body. So, I have to repeatedly cancel the reply message window, highlight some text, then it will proceed to the next stage of highlighting the whole line, then I could remove the highlight in such a way that the reply message body is complete, not empty. If there is an option to optionally disable this feature, I would then not be annoyed so much.
It is a nice feature compared to append the whole original message like outlook does. Anyway, it is a personal preference.
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 13:48:17 +0000, Leo wrote:
Evolution is useless for most users now. Not much has changed in the past few years. I used to keep it around but since I upgrade to Fedora 6, I have removed it completely.
Did you remove the annoying evolution-data-server completely as well in FC6? It seems that the following important apps depend on it.
,---- | Dependencies Resolved | | ============================================================================= | Package Arch Version Repository Size | ============================================================================= | Removing: | evolution-data-server i386 1.8.2-1.fc6 installed 9.8 M | Removing for dependencies: | NetworkManager-gnome i386 1:0.6.4-5.fc6 installed 393 k | beagle i386 0.2.13-1.fc6 installed 3.3 M | beagle-gui i386 0.2.13-1.fc6 installed 469 k | bug-buddy i386 1:2.16.0-3.fc6 installed 1.6 M | compiz i386 0.0.13-0.32.20060817git.fc6 installed 1.9 M | control-center i386 1:2.16.0-11.fc6 installed 8.1 M | evolution-data-server-devel i386 1.8.2-1.fc6 installed 3.5 M | gaim i386 2:2.0.0-0.26.beta5.fc6 installed 17 M | gnome-applets i386 1:2.16.0.1-12.fc6 installed 32 M | gnome-netstatus i386 2.12.0-5.1 installed 971 k | gnome-panel i386 2.16.1-3.fc6 installed 10 M | gnome-pilot i386 2.0.15-1.fc6 installed 1.9 M | gnome-python2-applet i386 2.16.0-1.fc6 installed 16 k | gnome-session i386 2.16.0-7.fc6 installed 1.3 M | gnome-sharp i386 2.16.0-1.fc6 installed 1.7 M | gnome-utils i386 1:2.16.0-1.fc6 installed 8.5 M | gnome-volume-manager i386 2.15.0-4.fc6 installed 1.9 M | libgail-gnome i386 1.1.3-1.2.1 installed 60 k | nautilus-sendto i386 0.7-5.fc6 installed 174 k | nautilus-sendto-bluetooth i386 0.7-5.fc6 installed 8.6 k | orca i386 1.0.0-4.fc6 installed 3.4 M | tomboy i386 0.4.1-1.fc6 installed 1.7 M `----
* Peter Wu (2006-12-28 20:23 -0500) said: ^^^^^^^^
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 13:48:17 +0000, Leo wrote:
Evolution is useless for most users now. Not much has changed in the past few years. I used to keep it around but since I upgrade to Fedora 6, I have removed it completely.
Did you remove the annoying evolution-data-server completely as well in FC6? It seems that the following important apps depend on it.
No.
evolution-data-server is just a dependence happen to have "evolution" in it. I remember there is one article in "desktop-devel-list@gnome.org" explaining this.
On Fri, 2006-12-29 at 00:37 +0000, Leo wrote:
- Gilboa Davara (2006-12-28 17:03 +0200) said: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 13:48 +0000, Leo wrote:
- Florin Andrei (2006-12-27 17:45 -0800) said:
100% agreed.
Evolution is useless for most users now. Not much has changed in the past few years. I used to keep it around but since I upgrade to Fedora 6, I have removed it completely.
--
"Most" people?
Do you have hard number to back these bold statement? Or are you just using TEST_GROUP == ( Florin Andrei)?
There are many polls on the Internet. For example one done by Mozilla, http://www.mozillazine.org/poll_results.html?id=7542.
-- Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com> (GPG Key: 9283AA3F)
This pole is irrelevant as the test group consists of non Fedora/Linux users. More-ever having this pole in... Mozillazine makes it less, err, objective.
The OP made a bold statement about *Fedora* users. I would have been nice if he took the time to back it up with solid numbers.
BTW, once Thunderbird / Lightning get OpenSync/Pilot support, I'll be the first one to dump Evo. Until such time (and as long as KMail remains a usability nightmare [and this from an avid KDE user...]), leave Evolution be.
- Gilboa
- Saikat Guha (2006-12-28 10:21 -0500) said: ^^^^^^^^^^^
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 10:09 -0500, Saikat Guha wrote:
On Fedora-devel, Evolution is responsible for 78% of the emails. The next closest is Sylpheed with 9%
Correction. I didn't test for the User-Agent header. Out of 2075 mails,
Evolution 29.8313% Thunderbird 21.3976% Mutt 18.8916% KMail 8.8675% Mozilla 5.4940% SquirrelMail 2.2651%
Thank you for verifying my claim.
The only reason Evolution has a slight edge over other email clients is the fact that it is the default email client installed and even put on gnome panel. If we stop doing this, I expect the percentage of Evolution to drop sharply.
I disagree entirely. If the mailing-list was something like fedora users or a newbies list that would be quite likely but on fedora-devel people should know how to select their own mail client, whether it be in core or extras, and be generally able to make up their own mind.
For the general population I think evo is fine, it is without doubt that it definitely needs help on edge cases and some stability stuff but I think that if the evo team would merge some of the branches out there we'd fix the majority of the problems and see a great improvement.
Peter
Pekka Pietikainen wrote:
On Thu, Dec 28, 2006 at 07:38:39PM -0500, Warren Togami wrote:
RHEL's contents have nothing to do with Fedora's contents and vice versa.
Could we get rid of
tog-pegasus.i386 2:2.5.2-2.fc6 core Matched from: tog-pegasus OpenPegasus WBEM Services for Linux OpenPegasus WBEM Services for Linux enables management solutions that deliver increased control of enterprise resources. WBEM is a platform and resource independent DMTF standard that defines a common information model and communication protocol for monitoring and controlling resources from diverse sources. http://www.openpegasus.org
in core, then :)
You want to move it to extras I suppose. Since the plan is to merge them anyway, it is not useful to talk about movement of packages at this stage.
Rahul
Since Core and Extras are to be merged. I have changed the subject.
* Gilboa Davara (2006-12-29 09:36 +0200) said: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The OP made a bold statement about *Fedora* users. I would have been nice if he took the time to back it up with solid numbers.
What kind of number do you need?
Evolution may be useful for users need to sync with PDA or connect to an EXCHANGE server. But that is a very small portion. Being bloated, slow and memory hog, evolution is useless. There are other MUAs doing a better job in almost all things.
BTW, once Thunderbird / Lightning get OpenSync/Pilot support, I'll be the first one to dump Evo. Until such time (and as long as KMail remains a usability nightmare [and this from an avid KDE user...]), leave Evolution be.
So there is no point making it a default mailer.
On Fri, 2006-12-29 at 17:22 +0000, Leo wrote:
Since Core and Extras are to be merged. I have changed the subject.
- Gilboa Davara (2006-12-29 09:36 +0200) said: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The OP made a bold statement about *Fedora* users. I would have been nice if he took the time to back it up with solid numbers.
What kind of number do you need?
Evolution may be useful for users need to sync with PDA or connect to an EXCHANGE server. But that is a very small portion. Being bloated, slow and memory hog, evolution is useless. There are other MUAs doing a better job in almost all things.
BTW, once Thunderbird / Lightning get OpenSync/Pilot support, I'll be the first one to dump Evo. Until such time (and as long as KMail remains a usability nightmare [and this from an avid KDE user...]), leave Evolution be.
So there is no point making it a default mailer.
-- Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com> (GPG Key: 9283AA3F)
You are flat wrong. I use it in two environments and it works. I know others that get good use out of Evo, even with the Evo demonizers hard at work on this list. BTW the man asked you for proof and you provided none.
If you value your user base, you don't pull a valuable plug like Evo out of the chain. It's stupid. That would be like Micro$haft nixing Outlook, which would not make sense to them cause they have a userbase on it. Just as stupid to do it here cause, like there, it would alienate a solid user base. (That might be what you want, since that is what you are suggesting.)
Not that some developers are overly worried about that. But there are a few of us that actually are worried about Fedora within the context of Ubuntu and generally more successful distributions. The concerns continue to be valid as long as some developers continue on a socialist bend.
--LX
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 08:48 -0600, Jeffrey C. Ollie wrote:
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 13:48 +0000, Leo wrote:
Evolution is useless for most users now.
I think that you over-generalize. I find it quite useful. I'm sure that there are many other people that find it useful. Sure it has a few warts, but name me a piece of software that doesn't.
Not much has changed in the past few years.
I disagree.
I used to keep it around but since I upgrade to Fedora 6, I have removed it completely.
That's the beauty of open source, if you don't like it, use something else.
Jeff
Right now Evo has no competition for the functions that it offers. The problem with the open source world (and the free world in general) is that it's possible for a few narcissistic trolls to ruin functionality for the user population at large. Sometimes it's by stupidity, sometimes it's by design. There is a sizable group out there that doesn't want an Outlook competitor in the Linux world, cause it eats too much M$ lunch.
--LX
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 10:09 -0500, Saikat Guha wrote:
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 13:48 +0000, Leo wrote:
Evolution is useless for most users now.
Do you have data to support your claim?
On Fedora-devel, Evolution is responsible for 78% of the emails.
And that, my friend, is *exactly* why someone would NOT want Evo around in the Linux world.
Think on this while you watch your back.
--LX
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 16:28 +0100, Patrice Dumas wrote:
On Thu, Dec 28, 2006 at 10:09:52AM -0500, Saikat Guha wrote:
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 13:48 +0000, Leo wrote:
Evolution is useless for most users now.
On Fedora-devel, Evolution is responsible for 78% of the emails. The next closest is Sylpheed with 9%
Not all mailer use X-Mailer. Others use User-Agent. With the following: grep -h '^(User-Agent|X-Mailer)' fedora-devel-list -r | awk '{print $2}' | sed 's;/.*;;' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n
I get (for the mail saved in my fedora-devel-list mailbox, which may be biased):
1 AT&T 1 Mulberry 1 Null 1 SnapperMail 1 Wanderlust 2 Apple 2 http: 2 %p!0,0! 2 Pan 4 Loom 5 Balsa 5 Internet 7 VM 8 MH-E 10 Mail 16 KNode 16 Mew 20 SquirrelMail 23 Sylpheed-Claws 32 Gnus 43 Sylpheed 49 KMail 91 Ximian 134 Mozilla 148 Thunderbird 295 Mutt 330 EvolutionThere still seems to be about 200 mails not counted. Evolution is still first, but with a lower share. Maybe Ximian is also evolution, though. This is not very relevant, though, since mutt is second, this is certainly biased numbers.
Yes, since we are probably not considering a majority of users that used Evo to get integrated into M$ networks, thus encroaching into M$ territory. Even taking your statements above into consideration, I did a check on the kernel mailing list; Evo was number two right behind Mutt.
--LX
* Lyvim Xaphir (2006-12-29 12:41 -0500) said: ^^^^^^^^^^^^
On Fri, 2006-12-29 at 17:22 +0000, Leo wrote:
Since Core and Extras are to be merged. I have changed the subject.
- Gilboa Davara (2006-12-29 09:36 +0200) said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The OP made a bold statement about *Fedora* users. I would have been nice if he took the time to back it up with solid numbers.
What kind of number do you need?
Evolution may be useful for users need to sync with PDA or connect to an EXCHANGE server. But that is a very small portion. Being bloated, slow and memory hog, evolution is useless. There are other MUAs doing a better job in almost all things.
BTW, once Thunderbird / Lightning get OpenSync/Pilot support, I'll be the first one to dump Evo. Until such time (and as long as KMail remains a usability nightmare [and this from an avid KDE user...]), leave Evolution be.
So there is no point making it a default mailer.
-- Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com> (GPG Key: 9283AA3F)
You are flat wrong. I use it in two environments and it works. I know others that get good use out of Evo, even with the Evo demonizers hard at work on this list.
Can't that be achieved using other mailer?
BTW the man asked you for proof and you provided none.
Have you not read What Saikat Guha wrote in http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel/46845?
Gmane has a very comprehensive stats. It's a bit dated. I will ask the team to update that page if possible. See: http://gmane.org/user-agents.php
If you value your user base, you don't pull a valuable plug like Evo out of the chain. It's stupid. That would be like Micro$haft nixing Outlook, which would not make sense to them cause they have a userbase on it. Just as stupid to do it here cause, like there, it would alienate a solid user base.
Your argument would be convincing if we are talking about removing Evolution from the distro.
(That might be what you want, since that is what you are suggesting.)
No.
There being equally popular mailer indicates a sensible solution not making Evolution the default mailer.
Not that some developers are overly worried about that. But there are a few of us that actually are worried about Fedora within the context of Ubuntu and generally more successful distributions. The concerns continue to be valid as long as some developers continue on a socialist bend.
That lies in making a reasonably popular collection of apps that work out of box.
On Fri, 2006-12-29 at 18:30 +0000, Leo wrote:
Gmane has a very comprehensive stats. It's a bit dated. I will ask the team to update that page if possible. See: http://gmane.org/user-agents.php
Oh for christ sakes can we stop with the numbers and statistics crap? None of it means a goddamn thing.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8741712104711499419
Scream about how awful Evolution is all you want, no one's going to care unless you can offer an acceptable alternative.
On Fri, 2006-12-29 at 18:30 +0000, Leo wrote:
- Lyvim Xaphir (2006-12-29 12:41 -0500) said:
BTW the man asked you for proof and you provided none.
Have you not read What Saikat Guha wrote in http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel/46845?
I think you misread my response.
I was pointing out that Evolution is #1 on the fedora-devel list where one would expect to find people who can make an informed decision on which mailer to use.
As such you original claim that "Evolution is useless for most users" is completely baseless, sensationalist and imho, wrong.
* Saikat Guha (2006-12-29 15:50 -0500) said: ^^^^^^^^^^^ [...]
Have you not read What Saikat Guha wrote in http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel/46845?
I think you misread my response.
I was pointing out that Evolution is #1 on the fedora-devel list where one would expect to find people who can make an informed decision on which mailer to use.
Regarding the fact that Evolution has been in Redhat/Fedora since RH7 or maybe earlier and Thunderbird 1.0 was released at the end of 2004, that #1 does explain something in favor of my claim. *NB* I use neither Evolution nor Thunderbird.
As such you original claim that "Evolution is useless for most users" is completely baseless, sensationalist and imho, wrong.
......
On Fri, 2006-12-29 at 17:22 +0000, Leo wrote:
Since Core and Extras are to be merged. I have changed the subject.
- Gilboa Davara (2006-12-29 09:36 +0200) said: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The OP made a bold statement about *Fedora* users. I would have been nice if he took the time to back it up with solid numbers.
What kind of number do you need?
The only number that means jack sh*t is Fedora head count. I don't care about Windows users - no do I care about Slackware users (that dropped GNOME long ago). I can about Fedora users.
As such, the mailing list numbers seem to contradict your initial claim ("Evolution is useless for most users now. ") because as it stands, most of people reading your post, are doing it using Evolution.
Evolution may be useful for users need to sync with PDA or connect to an EXCHANGE server. But that is a very small portion.
Small portion? Again. BACK_THIS_UP_WITH_NUMBERS.
Being bloated, slow and memory hog, evolution is useless. There are other MUAs doing a better job in almost all things.
For me evolution works. Not great, but works. If it doesn't work for you... it is your choice to remove it. Don't take away my -right- to use Evolution, just because you're too lazy to exercises yours. (To remove it)
BTW, once Thunderbird / Lightning get OpenSync/Pilot support, I'll be the first one to dump Evo. Until such time (and as long as KMail remains a usability nightmare [and this from an avid KDE user...]), leave Evolution be.
So there is no point making it a default mailer.
If Fedora users were the mind-less-drones that you consider them to be, they would be using Windows. instead of Linux "Because it there by default" The mere number of non-Evolution users combined with the mere number of KMAIL and/or KDE users on this list makes your post look over simplified and narrow-minded.
- Gilboa
Sex, 2006-12-29 às 17:22 +0000, Leo escreveu:
Evolution may be useful for users need to sync with PDA or connect to an EXCHANGE server. But that is a very small portion. Being bloated, slow and memory hog, evolution is useless. There are other MUAs doing a better job in almost all things.
You obviously are fortunate enough not to have an important enough role in a Microsoft-enabled-lan company, medium size to big.
In fact, it would appear as if your email needs are quite satisfied with gmail, which says a lot :)
If you *only* do email, sure... Evolution is a massive hog. Heck, even the adorable mutt does a better job.
However, as you have meetings, and need to properly reply to invitations, and such other things, even without connecting to the exchange server as I don't (I got to have email forwarded to a more sane server) you will need such kind of integrated features.
I tried Kontact and it seemed yet worse at the time, and integrates badly on the "GNOME way" of the desktop.
Right now I have a series of links in mutt's mail folder in order to access my emails from mutt for when an accident might happen (see how I *don't* trust Evolution even though I use it?)...
If you are unfortunate to work on a Micrsoft-enabled-lan as I do, then you'd appreciate it more.
Rui
On Fri, 2006-12-29 at 15:50 -0500, Saikat Guha wrote:
On Fri, 2006-12-29 at 18:30 +0000, Leo wrote:
- Lyvim Xaphir (2006-12-29 12:41 -0500) said:
BTW the man asked you for proof and you provided none.
Have you not read What Saikat Guha wrote in http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel/46845?
I think you misread my response.
I was pointing out that Evolution is #1 on the fedora-devel list where one would expect to find people who can make an informed decision on which mailer to use.
As such you original claim that "Evolution is useless for most users" is completely baseless, sensationalist and imho, wrong.
You are absolutely right. To bolster our point even further, currently Evo is in the number two place on the kernel mailing list at vger. As far as informed decisions go, I expect the kernel gods to be making those on a regular basis.
So what I think we have here with his 'sensationalist' claims is nothing more than a troll.
LX
On Fri, 2006-12-29 at 21:40 +0000, Leo wrote:
- Saikat Guha (2006-12-29 15:50 -0500) said: ^^^^^^^^^^^
[...]
Have you not read What Saikat Guha wrote in http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel/46845?
I think you misread my response.
I was pointing out that Evolution is #1 on the fedora-devel list where one would expect to find people who can make an informed decision on which mailer to use.
Regarding the fact that Evolution has been in Redhat/Fedora since RH7 or maybe earlier and Thunderbird 1.0 was released at the end of 2004, that #1 does explain something in favor of my claim. *NB* I use neither Evolution nor Thunderbird.
Number one, you are a frakking gmail user, which says enough almost all by itself; second, you sit there trying to promote stupid decisions for an established majority userbase that you have no business dictating to. Go troll somewhere else, find another way to support Micro$haft.
As such you original claim that "Evolution is useless for most users" is completely baseless, sensationalist and imho, wrong.
......
Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com> (GPG Key: 9283AA3F)
LX
Lyvim Xaphir scripst:
Number one, you are a frakking gmail user, which says enough almost all by itself;
and you are not reading headers of his email, which says enough about you.
Matěj
On Fri, 2006-12-29 at 00:14 +1100, Ben Stringer wrote:
Have you confirmed other people have this problem? Evolution is sending email fine for me under FC6. What error do you receive when you try and send?
An irrelevant question with Evolution, which doesn't actually report the errors correctly anyway -- it makes up its own instead of reporting what the server said.
(GNOME bug #248873, filed in 2003. Closed 'NOTABUG' by Ximian crackmonkey but later reopened).
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